Stevie's everywhere except in the studio.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

It doesn't seem to be Lindsey's production work on Stevie's songs that she had a problem with, Gerald. She told Performing Songwriter in 2003, that her songs are "100 percent more terrific after Lindsey works on them." Now, she could have been speaking in generalities, but I don't think she would have paid him that compliment in the same way right after they'd finished 'Say You Will,' if she were seriously unhappy with the production work on the songs they'd just completed.

She talked to Performing Songwriter before the tour. At that point she was saying more flattering things about the album. AFTER the tour, she did say she wasn't happy with the album or the time they spent producing it.

You can certainly sequence an album from out-of-state. My point is, if the parties are in disagreement. the one who is in Los Angeles doing the work on finishing the album is probably the one who will have the most say over it. Mick has said in the past that since John and Stevie are the ones who are present the least, they are the ones with the least say. You credit Lindsey with always getting his way (which I don't think he did on SYW at all) as it being because Stevie loses their fights. But everyone knows he puts in the most hours. That's the way he wants it. He puts in the time because he wants the control. if other people don't want it as much, that's what they get. If is because he's such a tyrant or because others don't have the production commitment?

If you want to win a sequencing battle with him, maybe you should be there when the album is being sequenced. If you want control over the finishing touches finalized before the album is distributed to the public, BE THERE when the finishing touches are being made. You think that sequencing is just making a list with the song order on it. But we don't know what it entails. We don't know who has to approve that list. I certainly think there's a listening party with record execs before the albums are actually made, with the final running sequence in place. If Lindsey's in there pushing his view as to why the album should begin the way it does and there's no one else there saying, "No we need to grab them with a more commercial song first. Let's start with the single ..." then Lindsey is going to have influence that the absent parties don't have.

Then too, talking about Say You Will as the album title == they made many decisions that we don't know about, where maybe Stevie's preference DID prevail. So, just because the known arguments went to Lindsey in your view (I don't think the double album argument DID go to him) doesn't mean that he always got his way. Maybe there were arguments over other things like CD title (or the name of the next tour, "Unleashed" or whether or not they would take new publicity photos for that tour) that she won.

Destiny Rules was edited and presented in a way to create drama, like a reality tv show does. It doesn't tell the full story of the relationship. It didn't cover all the conflicts and victories that each party had, I'm sure.

At any rate since you're sure that Stevie is so onboard with an album, I'm surprised that you're arguing about how oppressive it was to record SYW for her. To me, you're explaining why she is NOT onboard for a new album, not the opposite.

Michele

[secondhandchain]

If Stevie was praying to the commercial Gods for the song "Say you Will", she didn't pray hard enough. That song sounds like a 2nd grader wrote it. It has a note range of about 3 notes.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by michelej1

She talked to Performing Songwriter before the tour. At that point she was saying more flattering things about the album. AFTER the tour, she did say she wasn't happy with the album or the time they spent producing it.

Before the tour, Lindsey told the press that Stevie was "seeing part of this record through some dark colours right now -- only because towards the end we had some conflicts about running order and some other things, and she hasn't quite been able to come out the other end and say, 'Wow, this is really something!'"

So I don't think it mattered, timing-wise, that her more flattering comments were made before the tour. She was presumably still angry when she talked to Performing Songwriter. And I do still think that, overall, she was pleased with the production of her songs -- just not pleased with the battles that followed.

Originally Posted by michelej1

You can certainly sequence an album from out-of-state. My point is, if the parties are in disagreement. the one who is in Los Angeles doing the work on finishing the album is probably the one who will have the most say over it. Mick has said in the past that since John and Stevie are the ones who are present the least, they are the ones with the least say. You credit Lindsey with always getting his way (which I don't think he did on SYW at all) as it being because Stevie loses their fights. But everyone knows he puts in the most hours. That's the way he wants it. He puts in the time because he wants the control. if other people don't want it as much, that's what they get. If is because he's such a tyrant or because others don't have the production commitment?

Hey, I make no bones about the fact that Lindsey puts in more actual physical time in the studio than anyone else in the band does. But I still see it as their album -- not just his -- and I feel they should all have an equal say, whether they're sitting next to him or calling from their hotel room.

Originally Posted by michelej1

At any rate since you're sure that Stevie is so onboard with an album, I'm surprised that you're arguing about how oppressive it was to record SYW for her. To me, you're explaining why she is NOT onboard for a new album, not the opposite.

Quite honestly, I think the only reason she's on board for an album, is Christine. Stevie & Lindsey seem to be in a better place now, but I don't think that alone would ever be enough to sway her. Especially since that could all easily go south.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

So I don't think it mattered, timing-wise, that her more flattering comments were made before the tour. She was presumably still angry when she talked to Performing Songwriter. And I do still think that, overall, she was pleased with the production of her songs -- just not pleased with the battles that followed.

