Lindsey Buckingham is so rude!!!!!!

[face of glass]

I’m not going to participate into the main topic of this thread because I haven’t the time. But I do agree with what especially Johnny Stew and Sodascouts have said.

This bit is what rubs me the wrong way at this moment:

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
They can go around saying they've been "pushing envelopes" all they want on SYW but I'm sorry I disagree and I've read many a SYW review goon about how "80's" the album sounds so I can't be alone in my thinking of the album as though "good", being a retread.

I’ve read this too. I’d like to know what the reviewers are especially referring to. The tone colours can’t be it, since they are modernistic. Is it certain specific details then, like the “Big Love” recycling in “Miranda” and “Destiny Rules”, or the fact that “Running Through The Garden” originates from the ‘80s, or the percussive guitar in “Everybody Finds Out”? Other than that I can’t find any real reason for the claim.

But no, I don’t believe they’ve really been “pushing the envelope” that much. I’ve stated this before and I state this again; most songs on the album can be traced back to an earlier prototype. “What’s The World Coming To” still follows the formula of “Second Hand News” and “Monday Morning”, “Thrown Down” and “Destiny Rules” are extensions of “Gypsy”, “Say You Will” still sounds like a Christine song, no matter what, “Murrow” still gets some of its inspiration from “I’m So Afraid”, etc. But that’s to be expected by now. I don’t think rock’n’roll has really been doing anything radically new for a good 20-25 years. Fleetwood Mac, in particular, never were a revolutionary force in the development of it. You could say that they were during the Peter Green years, but even then there were contemporaries. Yes, Led Zeppelin did use the approach of “Oh Well” for “Black Dog”, but that’s about it.

Of course it comes down to whether you like SYW that much or not. I personally think that while there are things that are traceable to the history of the band, they have been able to make a lot of them seem fresh again. That’s where Lindsey shines and has always shone. He may not have been progressing in leaps and bounds, but there’s always a hint at something unprecedented, like “Red Rover”. The good artists these days aren’t necessarily trying to be all weird, experimental and inaccessible (because making music like that can be way too easy; instead they’re expanding on the past and getting their inspiration from there.

I mean, I don’t think that the new band members on BTM or Time were adding anything significant to the history of rock and roll. You may want fresh blood into the band, so that the band would change in a more obvious, more radical way. But it won’t work for everyone. During the current line-up I haven’t felt the need for changes, if we’re speaking of studio recordings, because I still think Buckingham and Nicks have something to offer.

If we’re speaking of live performances, then it’s a different matter. But if Mick and John are satisfied with their roles as merely accompanists, then there’s nothing we can do. And yes, the less they display the drama in public the better, at least for my mental health.

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
First of all, even though no one twisted his arm, it was either turn it into a FM project or sit at home and have only him and a few thousand fans listen to it, purchased via his personal website!

Not necessarily.

Let's not forget Aimee Mann or Cyndi Lauper. Neither have record contracts and both release music under their own independent label. Yet, when they release music, it hits the shelves at Best Buy's, Circuit City's, and FYEs. Don't underestimate artists just because they don't have albums coming out under the Warner Bros. stamp of approval. Granted, they may not sell in the millions and have little to no promotion, but word of mouth spreads and they have gold albums in no time.

I promise you that Stevie will have one more somewhat-commercial album and then she'll get the brush-off just like Lindsey did. Shangri-La was a fluke (due in part to VH1) and after the first week, it sank like a stone. We can only hope that she'll consider her own label once her stock diminishes, but somehow I doubt it.

No matter what anyone says though, this thread will continue to seem like an advertisement for someones ridiculous vendetta against Lindsey and his personal feelings.

[diamondsnake]

I think that most of these posts all come down to, who is the most important in the band?

Obviously there is no clear answer to that, but I would say that most of us would agree that no one person dominates the band completely. Even though I still think Lindsey beleives he is in complete control.....

And Lindsey fans, please don't take offense, I am just joking!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
Shangri-La was a fluke (due in part to VH1) and after the first week, it sank like a stone.

