So Much for Sep. of Church and State
 

I get that praying is a great thing for the vast majority of Americans and that many are doing it now and hopefully it is helping. But, the words "I call upon all Americans to pray to Almighty God" is almost like if you pray to some deity other than "Almighty God," you are a bad person. I mean it would have sufficed to say "I call upon all Americans to pray." But, the far right and indeed most Americans just cannot resist shoving the Judeo-Christian God down everyone's throats and making anyone who does not believe in the Judeo-Christian God feel like a second class citizen, which this Proclamation does. Again, I am not saying people should not pray - In fact, I encourage that as I think it helps and I certainly have. It is the commanding of US Citizens to pray apparently exclusively to W's "Almighty God" that I object to.

to wit:

Proclamation by the President: National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of Hurricane Katrina

A Proclamation by the President of the United States of America

Hurricane Katrina was one of the worst natural disasters in our Nation's history and has caused unimaginable devastation and heartbreak throughout the Gulf Coast Region. A vast coastline of towns and communities has been decimated. Many lives have been lost, and hundreds of thousands of our fellow Americans are suffering great hardship. To honor the memory of those who lost their lives, to provide comfort and strength to the families of the victims, and to help ease the burden of the survivors, I call upon all Americans to pray to Almighty God and to perform acts of service.

As we observe a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of Hurricane Katrina, we pledge our support for those who have been injured and for the communities that are struggling to rebuild. We offer thanks to God for the goodness and generosity of so many Americans who have come together to provide relief and bring hope to fellow citizens in need. Our Nation is united in compassion for the victims and in resolve to overcome the tremendous loss that has come to America. We will strive together in this effort, and we will prevail through perseverance and prayer.

Americans are reaching out to those who suffer by opening their hearts, homes, and communities. Their actions demonstrate the greatest compassion one person may show to another: to love your neighbor as yourself. Across our Nation, so many selfless deeds reflect the promise of the Scripture: "For I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in." I encourage all Americans to respond with acts of kindness in the days ahead. By contributing time, money, or needed goods to a relief organization and by praying for the survivors and those in recovery efforts, we can make a tremendous difference in the lives of those in need.

Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath resulted in a considerable loss of life. We pray that God will bless the souls of the lost, and that He will comfort their families and friends and all lives touched by this disaster. As the American people unite to help those who are hurting, we share a determination to stand by those affected by Hurricane Katrina in the months and years ahead as they rebuild their lives and reclaim their future. We are determined that the Gulf Coast region will rise again. The tasks before us are enormous, and so is the heart of America. We will continue to comfort and care for the survivors. We will once again show the world that the worst adversities bring out the best in the American people.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim Friday, September 16, 2005, as a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of Hurricane Katrina. I ask that the people of the United States and places of worship mark this National Day of Prayer and Remembrance with memorial services and other appropriate observances. I also encourage all Americans to remember those who have suffered in the disaster by offering prayers and giving their hearts and homes for those who now, more than ever, need our compassion and our support.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this eighth day of September, in the year of our Lord two thousand five, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirtieth.

GEORGE W. BUSH

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...050908-12.html

Of course - he did this on 9/11 as well:

A Proclamation by the President of the United States of America

Hurricane Katrina was one of the worst natural disasters in our Nation's history and has caused unimaginable devastation and heartbreak throughout the Gulf Coast Region. A vast coastline of towns and communities has been decimated. Many lives have been lost, and hundreds of thousands of our fellow Americans are suffering great hardship. To honor the memory of those who lost their lives, to provide comfort and strength to the families of the victims, and to help ease the burden of the survivors, I call upon all Americans to pray to Almighty God and to perform acts of service.

As we observe a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of Hurricane Katrina, we pledge our support for those who have been injured and for the communities that are struggling to rebuild. We offer thanks to God for the goodness and generosity of so many Americans who have come together to provide relief and bring hope to fellow citizens in need. Our Nation is united in compassion for the victims and in resolve to overcome the tremendous loss that has come to America. We will strive together in this effort, and we will prevail through perseverance and prayer.

Americans are reaching out to those who suffer by opening their hearts, homes, and communities. Their actions demonstrate the greatest compassion one person may show to another: to love your neighbor as yourself. Across our Nation, so many selfless deeds reflect the promise of the Scripture: "For I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in." I encourage all Americans to respond with acts of kindness in the days ahead. By contributing time, money, or needed goods to a relief organization and by praying for the survivors and those in recovery efforts, we can make a tremendous difference in the lives of those in need.

Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath resulted in a considerable loss of life. We pray that God will bless the souls of the lost, and that He will comfort their families and friends and all lives touched by this disaster. As the American people unite to help those who are hurting, we share a determination to stand by those affected by Hurricane Katrina in the months and years ahead as they rebuild their lives and reclaim their future. We are determined that the Gulf Coast region will rise again. The tasks before us are enormous, and so is the heart of America. We will continue to comfort and care for the survivors. We will once again show the world that the worst adversities bring out the best in the American people.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim Friday, September 16, 2005, as a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of Hurricane Katrina. I ask that the people of the United States and places of worship mark this National Day of Prayer and Remembrance with memorial services and other appropriate observances. I also encourage all Americans to remember those who have suffered in the disaster by offering prayers and giving their hearts and homes for those who now, more than ever, need our compassion and our support.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this eighth day of September, in the year of our Lord two thousand five, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirtieth.

