if the tables were turned

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by darklinensuit

How is this the opposite conclusion when I said she would have joined FM?

- Jake

The OP's question was about whether SN would have joined FM without Lindsey. And when you said you thought she would not have "dumped Lindsey & gone for something bigger", I said that I thought she puts her career first, that I think she was losing faith in Lindsey's ability/vision for them as a duo, and for that reason I do think that she would have joined FM without him.

We agree she would have joined with LB (which we have to agree on, because she did!); we just don't agree over whether she'd have joined without him. Hope that makes sense?

Loz

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by GarboSpeaks!

I think Stevie would have fought to have him along as well, but I think she would NEVER EVER let him forget that. I also think that's why I adore LB so much, he's humble about fact.

I kind of agree with you. SN would cast something like that up far more, if the tables were turned, and it wouldn't be to her credit.

But I was just reading 'Never Break The Chain', Cath Carroll's book about the making of Rumours, and there's quite a lot from Keith Olsen in there about the whole story of how FM and BN got together, and if you piece this and all the other accounts together, I think what you get is that LB was definitely not as keen as Stevie was to give FM a try, and that that's the real irony about the whole thing. It was Stevie who had a gun to her head (three months left on that deal she made with Jess about giving up and going back to school), but it was Lindsey who got thrown the lifeline. That's why I think that, if the chips were down, she'd have gone without him. Just my opinion, of course.

Loz

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

The OP's question was about whether SN would have joined FM without Lindsey. And when you said you thought she would not have "dumped Lindsey & gone for something bigger", I said that I thought she puts her career first, that I think she was losing faith in Lindsey's ability/vision for them as a duo, and for that reason I do think that she would have joined FM without him.

We agree she would have joined with LB (which we have to agree on, because she did!); we just don't agree over whether she'd have joined without him. Hope that makes sense?

Loz

I said she would have joined FM without him & let him tour with other bands. I said her plan would have been to try to reunite with him once she had the clout to do so, perhaps as a substitute for what we know as her solo career. From this, where do you gather that I said she would not join Fleetwood Mac without him?

- Jake

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by darklinensuit

I said she would have joined FM without him & let him tour with other bands. I said her plan would have been to try to reunite with him once she had the clout to do so, perhaps as a substitute for what we know as her solo career. From this, where do you gather that I said she would not join Fleetwood Mac without him?

- Jake

I'm so sorry, this is stupid of me. The result of my taking off on a tangent from only part of your original post. I've gone back and read the whole of your first post on this thread and of course you're right, you did say she'd join without him. If we do differ, it's in that you believe she would have tried to balance FM and BN, whereas my hunch is that LB would never have gone for that, and that when push came to shove, she'd have chosen FM. But maybe you also think she'd have done that, if balancing wasn't an option? I don't know. I do enjoy the hypotheticals, though.

Loz

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

I'm so sorry, this is stupid of me. The result of my taking off on a tangent from only part of your original post. I've gone back and read the whole of your first post on this thread and of course you're right, you did say she'd join without him. If we do differ, it's in that you believe she would have tried to balance FM and BN, whereas my hunch is that LB would never have gone for that, and that when push came to shove, she'd have chosen FM. But maybe you also think she'd have done that, if balancing wasn't an option? I don't know. I do enjoy the hypotheticals, though.

Loz

No accusations of stupidity here, just wanting to be clear.
And for that matter, I'll be clearer to state that I wrote what I thought Stevie's intentions in 1975 would have been. Whether she would have followed through on returning to the partnership with Lindsey, especially if their romance continued to sour, is another story.

- Jake

[michelle2677]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

Furthermore, we all know the reasons that SN and LB give for their eventual split. But we also know that they were on the brink of splitting when FM happened along - so why was the relationship already on the rocks? To my reckoning, it was because Stevie was beginning to lose faith in LB's ability to get them where she wanted to go, and he knew it. In fact, LB said for the first time very recently that it was Stevie who wanted them to be a duo, and that he started writing songs because she wanted him to. Also, she's said that, in the days of Fritz, none of the guys were really interested in her because she was too ambitious.

Bottom line, for me, is that she really means it when she says that she has always been all about her career. And maybe when she says heartbreak makes for really great art, she is telling us that she is prepared to view - or even court - painful situations in a way that most of us would not?

Just some more thoughts!

Loz

that's partially my thought process too, and why i started the thread. they were already on the brink of disaster, and i think it's not out of bounds to think stevie would dump him to join FM-she dumped fritz when given the choice to go out with lindsey. i don't think it would necessarily be because she was losing faith in buckingham's abilities, though. also, it's so easy to get caught up in nicks' spiel about how they've made this journey together and it was their destiny and they've worked hard to get here and knew they were going to be famous together. well, it's easy to say that now but back when she was waiting tables, she might have still had that hope and vision but would it have been dropped like a hot potato had FM insisted on her solo. i still maintain she would have brought buckingham, but it really could have gone either way.

i also don't agree with another poster when they stevie would throw it in his face if she brought them to the band but lindsey is is more humble about it. in one of lindsey's meanest songs-NTF, he says "you're here 'cause i say so", which i think is a reference to being in fleetwood mac. "you wouldn't be here if it weren't for me", and he takes every opportunity to bring it up in interviews. JMO

