Do we really want a new Fleetwood Mac album?

[michelej1]

I'm very excited about the possibility of a new album, but I don't want a copy/paste album where they each take tracks rejected for a solo album and piece them together expecting a producer to make them sound unified.

And in Temporary One's defense, the cutting and pasting started back then. Christine already had that song. I believe she must have written it for FM, because I don't think she was planning a solo album at that time, but on the Best Buy cd she said she had about 50 songs that she wasn't doing anything with and that's not something I like to hear. I don't want to hear about the songs in the cupboard, dusted off for an FM collaboration.

Michele

[SteveMacD]

I'm very excited about the possibility of a new album, but I don't want a copy/paste album where they each take tracks rejected for a solo album and piece them together expecting a producer to make them sound unified. I want a Fleetwood Mac album - not a Lindsey & Stevie solo album under the Fleetwood Mac name, guest staring Christine.
The only one who we have to worry about in that regard is Stevie. Lindsey wrote eight songs, three of which were on EP, with the intention of them being on a Fleetwood Mac album, and apparently so has Christine.

[Ulpian]

I don't think Meantime was a great album by any means. I do think it had some great moments.

Furthermore, Christine has always been capable of really weak songs. I think most of her Tusk entries prove that. And I agree that Temporary One is tepid. I thought both Sweet Girl and Temporary One were dreck.

But if Christine contributes 6 new songs, I'm pretty confident that 3 will be stellar, at least. Three more stellar songs from her will be more than welcomed by me.

Michele

I absolutely agree about Christine's Tusk songs, and her and Stevie's contributions to The Dance. I'd throw My Little Demon in that pot too...

[SteveMacD]

Furthermore, Christine has always been capable of really weak songs.
I think all of Fleetwood Mac's songwriters have given us a few clunkers over the years.

I think most of her Tusk entries prove that. And I agree that Temporary One is tepid. I thought both Sweet Girl and Temporary One were dreck.
I disagree with this entirely. Christine's "Tusk" songs, as well as "Temporary One" and "Sweet Girl" are some of my favorites.

Now, if you had said "Mirage" instead of "Tusk," then I'd agree.

[SteveMacD]

I think maybe some of us are putting too much hope in Christine's return to the band to elevate song quality, should they record an album.
Not necessarily. I'm just happy that there will be some balance, that Fleetwood Mac won't be all about the Stevie-Lindsey thing.

[sue]

The only one who we have to worry about in that regard is Stevie. Lindsey wrote eight songs, three of which were on EP, with the intention of them being on a Fleetwood Mac album, and apparently so has Christine.

I agree , I think Stevie is the problem...is she capable of bringing 4 or 5 decent tunes to the mix ? I think not ,especially when you consider her contribution to The EP.
Sue

[michelej1]

Now, if you had said "Mirage" instead of "Tusk," then I'd agree.

I like all of her Mirage songs, with Hold Me being a Fleetwood Mac pinnacle.

On Tusk, I love Think About Me and like 2 others. The rest are a sleeping pill.

Michele

[michelej1]

I think all of Fleetwood Mac's songwriters have given us a few clunkers over the years.


I wouldn't know. I was addressing the idea that Christine will be a savior. There's no reason to think she will come in and improve the quality of anything with her songwriting.

I didn't want her back because she's such a great songwriter. People can sit out an album as far as their songs go. They have other contributions to make to the group as a whole even if they have several insipid songs on an album.

Temporary One was a pretty lifeless song (though I've used the lyrics for my own devices), but it hardly marred the beauty of the Dance tour. It's immaterial whether she has great songs or not for the next album. We need all 5 of them, their personal clunkers and all.

Michele

[Mr Scarrott]

Listening to Christine's six Tusk songs one after another would not be a great experience, but placed where they are are on the album, they kind of make sense to me. The opening Over and Over and closing Never Forget perfectly bookend the madness contained within, whilst other sublime surprises buried more obscurely (I'm thinking the magical Brown Eyes mainly here) give the album a balance that would otherwise be lacking.

