Destiny Rules and Lindsey
 

After seeing Destiny Rules on VH1, I think I understand why Lindsey seems so frustrated.

Lindsey's Frustration!!!
 

:wavey: Hi Anthony...We surely DO agree with you!
What a convaluted way to do the bu$ine$$ of
making a record!:eek: Pu$h & Pull & Take $ides!;)
Lindsey sure was tired out by the end...so glad
he got his strength back to tour Brilliantly!!!Sky:)

Yes, but at the end of the day, he's still rich, and he gets to do what he loves. Forgive me for not breaking out the kleenex.
;)

frustration is a relative thing, yeah. But I think I understand it too. I admire him for 'trying'.

I admire him for trying - I just question his sincerity :laugh:

I mean does he really think Warners is going to advance several million dollars to an essentially and relatively commercially dead solo artist to make a record that will not be a commercial success. I am amazed that LB does not get this point. I mean I am all for him to make songs like "Come" and other stranger stuff. But, I think that if he wants to have someone else pay for him to do it, he better learn to compromise to Big Daddy with the Dollars. Its not like this is his first time making a record :shrug: Thus, I conclude that while LB likes to talk a good game about being a maverick and wanting to be anything but commercial, he fully realizes he needs to be a commerical success to have his luxuries, which I do not blame him one bit for wanting. I mean at least Stevie is honest about realizing that her music must sell to the massess for her to maintain her lifestyle.

I the end, I think LB's whole maverick schtick is rote a la the whole love affair on stage act that he and SN do every night nothwithstanding any real emotion they may otherwise have for each other. I think the maverick bit sells for him and FM. And, I think LB actually brilliantly walk the line and produces great music. :cool:

I think Lindsey "gets" all of it Strand. He just remains idealistic enough about what he believes music and art should be that he never gives up trying to take it there. There's no schtick involved, in my humble opinion. I think he's absolutely sincere about every bit of it and there's not a thing wrong with it -- whether its deemed "good business" or not. It's something I admire.

Jason, I'm not sure that your "have someone else pay for him to do it" commment is well placed here. I have seen no indication from Lindsey that he thinks he should get any kind of free ride.

I think it's OK to understand his frustration -- how it's important to be creative to remain true to your art but simultanuously having to acquiesce to commercial interests. He obviously understands this, judging from his final decision on the double album, but he still has the right to be frustrated by it.

It must be especially frustrating when he looks back at which of his songs have been FM hits: GYOW, Tusk, Big Love. None of those songs could really be considered "commercial" at the time of their release. Yet, now they are classics. So it is possible to release non-formula music that attains a level of success.

What probably is more of an issue, and one that the members of the band don't seem to recognize, is that FM is not going to sell millions and millions of new releases anymore. At best, they'll do a million or two. SYW hasn't gone platinum yet, as far as I know. So why not just go record some edgy stuff, get it out there and make your money on the tour? As it happens, the new album is not the dizzying commercial success they seemed to think it would be, commercial songs and all.

I think that if LB was a true idealist, he would have released GOS on the net and never subjected himself to FM. But he did not do that. He made that choice to go to the very commerical FM. Given their history, which has been beaten and rehashed to death over the last 15 years - hence my feeling that he plays it up a bit, LB certainly did not go into the FM sessions with blinders on. So, while I think LB (and FM and SN for that matter) really does want to make every thing as good as he thinks it should be, LB clearly wants commercial success and all the things that come with it.

I think people think I am being unfair to LB by saying this. I am not. I like LB. I think he is brilliant. I am glad to hear new music from him. I flew from Atlanta to Chicago to see his Soundstage thing. So, its not about disliking LB :laugh: I am just saying LB has a 25 year history of sort of appearing like he is so anti-establishment, anti-commerical, etc., but in the end he craves commercial viablity and always likes to appear like he is "selling out" to get it. I think after all of these years that feeling cannot be genuine - rather, I think it appears contrived after all of these years. I mean why else would he go back to the very commerical FM every time he needs commercial viability :shrug: Some suggest it is because of his love for SN. While I think that has alot to do with it, I also think LB realizes he likes the way he lives and FM can provide him with the commerical success to keep living that way mostly in his own terms - I mean the GOS songs on SYW are not THAT different than GOS solo copies we all heard :shrug:

In the end, LB could sell tapes out of the trunk of his Mercedes ( :laugh: ) and I would buy them because I like his work.

