male and female identities

[carrie721]

question for you ledgies. indulge my curiosity.

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

gents: what does "being a man" mean to you?

as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?

what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?

feel free to comment on the opposite sex, but i am primarily interested in what your perceptions are of your own sex.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by carrie721

question for you ledgies. indulge my curiosity.

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

gents: what does "being a man" mean to you?

as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?

what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?

feel free to comment on the opposite sex, but i am primarily interested in what your perceptions are of your own sex.

I'll chime in here. I think for men, they are generally plugged as the "bread winner" of the family (family with or without children). In my situation my wife makes nearly the same as I do, so tis not the case with me at this point in my life.

But growing up, my dad was the money maker...as it was with most of my friends' families. If sacrifice is the word, its the one most father's seem to make in that their relationships with their wives and children suffer. Maybe they lose sight of what it's about...but it seems that most men have good intentions...to provide for their families (I think its just an inherent thing built into us)...but then years go by and your wife leaves you, kids move away and you're left with "nothing" to show for it.

I've seen in a lot in my own family. It just seems to me that you make a life with someone, and outside of physical and emotional abuse, "boredom" is not an excuse to walk away from all that. It's a hard balance to strike. And even father's that make A LOT of money and are home more often have marital problems, etc.

Maybe its the day and age we're living in and maybe the issue is really about the state of love in our times....one thing leads to another. Am I making sense to anyone here? It's a fear that I have, as a man. I don't want to trade my family life/love for my work. I want my family to be first, but I know I must provide for them. Hanging on to them in the meantime is the hardest part I suppose.

[jannieC]

What a great post, Carrie. For me, being a woman means a lot. I've often thought to myself that I would never want to be a man. Even when I was a little girl, I felt that way. Anyway, I grew up in a totally egalitarian household (in spite of the fact that my father was the breadwinner and my mother was a stay at home mom), so male/female roles aren't as defined for me as maybe they are for others. As a woman, I have been raised to take care of myself, emotionally and financially. My mother made it very clear that it was important to rely strongly upon oneself- if a mate came along, great! But if not, I could survive. So, I'm fortunate that I was raised to be VERY independent.

At the risk of putting too much of myself here on the board, being a woman also means being a mother to me, which some of you know is not physically possible. Finding out I could not have children forced me to redefine some of my my goals and redefine what being a woman really means. Or, I guess what being a *mother* really means.

Sometimes I feel that society puts a lot of pressure on women to be a certain way, and I am fortunate that my immediate circle has not put such pressures on me (birth a child instead of adoption, etc). The field I am in is probably 95% female, which is great. I don't think too much about male female roles in my workplace because I don't encounter it very much. I think that it would be very difficult to be a NON typical woman (or man) in our society. No matter how much education, etc., people are still closed minded and scared of those who don't fit into what is considered to be "normal". Hopefully that will change eventually.

[suzyvermoesen]

mylittledemon; in my case it's a bit similar but different also.
When i was a child, most women/mothers stayed at home to take care of their husband and children and look after the house.
Growing up, i saw more and more women choosing for a career (and financial independency).Emancipation was in full swing and most of my girlfriends
left their parents' house to either go live with their boy friends or to rent a flat on their own. I moved out when i turned 21 and never really regretted it.
I liked living on my own, enjoyd my hobbies such as film, usic,reading,sowing my own clothes and dancing. I met the love of my life when i was 36
and eventually married him when i was 40.
At first i truly enjoyed taking care of all my husband's needs.
I cleaned,cooked,shopped,did laundry,ironing,managed our finances etc..
In short, i did everything my mother had done plus i had a fulltime job as well. So after a few years i started feeling that somewhere along the line
i had "lost" myself. I hardly ever read a book anymore or managed any other hobbies that i used to enjoy (except for going to the movies which my
husband also loves). It just seemed that i never had any time left for myself. In the meantime i have switched to a part-time job (i now work 4 days
instead of 5) and have made several attempts over the years to find/make time for my hobbies with varying success. This year i promised myself
to read at least half an hour every day and take more time out for myself. My husband helps with the ironing and cleaning, but i still feel that women are
better suited to "keep house" than men. (some exceptions excluded ofcourse) And, when i see my husband ironing his jeans, i do feel a twitch of guilt,
i just cannot help it (but trust me, i do resist it ). So my problem as a woman is that one part of me wants to take care of everything like my mother and her mother before her did, and the other part of me wants to be free of all those duties and there is also a small part of me that just wants to be taken care of,like in the old Gregory Peck movies.
Maybe it's because i grew up in changing times, maybe i'm too self centered (something my dad said to me once and it stuck ofcourse) I don't know . For me too, finding a balance is not easy... (does all this make any sense ? )

[carrie721]

brandon - so you are saying you feel driven to be a good provider for your family but fear you'll get so caught up in that quest that you'll end up neglecting your family?

