SATAN Statue

[olive]

it's only fair


http://news.yahoo.com/group-unveils-...lkA1ZJUDI4Ml8x

[Dex]

I really need to take a refresher course on Satanism. I used to have a fair understanding of it but I've pretty much forgotten everything that they're really about.

My impression of the proposed statue is that it's basically kind of cool looking. But I agree with the Rep. It's not going to fly in Oklahoma City. It just doesn't reflect the views of enough of the population to be at all justifiable.

[KarmaContestant]

I read this article this morning while getting ready for work.

If this were a statue of Shiva or Buddha or Confucious or even Poseidon - I'd think "oh, that's neat" but erecting a status of Satan in opposition to the Ten Commandments is petty.

From what i understand, Satanism exists only as a counterpoint to Christianity, Islam and Judaism and only serves to mock them. It doesn't belong in the same category as other faiths, and has no benefit to humanity or our culture.

In this case, I've got to agree with the guy who said "I think we need to be tolerant of people who think different than us, but this is Oklahoma, and that's not going to fly here."

Then again, if elected government is not supposed to endorse any faith, the Ten Commandments monument should be removed.

[Dex]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

If this were a statue of Shiva or Buddha or Confucious or even Poseidon - I'd think "oh, that's neat" but erecting a status of Satan in opposition to the Ten Commandments is petty.

From what i understand, Satanism exists only as a counterpoint to Christianity, Islam and Judaism and only serves to mock them. It doesn't belong in the same category as other faiths, and has no benefit to humanity or our culture.

I found a very informative website that I used to pore over as a teenager. It seems to have a sufficient "Idiots Guide" to the basics of the religion. http://religioustolerance.org/satanism.htm

It identifies two kinds of Satanism. "Religious Satanism" and "Satanic Dabbling". A notable point from the description of "Religious Satanism":

It is important to realize that the Satan that they recognize has few if any points of similarity with the historical Muslim or Christian concept of Satan. The Satanists' concept of Satan is pre-Christian, and derived from the Pagan image of power, virility, sexuality and sensuality. To almost religious Satanists, Satan is a force of nature, not a living quasi-deity. Their Satan has nothing to do with Hell, demons, pitchforks, sadistic torture, buying people's souls, demonic possession, performing miracles, human sacrifices, cannibalism, and profoundly evil deeds.

I don't deny that there is something decidedly subversive about continuing to use the term "Satanism" for what seems to be basically a fairly standard branch of Neo-Paganism. But hey-ho.

"Satanic Dabbling" is their name for what seems to be the sort of stir-the-pot rebel-rebel anti-establishment stuff that you're thinking of, KarmaContestant. But people who identify as Satanic in this category are usually teenagers.

It's difficult to know which category the people who've put forth this statue belong to. The statue looks pretty characteristically pagan to me, but it sounds less like they want to celebrate their own beliefs and more like they just have a point to make. But I guess their point is a good one, either way.

[MoonSister75]

Well when I first saw this, my instant reaction was...that's horrible. But as I know nothing about Satanism (other than I don't like the sound of it) I had a brief look at their website to try to get some idea of their beliefs. Some of it was interesting, and I can kind of understand the point they are trying to make but...I agree with you Dex, I'm not sure Satanism is the best choice of name for a religion. But I guess they want to make a very strong point.

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by Dex

I don't deny that there is something decidedly subversive about continuing to use the term "Satanism" for what seems to be basically a fairly standard branch of Neo-Paganism. But hey-ho.

"Satanic Dabbling" is their name for what seems to be the sort of stir-the-pot rebel-rebel anti-establishment stuff that you're thinking of, KarmaContestant. But people who identify as Satanic in this category are usually teenagers.

It's difficult to know which category the people who've put forth this statue belong to. The statue looks pretty characteristically pagan to me, but it sounds less like they want to celebrate their own beliefs and more like they just have a point to make. But I guess their point is a good one, either way.

Yes, of course. However - and this is important - when you decide to erect a statue in the same place as a tablet commemorating the Ten Commandments, it's very clear what brand of Satanism you are really promoting, no matter what your website says.

If they are truly a virility cult, perhaps they could avoid resentment and confusion by calling their deity by a name other than Satan. Like, Pan or Cernunnos, for example, since that is clearly who their image of Satan is based upon. The very word "Satan" is Hebrew in origin - and it is absurd for these people to pretend they don't identify with the Judeo-Christian Devil, when every single etymological variation of the word Satan refers to a dark spirit, a malevolant force, a demon, a fallen warrior, a slanderer, a deceiver - someone who has been cast out.