[jbrownsjr]

And in Temporary One's defense, the cutting and pasting started back then. Christine already had that song. I believe she must have written it for FM, because I don't think she was planning a solo album at that time, but on the Best Buy cd she said she had about 50 songs that she wasn't doing anything with and that's not something I like to hear. I don't want to hear about the songs in the cupboard, dusted off for an FM collaboration.

Michele

I remember her saying that she submitted 3 or so to the band, and they liked Temp One the best.

[Ulpian]

I remember her saying that she submitted 3 or so to the band, and they liked Temp One the best.

I think 'Easy Come, Easy Go' from ITM was one of them.

[jbrownsjr]

Listening to Christine's six Tusk songs one after another would not be a great experience, but placed where they are are on the album, they kind of make sense to me. The opening Over and Over and closing Never Forget perfectly bookend the madness contained within, whilst other sublime surprises buried more obscurely (I'm thinking the magical Brown Eyes mainly here) give the album a balance that would otherwise be lacking.

Such an amazing point. I don't think B/N would have made it big without Christine's contributions. There's just a magic to the 5 of these people.

[KarmaContestant]

The only one who we have to worry about in that regard is Stevie. Lindsey wrote eight songs, three of which were on EP, with the intention of them being on a Fleetwood Mac album, and apparently so has Christine.

Exactly...I love Stevie's music dearly, but I want her to be involved in this album - not just mailing demos to be fleshed out while she plays dress up with Sharon and Sulamith, on vacation.

I don't even mind if Stevie brings old lyrics and demos, so long as she is part of the process of building those demos into fully realized songs instead of expecting Lindsey, John, Chris and Mick to do all of the work, only to have her complain later that she was unhappy with the results. She does have hundreds of demos from years past, and there's no denying that many of her unused demos are stellar examples of her best songwriting.

[chiliD]

Exactly...I love Stevie's music dearly, but I want her to be involved in this album - not just mailing demos to be fleshed out while she plays dress up with Sharon and Sulamith, on vacation.

Agreed

I don't even mind if Stevie brings old lyrics and demos, so long as she is part of the process of building those demos into fully realized songs instead of expecting Lindsey, John, Chris and Mick to do all of the work, only to have her complain later that she was unhappy with the results.

Again, agreed.

She does have hundreds of demos from years past, and there's no denying that many of her unused demos are stellar examples of her best songwriting.

Don't agree. If they were so good, why are they still unfinished & unreleased?
Will admit SOME are good, but not great...and at this point, for what would most likely be the band's swan song, they'd have to be BETTER THAN GREAT.

[michelej1]

Listening to Christine's six Tusk songs one after another would not be a great experience, but placed where they are are on the album, they kind of make sense to me. The opening Over and Over and closing Never Forget perfectly bookend the madness contained within, whilst other sublime surprises buried more obscurely (I'm thinking the magical Brown Eyes mainly here) give the album a balance that would otherwise be lacking.

I can see what you mean when I apply that logic to Mirage. I'm not sure how I feel about Only Over You and Wish You Were Here on their own. But I had that album on vinyl, back in the day when I still had to stand up and go flip the LP on my turntable to hear the other side (where did I find the strength??)

Those two ballads each made such beautiful closing songs on their respective sides of the album that I'm sure the placement increased my admiration for them exponentially.

Lindsey has said that it was Christine's song following his that made people cry upon hearing Rumours. It was the combination
of messages.

The placement and combination of the songwriters' material. Their conjunction is what makes the magic. Now, I don't think that's true on Tusk, but I do think it's true of FM, of life, in general.

Michele

[MikeInNV]

Exactly...I love Stevie's music dearly, but I want her to be involved in this album - not just mailing demos to be fleshed out while she plays dress up with Sharon and Sulamith, on vacation.

I don't even mind if Stevie brings old lyrics and demos, so long as she is part of the process of building those demos into fully realized songs instead of expecting Lindsey, John, Chris and Mick to do all of the work, only to have her complain later that she was unhappy with the results. She does have hundreds of demos from years past, and there's no denying that many of her unused demos are stellar examples of her best songwriting.

