What do you think?....

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

But on the flip side, in regards to quantum physics, there's no way of really saying how something is affected by something else. When we observe something, we aren't seeing it in its natural state; it appears differently for us. It's altered for our sight. So how would it be possible to gauge the effects one thing has on another if we are never seeing something as it truly is? That is the question.

Well, isn't quantum physics exactly the point of guaging the reactions of sub atomic things, upon other sub atomic things? sure, we can't see it in our real life, but scientist have seen it, and they've seen "it's" effect on other particles around it...that's how much of quantum physics operates, seeing the effects of things on other things. which they can see. and if equipment can see it, or it's effects, then, aren't we really seeing it? (ie, if it affects something we can measure, then isn't it really there?) I see your thing with seeing something, really, and does anyone really exist, or is it all perception, and all that, but since we can only talk about what we know...

Originally Posted by Dissention

I am speaking more largely because I'm not concerned, when it comes to this discussion, how pollution affects people twenty years from now. And yes, you made a bit of sense. :P

Oh, you are not concerned with how your actions, and the actions of your leaders, and everyone else, affect others? I'm sorry, I thought you were. oh, wait, I see. you said "when it comes to this discussion". But still, do you deny that we, and everyone that has come before us, do affect others? I think you denied it in your previous posts here. right? or, maybe you were speaking more generally, then, as well?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

Well, isn't quantum physics exactly the point of guaging the reactions of sub atomic things, upon other sub atomic things? sure, we can't see it in our real life, but scientist have seen it, and they've seen "it's" effect on other particles around it...that's how much of quantum physics operates, seeing the effects of things on other things. which they can see. and if equipment can see it, or it's effects, then, aren't we really seeing it? (ie, if it affects something we can measure, then isn't it really there?) I see your thing with seeing something, really, and does anyone really exist, or is it all perception, and all that, but since we can only talk about what we know...

But quantum physicists believe that nothing can be observed as it actually is, dear. They believe that it "changes" when we view it. So, they use statistical probabilities to reach their conclusions most of the time.

Originally Posted by amber

Oh, you are not concerned with how your actions, and the actions of your leaders, and everyone else, affect others? I'm sorry, I thought you were. oh, wait, I see. you said "when it comes to this discussion". But still, do you deny that we, and everyone that has come before us, do affect others? I think you denied it in your previous posts here. right? or, maybe you were speaking more generally, then, as well?

I've nothing to add to that because you don't seem to understand my position. If I want to talk about pollution, I'll start an environmental thread instead of discussing it in a thread that deals with rather existential issues, especially when pollution has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

But quantum physicists believe that nothing can be observed as it actually is, dear. They believe that it "changes" when we view it. So, they use statistical probabilities to reach their conclusions most of the time.



I've nothing to add to that because you don't seem to understand my position. If I want to talk about pollution, I'll start an environmental thread instead of discussing it in a thread that deals with rather existential issues, especially when pollution has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

Sorry, i thought you made the point that things don't affect other things. If you are not talking about actual things, I'd appreciate knowing what things you are talking about. Which things don't affect others? Actually, I think you did say that, but I appreciate you implying I don't know what you are talking about, even though I don't believe you said what you are talking about. Enlighten me, please. I'd love to understand your position. And I believe quantum physicist do rely on their observation of how things affect other things.

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

In the grand scheme of things, nothing matters. We're not going to leave big marks behind because of anything we've done in our lifetime, we're all going to die, and life is going to go on as if we never existed. Everything is essentially random and nothing is as connected as we'd like to believe.

Ah, yes, here it is. "nothing is connected. life will go on as if we never were. Everything is random"

[Hawkeye]

I have to go with Stevie and say that "I believe that Destiny Rules and that the spirits are ruthless with the paths they choose." Its hard to find any better words writtten by Ms. Nicks.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by amber

Hmmm. I've thought about this stuff every since i was very young. I had a hunger to learn about it. But then, I was not raised as you were. But i've always asked weird questions about everything. The cosmic everything, that is.

Yeah - independent thinking and opinions were something pretty new to me when I got to college. I don't mean to demonize my parents in any way, but it would be dishonest to say that they encouraged "free thinking". It was more like, "this is how things have always been, and that is why you do it/think it/feel it". God, that sucked!

[amber]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

Yeah - independent thinking and opinions were something pretty new to me when I got to college. I don't mean to demonize my parents in any way, but it would be dishonest to say that they encouraged "free thinking". It was more like, "this is how things have always been, and that is why you do it/think it/feel it". God, that sucked!

Ah, but you came out ok, which is great.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

Sorry, i thought you made the point that things don't affect other things. If you are not talking about actual things, I'd appreciate knowing what things you are talking about. Which things don't affect others? Actually, I think you did say that, but I appreciate you implying I don't know what you are talking about, even though I don't believe you said what you are talking about. Enlighten me, please. I'd love to understand your position.

Go look up existential nihilism. That's what I've been talking about the whole time and pretty much the position I hold.

Originally Posted by amber

And I believe quantum physicist do rely on their observation of how things affect other things.

If that were true, their results would be inherently flawed and contradict their statements that things change when we observe them.

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

Go look up existential nihilism. That's what I've been talking about the whole time and pretty much the position I hold.



