Billboard Chart

[Jondalar]

I just think that blaming WB is crap. She hasn't even came out with a new album since 2001 and remember Say You Will never even went platinum in 2003. Street Angel was a true flop. This album isn't a flop. Compare the sells with others and she is doing pretty good.

[Christopher]

Originally Posted by APerfectLie

Just because Stevie seems to be working harder at promoting it does not mean WB is. Because honestly, they aren't.

I believe your original response was in disagreement to the notion that IYD has had more "promotion" than TISL. Just because WBR & VH1 teamed up for one month to push TISL in May 2001, & played her new videos in moderate rotation does not = more promotion. WBR obviously had higher hopes for Stevie's TISL coming off The Dance's momentum. And one must keep in perspective the marketing mediums & budgets for Artists 10 years ago compared with today is night & day!

Promotion is promotion! Doesn't matter if it's generated from WBR or from Stevie directly along with her management team & publicists. There is no question Stevie has worked every promotional opportunity more aggressively this time out, then she did with TISL. WBR cannot force VH1 or radio to play Stevie's new tunes. Also different is there are basically no music store chains available for promotional posters, etc. The promotion landscape is sooo different and with Stevie also 10 years older, marketing her is even more tricky. WBR is basically her big worldwide distributer with most of their attention focused on Stevie's & FM's catalog at this point. However, they did set up decent presence on the net: http://stevienicks.warnerreprise.com/ Facebook, MySpace, YouTube & Twitter. Has everything been perfect? Hell no! We'll always think they should have picked this single or done so and so differently, but looking back there has most definitely been more overall promotion. And all in, IYD has sold very respectably and no one can call this record a flop. It has succeeded on so many levels. I bet WBR is pleased with IYD performance so far, as well as the increase of all FM's & Stevie's catalog sales due to her higher profile with this record.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by Christopher

Promotion is promotion! Doesn't matter if it's generated from WBR or from Stevie directly along with her management team & publicists. There is no question Stevie has worked every promotional opportunity more aggressively this time out, then she did with TISL. WBR cannot force VH1 or radio to play Stevie's new tunes. Also different is there are basically no music store chains available for promotional posters, etc. The promotion landscape is sooo different and with Stevie also 10 years older, marketing her is even more tricky. WBR is basically her big worldwide distributer with most of their attention focused on Stevie's & FM's catalog at this point. However, they did set up decent presence on the net: http://stevienicks.warnerreprise.com/ Facebook, MySpace, YouTube & Twitter. Has everything been perfect? Hell no! We'll always think they should have picked this single or done so and so differently, but looking back there has most definitely been more overall promotion. And all in, IYD has sold very respectably and no one can call this record a flop. It has succeeded on so many levels. I bet WBR is pleased with IYD performance so far, as well as the increase of all FM's & Stevie's catalog sales due to her higher profile with this record.

Nobody is disagreeing that WB had ideas for promoting the album via social media, singles, videos, websites, etc. But the execution was terribly flawed. Allowing a lead single to flop around in limbo for months without a video was just downright stupid. Same with FWIW, whose selection as a radio single was another unfortunate boner. Given the number of strong, radio-friendly songs and all of the videos that are sitting in the can, they should have fired off one single after another every couple of months; they should be working single #4 by now. And the fact that they are not pushing the title track as a single is baffling to me. This is not the type of album that has one monster hit single and a bunch of filler; this is an album that is strong due to its consistent high quality and diversity. As it is now, the public at large is not hearing this due to the release of two of the more tepid, uncatchy songs as singles that are not at all representative of the album as a whole. There is so much opportunity to capitalize on Stevie's latent resurgence as a bit of a hip gothic elder stateswoman, but WB just doesn't get it.

[Christopher]

One thing thats become clear & consistent is that Stevie's fans will never be completely satisfied or happy with the way a Stevie Nicks album is promoted & executed, from the singles all the way down the line. Down the rabbit hole we go :-/

[Jondalar]

TISL became gold because Stevie just came off The Dance and because of the VH1 presale. She doesn't have either and record sales are horrible for the entire industry. The Dance was a phenominon. I don't think people remember that before the Dance, Stevie was considered a has-been and didn't have a chance in hell of any later going gold. Enchanted and TISL both went gold.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by Christopher

One thing thats become clear & consistent is that Stevie's fans will never be completely satisfied or happy with the way a Stevie Nicks album is promoted & executed, from the singles all the way down the line. Down the rabbit hole we go :-/

Indeed. I just think its too easy to armchair quarterback, especially in fields in which we aren't even trained. I agree with Jondalar that Stevie has been out there much more promoting this album than she was TISL. The sales are low compared to a decade ago because everyone's sales are lower compared to a decade ago. IYD moving nearly 150,000 units so far is actually very good.

