tensions in FM - still creative or not anymore?

[elle]

looking at pretty amazing charting (and trending on FB, she's almost unavoidable all of the sudden!) of SN's upcoming album preorders, i asked in one of the other threads whether if hugely successful she might be tempted to go exclusively solo.

this response in particular i found thought-provoking:
At this latter stage in their careers, Stevie and Lindsey will be part of Fleetwood Mac until the end. They maintain a healthy creative tension between the two of them

do we really think their tension is still creative at this point? or has any lingering "tension" become more arresting to any creative growth FM might still have?


right now, with numerous oldies tours and without an album in the last decade, FM seems to be just the means of capitalizing on their past glories and grabbing tons of money for its members... not the creative outlet. can it be that the last instance of creative tension in FM was actually in the early 80s, during Mirage era? Tango was mostly created by Christine and Lindsey with very little participation from Stevie, and Christine and Lindsey seem to complement each other ending in more of a creative synergy than tension, and their recent interviews seem to attest to that synergy being still strong and highly creative.

the last album rumours-era FM released was SYW, and various fans (and SN herself, i believe?) have argued not only that the tension was not healthy or creative but that it was instead counter-productive - that Lindsey's songs were better in their original GOS shape without adding Stevie on them, and that Stevie's songs were better as demos, without Lindsey's contributions to them. and then there was their most recent output - EP, on which there was no creative tension considering Stevie was mostly absent from it, and contributed one song from 1974 which has been also argued by fans that is worse on the EP than the original demo.

so where is that supposed creative tension in the last 30+ years and is it really still healthy or helpful? Stevie has been pretty adamant that she doesn't need or like tension in order to create anymore, while describing how great making of IYD was since there was no tension between her and her collaborators.

meanwhile, FM album has been on hold since 2010. it was started and aborted in 2012, and then again worked on in 2014 with the addition of Christine, and is now again on back burner waiting. so how is the tension creative?? no new album for 10+ years doesn't seem very creative to me. :shrug:

[Bandon]

I think there could be tensions if the Dave produced version of "Twisted" is great. Oh..and a hit single. :nod::nod::nod:

[elle]

I think there could be tensions if the Dave produced version of "Twisted" is great. Oh..and a hit single. :nod::nod::nod:

ha, i forgot about Twisted when talking about creativity together! i guess that may be the more recent example. i love Stevie/Lindsey version of Twisted, while Stevie solo one i found boring.

although, not sure i understand how the possible success of yet another Stevie's solo version of Twisted, without LB's involvement, would make any tensions between them in FM creative?

[Iamwilliame]

I'll be shocked if a new album ever gets made with Stevie's involvement. I just don't think her heart is in it. The only reason I think she chose to tour is because of Christine and, of course, John's health and the possibility that time is running out for this full lineup. Some Lindsey and Christine tracks will probably turn up on another compilation to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the Rumours lineup. Stevie might add some backing vocals and donate a song from the vault produced by Dave. It wouldn't surprise me if she officially left the band after next year.

Also, Lindsey is not the producer he was 30 years ago. I feel he has become too locked into a particular sound that does not complement Stevie at all. I think the chemistry between LB and CM is good and could lead to more collaboration but the well has run dry for Buckingham/Nicks.

Honestly, I would like to see them scale things back and cut some of the studio time and sonic gimmicks. I want to hear them sound like a band again and go out with some integrity. This is the only way I can see new recordings with SN fully on board happening.

I hope I'm wrong. I love this band and want the final chapter to be more than a farewell tour with a tired setlist.

[WatchChain]

I'll be shocked if a new album ever gets made with Stevie's involvement. I just don't think her heart is in it. The only reason I think she chose to tour is because of Christine and, of course, John's health and the possibility that time is running out for this full lineup. Some Lindsey and Christine tracks will probably turn up on another compilation to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the Rumours lineup. Stevie might add some backing vocals and donate a song from the vault produced by Dave. It wouldn't surprise me if she officially left the band after next year.

