Please Die Fighting for My Rights - Page 3

trackaghost · #31 08-12-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

If you dont believe in a heaven or hell, I suppose you dont believe in anything after this life. That sucks. Again, that's something I that would go against my very being to believe. This argument would go on forever, but without taking a stand on something we'll just go round in circles. Therefore we must end it...but it was fun!

Why does that suck? Maybe you'll appreciate life more knowing that this is it, your one and only chance. And maybe your motives are purer if you lead a good life without expecting some kind of "reward" at the end of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

Coersion...You can choose to love God, or not love him. To acknowledge his existence, or to ignore it. That is the right and privilege of this life. He loves us regardless, I believe that. If you go thru life believing he isn't real...pissing on your fellow man...hating...murdering...slandering...lying...then I believe you'd made the choice for vengeance (going back full circle to what we talked about earlier).

I hate to bring it up as it's a boring old argument but there have been plenty of terrible acts committed by people who believe in God. Also there's many great saints who lived very sinful lives and repented. The thought of God being a vengeful one is awful to me. But whatever gets you through the day.

strandinthewind · #32 08-12-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrie721

are you saying, then, that it's possible that the bridge falling is an act of vengeance? or that the towers falling on 9/11? or the tsunami? or any tragedy? that's absurd.

According to The Bible, God has shown His Wrath with far severer consequences. So, if you believe in The Bible's teaching, then it is not absurd. Personally, rather than calling it absurd, I prefer to say I do not think anything done on this Earth right now merits the Wrath seen in The Bible. I also think God worked through nature to exert his wrath in The Bible as opposed to the man made hate in the world right now. In the end, no one has the Batphone to Heaven. Som live your life as best you can and be kind to other people. In that, I think you will find whatever good peace you seek.

Also, Genesis teaches that there was good with no evil for the first two creations (yes, there are two in The Bible) -- but man's quest for knowledge could not allow that innocence to continue. Thus, evil became a force.

**mylittledemon** · #33 08-12-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trackaghost

Why does that suck? Maybe you'll appreciate life more knowing that this is it, your one and only chance. And maybe your motives are purer if you lead a good life without expecting some kind of "reward" at the end of it.

I hate to bring it up as it's a boring old argument but there have been plenty of terrible acts committed by people who believe in God. Also there's many great saints who lived very sinful lives and repented. The thought of God being a vengeful one is awful to me. But whatever gets you through the day.

It just sucks...i hate that people believe and feel that way. I appreciate my life more knowing that there is a better one to come.

What you're saying about rewards...It begs the argument that if "good people" go thru leading a "good" life believing in nothing....and choose to believe in no God...but find themselves in that place when they die...do they deserve to be there? Do their choices warrant that?

I suppose in the end, I could never make that presumption. Only you and God knows your own heart. And I suppose the God of this universe can do as he pleases.

strandinthewind · #34 08-12-2007, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

. . . If a man broke into your home, and murdered your family...and then shot himself...do you believe that man would be welcomed into "heaven"?

According to Catholic and most other Christian teachings (which have defined God (the Holy Trinity for the last 2000+ years) - if that man had acepted Jesus Christ as his personal saviour and had repented his sins prior to shooting himself and/or was insane - it is likely God would welcome him into heaven, though the suicide, not the murders, may keep him out of Heaven, according to some.

Christianity is all about repenting and sin is presumed before birth. Also, many faiths make no distinctions or minor distinctions amongst sins.

**mylittledemon** · #35 08-12-2007, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

According to Catholic and most other Christian teachings (which have defined God (the Holy Trinity for the last 2000+ years) - if that man had acepted Jesus Christ as his personal saviour and had repented his sins prior to shooting himself and/or was insane - it is likely God would welcome him into heaven, though the suicide, not the murders, may keep him out of Heaven, according to some.

Christianity is all about repenting and sin is presumed before birth. Also, many faiths make no distinctions or minor distinctions amongst sins.

I see your point. They are valid. Its a touchy thing. I dont believe that believing in Christ and repenting of sins covers future sins. That is a big argument among Christianity today. I believe we must be forgiven daily. I dont think many of us can go thru the day without doing something that grieves the heart. At least, not me!

strandinthewind · #36 08-12-2007, 02:02 PM

The creation stories in Genesis:

Creationists call us to believe the Biblical creation story as a literal account of historical events. However, Genesis contains two distinctly different creation accounts. Which creation story are they calling us to "literally" believe?

For generations, serious students of Scripture have noted stark divisions and variations in the age of the Hebrew, its style and language within Genesis. As we have it now, Genesis is actually a composite of three written primary sources, each with its own character, favorite words and distinctly different names for God. Such differences all but evaporate when translated into English, but they are clear in the ancient Hebrew text.

The first creation account, Genesis. 1:1 to Genesis. 2:4a, was written during or after the Jews' Babylonian captivity. This fully developed story explains creation in terms of the ancient near eastern world view of its time. A watery chaos is divided by the dome (firmament) of the sky. The waters under the dome are gathered and land appears. Lights are affixed in the dome. All living things are created. The story pictures God building the cosmos as a supporting ecosystem for humanity. Finally, humanity, both male and female, is created, and God rests.