GEORGE W. BUSH

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0010913-7.html

This comes as a surprise?

I'm sorry but it doesn't surprise me, I think days of prayer are a great idea...just a shame they took it too far.

Also what is the go with the "in witness thereof....the two hundred and thirtieth"? What does the two hundred and thirtieth mean?

I think it means the US has been an ind. nation for 230 years.

hm. God's own country, eh.

^good quote.

OT, when you google "god's own country" (which I just did, duh) you get lots of links about Kerala, India. Uh.. yeah. OT.

:rolleyes:

If you don't like it then don't pray :shrug:

It's no secret our President is a Christian - what did you expect him to say??

Well, it is not just that. It is almost like he is commanding all Americans to pray to "Almighty God" and that is a violation of the Establishment Clause. Put it this way, what if he had called upon America to pray to Shiva, would that have been okay. So, it is a little more than "If you don't like it then don't pray :shrug: " IMO. But, if you are not bothered by it, so be it.

Finally, as I indicated, I expected or hope he would have said the less offensive "pray" and specified no deity as America is polytheistic, much to their chagrin.

He could have easily said to remember the victims in hurricane Katrina in our thoughts and prayers. Very simple.

Well yes, he could have left it at "pray" - but his is Dubya we're talking about - I mean there is nothing surprising in his declaration...

But I mean - in general - I think there is a general consensus (probably not among radical right-wingers) that "almighty God" is all-encompassing...that it's all the same God - with different paths to get to him....

I get the whole general consensus thing, but it is still offensive to many.

In any event, if I thought for a second that W meant it in that non-offensive manner, I'd be willing to go with that thought. But, I feel that this is another jab in a ling line of jabs by these people. Ever drive down the interstate and see the "UNDER GOD" billboards, which are clear F YOU's to people who do not believe in God and the people that put them up think those non believers have no place in this country except perhaps as a second class citizen. Similarly, the "under God" in the POA - it was put there to stop Godless communism and they originally wanted "under Jesus." I think the same thing applies with W in this instance. It is sort of like he is giving the secret high sign to the rabid Christians in this country.

But, to each their own and I hope you are right.

Okay, so now can we impeach him? :laugh:

See - and I've stated before that I simply don't understand why people are so offended by those words.....

If you don't believe in God then that's what they are - just words :shrug:

I mean I see how you're saying that it's an F-You - I just don't see it that way - but that's just me....and I also understand that a lot of it is the extreme religious folk and the radicals that people have a problem with - but man - I don't get the extreme offense people take at the mere mention of God :shrug:

Yeah, I am seriously tired of all this "praying" for this and "praying" for that. If there are problems and concerns out there that people wish to resolve, perhaps they should actually do something about it instead of just wishing and hoping that it will happen.

Like Ned Flanders said in a classic episode of The Simpsons when his house was destroyed by a hurricane and the town of Springfield banded together to rebuild his house (they did a ****ty job and his house collapsed):

"Well my family and I can't live in good intentions, Marge! Oh, your family's out of control, but we can't blame you, because you have gooooooooood intentions!"

It is not the mere mention of God - I do not think anyone really objects to that per se. It is in the way it is done and the reasons why. It is the pseudo commanding of people to pray to the Judeo Christian God, which is what he meant as I know of no other major religion (Buddahists, Hindus, etc. ) that refers to its deity that way. I support this by noting W will never say "pray to whatever deity you believe in." I mean if we are going for generality, why not do it that way - why let the alleged vagueness of "Almighty God" exist at all. W does not do it that way because he is beholden to the crazy religious people and he knows the vast majority of Americans will overlook this blatant slight to the theocratic minority because they are Christians or Jews and they could really care a less about anyone else. Thus, the state of religion infiltrating politics/government in America.

Honey - I'd have impeached him on the SOU address citing the reasons for war. Sadly, that will never happen because the D's are mostly complicit in that. But, yes, any excuse to impeach him works for me :laugh: It is getting over those legal hurdles that will be a pain in the neck :laugh:

The mere mention?

The man just called upon everyone to pray to God. You have your own beliefs and that's fine, but the POTU should not be wasting his time or our money in a silly attempt to shove his God down our throats.

LOL - that reminds me of a joke Dolly Parton told on Lemo awhile back. She said her father bought an old broken down and overgrown farm and through his hard work brought it into a renewed and productive state. Well, the local preacher man happened to stop by one day and praised the Lord for fixing the farm. Dolly said her father looked at the preacher, realizing he wanted only money, and said "Yea, well, you have seen it when the Lord had it by Himself" :laugh: :laugh:

Hmmmm, interesting...I would've thought you would've gotten a bunch of U2 hits. :shrug:

The auto-assumption that everyone has religious leanings that has been so pervasive lately just makes me sick.