You've made some valid points there. As far as recording with THE MAC, I think Stevie is indifferent at this point. She's only touring for Christine and John's health. In addition, I think STEVIE NEVER EXPECTED THAT CHRISTINE WOULD RETURN. IN FACT, I THINK THE RETURN OF CHRIS HAS REALLY THROWN A LOOP IN STEVIE'S PLANS. Moreover, I don't think she's as happy about "the return" as she would have some people believe. Don't get me wrong, she loves Chris, but I don't think the two are that close anymore. I can't picture them talking on the phone more than once every two years since 1998. They just don't seem to have that much in common. HOWEVER, I DO think THE MAC will release a new album sometime next year. Dave Stewart will produce Stevie's tracks, and Stevie will just go in and add some background vocals to Chris and Lindsey's tracks.

[Danigirl]

I'm hoping Dave has NOTHING to do with anything FM related. That album would sound like a few Solo Stevie songs sprinkled with Lindsey and Chris. Dave has a very simple way of arranging Stevie's demos, which are fine for a solo album showcasing Stevie in all her glory. A FM record, on the other hand, is the intermingling of every member, I would like to hear that.

The tension, I'm afraid, is gone. It's there, at a visceral level. No one is allowing others "under the skin" anymore. Saddens me to think those days have passed.

[bombaysaffires]

I'm hoping Dave has NOTHING to do with anything FM related. That album would sound like a few Solo Stevie songs sprinkled with Lindsey and Chris. Dave has a very simple way of arranging Stevie's demos, which are fine for a solo album showcasing Stevie in all her glory. A FM record, on the other hand, is the intermingling of every member, I would like to hear that.

The tension, I'm afraid, is gone. It's there, at a visceral level. No one is allowing others "under the skin" anymore. Saddens me to think those days have passed.

People outgrow each other; they grow in different directions. That happened with the Mac a loooong time ago.

Everything since has been an attempt to recapture that lightning in a bottle which of course is just not possible. "his plan for her was just not possible/she was so not that girl"

But you know, when there's all that money on the table… I for one have been surprised that Lindsey has gone along for the last couple of nostalgia tours. I would have expected more of a fuss from him.. that is everything he's always said he wouldn't want to do.

Again…. money talks. Tuition bills roll in. Wife opens a business. Suddenly a nostalgia tour can be rationalized.

I sooooo hope Chris coming back can truly breathe some new life into this franchise, but honestly….. I have doubts. Cautiously optimistic.

[Macfanforever]

Anybody could be creative if they put their mind to it at any age.
They just have to get into the mood for it.

[LB Freakazoid]

Wow... I'm kinda surprised at what's been said here...

Stevie is rather consistant - she has always said that she brings everything she writes to FM - if they reject it, it's hers.... hence all the demos we're getting on this new album.....

She has ALWAYS said that FM is her first priority. Yes, Christine coming back has thrown a huge kink in the plans that may have been set... However, the band now has to alter them.
Stevie had previous commitments for another album - prior to Chris's decision... Contractully, she had to do her album - and what better time than to do it with all the publicity of the FM reunion? She's gotta get it out of the way to clear the time for this huge thing that's called "Fleetwood Mac" The last hoorah!

....and with LB and CM in the studio at the same time as recording in Nashville, wouldn't make sense that there would be discussions about what songs FM wanted? Regardless of whatever influences, Stevie's loyalties always remains with FM, especialty with Christine there. Say what you will, that has always been a constant. And, for her NOT to be a part of any "new" music would seem completely out of character at this stage. (And don't beat me with the TITN times - coming out of rehab does not compare to where she is now) i kinda think this was a HUGE conflict within herself - however, the rest of the band understood and they are making the best out of what they have to deal with...

Timing, I'm sure, was NOT what the rest of FM may have wanted... However, I'm kinda of thinking that they are happy CM is back. And being an LB fan, I'm thinking his brain is is humming with music.....