It's akin to starting a cult worshiping the anti-Christ, calling him the anti-Christ, and then claiming that your faith and your anti-Christ have nothing whatsoever to do with the bibilcal anti-Christ. I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from the 2008 election - 'You can put lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.'

[Dex]

Yes, I'd love to know why they stick with the name Satan. I'm sure there's a reason they'd give us if asked, other than just "it's provocative!" However tenuous that reason may seem to us. Any Satanic Ledgies in the house that want to weigh in?

The statue is most likely designed simply to provoke discussion of the appropriateness of all faith-based art in public spaces, which I think is a discussion that's important to have in places like Oklahoma City which are becoming more diverse. I don't think anyone expects it to appear any time soon. I still think it looks kind of cool though.

[MoonSister75]

your above post amused me so much...

Originally Posted by Dex

Yes, I'd love to know why they stick with the name Satan.

As I read some of their website, I thought I should reply to you. I just want to make it very very clear I am NOT a Satanist Ledgie (I'm much more into Buddhism) - I just found this statue article interesting.

From what I can tell from their website, it seems like they stick with the name Satan as they believe that there were Satanists far back in history. So I'm guessing they want to keep to the origins of the religion. This is from their website:

evidence nonetheless suggests the regular appearance of Satanic devotees extending far back into Western civilized history. Historical reports of early Satanism are often colored by fears of an anti-human “other”, however, the literary history of Satan — from Milton to Anatole France — suggests that biblical interpretations of a humanistic, benevolent Satan, driving our highest aspirations and encouraging human compassion have resonated for centuries.

[Dex]

Originally Posted by MoonSister75

I just want to make it very very clear I am NOT a Satanist Ledgie (I'm much more into Buddhism) [/I]

Believe it or not, there are many who would consider those two one and the same.

Thanks for the info, MoonSister (I almost called you MS, but I think that's probably a bad idea).

[MoonSister75]

Originally Posted by Dex

Believe it or not, there are many who would consider those two one and the same.

Thanks for the info, MoonSister (I almost called you MS, but I think that's probably a bad idea).

really?!? that makes no sense at all..oh well

and yes I prefer moonsister

[Dex]

You have obviously not spent much time among fundamentalist/born again Christians. Count yourself blessed. "Sense" is not really on the menu for those folks.

[MoonSister75]

Originally Posted by Dex

You have obviously not spent much time among fundamentalist/born again Christians. Count yourself blessed. "Sense" is not really on the menu for those folks.

Well I have some lovely Christian friends, but we avoid talking about religion. And no I don't know any fundamentalist Christians.

[becca]

I'd think Oklahoma could justify a ten commandments statue on the basis of a longish history of christianity there including it's founders. I woiuld like to think if native Americans wanted to erect something there'd be no opposition, but then again I didn't understand the hoohah over the Manhattan muslim community center branded a ground zero mosque.

Satan, Lucifer, Mephistopheles, Beelzebub, Uncle Scratch... I don't even know if these are all the same character or not. One of the Bible devils seemed to be vegetarian as he had cloven hooves (while 'the Lord' was more pleased with Abel's meat offering and also found burning oxen flesh pleasing). If there is some ultimate outside evil force he won't be much use if he mostly hangs around with heavy metal fans in their parents' basements.

[Dex]

Originally Posted by becca

I'd think Oklahoma could justify a ten commandments statue on the basis of a longish history of christianity there including it's founders. I woiuld like to think if native Americans wanted to erect something there'd be no opposition, but then again I didn't understand the hoohah over the Manhattan muslim community center branded a ground zero mosque.

Yeah, I agree. That's certainly a solid argument. Some might challenge whether the officially secular Oklahoma Legislature's steps are the place for such a monument, though. I really don't have a strong opinion either way. I live in a country that is officially Christian so things like that don't really faze me. But I do think the discussion is a good one to have in a place like Oklahoma.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by becca

I would like to think if native Americans wanted to erect something there'd be no opposition

but the US Govt. would be opposed to it. Part of a law on the books that applies to Native Tribes is that they CANNOT OPENLY practice their religious beliefs, as in the "old beliefs", unless risking jail time...and/or 'political backlash against their tribe for going against the settlement with the US govt.'

As for the Satanists, Let them build it...I need a good laugh when I go to OKC, lol!