Abortion

[gypsyhelena]

Originally Posted by Feather Blade

Sigh, I know I am going to regret getting involved in this argument, but how about a different viewpoint for once if we are so supportive of them all. The original poster merely asked what we thought was going on in Stevie's life at the time which would cause her to take the course of action she did. Cue the immediate vehement "her body her choice!" answer. Yes, it was her body, but I am tired of everyone pretending that making that choice isn't denying a lifetime's worth of choices to another human being who could have lived and loved and gifted the world with their own special qualities. If you have been in that situation, I know I haven't walked in your shoes, but can I humbly ask that we consider taking 9 tiny months of our general allotment of 912 of them over the average lifespan, to let another human being come into this world to be gifted to adoptive parents who are aching to give that little one a family and a home. There ARE other alternatives. (and to the person who said that everyone who wasn't supportive of killing children was about as deep as a raindrop, I hope I've shown more depth than that. If you still think not, then I'm sorry, but I'll "choose" to stick to my principles.)

Generally, pro-choice people respond 'vehemently' towards the anti-choice agenda because they find the idea of ignoring women's rights to bodily autonomy, and forcing them to use their bodies to carry a pregnancy and give birth against their will, to be cruel/preposterous/inhumane, because it's valuing the life of a fetus- a collection of cells with no brain activity- above the life of a person with likes and dislikes, hopes and dreams, friends and enemies- the life of a person WITH a life.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by gypsyhelena

Generally, pro-choice people respond 'vehemently' towards the anti-choice agenda because they find the idea of ignoring women's rights to bodily autonomy, and forcing them to use their bodies to carry a pregnancy and give birth against their will, to be cruel/preposterous/inhumane, because it's valuing the life of a fetus- a collection of cells with no brain activity- above the life of a person with likes and dislikes, hopes and dreams, friends and enemies- the life of a person WITH a life.

Dido!!!!!!!!!

[secret love]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Dido!!!!!!!!!

You Yanks puzzle me. Abortion is a controversial issue in Australia, though it is nowhere near as contentious here in Sydney as it is in the USA.

Our current Prime Minister Tony Abbott when he was Minister for Health in the Howard Coalition Government, once pronounced that, "Abortion is the easy way out." That led to former Prime Minister Julia Gillard unearthing that quote and using it against him in her Misogyny Speech ...saying that she was very personally offended by that statement he made.

My opinion on this is the same as that of Hillary Clinton and the Democrats in the USA, that abortion should be Safe, Legal and Rare.

I have a real problem however with young men and women using the pull-out method otherwise known as coitus interruptus and then requesting morning after pills over and over again.

That behaviour is irresponsible and that is not a valid method of contraception. If you do not want kids, I feel like telling these silly young women and their boyfriends - then please just take the contraceptive pill or put a condom on your prick!

Oh dear...

[gypsyhelena]

Originally Posted by secret love

You Yanks puzzle me. Abortion is a controversial issue in Australia, though it is nowhere near as contentious here in Sydney as it is in the USA.

Our current Prime Minister Tony Abbott when he was Minister for Health in the Howard Coalition Government, once pronounced that, "Abortion is the easy way out." That led to former Prime Minister Julia Gillard unearthing that quote and using it against him in her Misogyny Speech ...saying that she was very personally offended by that statement he made.

My opinion on this is the same as that of Hillary Clinton and the Democrats in the USA, that abortion should be Safe, Legal and Rare.

I have a real problem however with young men and women using the pull-out method otherwise known as coitus interruptus and then requesting morning after pills over and over again.

That behaviour is irresponsible and that is not a valid method of contraception. If you do not want kids, I feel like telling these silly young women and their boyfriends - then please just take the contraceptive pill or put a condom on your prick!

Oh dear...

Tony Abbott's awful. I'm a New Zealander, and our prime minister's a shallow grinning idiot who's more concerned with changing our flag and meeting Katy Perry than he is with combating issues such as child poverty, but we're still better off in the prime minister department than you Aussies are.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by Feather Blade

Every single moment of every single day, civilized cultures deny people the "right" to kill other people. That's why we have laws against murder. This is NO different. Once the process has gone far enough that a fertilized egg has implanted and let the body know that there is now a viable pregnancy, nothing further needs to be done save the appropriate amount of growing time. At that point, you have a soul, you ARE a person. It doesn't take leaving the womb to become human. As far as the hope/dreams/friends/enemies argument goes, a 15 year old has more of those than a 10 yr old, a 10 yr old has more than a 5 yr old and a 5 yr old has more than a 1 yr old, that's just a product of experience. If I say that my life is more important than someone who has simply had less time to explore the world that's me saying some lives matter more than others and that's exactly the attitude that led to the Holocaust. If you aren't prepared to be a parent, then you don't have to be, there are lines of people waiting to adopt that child and give them the love, home and family that you for whatever reason aren't able to give. Just please, please, please, give some thought to giving just a few short months of time to let that precious little person have a chance to go enjoy all the things of this world that you get to enjoy because your parents thought that you were worth that. There are many, many organizations that help with the financial, physical and emotional support that someone might need to get through that period of time. Every single life is important and we are all able to even have this argument because our mothers thought that. I know that I can't be the only person who feels this way. Someone reading this right now is an adopted child who is thankful every day that they were given a chance, someone reading this is an adoptive parent who is grateful for a biological mother out there who gave of herself to see that the precious child they get to enjoy every day was saved, and someone out there who is reading this decided against the odds, against every instinct they had to not see it through, DID decide to stay the course and is grateful every single day of their lives for the cherished son or daughter that almost wasn't. I know that some of you are going to vilify me, and if that's the way it has to be, then so be it, it isn't about choice or lack of, it is about precious human lives and sometimes someone has to stand up for those that can't stand up for themselves. (Oh my...does anyone want to talk about music again?