[Jondalar]

Think about this: Katy Perry has sold 1.5 million copies of Teenage Dream. She has had 5 singles from that album hit number 1. That is about 300,000 copies per number 1 single. Horrible.

Stevie's songs aren't even getting any airplay, plus, she has nowhere to play her videos. It's not her record company doing that. It's the radio and television people who say what gets played. Rock is dead. Country is in, even more so than R&B and Soul. She doesn't even have popular format to promote IYD. I wish that country radio would start playing In Your Dreams, Wide Sargasso Sea or Cheaper than Free. She needs some of that country audience because they are loyal fans. However, record sales just blow.

[KarmaContestant]

I've have to disagree with the sentiment that WB can do nothing to get Stevie more radio/video airplay, and in fact, I am totally certain that WB could get Stevie as much airplay as they're willing to pay for.

Just like cigarettes, soda pop, kid's cereal and prescription drugs (especially anti-depressants, cholesterol and boner pills), music is subjected to the same kickback promotions. Record labels pay incentives to radio to play what they want to get played. Coke pays Kroger for the end-spot on the shelf they occupy. Phillip-Morris pays tens of millions in retailer incentives to make sure Marlboro is always right at eye level in any store that sells their cigarettes. In fact, Phillip-Morris even pays to make sure that certain other cigarette brands are totally out of sight. Phillip-Morris and Coke even penalize retailers who violate these 'branding incentives' by ensuring that competing retailers will have lower prices. You mess with Marlboro? They'll make sure your smokes are 2 dollars more a pack than everyone around you. (I worked in the tobacco industry)

Eli Lilly pays doctors incentives to suggest and prescribe prozac over other competing anti-depressants. Wonder why doctors don't tell people to eat a damn apple from time to time? Because they earn incentives for prescribing Lipitor instead. The apple growers? They don't pay.

I'm pretty sure Clear Channel collects millions of dollars monthly in record label payouts to get particular songs in an hourly rotation on their nation-wide radio monopolies. You really think anyone wanted to hear Ke$ha's Tick Tock on an hourly basis for 6 months?

The key to all of this is that the incentives must be less in cost than the profit returns.

[Macfanforever]

Back in the old days.I remember artists used to drive to radio stations and beg at the station
PD's and Station jocks to play their new music. As I remember in the Loretta Lynn movie "Coal Miners Daugther".Also there was payola back in the 1950's.Yea I dont want to see Stevie and her people in the clink.Anyway I've been scouting around on the Google books site reading old Billboard issues .I found alot of Stevie/FM mentions in them also photos two.

[APerfectLie]

Originally Posted by Christopher

I believe your original response was in disagreement to the notion that IYD has had more "promotion" than TISL. Just because WBR & VH1 teamed up for one month to push TISL in May 2001, & played her new videos in moderate rotation does not = more promotion. WBR obviously had higher hopes for Stevie's TISL coming off The Dance's momentum. And one must keep in perspective the marketing mediums & budgets for Artists 10 years ago compared with today is night & day!

Promotion is promotion! Doesn't matter if it's generated from WBR or from Stevie directly along with her management team & publicists. There is no question Stevie has worked every promotional opportunity more aggressively this time out, then she did with TISL. WBR cannot force VH1 or radio to play Stevie's new tunes. Also different is there are basically no music store chains available for promotional posters, etc. The promotion landscape is sooo different and with Stevie also 10 years older, marketing her is even more tricky. WBR is basically her big worldwide distributer with most of their attention focused on Stevie's & FM's catalog at this point. However, they did set up decent presence on the net: http://stevienicks.warnerreprise.com/ Facebook, MySpace, YouTube & Twitter. Has everything been perfect? Hell no! We'll always think they should have picked this single or done so and so differently, but looking back there has most definitely been more overall promotion. And all in, IYD has sold very respectably and no one can call this record a flop. It has succeeded on so many levels. I bet WBR is pleased with IYD performance so far, as well as the increase of all FM's & Stevie's catalog sales due to her higher profile with this record.

