Off-Topic: Elton John today

[Nikolaj]

Moderators, please move this thread to a 'General Discussion' or correct forum, I looked and couldn't find it, I'm sorry. I feel like I'm cheating on The Ledge, because today I felt compelled to register and post, for the first time, at another site, at eltonjohn.com because I wanted to support him. I suspect he's taking a lot of criticism about his Jesus comments released in the media today. (For those who don't know, Elton said his envisionment of Jesus is as a gay man who was compassionate, and the right-wingers are furious). I feel Elton did a good thing. I did mention, in a very roundabout way, Mick Fleetwood in my message at Elton's site, and I feel like sharing what I wrote, and again, please, moderators, if you get a chance, put this in the appopriate forum if there is one,
I don't want to upset anyone here. Thank You! PS- I know everyone won't agree with what I wrote, and what I did not reveal, but I wrote it as I felt it....
**
Thank You To Elton John from a Christian (posted 1/19/2010 on eltonjohn.com)

I am so pleased to be able to write my feelings about Elton's comments about Jesus being a compassionate homosexual. I am a Christian, and I think it is fantastic that Elton has opened dialogue about gays and Jesus, even though I am sadly already seeing bigotry and distortion in the media. I believe that every person of every sexual persuasion benefits from seeking a relationship with Jesus, and I believe that Jesus loves ALL who love Him and accept Him, those who try to put Him first in the way each believer conducts their lives. Some people just are gay, and gay people need to be able to identify with Jesus just as would any heterosexual.
Most white people seem to envision Jesus as white, which makes sense. There wasn't a ton of uproar in the '70s when some feminists needed to identify with Jesus as a female Savior, and many African Americans have an image of Jesus as black, because Jesus is their Messiah as well. So, I see it as a need to be closer with Him and identify and relate to Him. I don't see why it should be considered an 'insult' that a gay man would possibly see Jesus as someone who relates to homosexuals, or could have had homosexual tendencies. It may well not be a stretch that Jesus loves and approves of homosexuals, because He himself created gay people, meaning those who have no choice about their sexuality.
Most of us have a family member who is gay, and I think we wish all of God's blessings for those we love who just happen not to be able to have sexual and/or romantic attraction to the opposite sex. IT HAPPENS. You can't throw a surprise party for Jesus, He knows all and still loves those who truly love him. It's a 'come as you are' proposition being a Christian, you can be who you are, so long as you put effort into learning The Bible and seek the Salvation that does come to anyone who in their heart wants to love The Lord and does love Him and does the best that they can. He is not a God for only heterosexuals, and I think Elton John's comment(s) were brave and insightful, and I believe Jesus is GLAD that Elton has opened a dialogue, because Jesus does need to be on our minds and in our discussions.
The link I saw online to a British tabloid used quotation marks when referring to Elton's "husband" which is an indication of a biased slant, no quotation marks would be used if, oh, Mick Fleetwood referred to his "wife", and Jesus does not want us judging each other.
Jesus certainly does not want anyone who loves Him and wants Him in their lives to be told they aren't "deserving" because of their sexuality, because in actuality, in Christian doctrine, NO-ONE is deserving of Salvation or fellowship with The Lord, it is a blessing, it is a GRACE that is given to anyone who sincerely desires to be One with The Father and The Son.
I have read through and made notations in all 582 pages of the King James New Testament, and homosexuality itself is not enough to keep a person who loves Christ from being accepted by Him. --
continued in next message, out of room- but THANK YOU ELTON.
...(to end)
I think Elton John provided a valuable service in reminding the world that gay people think about Jesus and need to relate to Him. Let the judgment of all matters, including sexual preference, not be made against each other, but made by our Creator. Love Jesus and love one another.
By coincidence, I went out to Target and bought the 1970-2002 Greatest Hits cd, today. I have a lifetime of great music to appreciate tonight. Again, I also appreciate the good that may come from his comments. I think Elton John is a brave man, and it's necessary for gay people to feel comfortable to discuss Jesus Christ, though traditionalists want to deprive gays of a union with God. Elton's comments will ruffle the self-righteous anti-gay bigots, but hey, I fully believe that Jesus himself is a liberal. He'll welcome anyone who comes to Him.
It's about time gay people claim what is theirs, and I think that Jesus himself is smiling down on Elton John today, saying "Yes, I indeed do love my gay sons and daughters and only want them to love Me, and it's up to Me to sort out the rest!"
Well done, Elton John. A true national (and probably international) dialogue about something Eternal, something that matters has begun, different than the plastic surgery celebrities du jour and a golfer with an overactive libido making a public statement, just filling up minds without feeding anyone's Spirit.
Substance at it's best. If EJ reads these messages and sees mine, just know there's a Christian out there who thinks you have reason to really be proud, do not let the right-wing extremists get you down, you did a good thing, and I understand and appreciate your comments.