Originally Posted by jannieC

At the risk of putting too much of myself here on the board, being a woman also means being a mother to me, which some of you know is not physically possible.

i would venture to say this is the crux of womanhood for the majority of women out there. i was talking about this with a friend last night, and whereas manhood, as brandon reflected in his post, is something that must be achieved, womanhood is something that is given to us and must be dealt with.

Finding out I could not have children forced me to redefine some of my my goals and redefine what being a woman really means. Or, I guess what being a *mother* really means.

i so get that.

Sometimes I feel that society puts a lot of pressure on women to be a certain way, and I am fortunate that my immediate circle has not put such pressures on me (birth a child instead of adoption, etc). The field I am in is probably 95% female, which is great. I don't think too much about male female roles in my workplace because I don't encounter it very much. I think that it would be very difficult to be a NON typical woman (or man) in our society. No matter how much education, etc., people are still closed minded and scared of those who don't fit into what is considered to be "normal". Hopefully that will change eventually.

and complicating matters, there are different standards for how men and women should act within different segments of the population, and often those standards are at odds with the standards held by greater society. for example: where does a traditionally masculine man fit into gay culture?

Originally Posted by suzyvermoesen

mylittledemon; in my case it's a bit similar but different also.
When i was a child, most women/mothers stayed at home to take care of their husband and children and look after the house.
Growing up, i saw more and more women choosing for a career (and financial independency).Emancipation was in full swing and most of my girlfriends
left their parents' house to either go live with their boy friends or to rent a flat on their own. I moved out when i turned 21 and never really regretted it.
I liked living on my own, enjoyd my hobbies such as film, usic,reading,sowing my own clothes and dancing. I met the love of my life when i was 36
and eventually married him when i was 40.
At first i truly enjoyed taking care of all my husband's needs.
I cleaned,cooked,shopped,did laundry,ironing,managed our finances etc..
In short, i did everything my mother had done plus i had a fulltime job as well. So after a few years i started feeling that somewhere along the line
i had "lost" myself. I hardly ever read a book anymore or managed any other hobbies that i used to enjoy (except for going to the movies which my
husband also loves). It just seemed that i never had any time left for myself. In the meantime i have switched to a part-time job (i now work 4 days
instead of 5) and have made several attempts over the years to find/make time for my hobbies with varying success. This year i promised myself
to read at least half an hour every day and take more time out for myself. My husband helps with the ironing and cleaning, but i still feel that women are
better suited to "keep house" than men. (some exceptions excluded ofcourse) And, when i see my husband ironing his jeans, i do feel a twitch of guilt,
i just cannot help it (but trust me, i do resist it ). So my problem as a woman is that one part of me wants to take care of everything like my mother and her mother before her did, and the other part of me wants to be free of all those duties and there is also a small part of me that just wants to be taken care of,like in the old Gregory Peck movies.
Maybe it's because i grew up in changing times, maybe i'm too self centered (something my dad said to me once and it stuck ofcourse) I don't know . For me too, finding a balance is not easy... (does all this make any sense ? )

makes total sense! suzy thanks for sharing your story. sounds like you've gone through a lot and finally struck a healthy balance, even if it's hard to see your husband ironing occasionally and i think your comment about the times you grew up in is spot on. women's roles changed rapidly in the 20th century, so it's easy to see why that would cause some fractured and sometimes contradictory feelings about what is expected of you.

thanks for the responses, everybody, keep 'em coming!

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by carrie721

brandon - so you are saying you feel driven to be a good provider for your family but fear you'll get so caught up in that quest that you'll end up neglecting your family?

Carrie, I would say mmm...enhh...yeah I guess so. It happened to my parents. I think my father was a very un-emotional person. His way of showing us he loved us was to provide for us. But his relationships with us suffered because of that. I love my dad, and being an adult now, I can understand him a little better. When I was young, I didnt get him, and I just thought Dad was a hard ass. I mean, I suppose the fear all that should keep me "in line" enough to maintain that balance. You know, not let the money-making take precedence over the rest. Then again, sometimes it happens anyway regardless.