Promotion from WB. Macfanforever stated that he blamed WB for not promoting the album, to which Jondalar replied that it had more promotion than TISL, to which I replied that WB has not promoted IYD more than they did TISL. And actually, a month of Stevie being on TV every day = more promotion than 10 or so TV appearances within the span of four months.

Also, I never said this record was a flop, rather that WB has not promoted it.

[APerfectLie]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Think about this: Katy Perry has sold 1.5 million copies of Teenage Dream. She has had 5 singles from that album hit number 1. That is about 300,000 copies per number 1 single. Horrible.

Stevie's songs aren't even getting any airplay, plus, she has nowhere to play her videos. It's not her record company doing that. It's the radio and television people who say what gets played. Rock is dead. Country is in, even more so than R&B and Soul. She doesn't even have popular format to promote IYD. I wish that country radio would start playing In Your Dreams, Wide Sargasso Sea or Cheaper than Free. She needs some of that country audience because they are loyal fans. However, record sales just blow.

But Katy Perry's album has sold about 20 MILLION singles. That is 4 million a single! How many platinum singles has Fleetwood Mac had?

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by APerfectLie

But Katy Perry's album has sold about 20 MILLION singles. That is 4 million a single! How many platinum singles has Fleetwood Mac had?

Jondalar isn't arguing that Katy Perry isn't good. He's making the case that album sales have tanked all around.

Plus this is Katy Perry's time, just like the 70s were Fleetwood Mac's time.

[Christopher]

Originally Posted by APerfectLie

Promotion from WB. Macfanforever stated that he blamed WB for not promoting the album, to which Jondalar replied that it had more promotion than TISL, to which I replied that WB has not promoted IYD more than they did TISL. And actually, a month of Stevie being on TV every day = more promotion than 10 or so TV appearances within the span of four months.

Also, I never said this record was a flop, rather that WB has not promoted it.

I never said you called this album a flop. That statement was made in general. And about promotion of TISL tied to VH1, specifically naming Stevie their "artist of the month" during May of 2001, I recall being disappointed that they didn't play her more that month - her exposure was pretty anti-climatic. The biggest bang of promotional pay off was their "Hear Music First" campaign on VH1.com. Where you could pre-order TISL a week or so before the official street date, receiving a pass code to access a Windows Media stream of the entire album, and users could also access the album's artwork, lyrics, and liner notes, as well as interviews. That paid off handsomely, accounting for half of all her Internet album sales. There's no doubt that Stevie's VH1 tie-in was attributable to TISL's gold selling success (achieved in 6 weeks), but after the month of May ended...so went most of Stevie's exposure, and the album dropped off precipitously as usual.

Anyway, I think its debatable that her month long VH1 daily exposure for a month = more promotion!? Especially in today's barely existent music channel format. 10 years ago VH1 viewership averaged @5-10 million daily viewers. Today VH1 is lucky if a single show tops the 1 million viewership mark! Meanwhile all the national TV shows Stevie's performed on: Oprah, The Voice, America's Got Talent, Dancing With The Stars etc., have had viewerships in the 10-15 million range! Not to mention Glee, Ellen, The Tonight Show, GMA, Entertainment Tonight etc etc...

Anyway, this is a long way to go. I'm done - this debate is speculatively exhausting. Because even if WBR were giving it their all, with all the promotion in the world. Album sales are 50+% down from where they were 10 years ago, and Stevie's always been more of an album artist (that luckily had top 40 hits) Add into that, WBR is promoting a sixty-something legacy artist now, and as Jondalar accurately pointed out, the rock genre is even more in tatters with its sales decline. It's all good. Stevie is proud of this record, as evident of her beaming radiance on all these shows that she's working her a$$ off on. *hums* "She works hard for the money and you better treat her right!"

[APerfectLie]

Originally Posted by tabruns

Jondalar isn't arguing that Katy Perry isn't good. He's making the case that album sales have tanked all around.

Plus this is Katy Perry's time, just like the 70s were Fleetwood Mac's time.

