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#91
09-22-2008, 07:21 PM
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 care to back that up? I know some people in america want public health and some are against it but your statement is absolutely ridiculous. America is the only wealthy country without government health isn't it? Does that mean that every other country has a collapsed health system? 
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#92
09-22-2008, 07:29 PM
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#93
09-22-2008, 08:48 PM
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It's disengenous to hold McCain above the ugliness of politics, paint him as an outsider, or pretend he's not a part of the demonized "elite". He may have been a maverick at one point and wasn't afraid to work with whomever needed to get things done, but this election has proven that he can abandon principles as fast as needed to win over the Right.
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#94
09-22-2008, 09:36 PM
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#95
09-22-2008, 10:27 PM
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#96
09-22-2008, 10:36 PM
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 Everything I said above explains why it won't work here.Here's a great article by Walter E. Williams, the head of the Economics Department at George Mason University on the subject and he is exactly right: http://townhall.com/columnists/Walte...ent_vs_private Yet another great article on the subject: http://townhall.com/columnists/Walte...lized_medicine Yet another great one http://www.gmu.edu/departments/econo...ealthcare.html A great movie about Canadian brain surgery http://www.onthefencefilms.com/video/brainsurgery.html A great article on how single payer health care can lead to loss of liberty: http://www.voiceofthetimes.net/index..._WFAM2sjpplAyQ A great article with nice figures explaining why this is a bad idea: http://www.zianet.com/nmiri/e_free_h...are_072804.htm Last edited by ajmccarrell; 09-22-2008 at 10:50 PM..
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#97
09-22-2008, 10:50 PM
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Actually, the bills proposed such things as amnesty and increasing the number of people allowed to immigrate legally. Now he is saying that his primary focus is to seal the borders. It's quite a turn-around, really. Don't believe everything you hear, and don't assume that just because he's a Republican, he's faultless. McCain was never the darling of the Right. He used to be, in fact, the darling of the press. Now he participates in the disingenuous media bashing, ditches his unpopular moderate views, and chooses a VP even he must know is unqualified--all in an attempt to pander to the Right. He thinks he can't win without the Evangelicals and the Neo-Cons. It's sad to watch him lose integrity in order to satisfy his personal ambition.
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#98
09-22-2008, 10:57 PM
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He was never a moderate, the media just liked to play it up when he disagreed with his party. If you look at his voting record, he has a conservative record of 82%, whereas uberconservative Fred Thompson has an 86%. He always was a conservative. He was just more fun than the rest. Palin actually has executive experience, as does McCain when he commanded the country's largest Navy battalion. Obama and Biden have zip. Palin has a wee bit more experience than Obama does. Obama has been running for president the entire time he's been in the Senate and has logged 144 days. Palin actually went to work for Alaska and has something of a record to run on, such as reforming her party and cleaning house. She also oversaw a state budget of 10 Billion and managed 12,000 employees. Obama has run his Senate office staff. His own boss when he was a community organizer said that Obama accomplished little to nothing. Obama has very minor accomplishments and even tried to lie last night on 60 minutes when he said he and McCain had the same amount of executive experience, despite McCain running a Navy Battalion. He actually said that running a campaign qualified him to be president.  David Axelrod runs his campaign. I don't know why the Obama/Biden ticket isn't reversed. I don't believe McCain is faultless, he admits his own imperfections, I just think he'll screw things up a lot less than Obama would. Obama, on the other hand, plays up on the idea he's some sort of change messiah, when he's really just a skilled politician old-school Chicago style and utterly helpless without a teleprompter. McCain is smart enough to know when he doesn't have the answers and needs to ask for help. Obama is arrogant enough to think that he knows it all. Last edited by ajmccarrell; 09-22-2008 at 11:03 PM..
