Shiner or not?

[Bm7th]

I think if it was a bruise she would have a black & blue mark directly under her eye.

[Nickingham]

She could have accidentally bumped herself badly there, or got hit by accident.It happens.Or maybe her and Lindsey had a spat.Who knows.Was this around the time when both of them weren't getting along?It could just be her makeup or blush.

[Regina]

Remember that footage from the (Japanese?) Rumour tour, I think? Must be (Rumours) because Lindsey did not have the Tusk hair yet (editorial comment: yuck on the Tusk hair).

Anyway, Stevie was applying makeup for about 93 minutes of the thing.

My point is, if she had a shiner and wanted to cover it up, that puppy would be covered up.

And, I guess I'm in the camp that doesn't believe Stevie and Lindsey were in an abusive relationship. I think they had that violent confrontation when Lindsey announced his FM departure, but I just don't think this is something Stevie would ever have covered up, considering the fact that she has had plenty to say about him in the past. And, she actually went on record to explain the whole incident with the choking and car and all that to make herself "equally" to blame for the whole, ugly thing. And she pretty much hated the guy, at the time so she had nothing to lose and could have absolutely buried him at the time, which I'm told brings satisfaction to love-hate relationships...so...whatever.

If it is a shiner, she probably just left her glasses at home and banged into another garage door.

[beccamorrisfift]

Originally Posted by Regina

Remember that footage from the (Japanese?) Rumour tour, I think? Must be (Rumours) because Lindsey did not have the Tusk hair yet (editorial comment: yuck on the Tusk hair).

Anyway, Stevie was applying makeup for about 93 minutes of the thing.

My point is, if she had a shiner and wanted to cover it up, that puppy would be covered up.

And, I guess I'm in the camp that doesn't believe Stevie and Lindsey were in an abusive relationship. I think they had that violent confrontation when Lindsey announced his FM departure, but I just don't think this is something Stevie would ever have covered up, considering the fact that she has had plenty to say about him in the past. And, she actually went on record to explain the whole incident with the choking and car and all that to make herself "equally" to blame for the whole, ugly thing. And she pretty much hated the guy, at the time so she had nothing to lose and could have absolutely buried him at the time, which I'm told brings satisfaction to love-hate relationships...so...whatever.

If it is a shiner, she probably just left her glasses at home and banged into another garage door.

GASP ! I love Tusk Lindsey! LOL.

I also think that their relationship wasn't generally abusive, but who really knows except them.

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by Regina

And, I guess I'm in the camp that doesn't believe Stevie and Lindsey were in an abusive relationship. I think they had that violent confrontation when Lindsey announced his FM departure, but I just don't think this is something Stevie would ever have covered up, considering the fact that she has had plenty to say about him in the past. And, she actually went on record to explain the whole incident with the choking and car and all that to make herself "equally" to blame for the whole, ugly thing. And she pretty much hated the guy, at the time so she had nothing to lose and could have absolutely buried him at the time, which I'm told brings satisfaction to love-hate relationships...so...whatever.

If it is a shiner, she probably just left her glasses at home and banged into another garage door.

I'm sorry, Regina, but I can't let that go. Many, many books have been written about the reasons why women don't reveal when their partners hit them. Stevie not saying outright that LB ever hit her means nothing. Nothing. And even if there weren't thousands and thousands of women being hit every day who don't ever tell, I will always believe that Lindsey was violent to Carol Ann Harris, and that when Stevie says things like 'Maybe if we hadn't had the outlet of writing songs, we would've just totally freaked out and killed each other' she is exaggerating, yes, but that there is within that statement a grain of truth about their relationship, i.e. that it was 'tumultuous', 'tempestuous', 'volatile', 'rocky', contained 'darkness' [insert further euphemisms]. There's also the part in CAH's book where she says that Stevie gave her advice on how to handle LB when he's in one of his moods, etc. And the part in Mick's book, about the fight over the car when LB left the band in 87, where Mick says 'Was he going to hit her? He'd done it before.' People say that be read to mean that LB had hit SN earlier in the same episode, but I think that's rather a stretch. I will always read that as Mick meaning LB had hit Stevie earlier in their relationship, perhaps in self-defence, perhaps under extreme provocation, perhaps only ever once. But still, yes, that he'd hit her.

