Why was Stevie the breakout star?

[MrStevie]

Originally Posted by tabruns

If she was unhappy with his production my guess would be that it was on the single version of "Say You Will" and possibly the new version of "Smile At You" (though, its kind of odd that she'd go along with the recording if she didn't really like it....)

If she was unhappy with "Smile At You" it's her own fault. Fans hate the SYW version because it's missing the venom of the original. Stevie's the one who wanted the song defanged. She said she didn't feel angry anymore so she didn't want the song to be angry anymore. Blame her not Lindsey. I also don't think it was Lindsey's idea to have a children's chorus on the song SYW. I'd bet my life Stevie wanted it. That's what ruins the song for me.

[WildHearted]

I think Stevie's vocal on Smile at You is perfectly fine. It's the arrangement I'm not keen on.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

Well, at this point in their lives, as far as we know, both Stevie and Christine are single and childless. So I'm not clear what Chris kept that Stevie was prepared to give up? I think they both passed on motherhood in favour of their career. Chris just retired earlier.

Chris wAs certainly more successful in sustaining long term relationships. Yes she's divorced but was married for quite a long time. (And frankly marriage isnt the only measure of a successful relationship) She didn't battle addiction--twice. And she never seemed to lose her sense of herself in all the fame

Why do you assume marriage and motherhood are the only measure of a woman's success??

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

Chris wAs certainly more successful in sustaining long term relationships. Yes she's divorced but was married for quite a long time. (And frankly marriage isnt the only measure of a successful relationship) She didn't battle addiction--twice. And she never seemed to lose her sense of herself in all the fame

Why do you assume marriage and motherhood are the only measure of a woman's success??

I don't assume that, actually, and thank you for answering my question, which was genuinely asking what you thought Stevie gave up that Christine didn't. Your list makes sense, in some ways I hadn't thought of.

But I'm not sure we agree in how we judge the 'facts' of Christine McVie's life. For instance, considering she's now 68, I don't think she was married for 'quite a long time'. Marriage to John barely lasted a decade; Eddie Quintela seems to have lasted longer, but maybe not by much, 12-15 years tops I would guess. Also, remember that she married John two weeks after she met him, which makes Stevie's marriage to Kim look positively well-considered!

Addiction is, again, a matter of opinion. Christine definitely drank a lot, and smoked like a chimney. We know she did coke, too. Stevie often says she was the only one who went to rehab, but to me that doesn't mean she was the only one who had a problem. Don't get me wrong: Stevie's substance abuse was definitely 'worse' - she did more, did it in a way that became very obvious, and let it get to life-threatening levels. But I don't think all the rest of them, including Christine, never leaned on chemical crutches from time to time, as well.

Where I totally agree with you is that Christine never lost her sense of herself. Interestingly, this is (for me) paradoxically why I find Stevie the more interesting artist. Christine's 'self' is essentially a pretty grounded, intelligent, easy-going, modest, and less conflicted, person. I'd bet my car that if I met her, we'd get on like a house on fire! But most of the artists I really dig are nothing like me, so I guess that's why I'm drawn to Miss Stevie.

The reason I gravitate towards motherhood as something both women 'gave up' is because I do have a hunch that that is the biggest sacrifice they made for their careers. It's still an issue that requires thought for women today, and the 60s, 70s and 80s was far worse in terms of society's view that mums should just be mums and not work at the same time. Obviously, we have quite a lot of evidence from her own mouth that not being a mum was a difficult choice for Stevie. But you're right, we don't have as much - if any - evidence that Chris felt any conflict there. She might have been very clear, her whole life, that she didn't want kids, and that's great, in fact I'm that way myself. So I shouldn't have lumped Christine in with Stevie on that score, and I stand corrected.

I guess I just think we're getting off on the wrong foot from the start, to say, as you did, that 'Christine wasn't willing to give up everything else for that kind of fame'. She didn't want it. And it doesn't make sense to give up anything for something you don't want. Stevie actually reported almost this very truth, when she said that she and Chris were talking about Chris's retiral from FM and she said to Stevie: 'This is your passion. It's not mine.' So, it wasn't that she wasn't less willing than Stevie to give anything up; rather, that they simply never craved the same thing.