It's like the same auto-assumption that everyone is straight. A co-worker of mine told me a story the other day- she showed me pictures of her two chocolate labs and said that ever since she got married her husband wouldn't allow her dogs to sleep on the bed. I said, "Well, in that case I would choose the dogs over the husband" and she said, "Of course you would!" - the concept being that, as a man, it would be impossible for me to "want" another man.

I just rolled my eyes and walked away...

I expect him to realize that not ALL the people of American are Christians. I know I have a Jewish friend who becomes very upset with Bush mentions "Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior" in his speeches. That should just NOT be happening. If he wants to urge us to pray, then he's postering himself as an evangelist, and not a President. The President should represent all peoples in this nation, and respect all faiths, including the fine upstanding people here who are atheists. One more thing....since hurricanes are considered "Acts Of God" just WTF are we praying FOR, anyway? That Big Bad God doesn't whack us again?? :rolleyes:

The Number 1 burning question on MY mind (and everyone else's Im sure) is:
do we get the day off?

How true! I was doing some local advertising with my community newspaper and my ad-lady was asking me where I had previously placed ads. We were talking about schools, stores with bulletin boards, etc. And then she said "You can do a lot of adverising with your church! What religion are you?" We also assume everyone is CHRISTIAN? I don't think so, toots! I was dumbfounded. I actually went to another paper.

To HELL with the legal hurdles! GET A ROPE! Vigilante justice for a Texan! Go Figure!

Maybe he's trying *ha-a-aaard* to rally the righties that have been wavering over the whole mess he allowed to happen after Katrina....and divert the attention of the 'non-christians'? Or maybe he is just that arrogant. Either way, it takes some of the Katrina fire off him.

Kelly :)

On NPR yesterday they did a report about the casinos of the Mississippi gulf coast and whether or not they would be rebuilding. They played a snippet from a local radio advertisement of a woman warning the residents of the gulf coast to not encourage the rebuilding of the casinos (even though thousands of people have lost their jobs because of the devastation) because "god" recognized the wickedness of building the casinos in the first place and that's why they were destroyed.

IDIOTS!!!!!!

On a similar note, did anyone see The Daily Show last night where they played footage of some "doctor" stating that dinosaurs did not exist millions of years ago- that they were in the garden of eden with Adam and Eve 4,000 years ago.

No wonder this country is where it is today. The stupidity of the human race is astonishing.

The Earth is flat ya know and anyone that says differently is subject to torture for heresy :wavey:

But you are doing an awful lot of assuming that he is "commanding" all Americans to pray. If you don't pray, then think of it as a "good thoughts" day.

The Jewish don't pray?

:rolleyes: They sure as hell don't pray to Jesus. If you're trying to make some sort of point, be more specific in your post.

1. He called on "all Amercians" not just people of faith in an official Order.

2. Why couldn't he have said "If you don't pray, then think of it as a 'good thoughts' day" instead of excluding those people in the phrase "all Americans?" Instead, he refers only to "Almighty God," which panders mostly to the Judeo Christians only. That is so obvious it is almost laughable.

I am going to just stay away from this thread. LOL. I am too involved with Real Property, Will Trusts and Estates, Commercial Law, Graphic Design, and Survey of Math...to get into a debate that a see NEVER ending. This tends to be a touchy subject.

All I have to say is, he isn't writing a law to make us ALL pray on that day! And also a country was founded on the notion that are rights are a gift from "our creator"...so I think it's sort of given that the head of the country can mention "Almighty God" or "Our Creator" :shrug:

Ok, I'm going away from this thread now.... :D

He didn't say pray to "Jesus"...I don't know...I could be wrong. :shrug:

You should read posts more carefully before you respond to them. Re-read my post and maybe you'll get what I was saying about Jesus. It has nothing to do with this current "call to prayer" he's doing. I was speaking about my Jewish friend(s) and their disgust that Bush is always yappin' about his savior. Even in public speeches.

What a cop out and typical for you - when faced with facts you either retreat or spin it to Clinton :rolleyes:

On edit - the words "creator" and "God" are not in the Const. and were purposefully left out. Nice try though.

Also, the Declaration of Ind. does not urge people to pray only to the Judeo Christian God. Rather, it speaks far more generally, to wit:

The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies

In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Well Geez Louise - Hell MUST be freezing over because we seem to agree on something again...'


I agree - it's not like he's making it LAW that people pray - there's no penalty for not praying- no one will chastise you (not anyone that matters anyway) if you don't pray :shrug:

Now if he enacted a law COMMANDING that all Americans pray his way -then ok there would be a problem.

Calling upon "all Americans to pray to Almighty God" is problem enough.

Oh Jesus. (ah...kinda fits the theme...huh?)

And then you have to go and say stuff like that. I was actually being very serious. You know some of us actually have lives outside of the ledge...so I can't devote all of my time to this.

And then you have to go all the way back to the thread, which is dead now, where I answered every single one of your questions, with facts and links...hell...even charts and graphs. But in return you never answered my question and I watched as the thread faded away. You keep complaining that I don't support my opinions with facts, yet when I do, it's not good enough and you run away from the thread all together.