Well how many adopted children wish they were never born? If life is such a gift how come soo many people are unhappy? Tit for tat - ****t for shatt

This discussion reminds of the movie Citizen Ruth - watch the absurdity.

[Feather Blade]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Well how many adopted children wish they were never born? If life is such a gift how come soo many people are unhappy? Tit for tat - ****t for shatt

This discussion reminds of the movie Citizen Ruth - watch the absurdity.

Hmm, I'm guessing YOU are unhappy? (just teasing) When there is life, there is always the potential that things will get better. When there isn't, well, all the beautiful what ifs can never be. I really hesitated to weigh in on this discussion as I am no fan of confrontation, and when it comes to the anonymity of the internet, people really seem to say a lot of mean things to each other that they wouldn't ever say when having a reasoned discussion face to face. For whatever reason though, something told me to mention those organizations that can help you through those months until you can get to the point where you can pass your child to the parents who so desperately want it. So, if I gave even one person something to think about that could lead to a different outcome, then that's a good thing. Now...I think LouieLouie is right, and we should try and steer this discussion back to the original topic, which was what was going on in Stevie's life that influenced what happened. Since times have changed so much over the years, I wonder if it had happened to her now, if things would have been different. Women have been in the workforce so long that nobody is expected to have either a family or a career, but not both. She has many contemporary friends now who have shown that you can navigate that path. Oh, by the way, happy early New Year to everyone!

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by Feather Blade

Hmm, I'm guessing YOU are unhappy? (just teasing) When there is life, there is always the potential that things will get better. When there isn't, well, all the beautiful what ifs can never be. I really hesitated to weigh in on this discussion as I am no fan of confrontation, and when it comes to the anonymity of the internet, people really seem to say a lot of mean things to each other that they wouldn't ever say when having a reasoned discussion face to face. For whatever reason though, something told me to mention those organizations that can help you through those months until you can get to the point where you can pass your child to the parents who so desperately want it. So, if I gave even one person something to think about that could lead to a different outcome, then that's a good thing. Now...I think LouieLouie is right, and we should try and steer this discussion back to the original topic, which was what was going on in Stevie's life that influenced what happened. Since times have changed so much over the years, I wonder if it had happened to her now, if things would have been different. Women have been in the workforce so long that nobody is expected to have either a family or a career, but not both. She has many contemporary friends now who have shown that you can navigate that path. Oh, by the way, happy early New Year to everyone!

You keep wanting to move on after you have said your peace. How typical.

The bottom line is Stevie chose to have an abortion and she had the last word. Pretty smart lady. Very responsible decision making even if her previous behavior was reckless and irresponsible.

PS. This world is already overpopulated. It doesn't need more babies to carry on religious theologies. The End of Days is already here through overpopulation.

[Feather Blade]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

You keep wanting to move on after you have said your peace. How typical.

The bottom line is Stevie chose to have an abortion and she had the last word. Pretty smart lady. Very responsible decision making even if her previous behavior was reckless and irresponsible.

PS. This world is already overpopulated. It doesn't need more babies to carry on religious theologies. The End of Days is already here through overpopulation.

And this isn't you having to say your piece last?

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by Feather Blade

And this isn't you having to say your piece last?

I didn't write a book like you did.

[becca]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

The bottom line is Stevie chose to have an abortion and she had the last word. Pretty smart lady. Very responsible decision making even if her previous behavior was reckless and irresponsible.

No. Many times not smart, and many times not responsible. The opposite of what was done does not get equal time with what has actually gone on. You can still admire her music without having to rewrite history or deny reality.

[becca]

Just on the Ledge it's been brought up many times...

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=44669

"the memory of four abortions" in the first line of this thread.

P.S. The number of seven has appeared in a couple of published books, but in the past when mentioned people have discounted them for reasons of the publisher or author being bad somehow in an 'everyone knows' fashion where i just had to take peoples' word for that. But then I thought 'everyone knew' there were multiple abortions.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by becca

No. Many times not smart, and many times not responsible. The opposite of what was done does not get equal time with what has actually gone on. You can still admire her music without having to rewrite history or deny reality.

It was smart and responsible to have abortion. She had no business giving birth with that lifestyle and she knew it. Many people have no business having children but they have been made to feel guilty. Many of those kids aren't given up for adoption but r raised by the screwed up parent. That is one reason why there are so many unhappy screwed up kids in the world.