[rocknalittle]

Thank you- I am an open gay male, and I also have faith. That is just really great to hear other people supporting other people!

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

Most white people seem to envision Jesus as white, which makes sense. There wasn't a ton of uproar in the '70s when some feminists needed to identify with Jesus as a female Savior, and many African Americans have an image of Jesus as black, because Jesus is their Messiah as well. So, I see it as a need to be closer with Him and identify and relate to Him.
... He knows all and still loves those who truly love him. It's a 'come as you are' proposition being a Christian, you can be who you are, so long as you put effort into learning The Bible and seek the Salvation that does come to anyone who in their heart wants to love The Lord and does love Him and does the best that they can.

It's true if you seek Him, you will find Him and if people read the Bible they will get to know the real Jesus. He wasn't and isn't something we create in our minds of what God is - the white man, the black man, the feminist or the liberal... If anyone is interested in His life they should research for themselves by reading His autobiography. I recommend the New Living Translation, which is much easier to read than the old King James.

Start in the book of John.

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” - Jesus (John 8:32)

[Zombie]

Good for you, my friend. Way to show caring, compassion, and tolerance. And I mean that sincerely.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

It's a 'come as you are' proposition being a Christian, you can be who you are, so long as you put effort into learning The Bible and seek the Salvation that does come to anyone who in their heart wants to love The Lord and does love Him and does the best that they can. He is not a God for only heterosexuals - do not let the right-wing extremists get you down, you did a good thing, and I understand and appreciate your comments.

Romans 5:8
But God Demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we
were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 6:1
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may
abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer
in it?

John Chapter 8 An adultress faces Jesus.
The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman to Jesus who had been
caught in the act of adultery. And testing Jesus they said "Now Moses,
in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You
say we do?" And as they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and
said unto them, "He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first
stone."

And then Jesus said "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no
one condemned you?" She said "No, one Lord." And Jesus said to her "Neither
do I condemn you; go and sin no more.

Yes, we come to Jesus as sinners, but no where in the Bible does it state
that we are to continue dwelling in sin. The verses I pulled out of the book
of John backs this up. Especially verse 11 "go and sin no more".

You didn't particularly call me a "right winger", but everyone that thinks
homosexuality is a sin doesn't hate you. Nor do they want to control you
life. Many will tell you the truth because they are worried about where your
sin (all sin) will take you. And that's Hell.

Even if you don't believe in Hell, can you imagine not telling someone that
they need to be saved or need to repent? Love is the reason that some Christians
will try and lead you to Christ.

I have my own sins, so I'm not throwing stones at you. And I know that many on
this board are homosexuals by their own admittance. Some of my favorites on this
board are very open about it. I hold no hatred for them (or any others on this
board). But I wouldn't lie about my thoughts on the subject just to make friends.
And I do believe it is a sin. And I wouldn't want to be Elton John in the afterlife.
Christ commited no sin, He was and will always be perfect.

[tilthefirefades]

This is just my opinion, but I don't think people understand what it's like to be a gay male in today's society. For me, it gets harder almost everyday, realizing new challenges and new discrimination. Maybe I will just never understand why we can't just love each other, regardless of religion. Still yet good for Elton John for speaking about that.

[holidayroad]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

This is just my opinion, but I don't think people understand what it's like to be a gay male in today's society. For me, it gets harder almost everyday, realizing new challenges and new discrimination. Maybe I will just never understand why we can't just love each other, regardless of religion. Still yet good for Elton John for speaking about that.

I agree with you that the world would be a better place if people would not have hatred toward each other based on religious or sexuality biases. What confuses me a lot is that Christianity goes against itself so often and judges others when the bible says that they are to 'Judge not, lest ye be judged'. I don't base my liking of others on anything other than that they treat me how they would want to be treated.

[tilthefirefades]

^ Good for you that's very respectable of you.

[Angel69]

It's also stated in Leviticus "......and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you." (Leviticus 11:7)

As you can see, the book of Leviticus also prohibits the eating of pork (a swine is a pig). Of course, fundamentalists do not choose to use this verse to preach against eating pork. Sadly, however, they have no problem abusing the Bible to condemn gay and lesbian people. Remember, it's about their personal prejudice against gay people, not about a true desire to understand what the Bible actually says.




Fundamentalists also like to use Leviticus 18:22 to justify their anti-gay prejudice. That verse says, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Perhaps you have heard some people refer to gay people as an "abomination." They get the idea directly from Leviticus 18:22. But did you know...

The Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination:
"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)

[tilthefirefades]

Originally Posted by Angel69

It's also stated in Leviticus "......and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you." (Leviticus 11:7)

As you can see, the book of Leviticus also prohibits the eating of pork (a swine is a pig). Of course, fundamentalists do not choose to use this verse to preach against eating pork. Sadly, however, they have no problem abusing the Bible to condemn gay and lesbian people. Remember, it's about their personal prejudice against gay people, not about a true desire to understand what the Bible actually says.




Fundamentalists also like to use Leviticus 18:22 to justify their anti-gay prejudice. That verse says, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Perhaps you have heard some people refer to gay people as an "abomination." They get the idea directly from Leviticus 18:22. But did you know...

The Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination:
"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)

I was actually very surprised when I was reading the bible and came across this. I brought it up to a pastor, and he acted awkward about, and answered none of my questions. The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins is an incredible book, and addresses this directly. Everyone should read it, regardless of religion. It's not just an atheist's book, as most people seem to think.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

You didn't particularly call me a "right winger", but everyone that thinks
homosexuality is a sin doesn't hate you. Nor do they want to control you
life. Many will tell you the truth because they are worried about where your
sin (all sin) will take you. And that's Hell.

Even if you don't believe in Hell, can you imagine not telling someone that
they need to be saved or need to repent? Love is the reason that some Christians
will try and lead you to Christ.

I have my own sins, so I'm not throwing stones at you. And I know that many on
this board are homosexuals by their own admittance. Some of my favorites on this
board are very open about it. I hold no hatred for them (or any others on this
board). But I wouldn't lie about my thoughts on the subject just to make friends.
And I do believe it is a sin. And I wouldn't want to be Elton John in the afterlife.
Christ commited no sin, He was and will always be perfect.

And what kind of sanctimonious bull**** is that? That you are somehow so chaste and pure of thought that you can go around judging others and deeming who will/will not go to your so-called "hell?" Really? Is it still the Spanish Inquisition? You know what? Please stop worrying about others' souls and leave them be. Worry about your own conduct and the way you appear to sneer down at others. Believe it or not, we will all survive and live our lives merrily without your divine judgment of our ways.

[Nikolaj]

Thanks for tolerating this thread!
I'd like to answer iamnotafraid, and thank him for the Scriptures, many of which I am familiar with. There's so much to absorb, it takes a lifetime.
Here's my take on 'staying in sin', as you put it. It isn't possible for any human not to sin. I was gay before I became a Christian, and did, in many ways, live a sinful life, but my sins were not because of being gay. I've been born-again for nine years. I'm still homosexual. I'm on my second Bible now, nearly 1300 pages and haven't begun my page-by-page copying of written passages and written meditation on those passages. It took me about 3 years to do so with the 562 page King James version, and it was at times daunting, but it was also very freeing and life-affirming. Of the 29 books of the New Testament, I found inspiration especially from Acts, Proverbs, Psalms and Hebrews.
In my reading, I was very much affected by the wording "homosexual offender"--- (as in 'the homosexual offender shall not enter the Kingdom of God'). Notice it did not say 'the homosexual shall not enter the Kingdom of God'--
So, one interpretation of several that I have, is that a homosexual offender is-- someone who offends a homosexual! Like gaybashers, homophobes...They won't enter the Kingdom of God. So, they should be more careful of how they treat men that God himself created. I also interpret it to mean that some homosexuals DO offend God. So do some heterosexuals.
Now, I do believe that before my salvation, I was guilty of amoral and at times immoral conduct in how I lived as a gay man. That has changed. God is first with me, and any relationship I may have will have to be with a man who believes in and has accepted Jesus. Then only could I have expectations of a lasting relationship, one that God is overseeing. It hasn't happened yet. It may never happen. But that doesn't mean I can retry heterosexuality and make it work. In fact, it would be sinful for me to betray a woman (again) by trying to be something I just am not.
I am as He made me. You may be able to find scripture that states homosexuality is a sin; there is a potential for sinfulness in heterosexual lust, in all sexuality. Why homosexuality is still such an issue, I think, speaks more about the persons objecting, than of the actual act, or the way Jesus views it. That in itself is a lesson to those who take such issue with gays and it's a continuing lesson for me, and certainly I don't have all the answers and I'm still learning.
But, in accepting and receiving Jesus as my Savior, I'm not destined for Hell, which I certainly do believe is true, Hell exists. I have died to self and sin. I do seek God every day of my life. I am not enslaved anymore. I'm saved.
But, I will be a student of Christianity for the rest of my life, I will continue to grow in faith and to do so, I need to read and absorb New Testaments, Old Testaments, attend Baptist, Catholic, Methodist and churches of all denominations, to find where I belong. I have a very hard time with organized religion, but I don't give up. My relationship with Jesus is the single most important decision I have made in my life.
"I am not afraid"... I will go to Heaven.
Even if I s*** c***.
Sorry for the vulgar (edited) ending of this message, but imagine how you'd feel if you were told the only reason you were going to Hell was because your inclination, your personal truth, your instinct, was to have sexual relations with a woman. It would be preposterous.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

I'd like to answer iamnotafraid, and thank him for the Scriptures, many of which I am familiar with. There's so much to absorb, it takes a lifetime.