As an aside and just a general comment, I think it is so interesting people in general seem to think commercial viability is a bad thing. I mean its not like every song of the radio is horrible :shrug:

Carne - I totally agree with you. But, I think SYW has hit singles in it that could have been huge if the moon and stars aligned just right. So, although now it is not a huge commerical success, I think it was thought it could be based on the commercial viability of songs like SYHA, BTLH, TD, SYW, SG, etc.

I just am just saying I am amazed LB seemingly always returns to the highly commercial FM to record when he must know what "they" will make him do in terms of art and commercial viability. In the end, I think he loves being around Stevie so he sacrifices. That is the only explanation that works for me :shrug:

Also, I was not implying LB thinks he should get a free ride. I was referring to the conversation in the DR doc. where they are talkng about going with Warners because that was the largest advance. Interestingly, Stevie even mentions that LB might want to reconsider Warners and go with Interscope. I am just saying Warners is not going to advance millions of $$$ for a non commercial record. Clearly LB knows this :laugh:

Also...
 

He knows that there is a built-in audience for FM and those people will get to hear his music, unlike going solo, where he won't sell very many copies. :(

It's a double-edged sword, I think. Either play with FM and be called a "sellout" or put our your solo music and barely anyone hears it. Lindsey (Will He Ever Win?) :laugh:

ITA - he had many options available to him and enough resources to get the music out independently if he really wanted it released. But he didn't. He chose to make it a Fleetwood Mac project when he could have just started his own label and distributed it over the Net. Lauper did it, so does Aimee Mann. Rick Vito even does it (or did). He's a rich bastard, he could've gotten it out there somehow.

While I can see where Lindsey is coming from as an artist, his whole Todd Solendz/apartment bit was laughable. He'd be very disappointed and let down if SYW had sold 300,000 copies, so I fail to how he would've been able to cope with the miserable failure of a solo record. The fact is, he wants to be the "starving artist"-type and commercial success and money, but unfortunately, he's at that stage in his career where he can't really have both. He can either turn his material into Mac material and make some fast clams, or he can swallow a lot of money and put out the kind of stuff he wants to as an artist with no restrictions, losing a bit of money in the process.

Now, in order to sell a lot of albums, he succumbed to rehashing the band history and compromised his artistry. Yeah, he has a wife and three kids, but can anyone tell me that they can't live comfortably for the rest of their lives unless he makes a Fleetwood Mac album with commercial appeal? Puhleaze. He wants to sell albums, that's obvious. So he promotes them by talking about his relationship with Stevie ad nauseum, blah, blah, blah. It's a conscious attempt to sell albums.

His comment about Stevie possibly pulling out after 40 shows was also a bit lame. So, he was going to make SYW a double and eat the cost only if they kept touring and making steak? It's all just a convoluted mess. He wants to be commercially viable so he can sell as many records as possible, so that he rakes in the cash. But then, he wants to be the artist and release music on his own terms a la a double album, but only if he can be guaranteed that they'll continue touring and making dough. It's almost as if he's saying he wants to release a double, but only if the others keep at it so that he makes his money back that he's gonna lose.

I love the guy and his music to death, but he's simply out of touch with reality and lives in just a big a dream world as dear Stevie. The tortured artist routine is old; he can bitch all he wants, but no one is forcing him to do anyhting he doesn't want to do.

Just my thoughts, don't flame me, Carne. :laugh: :wavey:

Re: Also...
 