[StreetAngel86]

ha, i forgot about Twisted when talking about creativity together! i guess that may be the more recent example. i love Stevie/Lindsey version of Twisted, while Stevie solo one i found boring.

although, not sure i understand how the possible success of yet another Stevie's solo version of Twisted, without LB's involvement, would make any tensions between them in FM creative?

are we SURE he's not involved?
wasn't he doing something on one of her songs? for this record?
though why they'd redo Twisted makes no sense for me

Dave/Stevie/Lindsey all working together makes me laugh :laugh:

[MoonSister75]

Wow... I'm kinda surprised at what's been said here...



Me too. :shocked: Is anyone really trying to suggest that Stevie's heart isn't with Fleetwood Mac?! She loves those guys! (even with the tensions) and she loves the adoration from the FM fans :D

[He's So Unusual]

so where is that supposed creative tension in the last 30+ years and is it really still healthy or helpful? Stevie has been pretty adamant that she doesn't need or like tension in order to create anymore, while describing how great making of IYD was since there was no tension between her and her collaborators.

meanwhile, FM album has been on hold since 2010. it was started and aborted in 2012, and then again worked on in 2014 with the addition of Christine, and is now again on back burner waiting. so how is the tension creative?? no new album for 10+ years doesn't seem very creative to me. :shrug:

But she sure loves talking about it. Personally, I'm bored rigid of hearing about the tension in Fleetwood Mac, new and old. They need to put up or shut up. Release a new album or shelve it and finally call it quits after the current tour, just don't drag the whole thing out to make yet another soap opera. It's been 11 years since Say You Will, the band have had enough time and opportunity to make another Fleetwood Mac album in the last 10 years, several in fact, they just couldn't get over their bullsh!t and do it, the band was simply left to stagnate for a good decade. Lindsey Buckingham released a few solo albums between 2006 and 2012 but there were still gaps when the group could have come back together to record new music. And it's not like Stevie was busy in the studio between 2001 and 2011, she spent most of the time touring the same set list year in and year out. The band needs to make the most of this current resurgence in their music by riding the wave instead of wasting it like they did The Dance by waiting so long to record another album.

The band focuses far too much on the past when they really need to concentrate on the present. Surely they're all old enough to put aside their differences in order to make another stellar album to cap off a long and great career? I'm not sure if I'm alone in thinking this, but I think a lot of the so-called tension is merely a show nowadays that's put on because of a select few in their fan base who strive for the drama on and off stage.

[jkmaletic]

looking at pretty amazing charting (and trending on FB, she's almost unavoidable all of the sudden!) of SN's upcoming album preorders, i asked in one of the other threads whether if hugely successful she might be tempted to go exclusively solo.

this response in particular i found thought-provoking:


do we really think their tension is still creative at this point? or has any lingering "tension" become more arresting to any creative growth FM might still have?


right now, with numerous oldies tours and without an album in the last decade, FM seems to be just the means of capitalizing on their past glories and grabbing tons of money for its members... not the creative outlet. can it be that the last instance of creative tension in FM was actually in the early 80s, during Mirage era? Tango was mostly created by Christine and Lindsey with very little participation from Stevie, and Christine and Lindsey seem to complement each other ending in more of a creative synergy than tension, and their recent interviews seem to attest to that synergy being still strong and highly creative.

the last album rumours-era FM released was SYW, and various fans (and SN herself, i believe?) have argued not only that the tension was not healthy or creative but that it was instead counter-productive - that Lindsey's songs were better in their original GOS shape without adding Stevie on them, and that Stevie's songs were better as demos, without Lindsey's contributions to them. and then there was their most recent output - EP, on which there was no creative tension considering Stevie was mostly absent from it, and contributed one song from 1974 which has been also argued by fans that is worse on the EP than the original demo.

so where is that supposed creative tension in the last 30+ years and is it really still healthy or helpful? Stevie has been pretty adamant that she doesn't need or like tension in order to create anymore, while describing how great making of IYD was since there was no tension between her and her collaborators.

meanwhile, FM album has been on hold since 2010. it was started and aborted in 2012, and then again worked on in 2014 with the addition of Christine, and is now again on back burner waiting. so how is the tension creative?? no new album for 10+ years doesn't seem very creative to me. :shrug:

Getting back to the original question, I believe that any lingering tension CAN become more arresting to any creative growth they may still have in this band. They're all older now and don't need tension to obtain creativity. I would like to believe most of that tension stuff is in the past. Yeah, Stevie and Lindsey may always have some kind of tension between them, just like anybody would being around any "Ex". But I would think after years and years that sort of tension fades and softens.