In my reading, I was very much affected by the wording "homosexual offender"--- (as in 'the homosexual offender shall not enter the Kingdom of God'). I also interpret it to mean that some homosexuals DO offend God. So do some heterosexuals.

I don't have all the answers and I'm still learning.
But, in accepting and receiving Jesus as my Savior, I'm not destined for Hell, which I certainly do believe is true, Hell exists. I have died to self and sin. I do seek God every day of my life. I am not enslaved anymore. I'm saved.
But, I will be a student of Christianity for the rest of my life, I will continue to grow in faith and to do so, I need to read and absorb New Testaments, Old Testaments. My relationship with Jesus is the single most important decision I have made in my life.
"I am not afraid"... I will go to Heaven.

Nikolaj you are more than welcome for the Bible verses. They were mostly
from the "NEW KING JAMES VERSION".

I'm glad you are studying the Bible. And like you I'm still learning too.
And you're absolutely right that heterosexuals can offend God by committing
sin, just the same as homosexuals. The other poster seemed to miss the fact
that I said "all sin".

I'm also glad you read my post and didn't seem to think I was saying I'm better
than anyone else. I struggle as much or more than anyone on this board. And
most times, right or wrong I stay out of these serious discussions. But I was highly
offended by what was said about Christ. He paid such a huge price for us all, more
than our human minds can comprehend. When someone blasphemes against him
it hurts.

[Nikolaj]

Well, you're welcome. But, it was very snarky and deceptive the way you copied and pasted my message, editing the point - the damned good point- I made about the 'homosexual offender' line- you totally removed my rebuttal, and attempted to change what I wrote by omitting two passages, yet made it look like that was the way I had written it by having it as 'Originally posted by Nikolaj"-- What you edited out was not what I originally posted, and you know it.
Not fair, not honest, and really, for all the nerve it took, I come away with the impression that you lack integrity. I win the debate by your default, and to be honest, I won it on merit.

Here's what you quoted, and I'm putting back in, bold, what you cut out that you couldn't handle or just chose to ignore:

In my reading, I was very much affected by the wording "homosexual offender"--- (as in 'the homosexual offender shall not enter the Kingdom of God'). Notice it did not say 'the homosexual shall not enter the Kingdom of God'--
So, one interpretation of several that I have, is that a homosexual offender is-- someone who offends a homosexual! Like gaybashers, homophobes...They won't enter the Kingdom of God. So, they should be more careful of how they treat men that God himself created. I also interpret it to mean that some homosexuals DO offend God. So do some heterosexuals.

OK- now that that's done with, I wish you well. Forgiveness is hard sometimes, in this case it's so easy, I don't even need an apology
P.S. Forgive your brother! (None of my business, I know!) But, forgive him! You'll feel better and it will please God.
double PS-- If "I" had a brother, I may not have turned out queer! I'm not complaining, I'm content with the truth. But he's in your life for a reason- God wanted it that way!
(Seriously, I do wish you well and don't mean to make light of whatever your situation is). Peace, bud

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

And what kind of sanctimonious bull**** is that? That you are somehow so chaste and pure of thought that you can go around judging others and deeming who will/will not go to your so-called "hell?" Really? Is it still the Spanish Inquisition? You know what? Please stop worrying about others' souls and leave them be. Worry about your own conduct and the way you appear to sneer down at others. Believe it or not, we will all survive and live our lives merrily without your divine judgment of our ways.

Me so chaste and pure? Did you really get that from what I wrote?
I wrote to the best of my ability not to sound judgemental. I wrote
about "my own sins". Without all the details I'm going through a horrible
time dealing with a family member. And right now I think I hate that person.
I believe it is one of the worst sins to commit, hatred for one's on brother. So
you're very wrong about me.

All sins lead to Hell. You might choose not to believe in such a place. And
the Lord has given you that right, or freedom to choose.

What type of person would I be, or any Christian for that matter, and just
pretended everything's going to be okay no matter what sin is committed?
Christ died in our place to save us from sin, yours and mine.

If you think I'm a horrible person I can't change that. If you look through
my post on this board I doubt you find little if any hate. Most of my post
are meant to be humorous. The reason I finally responded to this particular
thread was because of the blasphemy in Elton John's statement about Christ.