Lindsey's thoughts on BN on cd...

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I just said that I didn't have enough details about the Buckingham Nicks photo shoot. She said she was crying and already posing when Lindsey said, "you're being childish." I want to know what he was saying before they got to the naked, posing stage and if he was joining with the photographers in telling her to take her shirt off.

In some long ago interview Stevie said she was told in advance she would be posing topless so she went out and bought a beautiful top figuring it would impress the men so much that they wouldn't ask her to take off her shirt.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by vivfox

In some long ago interview Stevie said she was told in advance she would be posing topless so she went out and bought a beautiful top figuring it would impress the men so much that they wouldn't ask her to take off her shirt.

I know that she said she negotiated with them and that as a result she said they agreed to do half the photos with the blouse on:

'Oh, I'll win. They'll love this blouse, and they're gonna love the way I look.' Well halfway through the session, one of the photographers came over and said, 'Okay, it's time to take off the blouse,' and I died. it was awful, you know.

Michele

[MrStevie]

Waddy was involved in the photo shoot. He said Stevie never protested taking her top off. He said her Dad was mad about it. I agree the Lindsey who forced Stevie to get naked sounds like a different man than that other dude she describes so often. Is this the same guy she said would get upset when she wore revealing clothes on stage and danced too sexy in front of other men? Thousands of other men have seen the BN cover. Drool ruined my first copy.

[Aussie W/Heart]

I think it was wrong of them to insist she must do the photo shoot topless in the first place, when clearly she really DID NOT want to do it... Its not a matter of being childish, no doubt embarrassment, humiliation understandably were her feelings on that day . If you turned it around, and insisted on Lindsey going naked in front of female photographer's, I'm sure he would felt the same way.. So childish NO, pushed into it Yes!!! & that's not good!!

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Aussie W/Heart

I think it was wrong of them to insist she must do the photo shoot topless in the first place, when clearly she really DID NOT want to do it... Its not a matter of being childish, no doubt embarrassment, humiliation understandably were her feelings on that day . If you turned it around, and insisted on Lindsey going naked in front of female photographer's, I'm sure he would felt the same way.. So childish NO, pushed into it Yes!!! & that's not good!!

And my point is, if all Lindsey said was "you're being childish. This is art," that doesn't sound like pushing her into it to me. He probably said more than that, but if he did she hasn't recounted what more he said. That's why I likened it to the Seinfeld "yadda, yadda, yadda" summaries, because so much has been skimmed over in the telling. Facts that may shed a different light on events. More obviously happened, but I have no idea what it was.

Michele

[MrStevie]

Originally Posted by Aussie W/Heart

I think it was wrong of them to insist she must do the photo shoot topless in the first place, when clearly she really DID NOT want to do it... Its not a matter of being childish, no doubt embarrassment, humiliation understandably were her feelings on that day . If you turned it around, and insisted on Lindsey going naked in front of female photographer's, I'm sure he would felt the same way.. So childish NO, pushed into it Yes!!! & that's not good!!

I am with you if that really happened. I don't believe it happened that way. She tells it differently all the time and it seems she wants to promote false modesty. When her Dad was alive she had to say something. Now she's diggin in her heels no matter how bad it makes Lindsey look to fans. I wonder if she told her family he made her do it? According to that new article they all just loved him. Her grandfather really loved him because he saw how happy she was with him. That was no doubt before the cover shoot.

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by MrStevie

Waddy was involved in the photo shoot. He said Stevie never protested taking her top off. He said her Dad was mad about it. I agree the Lindsey who forced Stevie to get naked sounds like a different man than that other dude she describes so often. Is this the same guy she said would get upset when she wore revealing clothes on stage and danced too sexy in front of other men? Thousands of other men have seen the BN cover. Drool ruined my first copy.

See, with respect, this is what's so ridiculous about this whole discussion. 'Waddy was involved in the photo shoot' - what does that mean? Was he there the whole time? Did he hear every word Stevie said to everyone, including on the way there and on the way home? Is it possible that she expressed her reluctance in a non-verbal way that someone who wasn't stoned, absent, male or otherwise oblivious might have noticed?

We don't have all the facts. We're all just latching on to the bits that support the way we feel about what we think happened, based on which character we like the most, and I want to out myself here and now as someone whose buttons get royally pushed by sexism against women artists, of which I believe the BN cover is an instance. It's just a giant red rag to me, folks, and that's not gonna change.

Cheerie, though!
Loz

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I didn't notice him massively insult or disregard anyone's opinion. I saw him needle her with the Thrown Down comment, but I'd hardly call that a massive insult, especially when he opted to say nothing and sidestep a larger argument when she defended her songwriting and fed him the Bob Dylan line.

