"When I See You Again"

[Christopher]

Originally Posted by seekerj

Man, I wish there could be some equal time on this board and I could see a thread where someone else's songs could be ripped apart and exposed for the emotionless, light and trite songs they are. Not mentioning any names here, but I'm sure she'd be over her head everywhere when daddy says he loves her. You want to talk about repetition? Write down the words to "Little Lies" and then just look at the paper. Can't say that, though, because she's beyond human and does no wrong. She's so Perfect.

Regardless of any production considerations, at least Stevie's songs (and Lindsey's), the songs themselves, not the production, convey honest emotion and have something to say and contain so many levels.

Woohoo for chimpanzees!!!!!!

You're spot on! Even though I now miss Chris (I didn't when SYW was released) and will be happy to see her rejoin FM to lighten up the band with her hallmark-y pop sensibilities and bring that missing ingredient back into the fold. It's fair to say that Christine does not color outside the lines, and very rarely illicits the emotional gravitas and soul bearing that comes naturally to Stevie's writing - which sometimes makes Stevie an easy target. But it's also why we are still here talking about her, why she intensely connects to her listeners & has such a strong fanbase.

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

I would like it if it were actually a cover of the original; but...I find Stevie's lyrical arrangement lacking. With that polka-esqe carnival merry-go-round instrumentation, though, it was dead on arrival.

It took me years to appreaciate this cover. At 20 yrs old, it was a definite WTF moment. But years later, I get it. No doubt, this cover was a light-hearted attempt to end such a dark, dark record. To bring some levity to the woeful contemplation of Stevie's rock star fame musings of post drug treatment & pre mid-life crisis. And the quirky circus-waltz treatment perfectly serves as sorta this wierd Willy Wonka counterpoint to her "Alice in Wonderland" theme. It works.

Originally Posted by redbird

"When I See You Again" makes me tear up a little, but I do agree that it's undercooked. The vocal is sometimes okay, but it other times it doesn't compensate for the lyrics well (the infamous "wassamatterbaby"). I couldn't ever really get behind "stare at the stairs" either though I see what she was going for. But there are some really heartbreaking aspects to the song, always for me that line about there being at least one dream left, it just gets me in the old ticker.

To this day, I think that line was a lyric sheet misprint. In my mind, she meant "And she stares (back) at the stares" - the fans & media gawking at her. Which undoubtabley felt like such an intrusion at one of her darkest hours.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by seekerj

Man, I wish there could be some equal time on this board and I could see a thread where someone else's songs could be ripped apart and exposed for the emotionless, light and trite songs they are. Not mentioning any names here, but I'm sure she'd be over her head everywhere when daddy says he loves her. You want to talk about repetition? Write down the words to "Little Lies" and then just look at the paper. Can't say that, though, because she's beyond human and does no wrong. She's so Perfect.

Regardless of any production considerations, at least Stevie's songs (and Lindsey's), the songs themselves, not the production, convey honest emotion and have something to say and contain so many levels.

Woohoo for chimpanzees!!!!!!

No offense but you have to be kidding. For years people were tearing Lindsey and Christine apart in favor of Stevie. Her songs win all the polls and she is the one who is celebrated. Hell, when one of Stevie's song doesn't work, it's because Lindsey didn't produce it right.

[MikeInNV]

Originally Posted by seekerj

Man, I wish there could be some equal time on this board and I could see a thread where someone else's songs could be ripped apart and exposed for the emotionless, light and trite songs they are. Not mentioning any names here, but I'm sure she'd be over her head everywhere when daddy says he loves her. You want to talk about repetition? Write down the words to "Little Lies" and then just look at the paper. Can't say that, though, because she's beyond human and does no wrong. She's so Perfect.

Regardless of any production considerations, at least Stevie's songs (and Lindsey's), the songs themselves, not the production, convey honest emotion and have something to say and contain so many levels.

Woohoo for chimpanzees!!!!!!

I love this, because one of the common and obvious criticisms of WISYA is the repetition of "What's the matter baby" six times serving as a chorus. How lazy! How uninspired! But then on the other hand, "Hold Me" is a fan favorite.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by MikeInNV

I love this, because one of the common and obvious criticisms of WISYA is the repetition of "What's the matter baby" six times serving as a chorus. How lazy! How uninspired! But then on the other hand, "Hold Me" is a fan favorite.