You're gonna start thinking I'm picking on you, Dissention, but I have to disagree with this statement too!

In its second week of release, 'TISL' remained in the Top 10, and while its chart position steadily declined from there, it has sold 638,000 copies to date, and was certified gold(*).

"Every Day" was also a Top 20 hit on the Adult Contemporary charts, and "Planets Of The Universe" was a #1 on the Hot Dance/Club Play charts.

Other than Cher, name me one female pop/rock artist in her 50s who's had an album that successful in the current decade.

So it may not have been a success of the Jennifer Lopez or Britney Spears level, but it was most definitely a success... both artistically and commercially.


(* = I had inadvertently typed "platinum," so I've corrected it.)

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
You're gonna start thinking I'm picking on you, Dissention, but I have to disagree with this statement too!

In its second week of release, 'TISL' remained in the Top 10, and while its chart position steadily declined from there, it has sold 638,000 copies to date, and was certified platinum.

"Every Day" was also a Top 20 hit on the Adult Contemporary charts, and "Planets Of The Universe" was a #1 on the Hot Dance/Club Play charts.

Other than Cher, name me one female pop/rock artist in her 50s who's had an album that successful in the current decade.

So it may not have been a success of the Jennifer Lopez or Britney Spears level, but it was most definitely a success... both artistically and commercially.

And - Everyday is still in rotation on airplanes ( I heard it a few months ago on Delta) and I see the video sometimes at places like Circuit City or Sears although I am unsure what station it is - perhaps VH-1. Also, the dance remix of POTU is STILL in heavy rotation at dance parties and in the clubs. I heard it twice in Oct. when I was in New Orleans partying my rear off

In sum and without somewhat of a fluke like Cher's "Believe," I think FM will probably never have a top ten single or a multi-platinum CD of new material. Yet, they still pack em in in the live performances. So, hopefully, that will allow them to continue to make music in the style they like to make it.

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by face of glass
I mean, I don’t think that the new band members on BTM or Time were adding anything significant to the history of rock and roll. You may want fresh blood into the band, so that the band would change in a more obvious, more radical way. But it won’t work for everyone.

Originally posted by trackaghost
The Time and Behind The Mask line-ups mean little to me. You may call me closed minded, but I have a wide taste in music and it just so happens that Bekka and Billy Burnette don't fit in there! Why should I like their music just because they were at one time part of the Mac.

I'm sorry to go off topic again here but I just want it to be known by those that don't know: Billy, Rick & Bekka were not ALLOWED to be themselves in FM. Therefore, it's hard to make your mark in a band when the material you bring to the band is either not used or changed to make it sound like what Mick, John and the relevant marketing people seem to think is "the sound FM fans know and want" (well, hey, thanks for deciding what "everybody" wants guys) and the cherry on top of it all was that those records weren't promoted at all anyways. Yep, REAL fair, all the way around huh?

I'm not saying that they were ever going to change rock and roll as we know it but I don't think it's fair to judge these guys on the few recordings they made during the short time they were in the band as they are generally not good representations of what they usually sound like (IMO).

I can see why many would feel they "didn't fit in FM" but that's because Mick was trying to force them to be something they aren't and that made it worse than if he had just let them be themselves. Of course Dave Mason was allowed to do what he wanted, Dave Walker was not, and so on... I just don't think this "separate rules for separate people" stuff was right, and this of course includes BN but again that's JMHO.

I do respect your opinions though even if some of you still wish to think these things about the "little people" after knowing about this personality stifiling now though OK?

John

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
You're gonna start thinking I'm picking on you, Dissention, but I have to disagree with this statement too!

In its second week of release, 'TISL' remained in the Top 10, and while its chart position steadily declined from there, it has sold 638,000 copies to date, and was certified platinum.

"Every Day" was also a Top 20 hit on the Adult Contemporary charts, and "Planets Of The Universe" was a #1 on the Hot Dance/Club Play charts.