I can well understand not wanting to believe such a thing about LB. But surely the point is that, if it is true, he did the work on himself that it took to overcome his anger problem and is now in a good emotional state? I respect that.

I just think, bottom line, that the argument that LB can't have ever hit Stevie because, if he had, she would have definitely said so doesn't stand up at all. It's not proof of anything. I mean, even if their relationship wasn't as ridiculously convoluted as it is, the fact is a man who hits a woman is a deeply unattractive proposition, even at the rock n roll box office. So why on earth would she taint/bury the FM brand that way?

I realise this is controversial, and boring to some people, and inappropriate to others, and upsetting etc., and I'm PROLONGING IT, but it's a serious subject and I just can't really bear to see the idea go by unchallenged that just because something isn't spoken about means it can't have happened.

[Regina]

Well, I DO agree with you, actually. On a general level. I just don't believe it with Stevie. And, that could very well be simply because I don't want to.

I read Storms and felt a good part of it was absolute crap (but not necessarily TOTALLY untrue crap)--and I do believe Lindsey was out of his mind at that point in time. I mean, should-have-been-institutionalized out of his mind. But, more than anything else, I felt that FM (every single member) were absolute jerks for seeing Lindsey do this/hearing about it, and doing NOTHING. Not a blessed thing. Now, was this a combination of his epilepsy/medications for epilepsy and combinations of recreational drugs or just his general persona? That could be a question for the ages, but it's besides the point. I do believe he was violent with CAH.

I guess I've really ... geez, how do I explain this? On the one hand, I believe Stevie can embellish the truth a bit. I believe she changes her mind/opinions on things a lot. But I kind of believe the essential truth of the moment comes out in what she says. And, I just kind of think--if she had been abused, even if she sort of "blind item"-ed it (and she had enough lovers so there COULD be a doubt about which one she was referring to) she would have said something. I just thought that the time that CAH originally came out with these accusations (the 80s, I believe?) was a time that Stevie and FM couldn't stand Lindsey. They threw him under the bus, as a musician, even. So, I can't imagine that they wouldn't do it as a person, when they could have garnered a certain sympathy and wracked up more fans for their new line-up since the nasty dude was out.

I don't know. Maybe I'm too idealistic about FM and their motives and personalities. Maybe the idea of domestic violence involving people I admire is too much for me to handle. In the "real world" I have no doubt that women hide these types of things for their entire lives. From everyone. So, I guess it's kind of ridiculous to think that Stevie wouldn't, if she felt she had any kind of motive for keeping that secret.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to make light of the situation, is what I'm clumsily trying to say.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Regina

Well, I DO agree with you, actually. On a general level. I just don't believe it with Stevie.

I would agree. There are many reasons to deny or remain silent about domestic abuse: fear, shame, dependency, misplaced loyalty. You can't say what a "typical" person would or would not admit or reveal. However, when you talk about one individual person, I think you can make conclusions about what they might say based on their history and other candid statements they have made.

Stevie said of the Tango fight that Lindsey tried to kill her, that she thought he would kill her and told him her brother and father would get him if he did. From those rather dramatic statements, I don't think she was sugarcoating anything he did or holding back on her description of events, especially when she made those comments, especially when (as you pointed out) they were made at a time when she had left the band and was resentful of FM in general, prompting even John to complain about what a liar she was.

If you're going to say that someone was about to kill you with their bare hands, then I don't think you'd keep the fact that they also slapped or hit you to yourself. As long as you're admitting that their intentions were murderous.

At other times she also apparently said (although the way Mojo wrote it, you can't tell whether it was Stevie or Lindsey speaking, but I assume it was her) with Lindsey sitting right there that he threw a guitar at her. She's also said that he did something to her on stage, although she couldn't rememeber what he did, kicked her or something, she imagined. Then, in more recent years, her memory suddenly became sharper and she said that he threw a guitar at her on stage and she ducked.

