Lindsey Buckingham is so rude!!!!!!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
(Lindsey) was never forced to turn it into a FM record. He chose to do that.

Not arguing, Dissention, but I wanted to point out that, while Lindsey wasn't literally "forced" into turning his solo album into a Fleetwood Mac record, it was met with a great deal of apathy from the record company... which wouldn't be too reassuring, I'm sure.

Despite the fact that Lindsey's choice to re-work it as a Fleetwood Mac album had the potential to bring his music to a much larger audience (therefore resulting in more money in his pocket), I still honestly don't feel that that was his total motivation.

If he didn't really want to spend a year arranging and producing Stevie's songs, and if he didn't want to collaborate with her in the studio, he could have easily released 'Gift Of Screws' on an independent label.

I should hope that anyone who regards Lindsey as an artist, would give him more credit than to believe he just "did it for the money." (By the way, so there isn't any confusion, that's not directed at you, Dissention, or anyone here... it's just a general opinion.)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Nikolaj
Dissention -- you and gldstwmn and JohnnyStew always make me glad i read these messages

Wow... thank you, Nikolaj! I really appreciate that compliment.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
He was never forced to turn it into a FM record. He chose to do that. And record sales don't matter to many music fans as long as the music is great.

That is not exactly true. While I do not believe anyone can force LB to do anything, I do think the way things played out he was somewhat forced to make "Gift of Screws" into a FM record. According to him, the record company, for whatever reason (changing of the guard, etc.), was not interested in him solo. Interestingly, they suddenly were interested in his same solo stuff once Fleetwood Mac got on board. I honestly do not think that they would have been interested from a commercial point of view if that FM did not include Stevie.

In any event, I love LB. I think he is brilliant. It is just he cannot sell his great product in any commercially significant number to the masses like Stevie has a history of being able to do live and recorded. So, I think it is great they are "back together" because we get more music released in a public forum.

Plus, I think the members of FM like being together. I think CM likes being with the members of FM, but does not want to tour. After all, she offered to record with them, but not tour. For her to do that, she must like them on some level.

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
The answer is different depending on what era one is referring to.

After Lindsey left in 1987, it seems (from Stevie's more recent comments to the media) that she stayed because she felt a loyalty to Fleetwood Mac.

Around the time of 'The Dance,' I think it's safe to say she returned to the band for the chance at mending fences, and returning with them to the "glory days" of their popularity.

Currently, I'd imagine... again, based on comments made... that she's with them, because she enjoys being a part of a band (even when her solo career was at its heights, she often said how much she loved being a member of Fleetwood Mac), and because of the chance to work with Lindsey again, in a situation somewhat like their aborted 'Buckingham Nicks' days.

Except maybe for the "dark days" of her Klonopin addiction, Stevie has always had nothing but praise for Fleetwood Mac and its members, and has always talked about how much she loves being a part of such a great band.

So I'm comfortable in saying that that's why she's with the band today, and not because of the chance to make a few extra dollars.

By the way, John, I don't want you to think that I was dismissing your opinion, or anything like that.
I have a great amount of respect for you and your point of view... I just wanted to explore the other side of the "they're doing it for money" point of view.

Not upset here, I knew that's all you were doing Johnny Stew and I do thank you for the answer as I was honestly just asking because I admit that I don't generally read interviews as such so thanks for that answer.

You probably are right in what you disseminated from her quotes in this subject but I still get the feeling of doubt that, now that the "klonopin days" are over, if LB did leave and Mick got new members and went on, she'd still "feel a loyalty to FM" THEN and stay with the band but I could be wrong. As it's quite clear to me that the days of FM getting new members is long gone, then I guess we'll never really know for sure. Anyways Johnny Stew, I respect your posts as well, you always have realistic ways of looking at things which I highly enjoy reading.

I would like to hear some opinions though as to why some feel that there HAS to be a "leader/figurehead" in "bands"? Maybe I just prefer the team approach but I would like to know why it's considered better for someone to stay in a band and "dictate" what goes on rather than just going solo and letting a band be a band. I'm honestly just curious is all.

John

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by diamondsnake
I really don't beleive this is Lindsey's group because when it ...most people are going to the concerts to see Stevie and most people are buying the album to hear Stevie, as most critics have said in different articles.


Uh, dude, you're going to have to show us these articles in which "most critics" are saying this. From what I've seen, it's been pretty much 50/50 in terms of the critics' preference for Lindsey or Stevie.

If it was Lindsey's group and he was this genious then why was he forced to turn his solo record into a fleetwood mac album? because just him alone isn't good enough. no one would buy it, other then the big fans...

There is some truth to that, but Stevie solo ain't exactly "what I seem to touch these days turns to gold" anymore.

Furthermore, I'm actually kind of happy Christine is gone. It leaves more room for Lindsey and Stevie. And even though I don't like a lot of Stevie's newer stuff, a lot of it is still better than Christine's most recent stuff. Everything on Time was pretty much disposable and Temporary One was gag-inducing.