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#99
09-23-2008, 06:30 AM
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Here is an excerpt of Kerry's Speech Quote:
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#100
09-23-2008, 09:26 AM
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I'm not sure where you got the 82% Conservative record, but look at the trend in his voting. From FactCheck.org: "According to Congressional Quarterly's Voting Studies, in 2007 McCain voted in line with the president's position 95 percent of the time – the highest percentage rate for McCain since Bush took office – and voted in line with his party 90 percent of the time. However, McCain's support of President Bush's position has been as low as 77 percent (in 2005), and his support for his party's position has been as low as 67 percent (2001)." I believe he has voted with Bush's explicitly supported bills 100% of the time in 2008. I guess he can still call himself a maverick if he wants to, but only in the sense that he's been voting with W when Americans clearly don't approve of what he's doing.
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#101
09-23-2008, 09:40 AM
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That anyone suggests McCain will do anything other than what the RNC wants him to do is either ignorant of history or ignorant of how the R party works.
Also, Palin - she's just so trustworthy isn't she  Actually, I see her as an opportunistic c*nt who also uses Christianity in a way that sickens me. Anyone who thinks this "woman" will not also stab them in the back or that she is not pushing a clearly pentacostal agenda for her own benefit and with lies is not wanting to face the facts as illustrated in this expose - read it and judge for yourself:http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20...lin/print.html Mean girl Sarah Palin has a way of using "old boys" -- then dumping them when they become inconvenient. By David Talbot Sep. 23, 2008 Before Sarah Palin decided to run for the Wasilla mayor's office in 1996 against incumbent John Stein, the Palins and Steins were friends. John Stein had helped launch Palin's political career, mentoring the hockey mom during her 1994 run for City Council, along with veteran council member Nick Carney. Stein's wife, Karen Marie, went to aerobics classes with Palin. But when she announced her candidacy for Stein's seat, vowing to overturn the city's "old boy" establishment, a different Sarah Palin emerged. "Things got very ugly," recalled Naomi Tigner, a friend of the Steins. "Sarah became very mean-spirited." The Wasilla mayor's seat is nonpartisan, and Mayor Stein, a former city planner who had held the post for nine years, ran a businesslike campaign that stressed his experience and competency. But Palin ignited the traditionally low-key race with scorching social issues, injecting "God, guns and abortion into the race -- things that had nothing to do with being mayor of a small town," according to Tigner. Palin's mayoral campaign rode the wave of conservative, evangelical fervor that was sweeping Alaska in the '90s. Suddenly candidates' social values, not their ability to manage the roads and sewer systems, were dominating the debate. "Sarah and I were both Republicans, but this was an entirely new slant to local politics -- much more aggressive than anything I'd ever seen," said Stein, looking back at the election that put Palin on the political map. There was a knife-sharp, personal edge to Palin's campaign that many locals found disturbing, particularly because of the warm relationship between Palin and Stein before the race. "I called Sarah's campaign for mayor the end of the age of innocence in Wasilla," said Carney. Even though Palin knew that Stein is a Protestant Christian, from a Pennsylvania Dutch background, her campaign began circulating the word that she would be "Wasilla's first Christian mayor." Some of Stein's supporters interpreted this as an attempt to portray Stein as Jewish in the heavily evangelical community. Stein himself, an eminently reasonable and reflective man, thinks "they were redefining Christianity to mean born-agains." The Palin campaign also started another vicious whisper campaign, spreading the word that Stein and his wife -- who had chosen to keep her own last name when they were married -- were not legally wed. Again, Palin knew the truth, Stein said, but chose to muddy the waters. "We actually had to produce our marriage certificate," recalled Stein, whose wife died of breast cancer in 2005 without ever reconciling with Palin. "I had a hand in creating Sarah, but in the end she blew me out of the water," Stein said, sounding more wearily ironic than bitter. "Sarah's on a mission, she's an opportunist." According to some political observers in Alaska, this pattern -- exploiting "old-boy" mentors and then turning against them for her own advantage -- defines Sarah Palin's rise to power. Again and again, Palin has charmed powerful political patrons, and then rejected them when it suited her purposes. She has crafted a public image as a clean politics reformer, but in truth, she has only blown the whistle on political corruption when it was expedient for her to do so. Above all, Palin is a dynamo of ambition, shrewdly