I don't think she's likely to do that if they get to recording right away. In the past, it has happened out of necessity when the band began recording a new album while she was on tour promoting a solo album (Mirage, Tango, and SYW all happened this way). If they put recording on their collective calendars now, they can all be present and involved. And I think Stevie very much wants to be involved in the crafting of her own songs. For me, that was one of the takeaways from the IYD documentary; she has very specific ideas about how her music should sound.

[aleuzzi]

I haven't heard an argument yet that makes me anything less than thrilled at the prospect of a new album with at least twelve songs. I was thrilled to get Say You Will, too. Even with the few clunkers.

The EP bothered me. I didn't think it was substantial enough after all these years.

If you're going to keep going as a band, that means new material, not just greatest hits rehash for the tours.

[elle]

I don't think she's likely to do that if they get to recording right away. In the past, it has happened out of necessity when the band began recording a new album while she was on tour promoting a solo album (Mirage, Tango, and SYW all happened this way). If they put recording on their collective calendars now, they can all be present and involved.

that now was at the beginning of 2012. two years later, now, she and all of them should already have it on their calendars. i would hope.

[elle]

I haven't heard an argument yet that makes me anything less than thrilled at the prospect of a new album with at least twelve songs. I was thrilled to get Say You Will, too. Even with the few clunkers.

The EP bothered me. I didn't think it was substantial enough after all these years.

If you're going to keep going as a band, that means new material, not just greatest hits rehash for the tours.

yes. and seems most of FM members and especially LB agrees with you. it's the difference between being a nostalgia act or still having some relevance as a recording artist.

although i was on the first listen annoyed by formulaic approach to 2 of 3 LB's songs on the EP, i was always nothing but ecstatic to get new music from them, whether as an EP, download of a couple of tunes, or whatever they wanted to give me.

if the choice was EP or no EP, my choice would have definitely be EP. seems most people here the choice would be no EP. i just don't get that. :shrug:

[HomerMcvie]

So you haven't heard the EP?

I have not. My fellow (former) Ledgies that I go to FM shows with(and are HUGE Stevie fans), told me it was crap, and not to bother.

When DIE HARDS are saying that it sucks...I take their word for it!:lol:

[elle]

I have not. My fellow (former) Ledgies that I go to FM shows with(and are HUGE Stevie fans), told me it was crap, and not to bother.

When DIE HARDS are saying that it sucks...I take their word for it!:lol:

:lol::lol:

a few holes in that logic don't ya think? ;) :wavey:

i can see you, as a CM fan first and foremost, not having any interest in the product made without her.

i can also see huge SN dieahrds not liking it since SN barely contributed anything. if you want to hear you favorite performer and he/she is [almost] nowhere to be found, chances are you will be unhappy.

but that doesn't really say much if anything about the quality of the EP. :shrug:

[HomerMcvie]

:lol::lol:

a few holes in that logic don't ya think? ;) :wavey:

i can see you, as a CM fan first and foremost, not having any interest in the product made without her.

i can also see huge SN dieahrds not liking it since SN barely contributed anything. if you want to hear you favorite performer and he/she is [almost] nowhere to be found, chances are you will be unhappy.

but that doesn't really say much if anything about the quality of the EP. :shrug:

Perhaps. But they are big Lindsey fans as well, and told me not to bother with it.

[vivfox]

Perhaps. But they are big Lindsey fans as well, and told me not to bother with it.

I would think you'd want to form your own opinion. You don't even have to buy it to hear it. Miss Fantasy is a fantastic song.:thumbsup:

[mylittledemon]

Perhaps. But they are big Lindsey fans as well, and told me not to bother with it.

^Wouldn't you at least like to listen to it to make up your own mind?

Anyway... has there been any indication from the band members as to what the intent will be with Chris back? Are they going to rehearse first, then tour... or rehearse and then make a record or...? Is any of that stuff floating around yet?

[KarmaContestant]

Don't agree. If they were so good, why are they still unfinished & unreleased?


Because Stevie doesn't take control of her own material. Julia - left off Bella Donna and Wild Heart because "Jimmy didn't like it". Planets of the Universe - never used by Fleetwood Mac because "Lindsey didn't know what to do with it". Smile At You, never used when it was great because Lindsey "thought it was too angry".

Just who's songs are these, anyway?