Christine wrote some wonderful songs earlier. But a lot of the stuff, lyrically, was vapid and uninteresting. Her keyboard and harmony contributions, however, were intrinsic to the Fleetwood Mac sound. Even if at times I wish she had relied more on piano than keyboard patches.

I truly believe today's Mac exists primarily because Lindsey wanted back in. If he hadn't returned, Stevie would have stayed away too. So no Mac.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Currently, I'd imagine... again, based on comments made... that she's with them, because she enjoys being a part of a band (even when her solo career was at its heights, she often said how much she loved being a member of Fleetwood Mac), and because of the chance to work with Lindsey again, in a situation somewhat like their aborted 'Buckingham Nicks' days.

That's an interesting aside you toss in there. Stevie's career was "at its heights" after The Dance because of The Dance. She and her manager were very clever to release Enchanted, go on tour and record a new album. She therefore deserved whatever success came her way at that point. I'm not crazy about Shangri La, but I concede she made all the right moves at that point (to the point of following the Santana Supernatural formula to some extent). And for people who love the album, well, that's just greatness. But I seriously doubt she would have had as much success without The Dance.

And why the The Dance? Lindsey. Which only makes it more frustrating for us Lindsey fans that he wasn't more marketing savvy right after The Dance.

Lastly, Diamondsnake, there is no such thing as the "voice" of FM. If you truly believe Stevie is that, you simply don't know enough about the history of the band. There is no "voice." There is a "sound," which changed over the years. As I see it, FM has had three major "sound" stages: Peter Green, Bob Welch and Lindsey. And the band exists today because of Lindsey.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
That is not exactly true. While I do not believe anyone can force LB to do anything, I do think the way things played out he was somewhat forced to make "Gift of Screws" into a FM record. According to him, the record company, for whatever reason (changing of the guard, etc.), was not interested in him solo

Strand, there remains some ambiguity around the statements he has made about that. Read them closely and you'll see what I mean. Lindsey is a master at leaving things unsaid withouth having to outright lie. I've seen that in later news reports about the tour and the album, the story that the label "rejected" Gift of Screws has been reported as fact, (probably because the reporters read Lindsey's earlier comments) but I don't believe that has been established. If Lindsey wanted to release Gift of Screws, he would have found a way. There are plenty of labels who would have picked him up if he had found a way out of the Warner contract. He really didn't want to.

Lindsey thinks this music he's making is so good that he believes it would have been a sin to not make it widely available. He obviously feared another solo album would sell at about the same level as Cradle, and I don't think his ego could take it. However, had he leveraged The Dance's success and released the damn thing around the same time as Stevie released Enchanted, he could have parlayed the FM tour's success into a pretty good reception for his solo efforts.

[strandinthewind]

Carne - I know. Although I am happy with the results of SYW as a FM project and SN's added vocals (particularly the song "Miranda"), I, too, wish LB would have released GOS as a solo project. I think this mostly because I would have rather SYW been more of a group effort instead of for the most part, LB coming in with an already completed solo project that only John and Mick had worked partially on and Stevie being on tour and coming in for the last year or so of production. But, in the end, I am happy with SYW. I just hope the next record (he says hopefully) is more of a group effort.

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
The only reason he chose to turn it into a FM record is because they would reject it if it was a sioo record!

SYW didn't exactly flop. Peacekeeper was on the top ten of adult contemp. for about a week or two and then I never heard it again! And Say You Will was in the top twenty for a few months andf I heard it plenty of times. I don't know how often you heard the different singles though.

And obviously Lindsey is the only reason Stevie joined again, but if there was no Stevie there would be no Mac album and tour either... So when it all comes down to it, they are equally important to FM happening this time around.

That's exactly it: he chose to turn it into a Mac record, just as he did with TITN. We can debate it all we want, but no one twisted Lindsey's arm and said "You MUST turn this into a Mac record!!" He had a variety of options available, such as releasing it independently (lord knows he has the cash to do so and it isn't that expensive). However, he chose to turn it into a group effort for whatever reason, be it for the money or the creative aspects. I suspect both.

And SYW was a flop. Certainly not a flop on the scale that Thrown Down and SYHA will flop, but it was a flop. Peacekeeper was riding high on the adult contemp. charts for a lot longer than a couple of weeks and it was the only new single so far to hit the Hot 100 chart on Billboard, quite the feat for a new Mac song.

Like I said, her backing vocals weren't THAT good that her contributions made it the hit it is.

[David]

Originally posted by CarneVaca Christine wrote some wonderful songs earlier. But a lot of the stuff, lyrically, was vapid and uninteresting. Her keyboard and harmony contributions, however, were intrinsic to the Fleetwood Mac sound. Even if at times I wish she had relied more on piano than keyboard patches.[/B]

Do you mean acoustic piano? Which "keyboard patches" do you feel would have made better parts if played on a piano? I think the early piano take of "Never Make Me Cry" was fantastic, better than the muted guitar thing they finalized. There's less & less of that as you track the albums through the years, with a couple of notable exceptions, like "Love Shines" & "Roll With Me, Henry."