Last of all on this, it's interesting that LB said recently that he imagined Christine's life nowadays must get a little 'one-dimensional for her', because that's so illuminating of the fundamental differences I've always thought were there between Lindsey-and-Stevie and Christine-and-John. LB and SN were/are artistically narcissists; CM and JM are musicians. (Mick, I think, is a fascinating half n half!) It is very difficult for a narcissist to imagine someone else not feeling the way they do themselves about anything. So LB struggles to believe that Chris is happy without making music. But she probably is. I do hope so (but I'd like to see her come back too).

Sorry this reply was so long.

Loz

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by MrStevie

That's not the same thing as her saying she didn't like his work. She never took any shots at the SYW album until many years after...when it didn't go platinum, but I don't recall her ever saying she was unhappy with Lindsey's efforts. I do recall her complaining about the SYW tour many years later.

Oh, I don't think it was "many years" after. I think it was when she did her first interviews after the tour was over, when she was preparing for Caesar's Palace. Plus, it seemed clear that there had been friction between early on during the SYW promotion, when he started the "she never thanked me" plaint. Yes she made comments saying it was the best work both of them had ever done, but she wasn't sounding that enthusiastic to me. But then they seemed to kiss and make up.

But I do agree that after they apparently fought at the end of the tour, her earlier luke warmness over the album returned with a vengeance and became heated dismay.

Michele

[MrStevie]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Oh, I don't think it was "many years" after. I think it was when she did her first interviews after the tour was over, when she was preparing for Caesar's Palace.

I heard most of the Caesar's interviews. I don't remember her firing shots until she was into her Crystal Visions promos. You might have me there. Got a pointer to her earlier gripes where I can read em?

Plus, it seemed clear that there had been friction between early on during the SYW promotion, when he started the "she never thanked me" plaint. Yes she made comments saying it was the best work both of them had ever done, but she wasn't sounding that enthusiastic to me. But then they seemed to kiss and make up.

But I do agree that after they apparently fought at the end of the tour, her earlier luke warmness over the album returned with a vengeance and became heated dismay.

Michele

Their back and forth is just a lot a hooey.

[On Ice]

Another factor that I think lead to Stevie's star power back in the day was the way a band was promoted. There was always a spotlight towards the lead singer and Stevie was marketed on radio a lot as Fleetwood Mac's lead singer. I remember songs being introduced as Stevie Nicks and Fleetwood Mac. Same could be said for other bands, ie Don Henley and the Eagles. Oddly enough, Christine had the lionshare of singles but wasn't considered as the lead singer, hence the focus on Stevie. As an early fan too, I always thought of Stevie as the lead singer of the band.

[mikephxaz]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Yes, he'd like to sell more, but he'd like to do it on his own terms. He wants you to like his stuff as it is. He doesn't want to change to make his stuff palatable to you. He'd rather convert than change. He had songs other than Red Rover he could have put on SYW, songs other than Red Rover he could have played in concert, but he wanted a large audience to hear Red Rover whether they wanted to or not. It's not that he doesn't want to sell, it's that given the choice between selling and not selling out, he does the latter. He'd like to have both worlds, but not badly enough.

It's not like he's blind and doesn't understand why no one likes his stuff and has been looking for a way out of his own head, staying up at night going: "Why isn't this working?" Michele

Isn't this the definition of insular. I'm not suggesting that an artist shouldn't create their art for themselves alone. The question was why was Stevie the standout. Lindsey can afford to put out the music he wants to put out. My hats off to him.

[glamorousnymph]

Originally Posted by Brad

Stevie loves bringing this up to play the martyr. Give me a break. Neither of their families was by any means hurting for money, so I seriously doubt she was "supporting" anyone. At best, she probably waited tables a few days a week to supplement their monthly allowances from mom and dad for their pot habit.

I know that's not exactly the topic at hand, but I've always found this story of hers to be very annoying and worthy of an eye roll.

Don't forget sewing flowers on Lindsey's jeans and making nightly Hamburger Helper.

I don't know about Stevie working harder at it. She likes to talk a lot about how hard she has worked ("always on call") but she has been very babied all her life, too. She didnt have much to do in the studio with FM. She surrounded herself with supporters. She partied all the time and she did go on vacation. She slept with the men she worked with, probably partly because she started out like that with Lindsey, but maybe partly to get what she wanted from them. And Tom Petty said her work ethic wasn't exactly in line with the Heartbreakers'. Yes, she balanced her band life with solo career, which could not have been easy, especially in the day of videos and so many interviews. However, when she was on tour (Two nights on, two nights off, etc.) wasn't Lindsey always working on music? It wasn't like he was sitting back and doing nothing.