You say 'needle', I say 'massively insult'. I wouldn't have been even as polite as Stevie was, if someone I'm supposed to be creating with patronised me like that.

The 'larger argument' you're referring to is, I take it, that he expressly did not say 'Stevie, you're no Bob Dylan'. Well, a cat can look at a king, and here's a newsflash, Lindsey: neither are you. And neither is anyone else. The only person who is 'a' Bob Dylan is Bob Dylan, and the only person who is 'a' Stevie Nicks is Stevie Nicks.

She has the right to be judged for her own work, and I do think that Lindsey overstepped the mark when he took on her lyrics because she wouldn't do that to him, kvetching about GYOW notwithstanding because she has expressly said that, as much as she hated it, she would never ask him to change it because that was his reality and a writer has to write what's real to them.

She also has had decades of sharing authority over the musical side of her songs, which means keeping as much authority as possible over the lyrics assumes even greater weight. Granted, no one was stopping Stevie from becoming a better musician or arranger or producer, but that's not her forte - words and melodies are her forte, and LB should and does know that better than anyone, and yet he still waded in - which is, of course, why Stevie found collaborating with Dave such a refreshing change!

Loz

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by MrStevie

I am with you if that really happened. I don't believe it happened that way. She tells it differently all the time and it seems she wants to promote false modesty. When her Dad was alive she had to say something. Now she's diggin in her heels no matter how bad it makes Lindsey look to fans. I wonder if she told her family he made her do it? According to that new article they all just loved him. Her grandfather really loved him because he saw how happy she was with him. That was no doubt before the cover shoot.

Cracked me up when she said on The Chris Isaak Show how her grandfather was jealous when she showed him the BN album. I thought it was funny he wasn't infuriated about her being topless, just envious of her getting an album cut.

Definitely more to the story. This was the girl who was hell bent on a career in music, had been dishing it out at local diners making connections, couldn't stand it when Lindsey did solo gigs and would have been thrilled to tour the steak house circuit. I can't see her letting a little fabric get in the way of her/their big break. No way. Besides, what's the big deal? She's pressed up against Lindsey, you can't see anything. Didn't she sleep with the guy like that anyway?

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

Definitely more to the story. This was the girl who was hell bent on a career in music, had been dishing it out at local diners making connections, couldn't stand it when Lindsey did solo gigs and would have been thrilled to tour the steak house circuit. I can't see her letting a little fabric get in the way of her/their big break. No way. Besides, what's the big deal? She's pressed up against Lindsey, you can't see anything. Didn't she sleep with the guy like that anyway?

OK, it must just be me then who understands the idea of a line you don't want to cross, lives surrounded by people who feel ambivalent about situations, and who draw distinctions between what they do in bed and in front of a camera, do things because they want something at a particular point and then kinda wish they hadn't, etc etc.

She's just human, guys, it seems to me, and we fans are just about all guilty of being selective about which bits of her contradictions we believe. Not sure why people don't accept that that's what we're doing. We really can't resolve any of this with facts we don't and will never have. We're just stacking the deck to make our faves look their best.*

*Go, Stevie! Lindsey smells! and so on....

[LilyRose]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

She's just human, guys, it seems to me, and we fans are just about all guilty of being selective about which bits of her contradictions we believe. Not sure why people don't accept that that's what we're doing. We really can't resolve any of this with facts we don't and will never have. We're just stacking the deck to make our faves look their best.*

*stands and slow claps*

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

You say 'needle', I say 'massively insult'. I wouldn't have been even as polite as Stevie was, if someone I'm supposed to be creating with patronised me like that.

Yes, that's where we are never going to see eye to eye if you think someone asking whether you should change a pronoun in a song is a "massive insult." He loved the song. He asked her a question about the wording. She put him in his place and he dropped the subject.


She has complained about his lyrics and his musical stylings for decades. Not just GYOW but most of the Tusk tunes (and she compared Lindsey's taste for garbage rock to literal garbage). And she not only said she had a problem with them, but that Christine did too. Of course, she's entitled to her opinion, but the polite thing to do would have been to keep those criticisms within the band, not tell the press. She usually tells Lindsey what her complaints against him are and also tells the press. She has often discussed his perceived lack of lyric writing ability in her interviews. Even recently she said he must have taken lyric pills, since his current words sound so good to her (compared to his past history of dud lyrics). I don't call that having respect for his music.

However, I don't think people who work with each other so closely for years on end need to always respect each other anyway. Thirty or forty years in, you question, you butt heads and sometimes that helps you evolve or, alternately, it helps you stand stronger for your convictions and put out better work. I think that's what collaboration is supposed to be.

