SYW, best album of all time?

[Dex]

Originally Posted by vivfox

After having and loving her demos for many years I used to say that Stevie went into the studio and spent thousands of dollars to destroy her songs. It looks like you would agree.

I'm sure I read a quote somewhere where Stevie was expressing frustration that after spending thousands recording songs in the studio, her friends would often ask to just listen to her old demo tapes of her just banging the songs out, because they preferred them. Does anyone know what I might be thinking of?

I like your quote, viv, but I do think you might be exaggerating a touch. I'm not sure I'd say that all, or even most, of Stevie's songs have been marred by overproduction. But I can see what you're talking about in many cases. Some of her songs really do benefit from the feeling of intimacy created in her demos, which very rarely translates to her final product. And that's really a shame. I think perhaps the key would be getting her to identify less as a "rock star" and more just as a singer-songwriter. She has had a tendency over the years to want to make her songs "rock" when perhaps they shouldn't. But then, I can't really say that about any songs on IYD. Maybe she's finally got it.

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by elle

when i first started listening to LB's and FM lyrics, i just kept thinking - stop!! what a bunch of self-centered & self-important a-holes! look around you, people, there's a whole wide world around you with bunch of problems and you bunch of indulgent rich people keep whining about you love life for 40 years like you are the only ones and that's the most important thing ever?!

This paragraph cracked me up. One of the qualities I enjoy about FM's lyrics is that they take me away from all the world's problems and transport my mind to a more cushy place.

[wheart]

Originally Posted by bluefox4000

Sh*t no. I hate the thing. Such a lazy effort

Mick

Agreed. If they had just cut it down to 12 or so songs, it would have been so much stronger and far more enjoyable to listen to.

[Dex]

Originally Posted by wheart

Agreed. If they had just cut it down to 12 or so songs, it would have been so much stronger and far more enjoyable to listen to.

People say this, but there seems to be very little consensus over which 12 songs should've made the cut. I dislike overlong albums, too, but in this case I can't tell whether "trimming the fat" would improve or actually worsen fan-opinion of the album, given the sheer diversity of opinion on each song.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by elle

see i feel just the opposite. when i first started listening to LB's and FM lyrics, i just kept thinking - stop!! what a bunch of self-centered & self-important a-holes! look around you, people, there's a whole wide world around you with bunch of problems and you bunch of indulgent rich people keep whining about you love life for 40 years like you are the only ones and that's the most important thing ever?!

so i was really happy to hear some political or other non-love songs from Lindsey, and that he actually finally stopped being so completely self-indulgent for a change.

With a few exceptions (One Take), I don't like social songs. On the other hand, I think 95% of all songs are social. I don't see love songs as self-indulgent (unless they're treacly, in which case I see them as emotionally manipulative, not into "feel good"). If they're angry, condemn or observe a relationship, I don't care whose relationship it is, it often speaks to me. It might be a love or break up song, but it usually says something about humans universally that takes it far beyond whatever personal pain the songwriter was describing.

Moreover, despite all the press the FM players get about their personal strife, I don't think see all of their songs as being about that or as being insular. They mean something much bigger to me than the compartmentalization and separations they are asked to discuss so much in interviews. For someone to break Come down and say it is about Anne Heche is interesting to me as a fan, but I think it does all the things the song can mean an injustice, really. I want to know what they say the song is about, but it's never just about that to me.

Many times, I'll take snatches of a song "dusty fury on a mountain top" and apply it to something else. I know a lot of times when I think of a ditty like "Can't Go Back" it's in my mind because I'm focusing on aging or recalling conversations with people who have died. It's not about Lindsey or FM --- but when I think of the song with them in the context, it's very meaningful to me that way too.

Although there are exceptions ("Family Man" springs to mind), usually I think the meaning of a song is only constrained by the limitations of my own thoughts and feelings. If they sang, "oh Mickey you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind, hey Mickey!" Then, I might tend to agree with you more.

Michele

[michelej1]

^Oh, not that I don't have fond memories of that Tony Basil song and video, 'cause I do!

[wheart]

Originally Posted by Dex

People say this, but there seems to be very little consensus over which 12 songs should've made the cut. I dislike overlong albums, too, but in this case I can't tell whether "trimming the fat" would improve or actually worsen fan-opinion of the album, given the sheer diversity of opinion on each song.

good point! I, for one, adore Silver Girl and would definitely include it on the "abridged" version but I have heard much dislike of this song so go figure! I would leave off Smile at You, Come, Say Goodbye, Goodbye Baby, Running Through the Garden, and Bleed to Love Her.