maneuvering her way through the notoriously compromised world of Alaska politics, making and breaking alliances along the way. "When Palin takes credit for knocking off the old-boy network in Alaska, it drives me crazy," said Andrew Halcro, an Anchorage businessman and radio talk show host who ran against her in the 2006 GOP primary race for governor. "Sarah certainly availed herself of that network whenever it was expedient." With its frontier political infrastructure and its geyser of oil money, Alaska has become as notorious as a third-world petro-kingdom. In recent years, scandal has seeped throughout the state's political circles -- and at the center of this widening spill is Alaska's powerful patronage king, Republican Sen. Ted Stevens, and wealthy oil contractor Bill Allen. Despite Palin's reform reputation, she has maintained a delicate relationship with Stevens over the years -- courting his endorsement for governor, then distancing herself after his 2007 federal indictment on corruption charges, and then cozying up again when it appeared he might survive politically. As for Allen -- the former oil roughneck whose North Slope wealth has greased many a palm in Alaska -- Palin found nothing wrong with his money when she ran for lieutenant governor in 2002. But once a powerful patron becomes a major liability, Palin is quick to jettison him. Alaska state Rep. Victor Kohring, another key Palin supporter during her political rise in Mat-Su Valley, found this out after he became a victim of the FBI's oil corruption sting operation. Kohring, who used to accompany Palin on her campaign jaunts, angrily points out that he was abandoned by his fellow Christian conservative before he even went to trial. The former Alaska legislator, who now resides in the Taft minimum security prison outside Bakersfield, Calif., communicated his views of Palin through his friend, Fred James. Kohring, said James, feels "betrayed" by Palin. "After Vic's indictment, she didn't give him the time of day," said James. "She never went to him personally and asked if the charges were true. This is a man who helped her get started in government. She turned her back on him well before he even went on trial. Vic resents the hell out of that. He thinks she's an opportunist, pure and simple. She saw how the press were moving on Vic, and even before he had his day in court, she called on him to resign his office. He regarded that as a great insult, a personal betrayal." Palin's reputation as a reformer stems primarily from her headline-grabbing ouster of state GOP chairman Randy Ruedrich from the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission for flagrant conflict-of-interest abuses. At the time, Palin was heralded in the press as a whistle-blower, but it was later revealed that she was guilty of the same charge that she had brought against Ruedrich -- using state office equipment for partisan political business. (While still mayor of Wasilla, she sent out campaign fundraising appeals from her office during her race for lieutenant governor.) Others suspect that Palin had self-serving reasons for taking on Ruedrich and resigning her seat on the commission. The state energy panel had ignited a public firestorm in Palin's home base, Mat-Su Valley, by secretly leasing sub-surface drilling rights on thousands of residential lots to a Colorado-based gas producer. Outraged farmers and homeowners, who woke up one morning to find drilling equipment being hauled onto their land, were in open revolt against the commission. While Palin initially supported the leasing plan, she was shrewd enough to realize it was political suicide to alienate conservative property owners in her own district. According to some accounts, she was also growing tired of commuting to state offices in Anchorage and poring over dry, tedious technical manuals for her job. All in all, it seemed like the right move to jump ship -- and going out a hero was an added plus. "Sarah quit the commission to make political hay," Halcro asserted. In the end, Ruedrich admitted wrongdoing and settled the ethics case by paying $12,000 in civil fines. But Palin did not drive the well-connected Republican operative into exile. In fact, he remains the party's state chairman and he could be seen on the floor of the Republican convention in St. Paul, Minn., hugging the newly crowned vice-presidential candidate and cheering her feisty speech against greedy old boys like, well, him. "The idea that Sarah shook up the state's old-boy network is one big fantasy, it's complete bull****," Halcro said. "She got all this public acclaim for throwing people who backed her under the bus -- but she only did it after they became expendable, when she no longer needed them. "The good old boys in Alaska are still the good old boys -- they're alive and kicking. Randy is still running the Republican Party -- he wasn't happy about being turned into a national poster boy for corruption, but he went along with the program. Ted Stevens is still running for reelection. And [scandal-tainted Alaska Rep.] Don Young is, too. So where's the new era of change that Palin supposedly brought to Alaska?"
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 save the cheerleader - save the world Last edited by strandinthewind; 09-23-2008 at 09:43 AM..