The second Creation story, Genesis 2:4b to 2:25, found its written form several centuries before the Genesis. 1:1 story. This text is a less developed and much older story. It was probably passed down for generations around the camp fires of desert dwellers before being written. It begins by describing a desert landscape, no plants or herbs, no rain; only a mist arises out of the earth. Then the Lord God forms man of the dust of the ground, creates an oasis-like Garden of Eden to support the "man whom he had formed." In this story, God creates animal life while trying to provide the man "a helper fit for him." None being found, God takes a rib from the man's side and creates the first woman. These two creation stories clearly arise out of different histories and reflect different concerns with different sequences of events. Can they either or both be literal history? Obviously not.

Many serious students of Scripture consider the first eleven chapters of Genesis as non-literal, pre-history type literature, with Abram in Genesis. 12:1 being the first literal historical figure in the Bible. This understanding of Genesis causes an uproar in some quarters. In most church communities, little of this textual study has filtered down to the pew. But, in their professional training, vast numbers of clergy have been exposed to this type of literary scriptural analysis.

In my over 28 years as a pastor, I have encountered many people who are unnecessarily conflicted because they have been made to believe that, to be faithfully religious, one must take a literal view of the Genesis creation accounts. Faced with their scientific understandings going one direction and their spiritual search another, many have felt compelled to give up their spiritual search altogether. This all too common reaction is an unnecessary shame!

So, the next time someone asks you if you believe the Biblical story of creation, just remember the correct reply: "To which Biblical creation story do you refer?"

Rev. James W. Watkins has been pastor of Old South Church, United Church of Christ, Kirtland, OH, since November of 1993. Over a 28-year ministerial career, Rev. Watkins has been pastor of six churches. In addition to his pastoral work, Rev. Watkins is an author, educator, and community activist.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/2cs.htm

see also http://www.religioustolerance.org

trackaghost · #37 08-12-2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

It just sucks...i hate that people believe and feel that way. I appreciate my life more knowing that there is a better one to come.

What you're saying about rewards...It begs the argument that if "good people" go thru leading a "good" life believing in nothing....and choose to believe in no God...but find themselves in that place when they die...do they deserve to be there? Do their choices warrant that?

I suppose in the end, I could never make that presumption. Only you and God knows your own heart. And I suppose the God of this universe can do as he pleases.

Why would it bother you? As long as you have your faith why would you hate that others believe in something else?

And yes, if there is a heaven I'd imagine that a non-believer who has lived a good life would deserve to go there when they die and would be accepted with open arms. Do you think really think that not believing in God, or the right God or whatever, voids all their good deeds? The fact that you equate someone who doesn't believe in God with someone who deserves to burn in hell disturbs me. Having been brought up Catholic let me tell you, believing in God and even devoting your life to Him, doesn't automatically make you a good person.

danax6 · #38 08-12-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

If you dont believe in a heaven or hell, I suppose you dont believe in anything after this life. That sucks.

How does that suck? I certainly don't think there is anything after we die, we just become part of the eternal nothingness. At least I don't have to spend my life living in fear, thinking I might go to Hell if I don't live my life the way some unseen force wants me to.

Quote:

If you go thru life believing he isn't real...pissing on your fellow man...hating...murdering...slandering...lying...then I believe you'd made the choice for vengeance.

Is this 'and' or 'or' we're talking about here?

strandinthewind · #39 08-12-2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danax6

. . . Is this 'and' or 'or' we're talking about here?

Well, it depends - are we discussing specifically your own personal and usual night out on the town

**mylittledemon** · #40 08-12-2007, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trackaghost

Why would it bother you? As long as you have your faith why would you hate that others believe in something else?

And yes, if there is a heaven I'd imagine that a non-believer who has lived a good life would deserve to go there when they die and would be accepted with open arms. Do you think really think that not believing in God, or the right God or whatever, voids all their good deeds? The fact that you equate someone who doesn't believe in God with someone who deserves to burn in hell disturbs me. Having been brought up Catholic let me tell you, believing in God and even devoting your life to Him, doesn't automatically make you a good person.

It bothers me because I have a love for my fellow man.

Since yer asking me...I would also say the person who claims to be loving God and not loving his brother is just as bad as the non-believer who lives a good life.

danax6 · #41 08-12-2007, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, it depends - are we discussing specifically your own personal and usual night out on the town

How do you know about my night out on the town?

If anything, there was no pissing involved.

**mylittledemon** · #42 08-12-2007, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danax6

How does that suck? I certainly don't think there is anything after we die, we just become part of the eternal nothingness. At least I don't have to spend my life living in fear, thinking I might go to Hell if I don't live my life the way some unseen force wants me to.

Is this 'and' or 'or' we're talking about here?

You should read Michael Ende's "The NeverEnding Story"...In it, those that go into the "Nothing" become lies in the true world. Fiction yes, but it kinda supports your baseless belief. *wink*

strandinthewind · #43 08-12-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danax6

How do you know about my night out on the town?

If anything, there was no pissing involved.

One day, I gotta cross the pond again and me, you, and Gerald are sitting for a few hours in a seedy pub!

gldstwmn · #44 08-12-2007, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrie721

i'm not pigeonholing you, i was asking for clarification. because that's what it sounded like you were saying ... to me anyway.

i still think the idea of a vengeful god - whether that vengeance is exacted before or after death - is absurd, though.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

trackaghost · #45 08-12-2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

It bothers me because I have a love for my fellow man.

Since yer asking me...I would also say the person who claims to be loving God and not loving his brother is just as bad as the non-believer who lives a good life.

Erm, okay. So a good person who doesn't believe in god is as bad as, say, a pedophile priest. That's how that statement comes across.

Well, I'm not going to change your mind but it does make me sad, that you are living your life out of fear rather than love and you are basically judging people based on their beliefs rather than their actions.