[mitzo]

Originally Posted by Dex

I'm sure I read a quote somewhere where Stevie was expressing frustration that after spending thousands recording songs in the studio, her friends would often ask to just listen to her old demo tapes of her just banging the songs out, because they preferred them. Does anyone know what I might be thinking of?

I like your quote, viv, but I do think you might be exaggerating a touch. I'm not sure I'd say that all, or even most, of Stevie's songs have been marred by overproduction. But I can see what you're talking about in many cases. Some of her songs really do benefit from the feeling of intimacy created in her demos, which very rarely translates to her final product. And that's really a shame. I think perhaps the key would be getting her to identify less as a "rock star" and more just as a singer-songwriter. She has had a tendency over the years to want to make her songs "rock" when perhaps they shouldn't. But then, I can't really say that about any songs on IYD. Maybe she's finally got it.

Totally agree about the ill effects of the drive to "rock." To me that has blighted her solo efforts a lot, starting right back with the detrimental Tom Petty alliance right through most solo albums. Her creativity has been stifled as a result and the magic badly tarnished.

[secret love]

Originally Posted by mitzo

I have to agree but add that with FM/Lindsey her songs are elevated by production, while solo they have been ruined more times than not. It is not about instruments and synths, it is about overall quality and vision.

I am also of the opinion vivfox expressed that Stevie creates gorgeous, touching and poignant music on her own at home (with some limited input from her musician friends). Then she goes into the studio to record these so called "demo CDs" and convert them to "new albums".

As a Stevie fan I'd really love to have access to a high-quality acoustic album from Stevie (I know most of her demos are available on YouTube but it is not the same). The 1980 demo of Secret Love is a prime example of how she paid $1000+ to ruin a beautiful song...the 1982 Smile at You (Angry Demo) is another classic example. And it is not just that her voice sounds better because she had not yet damaged it (of course we all know she has a whole in her nasal septum as a result of cocaine abuse which changed the sound of her instrument/voice).

If you haven't already listened to this Ledgies... do yourself a favour

[secret love]

Originally Posted by wheart

good point! I, for one, adore Silver Girl and would definitely include it on the "abridged" version but I have heard much dislike of this song so go figure! I would leave off Smile at You, Come, Say Goodbye, Goodbye Baby, Running Through the Garden, and Bleed to Love Her.

That's funny! I'd probably leave off Smile at You, Say Goodbye and Bleed to Love Her, too (I like Bleed to Love Her but it was already released on The Dance album: the live version is better than the studio cut in my honest opinion).

But- I love Come, Goodbye Baby and Running Through the Garden. Come and Rappacini's Daughter (that's what it should be called...because Stevie lifted the lyrical story of Running Through the Garden from that tale from the 1800's) are both great rocking songs whereas Goodbye Baby is the opposite: a soft, slow and gentle ballad: the perfect closer to almost any Fleetwood Mac playlist (look I know lots of people don't like G.B. but I have been known to shed a tear occasionally when I listen to that song, I'm not to proud too admit).

I think Say You Will is fine as it is. Almost every song on the album has touched my life in some way. And to shorten the album only redefines the SYW album as an artwork, it does not change the poor production of Stevie's songs, for example. Too many of Stevie's songs were overproduced; I like the mix on Thrown Down and on Say You Will, also Destiny Rules and Illume are produced and mixed quite well. Silver Girl's production is awful. Goodbye Baby...well it's okay, it was well-produced, but the song was not well-produced if your name is Lindsey Buckingham and you have been produced albums for over 30 years and should be able to do better!

Really I can understand Stevie's dissatisfaction with SYW. Lindsey was a complete arsehole during the production of it if Destiny Rules doco is anything to go by. Take for instance the scene with Stevie, Linds and Karen sitting in studio discussion how SN's lawyers are involved - contracts with outside producers, choice of producers etc.: Stevie just bursts out at one point in this very honest, hurt tone:

"Oh Lindsey, no! Why are you saying that!" It was so cute ...but I felt sorry for her. He doesn't take her seriously and he stirs the pot publicly to annoy Stevie. He knows the cameras are there so he gets her riled up. LB does appear to be a bit of a bully. Take for instance how he still holds that grudge "Stevie still hasn't thanked me for [working with her on] Say You Will". Newsflash: I don't thank my co-workers when we do something together as part of a team: it is all part of the job. No need to thank anyone. Just be happy that you could share some time with Stevie...but no, LB holds on to these stupid grudges. And his whole "Christine really burned all her bridges when she moved to England after The Dance tour..."