I'm certain there are dozens, potentially hundreds, of songs that someone else didn't like or didn't understand, and Stevie, being somewhat passive when it comes to men, allowed them to make choices that were not the right choices. Look at the crap that she let Rupert Hine choose for The Other Side of the Mirror. She's made it very clear that she let *him* choose the songs that went on that album.

I mean - off the top of my head - Starshine, Sanctuary, Forsaken Love, All The Beautiful Worlds, The Dealer, Rich Old Lady/Mystical Love, Forest of the Black Roses, All The King's Horses, Chanel Chanel, Belle Flower, Castaway, She Loves Him Still, Jimmy Come Back, Watchdevil, Space Needle, Have No Heart, 24 Karat Gold - I think these are all great demos, and they're just the ones I thought of spur of the moment. Yes...there are terrible demos, but for every bad demo there are three or four great ones just begging to be used and likely much, much more that we've never heard of.

Stevie sat on Candlebright, Sorcerer, Planets, Think About It, Lady From The Mountain, Gypsy, If You Ever Did Believe, Beauty and the Beast, and many more for years waiting for the right moment. To believe that every good demo has been recorded is to not really look at her history and her catalog.

[HomerMcvie]

I would think you'd want to form your own opinion. You don't even have to buy it to hear it. Miss Fantasy is a fantastic song.:thumbsup:

I think the days of me being a mega fan have sailed....:lol:

I mean, they're still the most important artists of my life, but I think I'll just pretend that it's FM 1982, and live there!

[elle]

Perhaps. But they are big Lindsey fans as well, and told me not to bother with it.

personally, i like to form my own opinions, especially about the new stuff being put out by the group i like.

from what i've seen around here, some Lindsey fans like some or most songs on the EP. some love, like or dislike one song or another, others don't like uneven production or mixing. others don't like the FM-iness of SA or MF. some find guilty pleasure in listening to MF. others are intrigued by ITT.

BN fans seem to like WY. :)

SN fans dislike there are no new SN contributions.

the most unified, group think kind of opinion, that the EP sucks seems to be coming from people who have never heard it, or heard it once. :lol: :rolleyes: so you might be right, if that's where most *diehard* FM fans stand these days, maybe they should not listen to whatever new CD FM decides to put out either. :shrug:

[elle]

I would think you'd want to form your own opinion. You don't even have to buy it to hear it. Miss Fantasy is a fantastic song.:thumbsup:

^Wouldn't you at least like to listen to it to make up your own mind?

:nod: :thumbsup:

[KarmaContestant]

the most unified, group think kind of opinion, that the EP sucks seems to be coming from people who have never heard it, or heard it once. :lol: :rolleyes: so you might be right, if that's where most *diehard* FM fans stand these days, maybe they should not listen to whatever new CD FM decides to put out either. :shrug:

I don't dislike it...but I've listened to it a couple of times and nothing grabbed me. Even the song I was most looking forward to - Without You - just made me go 'meh'. However, It Takes Time is a stellar track, I'll admit.

I would have listened to it more if it had a lossless CD release.

[Lindsfan]

i can also see huge SN dieahrds not liking it since SN barely contributed anything. if you want to hear you favorite performer and he/she is [almost] nowhere to be found, chances are you will be unhappy.

but that doesn't really say much if anything about the quality of the EP. :shrug:

Perhaps. But they are big Lindsey fans as well, and told me not to bother with it.

I'm surprised at that, HomerMcvie. I would have thought you to be the type to want to hear it for yourself, and form your own opinion. It's funny how people just read a review or two and make a decision on something. Not just with music, but with travel, or anything else they're looking to purchase. Something expensive, like a cruise, or a new car, I can see paying attention to the negative reviews, but something like an ep from a band that I like, I would definitely want to hear it for myself, and make my own decision. Especially from a band like FM, where half the reviews aren't even based on the music :eek::shrug: You go into iTunes and someone gives it one star because Stevie wasn't on it. What a thoughtful review!

