Kristen Buckingham joins Elle Decor “A-Listers”

[secret love]

Originally Posted by elle

i like your open mind and general attitude, secret love. you are open to healthy discussion and differing opinions and i appreciate that a lot, because many people get in a defensive mode instead, for whatever reason.

but see, although i agree with you that tastes are different, and very much so in FM world with so many different songwriters (and i especially appreciate that you came over to LB board to discuss this!), i think some songs are objectively weak, while others are objectively strong, regardless of whether one likes them.

i can appreciate that Red Rover or Murrow are not everybody's cup of tea, that they may be too frantic, too rocking, too much guitar for someone's taste, or whatever problem you have with them. but objectively those are strong songs. so that's where i make a distinction. some songs may be weak, but you or i may love them regardless, for whatever reason (Silver Girls comes to mind . others may be strong, but you or i may dislike them.

I see what you mean, when I talk about songs being weak of course I can only rely on my own experiences of music in order to judge that. When I play Murrow for other people they have been known to find it very unsettling to the point of asking me to turn the song down or off. Red Rover I agree is a more objectively-strong song. And my personal opinion? There are very few songs on Fleetwood Mac's Say You Will album which I don't like: but yes, Murrow is one of them - I tried to like it I really did but just couldn't. Red Rover initially I enjoyed but I have listened to it enough for the song to lose the appeal it once had.

I actually am a lyricist. And I simply cannot say that the lyrics to Red Rover are objectively strong because I would be lying to myself. If I wrote a song like that I would not feel personally satisfied with it. But as I say, initially I liked it but it wore thin after a few listens and then began to sound tired, worn and cliched.

Again - I agree with you that objectively, we can consider Silver Girl to be a weak song. I love it too, though! And why? Not because Stevie's voice sounds pleasant, not because the music is good (Stevie's vocal on Silver Girl is sub-par and the music is boring)...I like the song because it was written about Sheryl Crow. And apparently this multi-millionaire (Sheryl) has problems just like us. Sure she has money and privilege. But according to Stevie's lyric: Sheryl was born into the wrong generation - S. Crow regrets not signing papers/contracts. Sheryl is a "wild adventurer"...she is a person who makes mistakes, whose life is not perfect and who Stevie clearly adores and counts as a true friend. And it is this story that I love: this honesty and openness. The lyric is just a reminder to me of how much Stevie loves, cares for, stands up for and protects her friends.

But the notion that a song can be "objectively strong" or "objectively weak" is an interesting one. For example, Rock Lobster by the B-52s, a song which so many people love, for me - is from a technical/instrumental perspective, a weak song. But it is so goddamn groovy! It doesn't take a virtuoso musician to play the opening riff but it just sounds so silly and fun that it makes you wanna dance and be happy aha.

Would you consider Rock Lobster strong or weak from an objective standpoint?

And within Fleetwood Mac: Running Through the Garden. Weak/strong?

ETA: Let me just clarify the reason why I don't like Murrow or Red Rover has very little to do with the music and everything to do with the lyric. The guitars sound just fine. Mick is in fine form. But what I really connect to in a song is the words. And Lindsey offered in Murrow a very interesting political comment (well...it is more of a political rant but anyways...) about contemporary journalism being in a state of disrepute. Fair enough. I agree. But enough with the melodrama of "pneumatic drills and sharpening knives, blood in the sky, are you dead or alive?" He is just ranting and raving and its is incoherent and illogical - and Linds is seems like an intelligent person and he is still capable of writing better lyrics than the Murrow lyric. Technically Murrow is a brilliant song but the guitar playing is just showy and too noisy for me. Red Rover: I love the instrumental track. I hate the lyric. Same problem.

Lindsey does not seem to have the skill to write lyrics which are accessible to the average listener, whilst remaining opaque so that there is no concern over people spreading rumours such as: "Oh my God did you hear Lindsey is finally Saying Goodbye to Stevie after 25 years and at last their relationship...is all over Red Rover?" Like sorry, Elle, I don't know if you like the lyrics is Red Rover or Say Goodbye for that matter - but I would be personally embarrassed to sing the words Lindsey does live when he performs Red Rover and Say Goodbye live in concert. Too cliched and transparent and all about Stevie, yet again. Stevie the woman who does not love him, and has felt rather indifferent about Lindsey for at least the past 15 years if not much longer. She counts him as a friend nothing more... and I think it is unfair for Lindsey to write these silly lyrics which are disingenous to the true nature of Buckingham/Nicks' relationship. Unfair on the listener. Unfair on Lindsey's wife/kids and unfair on Stevie. It's just ...fake.