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by michelle2677

i also don't agree with another poster when they stevie would throw it in his face if she brought them to the band but lindsey is is more humble about it. in one of lindsey's meanest songs-NTF, he says "you're here 'cause i say so", which i think is a reference to being in fleetwood mac. "you wouldn't be here if it weren't for me", and he takes every opportunity to bring it up in interviews. JMO

I don't think Lindsey is wont to be humble. However, for me, I don't think he goes out of his way to bring it up, although he has joked that he likes to remind her of it. In fact, in 35 years, I haven't heard him talk about the "package deal" even 1/5 as much as he has mentioned that Christine burned her bridges -- or that FM tried to make him use a pic when he first joined. He seems almost maniacal about those things. In interviews, it seems to me that the questioner usually asks him (and Stevie and Mick) about Lindsey saying he wouldn't join the band without her, rather than him just bringing that up spontaneously.

Stevie says that the Landslide writing in November was about her deciding whether or not to stay with Lindsey. That's how precarious they were. She'd left him before and she was thinking about doing it again. If she'd gotten a call from FM inviting her to join just one month after their big Landslide fight, I think she would have taken the offer tout de suite.

When they left Fritz, Stevie says it's because Lindsey was offered a record deal and they knew they couldn't get him without her. So, FM wasn't the first time he'd made the decision that there would be no him without her. I think that's why she says she wasn't even trying to shine on BN, she was just trying to make him look good, because I think she felt even that record was his deal more than hers (although she told Courtney Love it was because she loved Lindsey so much). When he went on tour, she said she couldn't understand why he got to go and she didn't. After all, weren't they the original Everly Bros. together? I think before New Year's 1974 she had already felt like a tagalong enough and that her musical role in the relationship was being marginalized. He made musical friends and she didn't. It was her whole reason for being in Southern California had been derailed. She was off track. She had had her "I don't want to be a cleaning woman" fill and their relationship was shaky enough that she would have welcomed the chance to leave him to pursue her musical dream without him.

When they finally broke up she says she had been wanting to break up for a year, but held it together long enough to make sure that FM would be stable in the wake of their separation. I think Mick's call kept them together longer than they would have been and if anyone had called and asked for only her, she wouldn't have thought twice. Which doesn't mean that had they broken up when she got an offer to join a band without him that they would have been 100% over immediately. They probably would have broken up and come back together a couple of times before the breach was final, but I think she would have joined a group without him pretty readily, hastening the inevitable break.

Michele

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

Lindsey provided the foundation of pure talent & Stevie had the stage persona & sex appeal to push them over the edge.

So Stevie didn't have pure talent? She was and always has been a better songwriter than Lindsey. I think she really sold herself short in the early BN days when she says that she was just trying to back Lindsey up and kind of stay in the background. She was a great songwriting and singing talent. Lindsey was a good guitarist (now great) and good (now great) arranger of songs. They both brought something unique to the table when they joined FM. I don't think one was a stronger talent than the other. I think Stevie is too often written off as a sex symbol and not taken seriously enough (when compared with Lindsey) as a major musical talent. Do you think this is really a fair summation of what they brought to each other's music and FM?

[MrStevie]

Originally Posted by cliffdweller

So Stevie didn't have pure talent? She was and always has been a better songwriter than Lindsey. I think she really sold herself short in the early BN days when she says that she was just trying to back Lindsey up and kind of stay in the background. She was a great songwriting and singing talent. Lindsey was a good guitarist (now great) and good (now great) arranger of songs. They both brought something unique to the table when they joined FM. I don't think one was a stronger talent than the other. I think Stevie is too often written off as a sex symbol and not taken seriously enough (when compared with Lindsey) as a major musical talent. Do you think this is really a fair summation of what they brought to each other's music and FM?

I agree with you, but the topic is Stevie's willingness to join FM without Lindsey. Most of us believe she would have done it. She's the one who wanted to join, not him. It's hard to argue his reason for joining was, she wanted it. I don't think he would have joined if he was not in a relationship with her and it was not her desire to join. If he was not with her I think Lindsey would have kept doing his own thing.

An obvious conclusion we could draw that's hard to admit...Stevie was in a relationship with Lindsey because of their musical partnership. Their musical partnership was key for her. I'm not saying she wasn't talented enough to make it on her own. She was. She just wanted and still wants the security and support Lindsey's help provides her. I also think she wants his respect and approval above all others.

Lindsey was in a relationship with Stevie because he loved her. She says so herself all the time. I think he helped with her music because he also appreciated her lyric writing abilities...not his strongest suit. Mostly he worked on her music because he loved her. A man wants to work hard for his woman so she doesn't have to. Lindsey is that kind of guy.

Stevie likes to harp on her working and him not ever having a real job before joining FM, but I don't believe Lindsey expected her to support them. He made money doing music related things but he doesn't talk about that much. She likes to talk about her other jobs because she sees that as her contribution to his career. Ironically, the times he didn't want to help her was probably because he loved her. It makes you wonder why he keeps helping her now? Stevie doesn't do anything for his songs. It must be he wants the hightenend publicity her public profile brings when he's helping her.