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#102
09-23-2008, 09:45 AM
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Here's more of the same from Time:
Tuesday, Sep. 02, 2008 Mayor Palin: A Rough Record By Nathan Thornburgh / Wasilla, Alaska John McCain was clear about why he picked half-term Alaska governor Sarah Palin to be his running mate. "I found someone with an outstanding reputation for standing up to special interests and entrenched bureaucracies," he said in introducing her in Dayton, Ohio, on Friday. Palin was someone, he noted, "who reached across the aisle and asked Republicans, Democrats and independents to serve in government." It is a powerful reinforcement of McCain's own political brand: tough, reform-minded, willing to break with his own party for the right cause. And it's true that her high-profile crusade against corruption and complacency in her own state party over the past few years has made Palin the Frank Serpico of Alaska politics: she publicly ratted out her state party chairman; whupped the good old boys' network, as she likes to put it, in a gubernatorial primary; and fought a general election in which the scandal-stained state GOP didn't lift a finger on her behalf. She won only because she had the enthusiastic backing of independents and grass-roots activists. But in the first major race of her career — the 1996 campaign for mayor of her hometown, Wasilla — Palin was a far more conventional politician. In fact, according to some who were involved in that fight, Palin was a highly polarizing political figure who brought partisan politics and hot-button social issues like abortion and gun control into a mayoral race that had traditionally been contested like a friendly intramural contest among neighbors. In the early '90s, Wasilla was little more than half as big as it is today, and much more loosely confederated. The main issue then, says longtime resident Chas St. George, was public safety. "We needed a police department," he says. "So we set up a group to make it happen." That group — Watch on Wasilla — included a handful of the town's most influential figures: St. George; the town's mayor, John Stein; and Palin, who wasn't in elected office yet. Her father-in-law Jim Palin and his wife Faye were also in the group. Eventually, they started a police department, led by chief Irl Stambaugh. Kaylene Johnson, author of Sarah, a Palin biography published earlier this year, says one place where the power group met was a step-aerobics class that Stambaugh and Stein took along with Palin. That class signed the original petition for Palin's first political race, for city council in 1992, which she won. Four years later, she took on her former workout buddy in a race that quickly became contentious. In Stein's view, Palin's main transgression was injecting big-time politics into a small-town local race. "It was always a nonpartisan job," he says. "But with her, the state GOP came in and started affecting the race." While Palin often describes that race as having been a fight against the old boys' club, Stein says she made sure the campaign hinged on issues like gun owners' rights and her opposition to abortion (Stein is pro-choice). "It got to the extent that — I don't remember who it was now — but some national antiabortion outfit sent little pink cards to voters in Wasilla endorsing her," he says. Vicki Naegele was the managing editor of the Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman at the time. "[Stein] figured he was just going to run your average, friendly small-town race," she recalls, "but it turned into something much different than that." Naegele held the same conservative Christian beliefs as Palin but didn't think they had any place in local politics. "I just thought, That's ridiculous, she should concentrate on roads, not abortion," says Naegele. St. George worked on Stein's campaign at the time, and while he says he has no reason to dispute Stein's recollection of events, he doesn't remember Palin's conduct being beyond the pale. "Our tax coffers were starting to grow," he says. "John was for expanding services, and Sarah wasn't. That's what the race was about." One thing all sides agree on is that the valley was in flux. The old libertarian pioneer ethos was giving way to a rising Christian conservatism. By shrewdly invoking issues that mattered to the ascendant majority, Palin won the mayor's race. But while she may have been a new face, says Naegele, she was no maverick — not yet. "The state party gave her the mechanism to get into that office," says Naegele. "As soon as she was confident enough to brush them off, she did. But she wasn't an outsider to start with. She very much had to kowtow to them." Governing was no less contentious than campaigning, at least to begin with. Palin ended up dismissing almost all the city department heads who had been loyal to Stein, including a few who had been instrumental in getting her into politics to begin with. Some saw it as a betrayal. Stambaugh, the police chief and a member of Palin's step-aerobics class, filed a lawsuit for wrongful termination, alleging that Palin terminated him in part at the behest of the National Rifle Association, because he had opposed a concealed-gun law that the NRA supported. He eventually lost the suit. The animosity spawned some talk of a recall attempt, but eventually Palin's opponents in the city council opted for a more conciliatory route. At some point in those fractious first days, Palin told the department heads they needed her permission to talk to reporters. "She put a gag order on those people, something that you'd expect to find in the big city, not here," says Naegele. "She flew in there like a big-city gal, which she's not. It was a strange time, and [the [ITALIC "Frontiersman"]] came out very harshly against her." Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving "full support" to the mayor. St. George, however, points out that Palin couldn't have seen everything through an Evangelical lens. She did, he says, notably resist calls to restrict operating hours for the bars in town. And even if faith did play an unusually large role in her decision-making as mayor, it may have only reflected the continued rise of Evangelicalism in the valley, a growth that continues to this day. "We like to call this the Bible Belt of Alaska," says Cheryl Metiva, head of the local chamber of commerce. Churches proliferate in Wasilla today, and among the largest and most influential is the Wasilla Bible Church, where the Palins worship. At the 11:15 a.m. Sunday service, hundreds sit in folding chairs, listening to a 20-minute sermon about the Book of Malachi and singing along to alt-rock praise songs. The only sign of culture warring in the whole production is an insert in the day's program advertising an upcoming Focus on the Family conference on homosexuality in Anchorage called Love Won Out. The group promises to teach attendees how to "respond to misinformation in our culture" and help them "overcome" homosexuality. When Palin, who went on to win re-election by a landslide, was forced out of the Mayor's office by term limits in 2002, her husband Todd's stepmother Faye Palin ran for mayor. She did not, however, get Sarah Palin's endorsement. A couple of people told me that they thought abortion was the reason for Palin not supporting her family member — Faye, they say, is pro-choice, not to mention a Democrat. A former city council member recalls that it was a heated race, mainly because of right-to-life issues: "People were writing BABYKILLER on Faye's campaign signs just a few days before the election." Faye Palin lost the race to the candidate that Sarah backed, Dianne Keller, who is still mayor of Wasilla. (Over the weekend, Faye Palin told the New York Daily News that she liked listening to Barack Obama speak and that she wasn't sure who she would vote for in November.) By the time Sarah Palin was entering state politics, the hottest issue in Alaska wasn't gay marriage or even abortion. It was corruption and cronyism. Andrew Halcro, a noted Palin critic who ran against her as an independent in the governor's race, says she knew instinctively that the issues were changing. Plus, he says, her opponents, such as incumbent governor Frank Murkowski, whom she defeated in the primary, were just as hard-right on abortion and guns as she was. She needed a new political identity to make it to the next level, so ethics reform became her calling card. "She's a very savvy politician," says Halcro. "So wedge issues were not part of the portfolio." "If anything," he says, "she got tired of answering questions about them." Halcro recalls one debate in October 2006 in which, after repeated questions about her opposition to abortion even in cases of rape or incest, she looked at the moderator with exasperation and asked if they were going to talk about anything besides abortion. It was detracting from her new message: cleaning up the capitol. Nor has Palin made social issues the cornerstone of her governorship. When a parental consent law was struck down by Alaska's highest court in 2007, Palin called the decision "outrageous" but refused calls from conservatives to remedy the defeat by introducing antiabortion legislation in a session that was supposed to be about drilling rights. Wearing her faith quietly fits more with Palin's personality, says St. George. "In all the years I've known Sarah and her parents, we never talked about right-to-life or any of that," he says. "She doesn't let those issues get in the way of getting things done for the community." In the end, her political journey from banner-waving GOP social conservative to maverick reformer may simply be about good timing. It's what former journalist Bill McAllister, who now works for Palin's press staff, used to call "Sarah-dipity" — that uncanny gift of knowing exactly what voters are looking for at a particular moment. And, of course, the political will to give them what they want. http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...837918,00.html
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save the cheerleader - save the world
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#103
09-23-2008, 09:46 AM