However, if Stevie's solo work she's been doing lately creates a NEW tension within the band, to me that would be bad for creativity. Hopefully that's not the case.

Jamie

[SteveMacD]

A contractual obligation is a contractual obligation.

Stevie was apparently contractually obligated to do another solo album. I get that. I also get that the solo album she chose to give the record company is an album full of demos and previously released material that all of her fans already had. That it was the "quickest" she ever recorded an album tells me that she wanted to get it out of the way as soon as humanly possible. Why would she want to do that?

I'm not saying there isn't any tension between Stevie and Lindsey, I'm just saying that Stevie legally had to do this record. I hope there's some tension between those two, the results are usually better that way.

I think Stevie will come in with eight songs of her own, and I wouldn't be surprised if two albums come out of all the of the material they have. If this is Fleetwood Mac's last act (which I don't really want to believe), what a better way to go out than with two records of new material and a few years on the road?

This is the one time I'm not questioning anybody's loyalty. If anything, Stevie's songs will be better if they're recorded after they have some mileage under their belts.

[PenguinHead]

But she sure loves talking about it. Personally, I'm bored rigid of hearing about the tension in Fleetwood Mac, new and old. They need to put up or shut up. Release a new album or shelve it and finally call it quits after the current tour, just don't drag the whole thing out to make yet another soap opera. It's been 11 years since Say You Will, the band have had enough time and opportunity to make another Fleetwood Mac album in the last 10 years, several in fact, they just couldn't get over their bullsh!t and do it, the band was simply left to stagnate for a good decade. Lindsey Buckingham released a few solo albums between 2006 and 2012 but there were still gaps when the group could have come back together to record new music. And it's not like Stevie was busy in the studio between 2001 and 2011, she spent most of the time touring the same set list year in and year out. The band needs to make the most of this current resurgence in their music by riding the wave instead of wasting it like they did The Dance by waiting so long to record another album.

The band focuses far too much on the past when they really need to concentrate on the present. Surely they're all old enough to put aside their differences in order to make another stellar album to cap off a long and great career? I'm not sure if I'm alone in thinking this, but I think a lot of the so-called tension is merely a show nowadays that's put on because of a select few in their fan base who strive for the drama on and off stage.

Love and agree with everything you said! With a keen perspective, you really nailed it down. I normally feel the need to add to the subject, but I'm resisting since anything I say will just be redundant.

[Lee]

I don't know if there are creative differences or not, but when I read somewhere that Stevie wasn't going to be on the album @ all because of her solo album, I was or I am very disappointed. I hope that is wrong & she is on there somewhere. It just won't be same with her.

Lee :distress:

[chiliD]

do we really think their tension is still creative at this point? or has any lingering "tension" become more arresting to any creative growth FM might still have?

"Creative growth" in reference to Fleetwood Mac is long dead.

... and then there was their most recent output - EP, on which there was no creative tension considering Stevie was mostly absent from it, and contributed one song from 1974 which has been also argued by fans that is worse on the EP than the original demo.

Which ALWAYS puzzles me. Stevie fans have always had a major b*tch about the "official" release of songs whose demo versions have long been bootlegged. That's just insane IMO, there's not been one demo of hers that she's later released have I thought the demo was superior to the final released version. Not even CLOSE.

There's only one song (by ANY artist) that I've heard in my lifetime that the demo version was superior to the final released track, the Beach Boys' "Somewhere Near Japan". And, even in that case, it's a close call.

no new album for 10+ years doesn't seem very creative to me. :shrug: AMEN!



Personally, I'm bored rigid of hearing about the tension in Fleetwood Mac, new and old. They need to put up or shut up. Release a new album or shelve it and finally call it quits after the current tour, just don't drag the whole thing out to make yet another soap opera.
Can I get a "hallelujah"?