But I think Hold Me is sung with a big more variety, long, frantic, a plea, a demand, music ascending and descending. If it were just "hold me, hold me, hold me" in a monotone, it would be dull, but hearing the same words go through so many different moods, just shows me how much power two syllables can have.

Michele

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by MikeInNV

I love this, because one of the common and obvious criticisms of WISYA is the repetition of "What's the matter baby" six times serving as a chorus. How lazy! How uninspired! But then on the other hand, "Hold Me" is a fan favorite.

I don't like the song because it is a weak song. Anyone could of wrote it. Nothing special about it. HOLD ME is a good song. They are not even on the same playing field. To compare those songs is an insult to Christine McVie.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by seekerj

No. No. No. No. And no.

Okay. I'll take the bait.

I have a few dozen friends who think I am a total jackass to place Stevie as one of the greatest songwriters of the last three decades. And they are serious songwriting snobs. So much so that they even track down every song they can use to disprove me. This is always the number one dagger tossed at me. They are people who toss arcane songwriters at me I have never even heard of.

This is her Achilles heel of a song. The melody doesn't go anywhere. The vocal is lazy. But perhaps all she was capable of at that moment. I will get back to that later.

The only redeeming quality of it is when Lindsey comes in. Then it becomes something like a dialogue. The mythology of the song, according to Stevie, is that she snuck into the studio and stripped her vocals off to end it with Lindsey's harmony. And that is where the song kind of comes life. If there is any proof of Lindsey crafting her songs into something, this is the proof. Because without him, this song is simply an unfinished fragment. A song that might have been. He saves it from being utterly nothing to a bit of a roman a clef - (novel about real life, overlaid with a façade of fiction).

It is a shipper's paradise, this song.

Until Lindsey comes in, this is a crushed, croaking, barely hanging onto life Stevie. I get it. There is a part of the Stevie mythology that hinges on her being a broken and helpless waif. Her whole image is rooted in that rising from the ashes BS.

The problem is it is a BAD SONG. Poorly structured, throwaway lyrics and only the skeleton of a melody. We all know it was a sad scrap she deigned to toss at the session and she relied on Lindsey to save it. For God's sake he could have pulled Smile At You for the record. That was a great song. The gutted and soul free SYW version notwithstanding.

It is kind of cute and sweet (hahahahah) that Lindsey saved it from utter oblivion with his harmony, and that Stevie had the good sense to strip it to his vocal at the end. But no one, save a die hard Stevie fan, in my experience, has ever found this song to be anything but a throwaway embarrassment. In the final analysis, I suspect he used this song for one reason and one reason alone - to show that she was sometimes a crappy songwriter who couldn't function without him. I think his agreement to use of this song was deliberate. Just to make her look bad. The reviews of the time tossed a ton of shade on this song. A Michael K Dlisted level of shade. And deservedly so.

Whenever I hear anyone glorify this shoddy offering, that was so clearly given to the band by Stevie when she was at the absolute bottom of her songwriting abilities, and perhaps the worst period of her life, I wonder why those people would want to celebrate her weakness. Not only her weakness as a songwriter, but her weakness as a person.

I think it is telling. Not of her, but of those who like it.

There is a certain value in writing about ourselves and even talking about ourselves when we are in the depths of despair. That can make for great art. When it is considered. I think this song is an example of her being so far in the depths of destruction that her writing skills utterly left her. She couldn't even tell if her output was good or bad. And this was BAD. It is like looking at, and wanting to see, pictures of a brilliant artist puking in a gutter. She has no perspective. No sense of quality. It is damned near emotional pornography. I expect and expected better from her as an artist.

This song, to me, is a mess. An undisciplined, throwaway half assed piece of junk. Whenever I hear someone praise it, all I can think of is this - that person somehow glorifies, and for some reason, wallows in weakness and damage and feels strength in romanticizing swimming in their own helplessness. And by that token, thinks Stevie is somehow heroic for being at the absolute bottom of her journey on earth. This song says nothing about surviving the worst or getting out. And above and beyond cute...Lindsey SAVED HER...as she was simply so weak and so helpless that the hero once again rescues the weak helpless damsel with his genius. She was simply not capable of anything else.

I don't get it. I may have when I was 15. Or 17. But as an adult, I do not see any value in making love to your own grief. And that is all this song is.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I don't like the song because it is a weak song. Anyone could of wrote it. Nothing special about it. HOLD ME is a good song. They are not even on the same playing field. To compare those songs is an insult to Christine McVie.

