GLBT .... why "T"?

[Macfanforever]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Right now in Australia we have a "gay" marriage debate (yep hate that term) going on. I kind of feel the whole thing is like hitting your head against a brick wall. One day people will realise that gay, straight, black, white, Jewish, Christian, Muslim or whatever, we are all just people breathing the same oxygen and living on the same planet.

I can't put it any better then that.Come on world .Get along..

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

What the hell in an Intersexual? I've never heard that term. Took me forever, to figure out what Metrosexual meant!

Well it isn't someone who is really "in-to-sex"

Without getting too technical (and hey I never said I was an expert), it is pretty much what is often termed "hermaphrodite" or where you have sex organs of both sexes or display characteristics of both sexes. I guess it isn't as simple as that though but you get the idea.

In the broadest sense it is those who can not be classified as either male or female.

There is at least one case I know of where someone born as a man but who felt he was in the wrong body/gender had his sex organs automatically begin to turn him into a woman when he hit his 40's. That really messes with your head if it's true

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Well it isn't someone who is really "in-to-sex"

Without getting too technical (and hey I never said I was an expert), it is pretty much what is often termed "hermaphrodite" or where you have sex organs of both sexes or display characteristics of both sexes. I guess it isn't as simple as that though but you get the idea.

In the broadest sense it is those who can not be classified as either male or female.

There is at least one case I know of where someone born as a man but who felt he was in the wrong body/gender had his sex organs automatically begin to turn him into a woman when he hit his 40's. That really messes with your head if it's true

So it's the same thing as "hermaphrodite"?(of course I knew what that was). I hear Jamie Lee Curtis is a hell of a lay? (talk about a bad joke!)

So this "case study"'s genitals....turned themselves into the opposite gender? Well, sweetbabyjebus, I need pictures of THAT! May we term that "inverted genitology?"

I don't mean that to be mean, at all....but why does the terminology have to constantly change?

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

So it's the same thing as "hermaphrodite"?(of course I knew what that was). I hear Jamie Lee Curtis is a hell of a lay? (talk about a bad joke!)

So this "case study"'s genitals....turned themselves into the opposite gender? Well, sweetbabyjebus, I need pictures of THAT! May we term that "inverted genitology?"

I don't mean that to be mean, at all....but why does the terminology have to constantly change?

Well the term intersex (according to Wikipedia) has been around since the 40's.

A true hermaphrodite has both male and female genitalia, but I think there are a whole lot of other conditions that come under the term "intersex".

[markolas]

Originally Posted by olive

it would be nice if someday if we could ditch the labels and that we might be known as just people.

Maybe, maybe not. In my experience, it's usually straight white people who say this. It's a nice sentiment, but in practice what happens is that it becomes an excuse for the majority to ignore the minority. We and our unique contributions become invisiblized and marginalized.

Originally Posted by chriskisn

My question is not why Transgender people are included in GLBT but why Intersexuals don't generally rate a mention? Is it because the GLBT community is seen more as a lifestyle choice and the intersex community more of a medical condition?

Intersex is often included. None of it has anything to do with "lifestyle choices."

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

I don't mean that to be mean, at all....but why does the terminology have to constantly change?

Because terms are constantly turned into derogatory slurs. "Idiot" and "moron" were originally medical terms, for example.

[olive]

[QUOTE=markolas;1035794]Maybe, maybe not. In my experience, it's usually straight white people who say this. It's a nice sentiment, but in practice what happens is that it becomes an excuse for the majority to ignore the minority. We and our unique contributions become invisiblized and marginalized.

in my experience as a gay man ... gay are their own worst enimies when it comes to labels , I don't understand the need to ""IDENTIFY AS " I cringe when someone tries to stick one on me


drag/leather queen
master/slave
top/bottom
club kid
twinkie
twunk
bear/chub
chaser
muscle bear
daddy
wolf
otter
cub
rice queen
tea room queen
gym bunnie
circuit queen
theater queen
auntie

Pick a fetish and add a life style .

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by markolas

Intersex is often included. None of it has anything to do with "lifestyle choices."

It could be argued that intersex is a physical deformity though, as much as being born with no arms or no legs, or indeed two heads.

I'm yet to see proof whether GLBT is genetic or "lifestyle choice/nurture". You know what though, I don't care which it is, I'm not making that statement as a criticism. People should be allowed to live just as they damn wish.

For example, friends of my wife always wanted to have a boy, and when they had a girl (their only child) they basically treated her more like a son than a daughter. She was given boy toys to play with because the Dad wanted to do boy stuff with his "son". They were horrified and shocked when their daughter grew up and revealed that she was a lesbian.

Originally Posted by markolas

In my experience, it's usually straight white people who say this. It's a nice sentiment, but in practice what happens is that it becomes an excuse for the majority to ignore the minority. We and our unique contributions become invisiblized and marginalized.