Nether did I. The answer to my question is none. Fleetwood Mac only has two GOLD singles. Katy Perry has had 9 singles reach Platinum status, with most reaching 3-4x Platinum. Point being that while album sales may be down and Katy Perry's 1.7 million is horrendous compared to album sales of the 70s, singles sales are WAY WAY WAY up. So really, sales today aren't as dismal as many would like to believe.

Originally Posted by Christopher

I never said you called this album a flop. That statement was made in general. And about promotion of TISL tied to VH1, specifically naming Stevie their "artist of the month" during May of 2001, I recall being disappointed that they didn't play her more that month - her exposure was pretty anti-climatic. The biggest bang of promotional pay off was their "Hear Music First" campaign on VH1.com. Where you could pre-order TISL a week or so before the official street date, receiving a pass code to access a Windows Media stream of the entire album, and users could also access the album's artwork, lyrics, and liner notes, as well as interviews. That paid off handsomely, accounting for half of all her Internet album sales. There's no doubt that Stevie's VH1 tie-in was attributable to TISL's gold selling success (achieved in 6 weeks), but after the month of May ended...so went most of Stevie's exposure, and the album dropped off precipitously as usual.

Anyway, I think its debatable that her month long VH1 daily exposure for a month = more promotion!? Especially in today's barely existent music channel format. 10 years ago VH1 viewership averaged @5-10 million daily viewers. Today VH1 is lucky if a single show tops the 1 million viewership mark! Meanwhile all the national TV shows Stevie's performed on: Oprah, The Voice, America's Got Talent, Dancing With The Stars etc., have had viewerships in the 10-15 million range! Not to mention Glee, Ellen, The Tonight Show, GMA, Entertainment Tonight etc etc...

Anyway, this is a long way to go. I'm done - this debate is speculatively exhausting. Because even if WBR were giving it their all, with all the promotion in the world. Album sales are 50+% down from where they were 10 years ago, and Stevie's always been more of an album artist (that luckily had top 40 hits) Add into that, WBR is promoting a sixty-something legacy artist now, and as Jondalar accurately pointed out, the rock genre is even more in tatters with its sales decline. It's all good. Stevie is proud of this record, as evident of her beaming radiance on all these shows that she's working her a$$ off on. *hums* "She works hard for the money and you better treat her right!"

I already listed all the things Stevie was on during that month on VH1. VH1 may not have the same ratings it had years ago, but nobody is saying she should have had anything to do with VH1 for IYD. What we are saying is that unlike in 2001, WB did not make any exclusive deals or promotional packages like they did with VH1. And you are right. Sales are down and even WB best attempts at marketing the album probably would not have done much. But anyone who believes WB put more effort into promoting IYD than they did TISL is severely deluded.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by APerfectLie

Nether did I. The answer to my question is none. Fleetwood Mac only has two GOLD singles. Katy Perry has had 9 singles reach Platinum status, with most reaching 3-4x Platinum. Point being that while album sales may be down and Katy Perry's 1.7 million is horrendous compared to album sales of the 70s, singles sales are WAY WAY WAY up. So really, sales today aren't as dismal as many would like to believe.



I already listed all the things Stevie was on during that month on VH1. VH1 may not have the same ratings it had years ago, but nobody is saying she should have had anything to do with VH1 for IYD. What we are saying is that unlike in 2001, WB did not make any exclusive deals or promotional packages like they did with VH1. And you are right. Sales are down and even WB best attempts at marketing the album probably would not have done much. But anyone who believes WB put more effort into promoting IYD than they did TISL is severely deluded.

Or they just disagree with you. Maybe you're the deluded one? What do you have to prove your point, other than WB didn't make a deal with VH1 (which as Christopher pointed out actually is LESS exposure than the shows Stevie *has* done), and that IYD has sold less than TISL, which several people have pointed out is a sign of the times, especially for legacy artists of Nicks' age. You're correct that Mac didn't have multiple platinum singles....most artists of that era didn't. They had huge album sales. Your point about singles only proves that singles sell big now for *current* artists, and that's all your point proves.

My gripe with you is that its really easy to sit back and bitch about "what all WB did wrong" but you really don't have any evidence for it, and unless you have years of experience as a record company marketing exec, I doubt you're qualified to say anything at all really.