In 2009 the Sunday Express interview said:

By the time of Fleetwood Mac’s last tour, 2003’s Say You Will, Stevie’s relationship with Buckingham had become so fraught that, unless he treated her better this time around, she threatened to walk away “so fast that palm tree tops will fall on his head”.

Now, she says the underlying problem was how much she hated the Say You Will album.

“It was five years ago now so I can say I didn’t like it at all; I didn’t like making it, I didn’t like the songs, so that tour was very hard for me.”

On a Greatest Hits tour, however, there is no new material to quibble over.

“Doing all the very famous material is actually more fun,” insists this born entertainer. “It’s been a breath of fresh air for us to not have to worry about trying to sell [new] songs.”

***
With five platinum-selling solo records to her name, Stevie is easily the most successful member of Fleetwood Mac. Wasn’t she tempted to walk away during Say You Will?

“Well, I’m a peacemaker and I didn’t want us to break up because the music didn’t go my way. If I’ve learned nothing else in my 61 years it is that four years down the line you’re over it.” She sees the remaining foursome touring for another seven or eight years.

I think she had a problem with the SONGS and the MUSIC.

As far as it being a band's album, then you need to act like you're part of the band and be part of the process. When you're on vacation, you just don't get as much of a say.

We don't know what the sequencing fight was. We know what the sequence is and from the way the album starts off, it seems that Lindsey got his way, but we actually don't know. It's a conclusion we make because of the first 3 songs. No one thinks that Stevie would have chosen those to lead the album. So, that's our assumption. Still, if the first two songs were Lindsey's idea, it doesn't mean the entire 18 songs were sequenced his way. Even the finished sequence can be part of a compromise. Maybe that's why RTTG and Silver Girl are back to back. Maybe that wasn't Lindsey's idea. They haven't actually talked about the sequencing fight for us to know WHAT it was, whose views were what.

Michele

[michelej1]

I think this is the longest description of the sequencing conflict we've ever gotten below, as vague as it is. It doesn't indicate that she had no say in the end sequence outcome. The fact that it's an awful track listing and that she doesn't like it may be the inconsistent result of compromise, just as easily as it could be one person getting everything he wanted over the other:

"There were some problems with the track-listing near the end", confides the guitarist, now 53. "Stevie was in Hawaii on vacation while I was in Los Angeles trying to master the album, and we got into some over-the-phone conflicts. It's been hard for Stevie to feel good about what we've accomplished, and I really hope she will at some point. She's yet to say 'Good work on my songs, Lindsey.' "

Another interview, sounds like they worked it out together, though the process was painful:

Buckingham is clearly proud of what he brought to "Say You Will." But he sounded peeved that, while the rest of the band went to Hawaii on vacation, he had to remain behind to complete mixing and sequencing the album.

"Well, somebody had to finish the record!" he said. "So that (process) went through a whole series of political spasms and not-very-pleasant phone conversations. But we got there."

Now you will recall that round of pre-tour interviews where Lindsey was bleating she never thanked him several times and Stevie was going, "Oh, did he say that? Of course I thank him?" And she said complimentary things then, but then after the tour was over, she confessed she hated the album.

Michele

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by michelej1

In 2009 the Sunday Express interview said:

I think she had a problem with the SONGS and the MUSIC.

I don't think I've ever read that interview, so I concede that I was wrong about her feelings regarding the music on the album. Although -- and I know this is just nit-picking -- she didn't say which songs she didn't like or if it was specifically her songs she was unhappy with. She could very well have been referring to songs like "Murrow," "Come" (even Lindsey has joked about her distaste for that song) and "Red Rover."
(Which could explain why she's not singing on any of those tracks.)

Originally Posted by michelej1

We don't know what the sequencing fight was. We know what the sequence is and from the way the album starts off, it seems that Lindsey got his way, but we actually don't know. It's a conclusion we make because of the first 3 songs. No one thinks that Stevie would have chosen those to lead the album. So, that's our assumption.

Lindsey said (and I wish I could remember in which interview) that it was Stevie's desire to bury the album's heavier songs later in the album, but that he wanted them up front. So it's definitely more than an assumption.
But, yes, you're right that we don't know if any of the rest of the sequencing was born out of compromise.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I don't think I've ever read that interview, so I concede that I was wrong about her feelings regarding the music on the album. Although -- and I know this is just nit-picking -- she didn't say which songs she didn't like or if it was specifically her songs she was unhappy with. She could very well have been referring to songs like "Murrow," "Come" (even Lindsey has joked about her distaste for that song) and "Red Rover."
(Which could explain why she's not singing on any of those tracks.)

I would think that if she liked her own SYW songs, she'd have mentioned that, as she has done when she has talked about the Tusk album, by distinguishing hers and Christine's songs from Lindsey's.

Michele

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I would think that if she liked her own SYW songs, she'd have mentioned that, as she has done when she has talked about the Tusk album, by distinguishing hers and Christine's songs from Lindsey's.

Very possible, but also an assumption. (Not taking you to task for that -- many of the things I've stated are assumptions, too.)