Sadly though society discriminates against the majority as much as the minority. You can march in a gay pride parade and people will line the streets to watch. If I marched in a straight pride parade it would be seen as terribly homophobic and outdated.

Two terms. Black Power, White Power. One is seen as the underdog fighting for rights, one brings back memories of Nazi Germany.

So yes, everyone should just be people, without the labels and their contributions as individuals being what we judge them by, not the colour of their skin or their gender or sexual preference.

[HomerMcvie]

Damn, I had to go and learn.

http://www.isna.org/faq/hermaphrodite

[markolas]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Sadly though society discriminates against the majority as much as the minority. You can march in a gay pride parade and people will line the streets to watch. If I marched in a straight pride parade it would be seen as terribly homophobic and outdated.

Two terms. Black Power, White Power. One is seen as the underdog fighting for rights, one brings back memories of Nazi Germany.

This is just so unbelievably ignorant that I don't know where to start. Maybe somebody else has the patience to explain why, but I simply do not. I have to leave this thread.

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by markolas

This is just so unbelievably ignorant that I don't know where to start. Maybe somebody else has the patience to explain why, but I simply do not. I have to leave this thread.

Really? Because I'd definitely not describe myself as ignorant. I'm one of the most pro-equality people you'll meet (and I don't just mean on GLBT issues). Yes I fully understand why minorities need to bring attention to the way they are treated by society, to make changes to the way they are treated/perceived, etc etc.

My point being though, and yes I was being a bit of a devil's advocate, is that no-one should be treated differently because of the person they are (colour, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc). Everyone should have exactly the same rights because we are all equal in terms of being human beings. The little things like who we sleep with, who we pray to, or whatever should never make a difference.

The problem I find and what I don't agree with is that too many people seek to define themselves (or perhaps have forced to define themselves) by their sexual preference. Being gay, straight, bisexual or otherwise is a small part of what makes us human, it is not, nor should not need to be that with which we define who we are.

EDIT: I'm not trying to dismiss the fact that coming out or deciding you were born the wrong gender is an easy process. The suicide rate amongs the homosexual community is testament to that. I don't understand why parents and society make an issue out of whether someone is gay or not. If my son comes to me when he is older and says he is gay, it won't change anything about him will it? He will still be my son and still have all the qualities he had the day before.

[ButterCookie]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

For example, friends of my wife always wanted to have a boy, and when they had a girl (their only child) they basically treated her more like a son than a daughter. She was given boy toys to play with because the Dad wanted to do boy stuff with his "son". They were horrified and shocked when their daughter grew up and revealed that she was a lesbian.

I was given no end of girl toys, pink dresses etc when I was little and I'm a lesbian. I really don't think it's a lifestyle choice/nurture thing. However, with that said, I was shocked to the core when about 3 months after he'd figured me out, my oldest friend whom I've lived next door to and seen almost every day since we were 3 years old, came out to me. Perhaps it is chance, perhaps not. I doubt I'll ever know but it certainly intrigues me.

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by ButterCookie

I was given no end of girl toys, pink dresses etc when I was little and I'm a lesbian. I really don't think it's a lifestyle choice/nurture thing. However, with that said, I was shocked to the core when about 3 months after he'd figured me out, my oldest friend whom I've lived next door to and seen almost every day since we were 3 years old, came out to me. Perhaps it is chance, perhaps not. I doubt I'll ever know but it certainly intrigues me.

I used to work with a guy who had been happily married and had a couple of kids. He then went through a very nasty divorce and hated all women and I mean ALL women. He "turned" gay, and became the campest, bitchiest gay man I have ever known. Perhaps he had just always repressed that side of him?

[bluefox4000]

I don't understand why we must define ourselves by labels either. Tis a sad truth though. I've been lucky......my wife and family were unbelievable supportive of me when I came out as bi. they see me as Mick. It's about time to drop the labels. it makes me sad that we have not moved beyond that.

Mick

[olive]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

I used to work with a guy who had been happily married and had a couple of kids. He then went through a very nasty divorce and hated all women and I mean ALL women. He "turned" gay, and became the campest, bitchiest gay man I have ever known. Perhaps he had just always repressed that side of him?

"He "turned" gay"
really ? so if he did you can too!

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by olive

"He "turned" gay"
really ? so if he did you can too!

See that is the thing isn't it. Is there even such a thing as gay, straight and bi? Or is human sexuality just fluid. Given the right circumstances, who knows who any of us might be attracted to.

My father worked at the prison for many years and a lot of "straight" men would have sex with other (often gay) men. One of them once said "I'm not gay, I just like sex". Given he was in for a long time, I guess maybe that makes sense.

Sure a lot of sex in prison is about power and control, but I wasn't talking about rape, more about consensual relationships between a straight guy and a gay guy.