Has Stevie's songwriting gone downhill?

[trackaghost]

A few people on the Rumours board were saying that they thought that Stevie hasn't written a decent song (bar Gyspy) since Bella Donna and any good tunes that she has released since then (ie Sorcerer, If You Ever Did Believe etc, etc) actually originated from the 1970s anyway.
There was also talk of Stevie only being as good as her producers, and not proving herself outside of what Lindsey does for her.

I personally love a good many records Stevie has written over the years that don't have their roots in the 1970s (Rooms On Fire, Blue Denim, Illume to name a few), and many of which I actually consider to be among her best.

I'm also fed up with Lindsey getting all the credit for Stevie's best songs. I've heard the demo for Sara and that was genius before Lindsey put his magic touch on it.

Can't we give Stevie some credit for being an amazing songwriter at long last?
What do you guys think?

[gldstwmn]

I think Stevie has written some great songs since the Rumours era. Rooms On Fire, Blue Denim, Juliet, Space Needle, Freedom and Trouble In Shangri La are, IMO great songs. In some cases, I think Stevie's various producers actually hindered the performance. Case in point: Smile At You. Exception to this rule: Jimmy Iovine. I think he was an excellent fit with Stevie's work. With two strong individuals, however, there was bound to be a breaking point.

[dissention]

I don't think Stevie's songwriting has gone downhill at all. I do think that in the eighties she put out a lot of *bad* stuff and in the nineties she put out the noise pollution that is Street Angel, but she's recovered very well in recent years. I mean, c'mon, the lyrics to the song TISL are among the BEST she has ever written; they're astounding. This sin't to say she hasn't put out some clunkers; she has and Not Make Believe can attest to that. But the good far outweigh the bad. I think it's ludicrous to say that she hasn't written anything great since '81. If a song like Doing the Best That I Can or Sable On Blonde came out in the seventies, the same people who say they don't think those songs are great would be saying they ARE great.

[Hippocampus]

I suppose it's going to be hard to find objectivity on this board but I don't think Stevie's writing has ever gone downhill.

The general consensus is that she had bad phases in her career but even during those times, I think there have always been great songs. And she's been writing consistently great tunes ever since Street Angel (Twisted, Sweet Girl, TISL album etc...).

[Siri Ruane]

Blue Denim, Fall From Grace, Everybody Finds Out, ect. DETAILS! If anything, she's gotten better.

[DeeGeMe]

I think Stevie's songwriting has "matured" over the years. I was blown away by some of the lyrics on TISL and I personally liked all of the new material on SYW. Sure, she's written some clunkers in her day, but what songwriter hasn't? She's prolific and when you write that many songs, there are bound to be some bad ones in the bunch. And isn't bad subjective? There are songs that I adore that I'm sure some of you Mac/Stevie fans out there hate, and some that I hate that you love.

[EveryHour]

Originally posted by DeeGeMe
I think Stevie's songwriting has "matured" over the years. I was blown away by some of the lyrics on TISL and I personally liked all of the new material on SYW. Sure, she's written some clunkers in her day, but what songwriter hasn't? She's prolific and when you write that many songs, there are bound to be some bad ones in the bunch. And isn't bad subjective? There are songs that I adore that I'm sure some of you Mac/Stevie fans out there hate, and some that I hate that you love.

AMEN!!!

I'm tired of people saying this song or that song is awful, terrible, sucks, etc., when it's really that they just don't care for it. It can actually be hurtful when Stevie means as much as she does to some of us. Whether a song moves you or not, she has clearly poured her heart into each and every one of them. I personally am a fan of all of those supposed "clunkers" (The Nightmare has grown to be one of my favorite songs on Rock A Little). I feel that most of the time with Stevie, you either 'get it' or you don't. Much of her music is not commercial or widely appealing, and no one should wish it was so. As a sidebar, I know that in general (not pertaining to Stevie songs) there are a lot of songs that I personally don't think are really GREAT songs, but it doesn't mean ya can't like them! (Admit it, you know what I mean!)
As far as her talent...most of her completely solo demos are chill-inducing, and I think that's all that needs to be said.

[Johnny Stew]

This is definitely a topic that causes a lot of debate!
Personally, I tend to prefer her current work.

Don't get me wrong, there's no denying the power of "Landslide," "Silver Springs," et al., but I've always been more interested in the now as opposed to the then.
I also tend to look more at Stevie's entire body of work, as opposed to an album-by-album basis.

I've enjoyed the growth and maturity in her lyrics over the years. And while some of the earlier songs might be a bit more relatable for the masses, there's an added depth in her recent material that really catches my fancy.

She's always written from the heart... she's always written very confessionally... and she's always written in a very unique way.
And she continues to do so to this day.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by DeeGeMe
Sure, she's written some clunkers in her day, but what songwriter hasn't?