[danax6]

Originally Posted by suzyvermoesen

mylittledemon; in my case it's a bit similar but different also.
When i was a child, most women/mothers stayed at home to take care of their husband and children and look after the house.
Growing up, i saw more and more women choosing for a career (and financial independency).Emancipation was in full swing and most of my girlfriends
left their parents' house to either go live with their boy friends or to rent a flat on their own. I moved out when i turned 21 and never really regretted it.
I liked living on my own, enjoyd my hobbies such as film, usic,reading,sowing my own clothes and dancing. I met the love of my life when i was 36
and eventually married him when i was 40.
At first i truly enjoyed taking care of all my husband's needs.
I cleaned,cooked,shopped,did laundry,ironing,managed our finances etc..
In short, i did everything my mother had done plus i had a fulltime job as well. So after a few years i started feeling that somewhere along the line
i had "lost" myself. I hardly ever read a book anymore or managed any other hobbies that i used to enjoy (except for going to the movies which my
husband also loves). It just seemed that i never had any time left for myself. In the meantime i have switched to a part-time job (i now work 4 days
instead of 5) and have made several attempts over the years to find/make time for my hobbies with varying success. This year i promised myself
to read at least half an hour every day and take more time out for myself. My husband helps with the ironing and cleaning, but i still feel that women are
better suited to "keep house" than men. (some exceptions excluded ofcourse) And, when i see my husband ironing his jeans, i do feel a twitch of guilt,
i just cannot help it (but trust me, i do resist it ). So my problem as a woman is that one part of me wants to take care of everything like my mother and her mother before her did, and the other part of me wants to be free of all those duties and there is also a small part of me that just wants to be taken care of,like in the old Gregory Peck movies.
Maybe it's because i grew up in changing times, maybe i'm too self centered (something my dad said to me once and it stuck ofcourse) I don't know . For me too, finding a balance is not easy... (does all this make any sense ? )

See, my ideas regarding all of this are so warped due to my upbringing (no mother around, my dad was in charge of our household even though he was a few years younger than I am now). I think that really changed my idea of what "being a woman" entails. I'm hardly a feminist, but for me women fulfilling the traditional role of taking care of a family has always really irked me. What irks me more is men who push this idea onto their wives/significant others (though I realize there are some women that love to do just that). I am as independent as they come, even more so growing up, because I was forced to take over all the things that were normally a wife or a mother's job since my dad had to go out and earn a living. Maybe that's why I resent it so much. I would die if I had to live like that.

On the other hand, my body and mind are telling me I do really want a child. I guess I just won't go about it the traditional way.

I don't know, I'll get back to you with a more specific answer.

[Stew_Matthews]

It is an interesting question Carrie, but difficult to know where you start

I think without having experienced life as the other sex, it is difficult to determine whether the expectations placed on oneself are because of your personality or sex. Is someone who is say, particularly driven/ambitious like that because of their make up or because of their sex? I don’t know. To what extent is personality determined by sex, again I don’t know.

I’ve seen enough of the world to recognise that much of it is dominated by the traditional definitions of men’s and women’s roles. There is a real absence of equality of opportunity and the West is little different, it’s just less explicit than in China for example.

In answer to the question ‘what does being a man mean’ for me – essentially it means choice. In most aspects of life, I have choices – where to live, what to do, who I spend my time with, how I spend my money. In large part, I think this is because I am a white, middle class male, to a lesser degree it is my educational efforts that opened up a good career in the oil industry. An industry that for women, is still pretty much closed off.

An interesting one to mull over…………..

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by carrie721

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

it means knowing that my place is in the kitchen, and speaking when i'm spoken to.

as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?

be pretty! of course it's fair; being pretty is the most important thing. i mean, i guess it's unreasonable if you're born ugly, but hey, if there weren't ugly people, we might not know what "pretty" actually means.

what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?

oh, i dunno. i'm too busy making dinner for my breadwinner to think about stuff like this!



good topic, carrie!

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by carrie721

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

Getting to wear better clothes! And I'm only half joking about that.
I've never wanted to be a man but I've often been envious of the opportunities afforded to men I've known simply because they are male. Even though I have an amazing mother, I've never defined it through motherhood either because that's never been my number one priority. I guess I'm saying I don't know I just know I'm pretty comfortable how I am.

Originally Posted by carrie721

as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?
what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?

I am 100 per cent a feminist and I've never understood why woman are so against calling themselves that. When I was a teen I read Backlash by Susan Faludi and The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf, and they have really stayed with me. When I was a kid I believed I could do anything I wanted and it was only as I grew older that I realised that I had less opportunities than my brothers. I definitely think I had to work harder and prove myself more. I also think I'm judged on how I look way more than men, and it's something I constantly think about: the negative and positive ways it can affect you, when it doesn't really have anything to do with your abilities. I've seen it happen so many times.
I also think women are often their worst enemies, they can be just as sexist, if not moreso, than men against other women, and that's pretty difficult to combat. Imagine a black person saying, "yeah, we really shouldn't have equal opportunities"! It just wouldn't happen but it happens all the time with women. Some think women really are second class citizens who should be relegated to the kitchen because that's what they do best, others think they are somehow better than other women and they are successful simply because they are special.
I dunno, it depresses me to think about it to tell the truth.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by Sarah

it means knowing that my place is in the kitchen, and speaking when i'm spoken to.

i told you to make me a sammich, woman.