[Desiree]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I really do love some of the songs on SYW... but I just don't think it's a great album. The absolute polarity of Lindsey & Stevie on Tusk was balanced out by the bridge that was Christine. SYW is like Tusk, only minus the bridge. So it comes across as combative & schizophrenic. Stevie definitely brought her best material to the table since Mirage (yes, I'm counting Behind The Mask). But it just had no relation or commonality to Lindsey's material. I think this stepping stone was one that was necessary to happen, though. I think Stevie & Lindsey needed to trip, fall, and bloody themselves up. And hopefully they'll be better for it on the next album. And I truly do think there will be one more 'next album.'

I agree! I also think that if LB and SN were to produce the next record TOGETHER perhaps that could work out well, (I know but a girl can wish!) I remember reading a quote Ken C made about Stevie having great ideas in the studio and from the last two films, Destiny Rules and IYD's it's obvious that she is totally involved these days when it comes to her music. LB just can't call the shots in the studio anymore because if he tries to, we will never get another FM record with SN. He might have known what to do with her music back in the day, but his heavy handed production on her SYW songs almost or did ruin them! And really, most of her songs for that record were great! I loved the first demo I heard of Thrown Down, and that song is killer and very revealing..

[Desiree]

Originally Posted by vivfox

After having and loving her demos for many years I used to say that Stevie went into the studio and spent thousands of dollars to destroy her songs. It looks like you would agree.

I certainly agree...not all but many...

[secret love]

Originally Posted by Desiree

I agree! I also think that if LB and SN were to produce the next record TOGETHER perhaps that could work out well, (I know but a girl can wish!) I remember reading a quote Ken C made about Stevie having great ideas in the studio and from the last two films, Destiny Rules and IYD's it's obvious that she is totally involved these days when it comes to her music. LB just can't call the shots in the studio anymore because if he tries to, we will never get another FM record with SN. He might have known what to do with her music back in the day, but his heavy handed production on her SYW songs almost or did ruin them! And really, most of her songs for that record were great! I loved the first demo I heard of Thrown Down, and that song is killer and very revealing..

If Stevie and Lindsey could manage to get along just long enough to produce a record together I think that the result would be an absolute kick-ass album. Buckingham and Nicks are currently stating publicly that they are getting on the best they ever have in years. Stevie admitted that she said sorry to Lindsey (in the Sunday Night Australian TV interview at the Sacramento US show). Sorry for what I'm not sure? Sorry for dumping him in 1977? Sorry for not getting back together with him in 1997? God only knows...he is clearly somewhat stuck in the past at least on a professional level: songs like oh I don't know, Sad Angel, It Takes Time and my personal ahem favourite, Miss Fantasy ...these songs just say to me: stalker creep alert! Kidding ... but I think maybe Lindsey needed to hear a sorry from Stevie, whether it be, "Sorry for making the Say You Will Tour so difficult and straining our relationship with my professional hang-ups about you wrecking my songs." OR
"Sorry, Linds, we will always be friends but I do not love you. You have effectively been out of my life for 10 years except when we are on the road and working. I should have tried harder to be more considerate of your feelings. I know that you feel wronged by me. But I do not love you, I stopped loving you 36 years ago. Yes I felt those butterflies in my stomach too during the Dance tour - but it was just lust ...nothing more. You had a pregnant girlfriend at the time. So I just can't, Lindsey. I want to be your friend. And I want it to be easy. I don't want to struggle anymore. I want us to get along. Because I did once love you. And maybe one day I'll love again...but ...we can only ever be friends and nothing more."

These are two very different "sorries" and I would love to be a fly on the wall when Stevie and Linds are alone together. Their relationship is so bizarre in that normally after a breakup you do not need to see your lover again...but 36 years later they are still working together on a regular basis.

A new Mac album with LMJS would be amazing. And just two new Christine McVie songs would melt my heart.

ETA: You know Stevie once said one day she will write a book and tell the whole story of the relationships and excess in her life in general, and with Lindsey and the band. I found this quite funny and ironic:almost every song Buckingham and Nicks write is about each other. Then it occurred to me: what do I know? I'm just some random guy who listens to their music. I don't know Stevie, Lindsey, Mick, John or Christine. And I bet you all the mystery and intrigue about Lindsey and Stevie's relationship is already blatantly obvious and transparent to their friends and family. I really don't think Stevie has any more secrets to share. She has lived her life as an open book. Sure she has managed to her credit to live a relatively private life away from paparazzi and nosy fans (hahaha - yes, people like us haha). The thing is, she will generally answer any point-blanc questions journalists ask her straight up, sincerely and honestly. I really do admire Stevie's honesty despite finding her attitude to life to occasionally be self-centred and narcisstic.