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I agree. And not only that but it practically a duet between them because after the first line Stevie sings through the entire song, not just on backup...

I just don't see where Peacekeeper is practically a duet. She sings back-up on it, that's it. She's not the primary voice on the song, Lindsey's voice is.

[sodascouts]

Lot to reply to here!

I've noticed that Lindsey seems eager to take advantage of Christine's departure, but is that a bad thing? She ditched them and it's pretty harsh to blame Lindsey for wanting to move on. And "hate" is a strong word and not to be tossed around lightly, IMHO.

Yes, Lindsey enjoys having more control, being able to have more of his songs on the album, being able to play more of his songs live. Of course! He's human, isn't he? What do you expect him to feel? And you know what, I bet Stevie is happy to get more of her songs on the album, too. That's why she went solo originally, remember? So unless she's so distraught about Christine leaving that she's unable to enjoy having more of her songs available to the public (fat chance that!) she also can see positives from Christine leaving. I doubt she lies weeping in bed clutching Chris' picture every night. In fact, as for them being "best friends" Stevie might find it nice to say that, but (and I'm sorry I can't quote the source, my memory is not that hot) I remember reading that Christine hadn't spoken to ANY of the band members on any more than a perfunctory professional level for YEARS. At least she sent them flowers and a note before Columbus. From Mick's bubbly "Did you see the note?!" to Lindsey, it sounded like something unexpected and unusual. And Lindsey didn't spit out, "Flowers from that dried up hag? Who needs 'em!" (OK, I realize I'm being a bit ridiculous there, but you get my point.) Instead, he agreed with Mick she was a "class act."

I'll be honest and admit that sometimes I too wonder what went down when Christine left. It seems to me that it wasn't all champagne and roses.... but as I said earlier, "hatred" is pretty extreme. I don't get from his carefully tactful and respectful comments on her departure intense hatred!

Ah, and what to say about the endless Lindsey v. Stevie debate? I love them both the same, lol. And I know many won't agree with me, but I believe that both Lindsey and Stevie are integral to the success of Fleetwood Mac. Would Fleetwood Mac flounder without Stevie? Yes. Perhaps it wouldn't get backing, although Time did. But look at Behind the Mask. Not that it's wretched, but Lindsey was SORELY missed. And many members of this "general public" that are supposedly "only there for Stevie" decided not to buy it, or attend the concerts. Could it be Lindsey's absence had something to do with this? I see no other explanation, so how can the theory that Stevie does it all be correct?

I will also admit Lindsey desperately wants his material to be WIDELY heard and that is why he didn't take measures to release GOS on his own. It wasn't due to self-sacrificial devotion to FM, lol. But "forced" is another strong word I wouldn't apply to the situation. I do believe he would have quickly released another solo album the record company had shown interest, however. He didn't "hold back" for Fleetwood Mac's sake. However, he didn't HAVE to come back to FM either. The man is not hurtin' for money. I am eternally grateful that he did so anyway!

I really don't see a need to polarize and claim one IS Fleetwood Mac, and that one is carrying the other. It seems some people can only build up one member by tearing the other down. I think both soar on their own merits, which admittedly are different but both are necessary in their own ways.

I am ecstatic that BN chose to once again join Fleetwood Mac, and find the idea of ditching them (as if!) to "move forward" with others who are probably less talented (who plays guitar better than Lindsey Buckingham?!) appalling. But I realize that's all subjective.

Wow, I really wrote a book! But I thought I would chine in with my $200

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Well Stevie is the voice of FM because it is so unique and she has my favorite out of all there voices, but as far as Studio albums go at least Christine's voice is the purest and sweetest of the voices. And I still stand by my opinon that today at least, Lindsey is not a great singer. Have you listened to some of the live downloads from this tour? He is just screaming if you ask me. And I never knew Christine had so much trouble singing live.... The live concert videos I have seen show her in top form, at least.

By the same token, we could say that Stevie isn't a great singer. She warbled and screamed her way through the RAL tour, seemed like she was singing through a tin can on the Timespace tour, and croaked her way through the TISL tour.

My advice would be to search out more bootlegs from various tours. They have all had their off-tours. Don't just judge a singer by a few downloads. Bootlegs aren't necessarily representative of someone's ability. Christine sounded quite flat and monotone through many tours herself.

And no one is the voice of FM.

[David]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
That's an interesting aside you toss in there. Stevie's career was "at its heights" after The Dance because of The Dance.

I think Johnny probably meant the days of "Bella Donna" & "The Wild Heart." The mild success she had with "Shangri-La" was nothing compared with those heady days of the early 1980s. And even during those days, Stevie for the most part always talked about how cool it was to be a part of a great rock band, & how she preferred it to doing her solo tours. She was always one to respond strongly to the glamor of the situation, & for her being in Fleetwood Mac meant -- as she said a lot -- riding in to a big outdoor concert in a helicopter, like the US Festival, or jetsetting from America to Europe & back with Fleetwood Mac & its entourage.

She ate it up, & she probably still does.

[dissention]

Nancy, that was the best post in this long thread. Let's all give her a round of applause, folks!