Plus, I know Lindsey is capable of defending himself, just as Stevie is, so I'm not into always seeing one or the other of them as a perennial victim.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

Definitely more to the story. This was the girl who was hell bent on a career in music, had been dishing it out at local diners making connections, couldn't stand it when Lindsey did solo gigs and would have been thrilled to tour the steak house circuit. I can't see her letting a little fabric get in the way of her/their big break. No way. Besides, what's the big deal? She's pressed up against Lindsey, you can't see anything. Didn't she sleep with the guy like that anyway?

Well, you can't see anything in the photo, but I guess the photographers and others in the room got an eyeful and that must have been embarassing.

But Stevie was no shrinking violet. She definitely wanted BN and she's told us that she made the decision that the 2 of them would be in FM. Lindsey recently said that she is the one who wanted them to be a duo. Plus, she was behind the move to Southern California to pursue their dreams anyway. I think Lindsey would have played in local San Francisco bands for years, without the push from her. She is the one who had the most ambition and I don't see him bullying her into posing naked because their career depended on it, based on everything else she's said about him and him basically resisting everything. He wouldn't play steakhouses, fought with FM and threatened to leave and didn't manifest a "go along to get along" attitude in his early career the way I think he is kind of doing now that he has a family. I just don't see him saying, "you need to do this for Buckingham Nicks."

She negotiated with the photographers. Did she make them think she was ok with the topless shoot as long as they did some with the blouse?

Originally Posted by jellyman10

We're just stacking the deck to make our faves look their best.

That's assuming you have favorites. It is possible to like all 3 pretty equally, which I wouldn't even have thought until Christine left the band and then I realized that while I thought I could stand to lose her more than the other two that I almost couldn't stand it. Which is not to say that I don't like the BN version of the band more than I liked the BTM version -- but the ache is still pretty strong and the hole very large.

I'm not stacking the deck to make Lindsey look better. I'm saying that some of the 52 cards are missing from the deck. They said they wanted Stevie's top off and she said she bargained with them, because she thought they would soon change their minds. Did she say, "I'm not comfortable with that" or did she say, "Let's do half with the blouse and half without." Did she voice her reluctance? Yes, I know you've suggested that anyone who wasn't a man would have known she didn't want to do it. I don't agree. Given the time frame, the hippie sixties, the "burn the bra" movement and the flamboyant behavior of people like Janis Joplin, I don't know if people would assume that she would be uncomfortable doing that unless she told them she was.

Yes, I would be uncomfortable. But I am insulted that women show their breasts a Mardi Gras. That's just me. I guess a lot of women think it's fun and funny to strip for beads and it's their body and their decision.

So, with the BN cover, Stevie said she got the photographers to agree to do 50/50.
Did Lindsey support the bargaining? If she hadn't made a deal with them to do it half and half and had just said "no breasts, period" would he have been ok with that? Or was he telling her to take her top off along with the photographers? If he was I consider it pimping his girlfriend. I just don't know that he was doing that, because Stevie has never discussed that part of the story.

By the time she says she was crying, her top was already off. I'm just wondering about the conversations that took place before it came off, what she said and what they said.

Michele

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

Cracked me up when she said on The Chris Isaak Show how her grandfather was jealous when she showed him the BN album. I thought it was funny he wasn't infuriated about her being topless, just envious of her getting an album cut.

Definitely more to the story. This was the girl who was hell bent on a career in music, had been dishing it out at local diners making connections, couldn't stand it when Lindsey did solo gigs and would have been thrilled to tour the steak house circuit. I can't see her letting a little fabric get in the way of her/their big break. No way. Besides, what's the big deal? She's pressed up against Lindsey, you can't see anything. Didn't she sleep with the guy like that anyway?

Exactly.. on the "wow" factor in the music bussiness... barely sexy..

[GoldDustOrphan]

Stevie says: "Lindsey and I] were really poor when we took that picture [Buckingham Nicks album cover], and I went out and spent my last $111 on a really beautiful, very sexy blouse. And they agreed to do half the session in the blouse, and I thought 'Oh, I'll win. They'll love this blouse, and they're gonna love the way I look.' Well halfway through the session, one of the photographers came over and said, 'Okay, it's time to take off the blouse,' and I died. it was awful, you know.... "

There's one "music store" on eBay that sells about 50 bootleg BN CDs every month, and the discs are screen-printed (not home printer inkjet/ laser labels), discs are shrink-wrapped and there are the live tracks. And that's just one person. Selling the original vinyl as a collector's item doesn't hurt the bottom line. but mass-producing decent sounding discs with extras (and misrepresenting them as legit) and selling them quite openly on the marketplace isn't helping efforts to make a real BN CD a priority. Will everyone that's purchased a bootleg for $22+ put out the cash for a "official" release when what they have is just fine?