But this is the man that said if his music only reached the right couple of folks, he would be content and satisfied because at least two people heard it. ;) :laugh:

Sorry, if Kathie Lee can sell 32,000 copies in todays market, Lindsey could at least double that figure. :laugh:

I guess I missed the memo on what a "true" idealist is. ;)

Blinders? No. But he clearly thought he went with FM with what he thought was buy in from Mick to do a double album. That means he thought he was going to be able to get more his music to a broader audience, which I think is quite important to him. It also means he thought that the bigger artistic statement that he saw the double ablum as being, wasn't something he was going to have to battle for so hard this time around.



Your assumption is that he wants to reach a broader audience because he wants more money/luxuries. That's not an equation that I make.

I don't think you're unfair. It just appears to me that you don't take him particularly seriously. You said something about how "at least Stevie is being honest about wanting to make money." That's fine if you feel that way. But just because Lindsey is willing to make less money in service of a different sort of artistic statement doesn't make him less honest. He's just got different priorities.

You seem to feel that his talking about being an artist first, with everything else about the business being secondary to that is all a put on and has always been a put on. I think that's a remarkably cynical view to take of him. That's all.

I disagree. I think he loathes the idea that one would think he's selling out.

So, I guess I'm trying to understand. Do you think everything he said in the documentary was all for show and really it was an elaborate ruse to make sure that nobody would think he was really just dying to roll around in mounds of cash? Wouldn't simply going with an easy single album, and skipping all of the money talk in front of the cameras have been a slightly more straightforward and simple way to do that?

He's said hundreds of times by now, I dare say, that he's far more able to appreciate the chemistry of the band now and feels it's very special that they can all still come back together and still feel the spark of doing something special. He's also said it's a lot easier to get material released under the name of Fleetwood Mac because labels open the door for Fleetwood where they close the door to Buckingham.

Well, by the same token, I guess I think it's odd that some are seemingly offended by the notion that making the most money he can possibly make on every project isn't his main motivator.

I was getting the idea that LB certainly is interested in the commerical appeal and the money that comes with it from his own statements that he has a wife, a new house, and kids. In the doc., he stated he was concerned about supporting them in his well earned and well deserved lifestyle through the music on SYW and the subsequent tour revenues. Thus, my problem with LB's acting like the tortured artist always being forced to bend to the evil commercial side of music when he repeatedly and clearly does it of his own free will. Its a little bit like the boy who cried wolf once too often. After 25 years, his credibility when he says the band, the record company, etc. made him sacrifice his art is a bit tarnished.

I mean after 25 years and a very recent self-admitted snub by Warners, I just cannot believe LB would think that FM and Warners were not going to assert creative control over him, esp. after LB consciously chose Warners and accepted their millions in advance. Again, his GOS songs were not that changed for SYW, the lyric change Peacekeeper being the only possible exception and he stated he did not have a problem with that. In the end, I think record execs. and FM know that although the tension in FM is real, a played up tension sells more. They have been relying on this theory for 25 years. Just as I think there is very real emotion behind SN and LB's clearly contrived current stage antics, I similarly think that although LB (and SN for that matter) clearly has artistic integrity, LB likes to make a show of it because he and Warners know it will help sell the product - it was in all the press surrounding the release of the record and here it is again. I mean who would have watched the doc. but us ( :laugh: ) if everyone got along :shrug:

Interestingly, La Nicks came across as a savy businesswoman on the doc. She is well aware of the need to be commerically viable if she wants to maintain "the lifestyle" and she is still commerically viable although to a much lesser extent than she was in the 80's. Who would have thought our airy fairie Stevie could be so practicle :laugh: Also, I thought Stevie went out of her way to make sure LB's feelings were not hurt ("I touch with gossamer wings" ). I thought she was not screaming at him like a harpy - except perhaps unintentionally in vocal warmup to Silver Girl :laugh: I am glad those two have reached this place in their lives and am even happier with the music that comes from it :cool:

I the end, I think they made a band decision to release the 18/20 songs because that is what they are - a band :shrug:

Okay, I agree with these statements to some extend. But the same tension produced Tusk. And with all the arguments in the world you can never state that he was going for the bucks on that one. And he didn't write the music on SYW with that in mind. Those songs were meant for his fourth commercial solodisaster. The choice for the mac-evironment to put it out came with the commercial opportunities that stick to that brand name. And once that decision was made, he tried to have it as risky as possible, but had to push aside some basic artist-principles. IMO that is a pity, because this album and tour does NOT have the artistic riskyness that Tusk-and tusktour had, although their position right after rumours was completely different ofcourse, this album and tourCOULD have been a real artistic revelation when he REALLY had pushed the envelope like he so joyfully speaks about.