I agree wholeheartedly.

As I've pointed out in the past, Stevie has released over 130 songs throughout her career, and truly only about a half-dozen of those can be considered out & out "stinkers" (though even then, it's a matter of opinion)... and that is not a bad batting-average at all!

[cliffdweller]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
I think Stevie has written some great songs since the Rumours era. Rooms On Fire, Blue Denim, Juliet, Space Needle, Freedom and Trouble In Shangri La are, IMO great songs. In some cases, I think Stevie's various producers actually hindered the performance. Case in point: Smile At You. Exception to this rule: Jimmy Iovine. I think he was an excellent fit with Stevie's work. With two strong individuals, however, there was bound to be a breaking point.

I agree. Jimmy Iovine was the perfect producer for Stevie. Too bad they had to get romantically involved and ruined such a great partnership. I also agree that Stevie has written some really great stuff post-Rumours, I happen to love the Phoenix Four as well as her newly written stuff on TISL-- "Fall From Grace" is just utter greatness. Another testament to Stevie's songwriting ability is that her demos, (before Lindsey gets his hands on them), are usually really good. Lindsey is definitely a wizard in the studio but Stevie's skeletal material is really good so he usually already has a good melody to work with. Lindsey being the anal retentive master of embellishments that he is, delivers the finished product but Stevie comes up with the lyrics and basic song structure. Sometimes I think Lindsey is given too much credit for Stevie's songwriting greatness, it's irritating.

[David]

Originally posted by trackaghost
A few people on the Rumours board were saying that they thought that Stevie hasn't written a decent song (bar Gyspy) since Bella Donna and any good tunes that she has released since then (ie Sorcerer, If You Ever Did Believe etc, etc) actually originated from the 1970s anyway.

I think Stevie is still a really good songwriter who has always had this knack for wrapping her vocal style so intriguingly around her free-form lyrics. "Illume" is a new example of that art, & it's as pleasurable as her older material. I love her work on her "Street Angel" album because it seems blessedly devoid of that showoffy quality that marred some of her earlier solo albums. The "Street Angel" material just seems as if all pretense is dropped & she's there, older & more resigned to her advancing age (& all artists tackle that theme).

I'm also fed up with Lindsey getting all the credit for Stevie's best songs. I've heard the demo for Sara and that was genius before Lindsey put his magic touch on it.

Her demo of "Sara"? The only demo of "Sara" I've ever heard is one where she's playing the piano -- possibly to a click track -- & singing. I wouldn't exactly call it a work of genius, but it certainly is heartfelt & breezily melodic. A lot of people keep calling the "cleaning lady" recording a demo, but it is not. It is Fleetwood Mac. Anyone can plainly hear Mick's brushes, John's bass, Stevie's tack piano & Lindsey's layers of acoustic guitar all over it -- a bunch of the same instrumental & vocal tracks, in fact, that were ultimately included on the album cut. It is "Sara" in the making at the Village Recorder, Studio D, & it's certainly a Buckingham production, for better or worse.

Bottom line: In my opinion, Stevie's still a really good songwriter. She's no Elvis Costello, but she never was -- then again, how many people are?

[David]

Originally posted by cliffdweller
I agree. Jimmy Iovine was the perfect producer for Stevie.

But wasn't Jimmy really just a case of mostly invisible production? He filled the room with session players who had the savvy to blend smoothly with one another -- guys like Russ Kunkel, Bob Glaub, David Adelstein, Jeff Porcaro -- & basically just let them all record live. Jimmy's approach was far more translucent, you might say, in the studio with Stevie than Lindsey's opacity, which sometimes seemed self-conscious but which would frequently build magnificent castles of sound seemingly out of thin air, as one review put it. When it came to producing Stevie, Lindsey & Jimmy just had two entirely different approaches. I think Stevie benefited from both at various times: on some occasions she required a very invasive hand to generate musical ideas into a track, & at other times, you could just stand her in front of a mic, count in, & let her & the band take off.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by David
Bottom line: In my opinion, Stevie's still a really good songwriter. She's no Elvis Costello, but she never was -- then again, how many people are?

What I wouldn't give to hear Brilliant Mistake live sometime...sigh. On the other hand, Pump It up is no literary masterpiece.

[darklinensuit]

So many great songs have been released since Bella Donna, particularly the masterpiece that is TWH album.

- Jake

[DeeGeMe]

Originally posted by cliffdweller
Sometimes I think Lindsey is given too much credit for Stevie's songwriting greatness, it's irritating.

Amen, my friend! Having heard a lot of Stevie's raw demos, you get a real idea of how much Lindsey brought to the table, so to speak, and while I will not say that he hasn't added anything to her music, it's not like he's the end all and be all who made Stevie great either.