Originally Posted by trackaghost

I am 100 per cent a feminist and I've never understood why woman are so against calling themselves that.

i think it's become a loaded word. these days it's often associated with male bashing, victim mentality, and gender politics, and many women - although they believe in equal opportunity/treatment for both sexes - do not identify with those ideas. feminism is supposed to be about choice but there is a lot of derision from feminists towards women who choose a more traditional lifestyle. so i can understand why some women would reject the label. i qualify it and say i'm an equity feminist. i think men and women should have equal opportunities but i don't like to spend much time in the murky waters of who is oppressing whom.

When I was a teen I read Backlash by Susan Faludi and The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf, and they have really stayed with me. When I was a kid I believed I could do anything I wanted and it was only as I grew older that I realised that I had less opportunities than my brothers.

this was pretty much my experience too. it wasn't till i was 15 or 16 that i realized that some roads are different or more difficult for women.

I also think women are often their worst enemies, they can be just as sexist, if not moreso, than men against other women, and that's pretty difficult to combat.

so true.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by carrie721

feminism is supposed to be about choice but there is a lot of derision from feminists towards women who choose a more traditional lifestyle. so i can understand why some women would reject the label.

yeah really. it's fun to listen to some of my feminists friends argue about traditional type topics.. like shaving, for instance. "are you shaving (or not shaving) for your husband? are you shaving for yourself?" and then it turns into this huge thing. in a way, it's almost going backwards, because it comes across as hens pecking at each other in the coop while the cock is off doing god-only-knows-what around the barnyard.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by Sarah

yeah really. it's fun to listen to some of my feminists friends argue about traditional type topics.. like shaving, for instance. "are you shaving (or not shaving) for your husband? are you shaving for yourself?" and then it turns into this huge thing. in a way, it's almost going backwards, because it comes across as hens pecking at each other in the coop while the cock is off doing god-only-knows-what around the barnyard.

right. it's silly.rather than sitting around worrying about whether you're being oppressed by the patriarchy, couldn't you be out ... doing ****?

[sara1998]

I hope what I say makes sense. Sometimes, I have a rather good point, just a hard time in getting it across.
Quick background: I was brought up in a fairly traditional household. My mother didn't work until I went to Kindergarden. My father always took on breadwinner responsibilities. Mom was always a "mom". She cleaned and took care of me. (my father is the cook...ha!) A very sweet and loving individual. I honestly don't remember much of my father as a child, because he was always at work, but mainly, because he let my mother raise me. He really didn't have a part in it. My mother is kind of meek... I mean, she can't even balance her own checkbook, where my father is a rock. Strong and independent.

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

So, now that I'm grown and have been out on my own for 10 years now, I have somewhat taken after my father. Strange but true. Meaning, I am a very strong, independent individual, and I don't rely on anyone for anything. I work full time, go to school part time, cook, mow the lawn, fix minor things around the house, pay all my bills with my own money. But on the other hand, I have also taken some after my mother. I raise my kid plus one that I willingly took on, clean nearly everything, I am very empathetic towards others, sympathetic, sensitive and loving, especially towards my children. I do all the household errands, and all the school functions. I apologize, because I realize that some of this, at least for me, equates being a woman as being a mother. But a mother is what I personally am first and foremost. As a single mother, I am forced to take on the role as man and woman in the household. Mental strength, independence, sensitivity, being loving, and being the household provider are just a few things that mean being a woman to me. That is all that I really know to do.

as a woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?

I think society's role perception has changed so much for women, however, there's still a traditional spin on it. Sometimes, I still think women are expected to be caretakers, soft hearted, pushovers. I think women are expected to be the primary caretakers of their children. Hell, I know some who think women should not be in the workplace. (hehe) And I think that sometimes, even when the woman does work, it is percieved to be the womans place to come home to cook and clean, while the men sit back and watch the game. I know this isn't always the case. When I was married, we both shared household responsibilities, but do you know how many women told me how lucky I was to have that?? That really blows mmy mind... And when something happens to a child, and say it was heard on the news, sometimes, the first words out of some mouths are "well, where was the mother when that happened?" What about the father? Are they not as responsible as we are? So, to an extent, no the perceptions are not fair. As far as living up to expectations, I only strive to live up to the expectations of myself and my girls. I'm not concerned with society's perceptions of me.

what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?

I don't know that I really place any expectations on myself based on sex. My expectations on myself are on what needs to happen to make things work.

[danax6]

Originally Posted by carrie721

i told you to make me a sammich, woman.

Yeah, did she not make herself clear?