The band focuses far too much on the past when they really need to concentrate on the present.

For me, they don't even need to concentrate on the present, if they'd just concentrate on something OTHER than Rumours, I'd be ecstatic!!
I long (most likely in vain) that they'll do a "NoRumours" tour.

I don't know if there are creative differences or not, but when I read somewhere that Stevie wasn't going to be on the album @ all because of her solo album, I was or I am very disappointed. I hope that is wrong & she is on there somewhere. It just won't be same with her.


She'll be on the new album...maybe not as a songwriter, but her voice will be and she'll have numerous photos of her in the booklet, if not on the front or back cover.

[moon]

I'm bored to see that there's always tensions on this band. Come on, they're not young now, they can't be all the time discussing for personal/professional things, even when they can express it on the records and make a successful work.
The pictures of Lindsey and Chris working together gave me a little clue. Yes, they're motivated now, and I know Stevie is happy with Christine's return, but she's interested on her solo career too, and she wants to work alone. That can create a new tension between them, even when it's everything ready to show what they did all this time.
It's disappointing for a fan, to know that 11 years after their last studio album, and more than 25 after the last work of the "five", things didn't change at all. Of course Stevie can continue with her solo career, but for what I see, her work with FM was too little, and if there's a new album, we'll see again 2 or 3 songs of SN, and 4 or 5 of CM and LB.
Regards!
Mark.

[michelej1]

Rumours[/I], I'd be ecstatic!!
I long (most likely in vain) that they'll do a "NoRumours" tour.



You know what? This is a great idea. It could be a promotional gimmick in and of itself and they could give all the interviews explaining why they aren't doing any Rumours songs, letting them put a new spin on things.

Also, the band can't be afraid of alienating casual fans because they should know what songs they won't be getting by the tour title! Fair warning. I think this is a great marketing idea.

Michele

[MikeInNV]

You know what? This is a great idea. It could be a promotional gimmick in and of itself and they could give all the interviews explaining why they aren't doing any Rumours songs, letting them put a new spin on things.

Also, the band can't be afraid of alienating casual fans because they should know what songs they won't be getting by the tour title! Fair warning. I think this is a great marketing idea.

Michele

And think how many songs are still available to play for the casaul fans. No one has to go home without hearing Landslide, Rhiannon, or Tusk. There are bands who have had 90% of their most famous material come from one album, but Fleetwood Mac had the good fortune of spreading their hits over several.

[bombaysaffires]

And think how many songs are still available to play for the casaul fans. No one has to go home without hearing Landslide, Rhiannon, or Tusk. There are bands who have had 90% of their most famous material come from one album, but Fleetwood Mac had the good fortune of spreading their hits over several.

it also leaves Big Love, Gypsy, Everywhere, Sara, Sisters of the Moon, I'm So Afraid… amazing how much of the set isn't Rumours and yet they never shut up about it or stop shilling it.
(btw, I'm for cutting many of the above mentioned songs too!!)

[He's So Unusual]

For me, they don't even need to concentrate on the present, if they'd just concentrate on something OTHER than Rumours, I'd be ecstatic!!
I long (most likely in vain) that they'll do a "NoRumours" tour.


Less Rumours would be a good thing.

[teedeerocks]

"Creative growth" in reference to Fleetwood Mac is long dead.



Which ALWAYS puzzles me. Stevie fans have always had a major b*tch about the "official" release of songs whose demo versions have long been bootlegged. That's just insane IMO, there's not been one demo of hers that she's later released have I thought the demo was superior to the final released version. Not even CLOSE.

There's only one song (by ANY artist) that I've heard in my lifetime that the demo version was superior to the final released track, the Beach Boys' "Somewhere Near Japan". And, even in that case, it's a close call.

AMEN!




Can I get a "hallelujah"?




For me, they don't even need to concentrate on the present, if they'd just concentrate on something OTHER than Rumours, I'd be ecstatic!!
I long (most likely in vain) that they'll do a "NoRumours" tour.