But, on the other hand, you were at his soundstage-performance. Did you question his artistic integrety after that gig?


gerald:wavey:

My difficulty with your argument here is that this situation has never been black and white. He's always said he'd like his material to reach a bigger audience than it does. He's never said he wants to be a starving artist. In the documentary, he was not suggesting that he, in fact, is like Todd Solendz in material wealth. He was trying to make an analogy for Mick to try to convince him that making the most money possible on the project doesn't have to be the only measure of success.

Yes, he did it of his own free will. Part of the reason we know this is because he clearly says so on the tape. There is no talk of being forced.

However, I don't think there's any question that if he'd gotten his way, the album would have been a double. He made his decision after trying and trying and trying to convince his bandmates to go in another direction, and offering to take far less pay so that they would still make everything they wanted. As for the final battle that really made him change his mind --- since that's not shown, I don't think we'll really quite know exactly what all went into that. Mick's and Lindsey's vague and ambiguous comments suggest a really aggressive argument took place. Whatever it was, it was enough to convince Lindsey to change his mind.

He made a compromise. Because he made that compromise, he's now a total fake and always has been??

Had Lindsey not compromised and pulled out of the Mac project after two years of promises in the press of a new Mac album, I can only imagine the labels splattered all over him for doing that.

Lindsey wasn't the only one involved in the decision. He said they almost signed with Interscope. Then Warners offered a bigger advance. He alone didn't make the decision to go with Warners. If the decision was left up to him and him alone, we don't really have any idea what Lindsey might have done. He might have stuck with Warners and he might not.

Here again, I just see a fairly intense amount of cynicism in your comments. How does telling everyone that Warners didn't like his material as a solo artist help sell the album when that same basic material is on the album? I guess I just disagree with you here. :shrug:

I don't think it's really a big surprise, but we obviously just have different perceptions about the kind of artist Lindsey is.

I thikn Lindsey wants it to be known that he is concerned about such things because he has always been very conscious about how he is perceived by others in the music industry. He seemed to be very upset by the fact that experimental bands thought so little of him because of his association with Fleetwood Mac, and that carries over to his attitudes today.

I also think that, though he may not admit it, LB craves fame and "mass adulation" and that is impossible to get outside of Fleetwood Mac for him. I think that draws him much more than the monetary aspect - knowing people hear him and love him. :)

Yes, I too rolled my eyes at the "I have a family, a house to pay for" line. PUH-LEEZE. I think you're right that he wasn't really prepared to eat the money as he claimed.... that he was only willing to do that if he knew he would get his money back through touring and be none the worse. In that sense, money does seem to be a consideration for him.... Im' not denying that.

I do find it extremely difficult to believe he would knowingly lie bald-faced to fans with the motive to make himself look like a tortured artist in order to sell more records. Frankly, I think that's ridiculous. The man is not Machiavelli! He wants to sell records. He wants to make money. But he's not so depserate that he'd resort to such elborate and unethical machinations to get a few hundred more records sold. In the end, how many would really buy an album based on that anway? As for Warners being in on it - yeah, I'm sure they're willing to appear to be greedy artist-hostile execs in order to help Fleetwood Mac sell a tiny amount more. Yeah, right.

I know you love LB's music, but you sure don't seem to respect him very much as a man. That's too bad. :(

You think? I think Lindsey actually did get some recognition from those circles. I recall a Musician article from 1981 in which the writer discusses how Lindsey was actually quite respected in some of those musical circles. I'd be sure that he was thrilled down to his toes that he and Laurie Anderson were able to strike up a friendship.