Other than Cher, name me one female pop/rock artist in her 50s who's had an album that successful in the current decade.

So it may not have been a success of the Jennifer Lopez or Britney Spears level, but it was most definitely a success... both artistically and commercially.

Everyday was a huge hit to say the least! I didn't hardly know who Stevie Nicks was back in 2001 and I loved the song. I was so excited when I recognized it on the TISL record when I got into the mac in 2002.

And there is no way that Stevie's success was a fluke! That is insane. We are talking about the woman that has been titled the Queen of Rock and Roll!

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
Not necessarily.

Let's not forget Aimee Mann or Cyndi Lauper. Neither have record contracts and both release music under their own independent label. Yet, when they release music, it hits the shelves at Best Buy's, Circuit City's, and FYEs. Don't underestimate artists just because they don't have albums coming out under the Warner Bros. stamp of approval. Granted, they may not sell in the millions and have little to no promotion, but word of mouth spreads and they have gold albums in no time.

I promise you that Stevie will have one more somewhat-commercial album and then she'll get the brush-off just like Lindsey did. Shangri-La was a fluke (due in part to VH1) and after the first week, it sank like a stone. We can only hope that she'll consider her own label once her stock diminishes, but somehow I doubt it.

No matter what anyone says though, this thread will continue to seem like an advertisement for someones ridiculous vendetta against Lindsey and his personal feelings.

Not to be rude, but do you even like Stevie that much? Everything I have ever read that you post is so negative about her, which is weird because you must like her given the fact that she is on your icon. What's the deal? Is this like a love/hate relationship?

[David]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Not to be rude, but do you even like Stevie that much? Everything I have ever read that you post is so negative about her, which is weird because you must like her given the fact that she is on your icon. What's the deal? Is this like a love/hate relationship?

By your own admission, you didn't know who Stevie Nicks was in 2001 -- two years ago. You're brand new to the fan fold. Just kick back & soak it all in. What you see with dissention, you're going to see with a lot of fans. Longtimers tend to have a lot of varying opinions about Stevie & about Fleetwood Mac, opinions that sometimes seem ambiguous or contradictory to newbies. It would be fair of you to give your own admiration for FM some time to evolve. You may even find yourself ten years from now loving some things about Stevie & really disliking other things about her -- or you may even evolve into a rabid Lindsey Buckingham fan. At this point, you can have no idea how your devotion to FM will evolve. None of us are exactly the same five, ten or twenty years later.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I didn't say that most critics of the concerts are saying they enjoyed Stevie more. You are right, it is about 50/50, however most critics mention that the audience is clearly there to see Stevie which is true because when the average Joe thinks of FM they think of Stevie.

Uh, dude, you're still going to have to show us these articles. See, I've read about a lot of awe at Lindsey's showmanship, while I've also read a lot of comments about Stevie's corpse-like approach to many of the performances. Even judging from postings on the Internet, it seems even some of the folks who go to the concerts for Stevie come away with newfound respect for Lindsey and many say he was more interesting in concert.

I could be wrong, so if you'd like to produce this evidence of which you speak...

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I'm sure both factors had something to do with it (although I dislike that so many of Stevie's "latter-day" songs are dismissed out of hand, simply because fans feel more nostalgic towards the earlier music).

First off, Johnny, I did misread your earlier comment about "career heights." I stand corrected.

Second, dude, this is ground we've covered already. The quality of Bella Donna and The Wild Heart is far superior to Rock a Little, when she could barely sing, The Other Side of the Mirror, ditto, and Street Angel, in which most of the songs simply weren't good. I won't make comments on Shangri La because I haven't heard it enough and a lot of people seem to think it's good. Now, I can tell by reading the lyrics from that album that it still isn't as good as the stuff she wrote earlier, and perhaps that is a bit of nostalgia creeping in. But when it comes to Rock a Little, Street Angel and even those three new songs that appeared on the Timespace compilation, the stuff was mostly bad and it has nothing to do with nostalgia.