She always felt the need to prove herself to Lindsey and win; that bitterness with him has been a HUGE motivator in her life, I think. Maybe she wanted it more in that way because she has always needed his approval, and he has not always needed hers in the same way. I'm sure it got under his skin tremendously that she became such a solo star, but obviously he didn't go overly commercial in order to compete. So I think yes, she wanted it more and tried harder, but as far as being a harder worker, I'm just not buying it.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by MrStevie

If she was unhappy with "Smile At You" it's her own fault. Fans hate the SYW version because it's missing the venom of the original. Stevie's the one who wanted the song defanged. She said she didn't feel angry anymore so she didn't want the song to be angry anymore. Blame her not Lindsey. I also don't think it was Lindsey's idea to have a children's chorus on the song SYW. I'd bet my life Stevie wanted it. That's what ruins the song for me.

I don't blame either one. I like Say You Will as is.

All I was doing was speculating why Stevie might be griping about how her songs on Say You Will came out. If she has a complaint about "Say You Will" (the song) my guess would be that the single version really amped up the guitar and she might not have been keen about that. I doubt it has anything to do with the childrens chorus that you don't like.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by mikephxaz

Isn't this the definition of insular. I'm not suggesting that an artist shouldn't create their art for themselves alone. The question was why was Stevie the standout. Lindsey can afford to put out the music he wants to put out. My hats off to him.

Yes, but your comments seemed to be describing what he should do, as opposed to why Stevie was the stand out. I didn't realize you were answering the stand out question.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by glamorousnymph

She always felt the need to prove herself to Lindsey and win; that bitterness with him has been a HUGE motivator in her life, I think. Maybe she wanted it more in that way because she has always needed his approval, and he has not always needed hers in the same way. I'm sure it got under his skin tremendously that she became such a solo star, but obviously he didn't go overly commercial in order to compete. So I think yes, she wanted it more and tried harder, but as far as being a harder worker, I'm just not buying it.

True, even forgetting the studio work, she doesn't even work harder on stage than Lindsey does.

She works more stages, because she is more in demand and can tour more. But when he does tour, he works harder in and out of FM. What she does do more than he does is more P.R.

If the press wanted to talk to Lindsey as much as Stevie I don't know whether he would make himself available or if he'd just do a set number of interviews and then no more. He's kind of a ham and he does like to talk to a certain extent, so maybe if they wanted him as much, he'd oblige. On the other hand . . .

I know we have that one video where he doesn't want to do a press conference after a show and he leaves with Carol Ann. Christine is all bummed because she has to stay. Also, when they did that FM interview there was tension at the start, because Lindsey called in late, I think and all the others were there. So, in that respect, the press and publicity, maybe Stevie worked harder than all of them. Mick is willing to do tons of press too.

Michele

[jellyman10]

^^^ They do say the definition of work is something you have to do when you'd rather be doing something else. So if you look at it like that, there aren't enough hours in the day to be playing with knobs in a studio, for LB, or nattering away endlessly to interviewers, for SN. I say they're equally lazy/industrious at the things they dislike/enjoy. In other words, just like me!

[michelej1]

Mick not only does press, but he'll stay in the studio all night as well and I think he's quite charismatic. If Mick had been a good looking guy, heaven help us. People would be going, Ringo who? [J/K you Beatles fans].

Mick is very unique. He's got an extraordinary bond with all of them. And I don't mean that in just a loving sense. I'm sure he's caused them all a lot of frustration as well. But if any of them had to do a list of the top 5 most influential people in their lives, whether influential for good or bad, I think Mick would make the cut for each of them.

And I'm sure he'd have to be on Peter Green's list as well. Michele

[GoldDustWoman22]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Mick not only does press, but he'll stay in the studio all night as well and I think he's quite charismatic. If Mick had been a good looking guy, heaven help us. People would be going, Ringo who? [J/K you Beatles fans].

Mick is very unique. He's got an extraordinary bond with all of them. And I don't mean that in just a loving sense. I'm sure he's caused them all a lot of frustration as well. But if any of them had to do a list of the top 5 most influential people in their lives, whether influential for good or bad, I think Mick would make the cut for each of them.

And I'm sure he'd have to be on Peter Green's list as well. Michele

Yes I love Mick. One of my favorite things is his charisma! It's funny because onstage he is so crazy...almost like a madman. However, as soon as he is interviewed he is this charming english gent who I could totally fall hard for...already have And I personally think he is smokin'!!