The largest difference is the same basically unchanged GOS material has La Nicks on about 2/3 of the tracks and is being released as a FM project. Warners has no problem with this because they know it will sell at least enough to pay for the outrageous recording costs, etc.

Also, I think LB is a great artist. In fact, I have never really seen a greater player in my life and I have seen many. I just think LB, SN, and FM are savy in their marketing in that they play up what sells. I mean no one made them dish all this dirt and I can assure you it did not just happen by accident no matter how true it is. I mean they talk about it in every interview and have been since 1977 :shrug: None of this changes my impression of LB as an artist - it just reaffirms my suspicion that he wants his cake and eat it too - and I do not blame him one bit because I would do the same thing :laugh:

People Please :laugh:

I am not saying LB and SN sit around at night and make a script or that they are not telling the truth. I do not think that. I am merely saying the fact that in every interview since Tusk all they talk about is the relationship troubles and all of the drama around that as well as LB constantly saying "I want to do everything completely and totally different than what has been done and considered mainstream" may be true - in fact I think he does that and am glad he does - but I am saying FM enhances this image because it is drama and drama sells :cool: I do not fault them or disrespect them fpor that.

The only disrespect I have for LB was his decision to leave the band after the TITN tour was booked. I thought that was a bad thing to do. But, I am over it :laugh:

Who says there were outrageous recording costs? Just curious. Part of the reason they rented the house was because it cut way, way down on booking expensive studio time.

As to the rest of your post, I don't follow how this goes with your previous statement. Any album released by FM is, well, an FM album and will sell better than a solo album. So how does all of Lindsey's "pretending" to be a tortured artist who couldn't get his work out help sell the album again??

Well, not to quibble Strand, but you started out the first several posts in this thread saying exactly that. No? You think Lindsey is not telling the truth. That he's just making up some fake personality and fake principles to try to impress somebody and to sell a product, not because he might actually be the person he's purported to be for 30 years. ;)

Look up rent in Bel Aire. I think you will see it is not cheap. Then there was the cost of moving state of the art equipment in there. It does not take a stretch of the imagination to get to figure of well over a million very quickly.

Also, if you cannot see LB loves the tortured artist persona and has for the last 25 or more years, I certainly am never going to be able to change your mind :laugh:

No kidding, Bel Air is expensive! ;) However, Mick gave more than one interview saying that it was less expensive to rent the house than pay for studio time.

I think Lindsey is himself. If he loves himself, then sure, he loves whatever "persona" that gets across. Hehe. :D

No I did not. I said LB may think he is being a genuine maverick or whatever, but in the end he goes for the commercial aspect. I think he plays on this in an attempt to keeo the public's interest. For example, in the PBS interview with Charlie Rose, did you notice how he skited answering the question about his relationship with SN. Why not just answer the question? Well, I think he does not answer it because he knows that the more vague he is the more people will talk about it.

Again, I think you guys think I am implying that LB is an a$$hole who will do and say anything for a buck. I am not. I am just saying he likes the commercial aspect of being one of the greatest guitarists ever and I do not fault him for that. I just get a little tired of his "I'm a tortured artist that is forced to be commercial" attitude. I think it is a little contrived because he has been being commercial for 25 years against his will :laugh:

I could have this totally wrong, but didn't I read that LB and his family lived in that house for awhile while his house was being built and FM got it later on? So, the recording equipment could have been LB's and could have already been there. Oh it is sad when the memory goes :laugh:

Sorry, guess I was thrown off by the comments about his "schtick" being "rote" and his personality and professed feelings about music being "not genuine" but "contrived". ;)

Yep, he's made some commercial decisions in his lifetime. He's also consciously made several that are not.

But context is always important. Clearly, Lindsey isn't the most radical, maverik, free-wheeling type out there. But within the context of the band, he is the maverik.

PS - I don't believe the house they rented for the album was the house he and his family lived in. But I do think the studio equipment they used in the house was probably Lindsey's.