She's also discussed that John was angrily chasing Christine around when they were recording Rumours and she had to hide Christine in her room, for protection.

Because she has a record of putting stuff like that out there in the press already, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that in her case, if she and Lindsey had a physically violent relationship during the BN years that she would say so, based on other things she's said. For other women and victims of either sex in general, for Christine even, I would not say that their silence means it didn't happen. Silence means nothing across the board. But based on other incidents of Stevie's non-silence, I don't think it's minimizing the plight of abuse victims to conclude she'd say more if there was more to say.

Michele

[henryscutter]

I know she has mentioned having to walk on eggshells around Lindsey and quieting down her personality for him. In RollingStone she said he was somewhat possesive and controlling. IMO she wants people to know he was a difficult jerk, but I think she also cares about him and wants to protect his reputation.

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by henryscutter

I know she has mentioned having to walk on eggshells around Lindsey and quieting down her personality for him. In RollingStone she said he was somewhat possesive and controlling. IMO she wants people to know he was a difficult jerk, but I think she also cares about him and wants to protect his reputation.

Thank you. You've kind of said what I was going to say.

I think where I really disagree with Regina and Michele is still on the idea that just because Stevie hasn't said exactly that LB hit her, in a way that exactly leaves no doubt, doesn't mean he didn't subject her to behaviours that any normal person would consider 'abusive' in 2011, including striking her on occasion. I have no trouble believing that she was violent towards him on occasion, too.

I also will never agree that Stevie has ever 'hated' LB. I think he has come much, much closer to hating her than she ever came to hating him, and that she and Mick are of one mind when it comes to keeping the FM heart beating. Again, I really think the main thing is that they came through it, and they're happy and creative people today.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

I also will never agree that Stevie has ever 'hated' LB. I think he has come much, much closer to hating her than she ever came to hating him, and that she and Mick are of one mind when it comes to keeping the FM heart beating. Again, I really think the main thing is that they came through it, and they're happy and creative people today.

Oh, I don't think they ever hated each other, any more than you might hate a sibling. I mean, you do hate them, but the love is never absent. There is never a time when you're apathetic about them or wouldn't tremble if bad news arrived about their well-being.

But the band members definitely had a lot of anger after Tango and they pulled no punches in trashing each other. Not only Stevie and Lindsey and Mick and Lindsey, but even though they never parted, John was even upset about some of the things Mick said about him.

Michele

[tabruns]

I don't doubt that Lindsey and Stevie have at times truly hated each other. As the saying goes, "There's a thin line between love and hate" and people that you love have great power to hurt you.

I think one thing that's potentially missing in this dialogue is the time/culture context. Relationship abuse is something that we're more aware of and less accepting of than we were some 30+ years ago. Stevie and Lindsey were in a relationship in the late 60s/early 70s....its quite *possible* that there was physical abuse but at that time it was something that "just happened".

If you think about it both Stevie and Christine left their relationships as soon as they were financially able to do so, thanks to the success of the 'Fleetwood Mac' album. I don't know for certain that it means they were both being abused, but it clearly does mean *something*. We know that John could become a monster when drunk, and as Mick once said Christine finally just had enough. With Lindsey, given the cultural context at the time, I wouldn't be surprised if there was abuse.

[iamnotafraid]

Everyone's seeming to forget that this is the
time period in which Barry was introduced
to the group. And if you've heard the limo
tapes, we all know Barry had a temper.

[beccamorrisfift]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Everyone's seeming to forget that this is the
time period in which Barry was introduced
to the group. And if you've heard the limo
tapes, we all know Barry had a temper.

This might be a stupid question or maybe I'm just missing an innuendo, as I have only been awake ten minutes, but who's Barry ?

[Aussie W/Heart]

So who is this Barry character? Limo tapes also sound interesting, would love to hear them, are they posted on youtube??

[jannieC]

Barry is iamnotafraid's imaginary friend.