I know. I mean it's not the repetition of words that kills When I See You Again, it's the droning, stupid quality. Wild Heart has a lot of repetition, but Stevie's vocal soars and it doesn't matter how many wild, wild, wild, wild, wilds she throws in, it's thrilling, pulsing with both emotion and her artistry as a singer.

Michele

[AnthonyMI]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I don't like the song because it is a weak song. Anyone could of wrote it. Nothing special about it. HOLD ME is a good song. They are not even on the same playing field. To compare those songs is an insult to Christine McVie.

I will add that Hold me is an amazing song, lyrically, sonically, tonally, rhythmically, etc etc. It is a Perfect POP song that starts somewhere, goes somewhere, leaves you wanting more. etc etc.

I think the Demo version of Hold Me lacks the repeats of Hold Me, hold me, HOLD MEE. HHHHEEEEE. Instead it goes something like "So hold me, hold me hold me like a good man could. Hold me Hold me Hold like a good man SHOULD".

[Dex]

Yes. If lyrical repetition alone was something someone disliked in songwriting, they wouldn't be a fan of Fleetwood Mac at all, or popular music in general for that matter, and they wouldn't be posting here. That's not what's being criticised in WISYA. Monotony would be a much better word for it. Or, as Michele said, "stupid". This comparison with well-crafted Christine McVie songs is moot. Those songs are trying to accomplish something completely different in the first place. And I'm not a Christine McVie apologist by any means. She's my least favourite of the three by a mile.

Put it this way, if a friend asks you to make an into-to-Stevie playlist to get their feet wet on her body of work, is WISYA ever a song you'd even dream of including in a million years?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by sparky

Whenever I hear someone praise it, all I can think of is this - that person somehow glorifies, and for some reason, wallows in weakness and damage and feels strength in romanticizing swimming in their own helplessness. And by that token, thinks Stevie is somehow heroic for being at the absolute bottom of her journey on earth. This song says nothing about surviving the worst or getting out. And above and beyond cute...Lindsey SAVED HER...as she was simply so weak and so helpless that the hero once again rescues the weak helpless damsel with his genius. She was simply not capable of anything else.

For me, it's quite the contrary. I don't glorify or romanticize weakness (anyone who knows me can tell you I hate self-pity) -- I simply think it's important to recognize where we've been, in order to travel the road ahead. Strength comes from admitting our failings and then dusting ourselves off and moving forward.

This song, unto itself, may not say anything about surviving the worst, but it's an important one in the narrative course of her work. Songs since have told the "survivor" story. While "When I See You Again" illustrates the nadir of her existence -- when she was desperate, vulnerable, lonely, gutted.

Additionally, I don't see Lindsey's contribution at the end of the song, as him saving her (figuratively or literally). He represents the voice of a lost-love and the relationship she needs to make peace with.

[BLY]

I sometimes wonder if the MAC fans that hear these songs for the first time when orginally released vs. later in the years have an effect on their opinions. When Tango came out in '87 I was blown away with all the tracks.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by BLY

I sometimes wonder if the MAC fans that hear these songs for the first time when orginally released vs. later in the years have an effect on their opinions. When Tango came out in '87 I was blown away with all the tracks.

hmmm, I still love Tango In The Night and I almost feel the same about individual songs. My love for Everywhere has grown.

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by Dex

Put it this way, if a friend asks you to make an into-to-Stevie playlist to get their feet wet on her body of work, is WISYA ever a song you'd even dream of including in a million years?

In a word; NO

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by BLY

I sometimes wonder if the MAC fans that hear these songs for the first time when orginally released vs. later in the years have an effect on their opinions. When Tango came out in '87 I was blown away with all the tracks.

I bought TITN the day it was released. I loved 7 Wonders from the get go and hated the other 2 songs of Stevie's. I spent many a time mimicking Stevie singing WTTRS. I always felt that Lindsey allowed these songs to go out to the world to punish Stevie. All these years later I actually like all 3 songs though I haven't listened to any of them in years.

[Macfanforever]

I remember I had a problem playing Stevie's Sometimes its a Beach at couple old jobs.Its a great tune but I had to skip it on the tape cassette or the CD player because couple of co-workers would come unglued hearing the word beach in the lyrics.




This was years ago before the music industry went into full swing in the cursing mode like they are with todays tunes. Today they probably have to wear earplugs.LOL....

I love "When I See You Again".




Nice and mellow music which I love.