Has anyone on these boards ever had the pleasure of meeting Stevie and talking to her? Obviously she does not do Meet and Greets as a rule during her concert tours...

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by mitzo

Totally agree about the ill effects of the drive to "rock." To me that has blighted her solo efforts a lot, starting right back with the detrimental Tom Petty alliance right through most solo albums. Her creativity has been stifled as a result and the magic badly tarnished.

Now, I love her work with Tom, but otherwise agree wholeheartedly. Bella Donna rocks without being 'rocky'. Edge is the hardest tune there, and other songs like Outside The Rain and How Still My Love rock just the right amount without sounding masculine. You're rather critical of the album, but I think many fans consider it the benchmark of what a solo Stevie album should sound like.

For *years* I've dreamed of a Stevie album produced by the likes of Tori Amos or Neko Case - or any other female singer/songwriter who doesn't 'rock' and who understands the importance of bringing that realm of femininity to her music instead of trying to cover it all up with that masculine 'let's rock' crap that she seems to embrace so feverishly.

[secret love]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

Now, I love her work with Tom, but otherwise agree wholeheartedly. Bella Donna rocks without being 'rocky'. Edge is the hardest tune there, and other songs like Outside The Rain and How Still My Love rock just the right amount without sounding masculine. You're rather critical of the album, but I think many fans consider it the benchmark of what a solo Stevie album should sound like.

For *years* I've dreamed of a Stevie album produced by the likes of Tori Amos or Neko Case - or any other female singer/songwriter who doesn't 'rock' and who understands the importance of bringing that realm of femininity to her music instead of trying to cover it all up with that masculine 'let's rock' crap that she seems to embrace so feverishly.

Stevie Nicks did well in her most recent effort, In Your Dreams album. Thing is, the highlights of that for me are Lady from the Mountains [I refuse to believe the Bull**** story Stevie spun about the song being inspired by the insipid Twilight books/film series...majority of the song was written during the Tusk-era...20+ years before Twilight was written. So let's call the song what it is puh-lease.] also, Soldier's Angel, You May be the One, My Heart, Annabel Lee. The song Italian Summer is just embarrassing, cringe-worthy and cliched: honestly, the closing vocals are autotuned to the hilt: come on Stevie, you can do better than that. Cheaper Than Free is a stupid, dopey song in its lyric...and Dave Stewart cannot sing very well so that spoils it too: Dave's a guitarist not a singer! Secret Love - overproduced. For What's It's Worth was good.

I think gradually Stevie is realising she doesn't have to do the whole "let's rock" thing and that it is not what her fans like about her anyway. In interviews she regularly says "People ask me what I do, I say I'm a rock n roll star." Something about that doesn't sit well with me: for a start ...I wouldn't really classify the majority of Stevie's songs as rock music and I'd say really, its not something she need aspire to: take Silver Springs for example: a gorgeous ballad. Or Say You Will, a cute catchy feel-good "commercial pop song". Her only true rockers for me, the songs of Stevie's that get me on my feet singing and dancing, are Stand Back (loved the bongo drums arrangement from 2003 DVD), Edge of 17, Gold Dust Woman, Running Through the Garden, maybe Seven Wonders, Sisters of the Moon, Angel, Ghosts are Gone...generally only one song on each album is a rock-out song.

Stevie could learn a lot from her dear friend Vanessa Carlton...she could learn that music is not about fame. Music is about connecting with people. It is not about Stevie. It is about everybody else. And it is about being genuine, telling your story honestly and not fabricating lies or defaming people just because you don't like them (Planets of the Universe comes to mind...even Stevie thought the original version was too harsh on Lindsey).

If Stevie wants me to fork out $20 - $25 (Yes, that is how much music costs in Australia - a hard copy CD...$16 for digital download iTunes...it is a rip off) for her next album, then she needs to realise I don't care for showy guitar riffs and bass lines at the expense of raw and genuine emotion in the vocals...and I don't care if her piano playing isn't as exemplary as C. McVie's.

Really as a fan...a paying customer actually...I think Stevie should pay more attention to what my opinion, and the opinions of many other fans worldwide are regarding the production of her songs. If only she could be as confident in her instrumental abilites as she is in her singing! Or at the very least: follow the classic rule of Keep It Simple Stupid.