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The rich are taken care of because they can afford to pay. The welfare recipients aren't as well taken care of as the rich are, but they do get care via the government medical programs. It might not always be the BEST care, but they do get it. The problem with our current system is that the people that suffer most are the working poor, and the middle class. These are people that make slightly too much to get gov't help, but not enough to pay for insurance on their own. I would venture a guess that a lot of those people in the ER waiting room with you were not actually welfare recipients, but the working poor - those with no insurance at all. The costs of a doctor visit are prohibitive if you do not have insurance. People with no insurance can't afford preventative care, so when they do get sick, they end up having to wait and see if it gets better, and if it doesn't, then they have to go to the ER because it's the only choice they've got - the ER can't turn you away. And by the time they get there, perhaps whatever problem they had to begin with has gotten so much worse that the stakes are upped and they require more intervention than they might've if they could have just seen a regular doctor 2 weeks before to get an antibiotic. In our failure to ensure that these people have the means to keep themselves well, we only manage to collectively shoot ourselves in the foot. The working poor are the backbone of the country - these are the people that bag your groceries, make your restaurant food, clean your office building, run the checkout lane at Target, assemble things in factories, and serve lunch in your child's cafeteria. We rely on these people for so many things, but we do not make sure they are healthy enough to do them. Even worse, we punish them when they do get sick - a week or even a day off of work at a job like those mentioned above can sink you financially when you live paycheck to paycheck, and that's without taking into account the fact that you might lose that job entirely for being gone anyway. If one of the causes of the staggeringly high healthcare costs is the number of people on gov't assistance, then I think it would make sense to make sure that we prevent people from ending up in a situation where they NEED that welfare - like, say, the checkout girl with bronchitis that couldn't afford a doctor visit to get help before it got really bad, ended up missing a week of work because she couldn't breathe, subsequently lost her job, and ended up on the dole...or worse. And yes, there is a "worse" - the pack of jackals that I call my children and I live with the catastrophic consequences of American healthcare in its current incarnation every day, and I know we are not alone - the stories might differ, but the message is the same: if you can't afford to pay for a doctor, then you don't count. You don't matter. You're not worth it. We've put healthcare in the same category of luxury items like yachts and private jets and Escalades, and it sets up its own little version of the Mason-Dixon line - if you've got the money, then you deserve medical care, but if you don't have the money, then you shouldn't have been so stupid as to go and get yourself some cancer in the first place, dumbass. It essentially turns the US government into the mother of all suburban housewives, scolding, "THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!" should any of its offspring be so careless as to break a limb without being able to afford to get the bone reset. We are setting a finite dollar amount on the value of a life, and letting millions of Americans know that they just don't stack up. People in countries with socialized medicine may have to wait for their care when it comes to certain procedures, but at least they know they'll get it at some point, that they're considered worth it. And even if you're absolutely convinced (erroneously or otherwise) that the socialized medicine systems of other countries are no good, there's nothing saying we can't devise a program that does "work" whether it's similar to what they do or completely different. We (theoretically) have the monetary resources, so why not attempt to correct the problem by finding a solution that benefits EVERYONE? The system we have now has done nothing more than create sick people that can't afford to get sick, but can't afford to get well, either - and really, when all is said and done, what does it say about us as both a nation and as human beings that something so basic as health can be described as a "luxury"?
__________________
Malanderer, Badlander and Thief, Est. 1982  All the same, baby. All the same. "You never know what I'll do. I've resequenced my show. I'm a master at sequencing. I'm the one who sequenced for Fleetwood Mac. I sequenced 'Rumours.' Everyone loves my sequences. They're fun.'' Last edited by Zombie; 09-23-2008 at 09:47 AM.. Reason: Grammar, oy.
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#104
09-23-2008, 09:59 AM
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Also, here is Obama's Health Care plan http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/. It is not anything close to socialized medicine.
__________________
save the cheerleader - save the world
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#105
09-23-2008, 11:11 AM
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 Obama's plan is interesting - I am curious to see how it would actually play out.
__________________
Malanderer, Badlander and Thief, Est. 1982 All the same, baby. All the same. "You never know what I'll do. I've resequenced my show. I'm a master at sequencing. I'm the one who sequenced for Fleetwood Mac. I sequenced 'Rumours.' Everyone loves my sequences. They're fun.''
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