I honestly think the general canned answers LB and SN give in every single interview for the last who knows how many years are for the most part rote and not contrived? Ditto for the Landslide hug and all of the other stage stuff done to perpetuate their highly publicized doomed love affair that most believe ended 30 years ago :laugh: That is what I think is rote and contrived. As I stated, I think the feelings behind those onstage antics and LB's perception of himself are real. I think LB views himself as a tortured artist. I just think "they" made a decision to play these things up because it keeps the public interested - e.g. the same Landslide hug they have been doing since The Dance gets huge applause every time :shrug: :cool:

I don't argue about the Stevie and Lindsey show. But you're comparing apples to oranges. Discussing the way Lindsey and Stevie perform, isn't the same thing as questioning the very essence of what Lindsey's says is important to him about his music. You're not questioning the very essence of who Stevie says she is and what is important to her about her work because they hug in the same place during the same song in every single show. The two things aren't really related. At least they aren't to me. :shrug:

I am not questioning that quality in LB except perhaps in general. I think the shows, the interviews, and this doc. are all part and parcel of the same marketing thing. I think they all touch on those areas we discussed that the public wants to see. Again and to be clear :cool: :laugh: , I do not think these rote activities make them less genuine or take away from their artistic integrity. I just think they are done to promote interest in FM.

Again, I do think LB views himself as a tortured artist and he is that in many ways. I just think he is not willing to give up commerical success as much as he aludes to do. But, hey - maybe his is willing to do so after 25 years of coming back to it :laugh:

Okay. I suppose I'm just not all that convinced that the public is clamboring to see Lindsey fretting because that's going to make them buy records. :shrug:

I think it is hogwash of a theory as well. But it certainly has us a talkin' :cool: So :shrug:

By the way, "fretting" as in worrying. Not "fretting" as in playing guitar. :laugh:

I was wondering which you meant!!!!! :laugh: :laugh:

Apprently, LB can frett with the best of them no matter which definition!!!!

Jason, at the risk of getting slammed again for nuance, I will say this: craving success and craving commercial viability are not necessarily the same. Yes, they go hand in hand, but what really is success? I'm sure Lindsey doesn't view it as monetary succes. What I see is a guy who is always slightly irritated that success is measured by commercial viability and that commercial viability is an unfortunate necessity.

Translate that into your own lives. I for one am often irritated that I have to bust my rump to put money in the pocket of some multimillionaire capitalist while I get crumbs. Now I'm not complaining because I have fared well. But it's still just crumbs in comparison.

Bingo, Les! The guy was hurt that he wouldn't be able to get as much music as he wanted out, after all those years. I can certainly understand it.

Quote:

Your assumption is that he wants to reach a broader audience because he wants more money/luxuries. That's not an equation that I make.

Once again, I fully agree with this, as I explained in my previous post.

Touche' Carne!!!!

I think you're way off there. A lot of the alternative bands have come clean about Lindsey, Camper Van being the most salient example. Besides, how he is perceived is not what motivates him. What motivates him is getting music out that means something to him and that isn't just pablum.

But I agree with this:

Quote:

I also think that, though he may not admit it, LB craves fame and "mass adulation" and that is impossible to get outside of Fleetwood Mac for him. I think that draws him much more than the monetary aspect - knowing people hear him and love him. :)

He's a complicated man. A lot of people are.

Quote:

I think you're right that he wasn't really prepared to eat the money as he claimed.... that he was only willing to do that if he knew he would get his money back through touring and be none the worse.

Again, I think you missed the mark here. He said the label would pay FM for 12 songs. He was willing to forgo royalties on most of his contributions and collect on only two or three. I think he was sincere.

And by the way, this is not unusual. Other bands do this. I know of bands that have released 17-, 18-, 19-cut albums and got paid for only 10 or 12 songs.

The 12 song thing is at that price of a single record. If they chage more for the CD, the artist gets paid. Apparently, LB at first wanted to charge more, but realized that might not work, etc.