If that were true, their results would be inherently flawed and contradict their statements that things change when we observe them.

okay, I will, but you didn't really say that, you implied something else. So I couldn't really know, if you didn't explain, could I?
you could tell me, and then it would be an actual discussion, but perhaps you can't word it well, yet.
And about quantum physics? I dunno.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

Ah, yes, here it is. "nothing is connected. life will go on as if we never were. Everything is random"

Also known as existential nihilism.

We'll have to continue tomorrow, it's 2am here, dear, and I need sleep.

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

Also known as existential nihilism.

We'll have to continue tomorrow, it's 2am here, dear, and I need sleep.

yeah, maybe tomorrow you could make it clear exactly what you are talking about? And you don't have to wink at me about existential Nihilism, as if i'd never heard about it.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

okay, I will, but you didn't really say that, you implied something else. So I couldn't really know, if you didn't explain, could I?

I didn't imply anything else, I outlined the tenants of existential nihilism in my first post in this thread.

Originally Posted by amber

you could tell me, and then it would be an actual discussion, but perhaps you can't word it well, yet.

I gathered that you understood nihilism and what I was talking about until a little while ago.

Originally Posted by amber

And about quantum physics? I dunno.

That's why you and I, my dear, are not quantum physicists.

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

I didn't imply anything else, I outlined the tenants of existential nihilism in my first post in this thread.



I gathered that you understood nihilism and what I was talking about until a little while ago.



That's why you and I, my dear, are not quantum physicists.

kay. I just reviewed the posts, but I'll go back again. Perhaps you were talking about nihilism when it wasn't my point at all? possibly. so, then, you believe in nihilism as, um, a sort of religion? and you don't believe things are connected? mkay. I suppose a review is in order, lest i get that "you are not smart, and could never understand what I mean" winkie thing, that happens when two people are not talking about the same thing at all, and one thinks the other is dumb. I shall go back, to glean your true point!

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

kay. I just reviewed the posts, but I'll go back again. Perhaps you were talking about nihilism when it wasn't my point at all? possibly. so, then, you believe in nihilism as, um, a sort of religion? and you don't believe things are connected? mkay. I suppose a review is in order, lest i get that "you are not smart, and could never understand what I mean" winkie thing, that happens when two people are not talking about the same thing at all, and one thinks the other is dumb. I shall go back, to glean your true point!

My first response in this thread had nothing to do with you or any point you were making. It had to do with my personal beliefs. I don't necessarily put stock into everything that a true existential nihilist believes, but I believe quite a lot of it.

Existential Nihilism
http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/n/ni...ial%20Nihilism

While nihilism is often discussed in terms of extreme skepticism and relativism, for most of the 20th century it has been associated with the belief that life is meaningless. Existential nihilism begins with the notion that the world is without meaning or purpose. Given this circumstance, existence itself--all action, suffering, and feeling--is ultimately senseless and empty.

In the twentieth century, it's the atheistic existentialist movement, popularized in France in the 1940s and 50s, that is responsible for the currency of existential nihilism in the popular consciousness. Jean-Paul Sartre's (1905-1980) defining preposition for the movement, "existence precedes essence," rules out any ground or foundation for establishing an essential self or a human nature. When we abandon illusions, life is revealed as nothing; and for the existentialists, nothingness is the source of not only absolute freedom but also existential horror and emotional anguish. Nothingness reveals each individual as an isolated being "thrown" into an alien and unresponsive universe, barred forever from knowing why yet required to invent meaning.

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

My first response in this thread had nothing to do with you or any point you were making. It had to do with my personal beliefs. I don't necessarily put stock into everything that a true existential nihilist believes, but I believe quite a lot of it.

Existential Nihilism
http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/n/ni...ial%20Nihilism

While nihilism is often discussed in terms of extreme skepticism and relativism, for most of the 20th century it has been associated with the belief that life is meaningless. Existential nihilism begins with the notion that the world is without meaning or purpose. Given this circumstance, existence itself--all action, suffering, and feeling--is ultimately senseless and empty.

In the twentieth century, it's the atheistic existentialist movement, popularized in France in the 1940s and 50s, that is responsible for the currency of existential nihilism in the popular consciousness. Jean-Paul Sartre's (1905-1980) defining preposition for the movement, "existence precedes essence," rules out any ground or foundation for establishing an essential self or a human nature. When we abandon illusions, life is revealed as nothing; and for the existentialists, nothingness is the source of not only absolute freedom but also existential horror and emotional anguish. Nothingness reveals each individual as an isolated being "thrown" into an alien and unresponsive universe, barred forever from knowing why yet required to invent meaning.

I read that thing. Did it address the question of the future being preordained? Somewhat. But even though it said that existence is nothing, it still seemed to also address that even nihilism, and the belief in it, will affect things, people, the world. That it has implications on cilivilisation. But overall, I'm not sure I'd look to that particular theory of existence to answer whether I believe the future is preordained, or not. It seems, to me, to speak to something else. But you did just say it had more to do with your personal beliefs than the question at hand.
"It has been over a century now since Nietzsche explored nihilism and its implications for civilization. As he predicted, nihilism's impact on the culture and values of the 20th century has been pervasive, its apocalyptic tenor spawning a mood of gloom and a good deal of anxiety, anger, and terror. Interestingly, Nietzsche himself, a radical skeptic preoccupied with language, knowledge, and truth, anticipated many of the themes of postmodernity. It's helpful to note, then, that he believed we could--at a terrible price--eventually work through nihilism. If we survived the process of destroying all interpretations of the world, we could then perhaps discover the correct course for humankind:"