At any rate, I'm feeling like I'm just repeating myself and going in circles, so I think I'll bow out of this conversation now.

I understand the argument to the contrary, but I still feel that Stevie -- while certainly not logging as many hours as Lindsey -- spent more than enough time in the studio with Fleetwood Mac during the making of 'Say You Will' (pretty much the entirety of 2002), to be allowed an opinion on the result of her songs, the mixing, etc. Her contribution to that album wasn't just limited to two or three weeks, like it was with 'Mirage' and 'Tango.'

[MikeVielhaber]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Very possible, but also an assumption. (Not taking you to task for that -- many of the things I've stated are assumptions, too.)

At any rate, I'm feeling like I'm just repeating myself and going in circles, so I think I'll bow out of this conversation now.

I understand the argument to the contrary, but I still feel that Stevie -- while certainly not logging as many hours as Lindsey -- spent more than enough time in the studio with Fleetwood Mac during the making of 'Say You Will' (pretty much the entirety of 2002), to be allowed an opinion on the result of her songs, the mixing, etc. Her contribution to that album wasn't just limited to two or three weeks, like it was with 'Mirage' and 'Tango.'

I don't think anyone's saying she doesn't have say in the matter, but she also wasn't around to make sure her voice was heard. She was vacationing while Lindsey was at work. If it was important enough to her she could've been there too. It makes sense that Lindsey had more say because he's the one who was there the whole time. Not that he had more right to do it, but it's just natural that it worked out that way.

[elle]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I understand the argument to the contrary, but I still feel that Stevie -- while certainly not logging as many hours as Lindsey -- spent more than enough time in the studio with Fleetwood Mac during the making of 'Say You Will' (pretty much the entirety of 2002), to be allowed an opinion on the result of her songs, the mixing, etc. Her contribution to that album wasn't just limited to two or three weeks, like it was with 'Mirage' and 'Tango.'

i know what you are saying about going in circles...

there's an interview somewhere where SN said after SYW how when her songs don't sound the way she envisioned them, it feels like they are not her songs anymore, and she's not happy about them anymore. while she may have hated Come, i don't think songs like that was what she was talking about.

"allowed an opinion"? not sure what that means? who would not allow her an opinion? someone can discount her opinion, like she discounts an opinion about proper grammar usage in the songs. but from the statements made, it seems like after a lot of arguing - where everybody's opinion was allowed and expressed - they ended up with some kind of compromise, that possibly nobody was really happy about. that's how the compromise works, in many cases.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I understand the argument to the contrary,

No one is making an argument to the contrary. I think Stevie DID have a say in how her songs came out. No one kept her from mixing the songs the way she wanted. There's no evidence that Lindsey kept her from having an engineer of her choosing on her songs. Lindsey did not ban Chris Lord-Alge.

If the argument is that she just got tired of fighting with Lindsey, then why doesn't she also get too tired of complaining about him too?

You know, everyone accepts that Lindsey is difficult. He even calls himself a "troublemaker" but the process of working within a band is always going to be harder than working solo. It's harder for Lindsey too. Of course, it's easier to work with Dave Stewart on a solo album, but that's because Dave knows it's not his album. If he was working with Annie, Stevie and himself on an album belonging to the three of them, I doubt Stevie would have had as much fun, fun, fun with him.

Bands require compromise. Compromise is tough and stressful and comes after toil and arguments. Stevie is not the only one who feels picked on or unheard. Yes, I can understand her not wanting to go through the process again, but I don't buy its because she was treated so very unfairly during the SYW production.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Very possible, but also an assumption. (Not taking you to task for that -- many of the things I've stated are assumptions, too.)

When she says she doesn't like the music or the songs on SYW, without a qualifier, that statement would encompass ALL of the music and songs. To say that maybe she didn't mean her songs is reading something into her statement that is not there on its face.

It's like if she said, "Oh, I don't like meat." And you came back and said, "But she could have meant she doesn't like pork." Well, I guess she could have meant she only hates pork, but that's not what she said.

Michele

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

"We're both really selfish, and it's like, 'No, I want it to be this way!' It's like you have two serious bulls in a pen, and we argue all the time. There's continual trauma. But does it make for incredible works of music? Yeah, it does."

As I've said, I think she just doesn't want to fight and argue anymore.

So, if she doesn't want to fight anymore... In your Logic you aim for here, she basicly says she doesn't want incredible works of music anymore....

Well, then Fck off. I want incredible works of music.

[olive]

Seriously. They are all approaching their 70's and are millionaires .... What are they going to write about ... Life struggles.. New love / romance., future hopes and dreams.... (I would think by now Stevie has stopped writing about Lindsey.)

[elle]

Originally Posted by olive

Seriously. They are all approaching their 70's and are millionaires .... What are they going to write about ... Life struggles.. New love / romance., future hopes and dreams.... (I would think by now Stevie has stopped writing about Lindsey.)

so is Bruce. or Kris Kristofferson. or Richard Thompson. so was Johnny Cash. people can write and record great and interesting songs at any age.