In 1985 I was till a huge Stevie fan, yet I generally still didn't care for Rock a Little. I actually like a few songs in Rock a Little and Mirror, but I just can't listen to them much because of the voice. Interestingly, Blue Eyes was my favorite song off Mirror, and I didn't realize till years later that it was a Johnny Cash song. Now I have the Man in Black's version and I prefer that.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Other Side of the Mirror is an absolute masterpeice if you ask me!

Uh?

I loved her single for The Chain, Paper Doll. I also really enjoyed her stuff on Behind the Mask and many songs off Street Angel.

double uh?

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Not to be rude, but do you even like Stevie that much? Everything I have ever read that you post is so negative about her, which is weird because you must like her given the fact that she is on your icon. What's the deal? Is this like a love/hate relationship?

I've been a fan for almost twenty years, I think that I'm entitled to express my opinions about the Mac and Mama Nicks. It makes me no less of a fan.

I fail to see how my commenting on the business aspect of their music makes me less of a fan. That's a tad ludicrous. When I make statements about record sales and corporate labels, how does that make me not a Stevie fan? In no way does it comment on the music. But, David said it much better than I have, so I'll leave it at that.

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Everyday was a huge hit to say the least!

Every Day did alright, but it certainly wasn't a huge hit at all. It should never have been released as the first single, but that's a different thread.

Originally posted by johnnystew
You're gonna start thinking I'm picking on you, Dissention, but I have to disagree with this statement too!

In its second week of release, 'TISL' remained in the Top 10, and while its chart position steadily declined from there, it has sold 638,000 copies to date, and was certified gold(*).

"Every Day" was also a Top 20 hit on the Adult Contemporary charts, and "Planets Of The Universe" was a #1 on the Hot Dance/Club Play charts.

Other than Cher, name me one female pop/rock artist in her 50s who's had an album that successful in the current decade.

So it may not have been a success of the Jennifer Lopez or Britney Spears level, but it was most definitely a success... both artistically and commercially.

Well, Johnny, if we were talking WISYA, I'd be in big trouble!

Let me explain what I meant by fluke, though:

There was barely any promotion for TISL outside of the VH1 promotion. That was something new that hadn't been done before and it opened a lot of doors for the album. If it hadn't been on VH1 like that, I doubt that it would have done as well as it did.

It was INCREDIBLY successful for an artist like Stevie. INCREDIBLY successful. However, I just believe that without the VH1 promotion, it wouldn't have done too hot. That's a fluke, IMO. (But the success of the Planets remix was not because of Stevie, it was because of Tracy Young, but we've already wrestled over that before!!)

I just don't see her solo projects having much more longevity after the next one. Especially with the current state of music.

But then again...

Stores like Borders and Barnes and Noble are now shying away from heavily promoting artists like Beyonce, 50 Cent, and Hootchie Spears in their stores. Instead, they are taking established and adult artists like Babs, the Mac, Springsteen, and Bette Midler and pushing them. Instead of putting hip artists on the main shelves, they're stocking it with the good stuff and pushing the crap into the alphabetized racks. The tactic has worked wonders, though. Midler's album is her biggest hit in YEARS. Her last album debuted at #49 and her new one is in the top twenty and has been doing amazingly well. There was no promotion except for what they're doing in these stores.

So, I think the way an album sells by older artists is due to how it's marketed.

Get what I mean?

[dissention]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Uh?

double uh?

I second that sentiment.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
And - Everyday is still in rotation on airplanes ( I heard it a few months ago on Delta) and I see the video sometimes at places like Circuit City or Sears although I am unsure what station it is - perhaps VH-1. Also, the dance remix of POTU is STILL in heavy rotation at dance parties and in the clubs. I heard it twice in Oct. when I was in New Orleans partying my rear off

Circuit City is a BIG Mac fan.

The one in my area has an audio visual room where the speakers are as big as my ass and the TV touches the ceiling. It has glass doors and padded walls, but anyways...They BLAST the Dance DVD and the Red Rocks DVD everytime I'm in there. They must have radar for Mac fans.