She'll be on the new album...maybe not as a songwriter, but her voice will be and she'll have numerous photos of her in the booklet, if not on the front or back cover.

You got that right!I was appalled when I read in Ken Caillat's book that when he told Stevie that his dog Scooter died,she said she was glad it happened because the dog took up an album cover that she should've been on (Tusk).Isn't she supposed to be an animal activist/animal lover?I don't know about that girl sometimes.:shrug::confused::eek:

[pauls90]

""Drama"" aside, I think Lindsey has come to be very inspired this time around. Some quotes of his indicated he's aware many up and coming bands have been nicking the sounds of Mirage and Tango lately (which I took as a hint that he may try to revisit or modernize them for the band - which would be brilliant).

Add that to his working with Empire of the Sun and his genuine excitement and inspiration working with Chris again, this could mean great things creatively.

I think, if anything, Stevie needs to open herself up creatively. I think Lindsey is capable of making her sound inspired and relevant again (at least in some fashion). Dave has nothing interesting or creative to offer her though she insists on working with him.

[Johnny Stew]

Stevie fans have always had a major b*tch about the "official" release of songs whose demo versions have long been bootlegged.

Not all of Stevie's fans! 9 times out of 10, I prefer the officially released versions.

[PenguinHead]

I don't know if there are creative differences or not, but when I read somewhere that Stevie wasn't going to be on the album @ all because of her solo album, I was or I am very disappointed. I hope that is wrong & she is on there somewhere. It just won't be same with her.

Lee :distress:

Where did you hear this? Was this some one close to the band or just an anonymous random quote? Stevie has too much ego not to be part of the album.

I can't see them ever making a Lindsey/Christine album sans Stevie. No one really knows what is going on. It's all speculation and rumours on our part.

[PenguinHead]

You know what? This is a great idea. It could be a promotional gimmick in and of itself and they could give all the interviews explaining why they aren't doing any Rumours songs, letting them put a new spin on things.

Also, the band can't be afraid of alienating casual fans because they should know what songs they won't be getting by the tour title! Fair warning. I think this is a great marketing idea.

Michele

That would be great - THE NO RUMOURS TOUR or NO MORE RUMOURS TOUR.
It would free them up to create a set list of rarely performed or never performed before; old songs yet a fresh perspective, taking stock of their lesser known songs. If they did something like this, it would get a huge amount of attention and the world press would go wild.

[DESTINYRU!ES]

At this point I agree with lots of others posts. Rumours needs to just fall into place within the catalogue and not be a reference point to the Big Bang of amazement. I think lindsey is changing his assemblage point on his creative spark uniting the band toward there last work that stands the test of time. He wants the legacy of their best artist within to shine through. Like here it is I know you best and this is what you have become. Still it requires Trust and allowing to be receptive and molded. With chris it was easy with other artists it was easy. Working with other artists and younger too brought some needed perspective. Lindsey does bring forward the best of Stevie and in the context of fleetwood Mac representing the efforts of buckingham nicks he will always have a need to provide that for her, it's like part of his husbandness toward her. It all goes back to can stevie let the walls fall down and let him lead her? Often she is knowing best and wanting to prove herself. And on Lindsey's end he does listen to her points and if they evolve the process he uses it to feed the creative energy. Still it comes down to she needs to let him provide. If that happens then there would be less sexual tension as well. There is a need. Dave was also needed he broke down some of those barriers of she knows best. Now if she can just forgive herself for letting Lindsey go and not making the creative process a personal attack then all will be well. They should start by sitting down at the piano and letting themselves create some kind of melody together. Strive to let stevie create some fabric of sound and then let lindsey see that forward. Also Steive needs to be told and probably by lindsey this is your range now you have to move emotion through it. It's what you always had translating emotional content. Her voice is distinct and was once varied now it has strength to carry wisdom of emotion. I think twisted will be a good review of what I have assessed. New version might sound good production wise and more modern but the feeling I get when I listen to those words, that s it. Stevie will see that what she said about her own words needing to come back to her and she feels it. Lindsey has and always will do that easily and effortlessly. It's called love. If she pushes him away he doesn't create with it.