I like the EP. It could have been better if the whole band had been on board, but Lindsey wanted something new to give to the fans, rather than repeating the hits tour. He was kind of damned if he did, damned if he didn't. Without the whole band involved, I would rather have had Lindsey being more Lindsey, rather than trying to be FM friendly, and that's my main complaint. But, the music is catchy, and I enjoy it, and I'm glad he made the effort.

[elle]

I don't dislike it...but I've listened to it a couple of times and nothing grabbed me. Even the song I was most looking forward to - Without You - just made me go 'meh'. However, It Takes Time is a stellar track, I'll admit.

why *admit*? :confused:

my personal opinion on It Takes Time is divided. while i think it's pretty, it sounds not fully baked to me, and i really dislike the strings in it. others love those strings.

btw, This is 40 songs that some around here rave about also sound not completely thought through to me, just in a different way from ITT. and i love She Acts Like You. :shrug:

[RockawayBlind]

:lol::lol:

a few holes in that logic don't ya think? ;) :wavey:

i can see you, as a CM fan first and foremost, not having any interest in the product made without her.

i can also see huge SN dieahrds not liking it since SN barely contributed anything. if you want to hear you favorite performer and he/she is [almost] nowhere to be found, chances are you will be unhappy.

but that doesn't really say much if anything about the quality of the EP. :shrug:

Lindsey is my favorite, and I think it's crap.

[elle]

Lindsey is my favorite, and I think it's crap.
i know you do. but you listened to it first, right?

[KarmaContestant]

why *admit*? :confused:

:laugh: I guess that does sound derogatory in a way I hadn't intended.

What I meant to convey is that I like It Takes Time, a lot. The other three tracks aren't fitting my tastes at the moment, though in the future they may because none of them are inherently bad songs.

my personal opinion on It Takes Time is divided. while i think it's pretty, it sounds not fully baked to me, and i really dislike the strings in it. others love those strings.

If by 'not fully baked' you mean that it sounds sparse or bare, even unfinished; I agree. I do enjoy that style of song though...where the individual parts of the song (vocals, instruments, notes, melody) each sound lonely, even though they are together. And I love those strings!

[elle]

It could have been better if the whole band had been on board, but Lindsey wanted something new to give to the fans, rather than repeating the hits tour. He was kind of damned if he did, damned if he didn't. Without the whole band involved, I would rather have had Lindsey being more Lindsey, rather than trying to be FM friendly, and that's my main complaint. But, the music is catchy, and I enjoy it, and I'm glad he made the effort.
:thumbsup: to all of that.

If by 'not fully baked' you mean that it sounds sparse or bare, even unfinished; I agree. I do enjoy that style of song though...where the individual parts of the song (vocals, instruments, notes, melody) each sound lonely, even though they are together. And I love those strings!
yeah. i like the way you worded that! :)

[michelej1]

btw, This is 40 songs that some around here rave about

I dislike them.

Michele

[Lindsfan]

I dislike them.

Michele

I love his songs on TI40 :) Like Elle said, even amongst Lindsey's fans, there are different likes and dislikes, loves and, as Rockaway put it, stuff we think is crap :wavey: Which is why I would never dismiss an album or ep as being bad, until I heard it for myself.

[michelej1]

I love his songs on TI40 :) Like Elle said, even amongst Lindsey's fans, there are different likes and dislikes, loves and, as Rockaway put it, stuff we think is crap :wavey: Which is why I would never dismiss an album or ep as being bad, until I heard it for myself.

I'd dismiss an album or EP as being bad without hearing it for myself, if I was disinclined to dislike it anyway. Sometimes people don't WANT to like things. I tend to listen to FM things over and over again, even if they stink though.

Anyway, since it sounds like that This is 40 stuff was spun out in 10 minutes, I am somewhat confident that none of the FM songs will sound like that. Fingers crossed.

Michele

[elle]

I'd dismiss an album or EP as being bad without hearing it for myself, if I was disinclined to dislike it anyway. Sometimes people don't WANT to like things. I tend to listen to FM things over and over again, even if they stink though.

i'm thinking you have one too many dis- in that sentence?

agree about people many times deciding against or for some things upfront.

[SteveMacD]

EP was okay. Not great, not awful, not groundbreaking (though I think that was kind of the point). It's just kind of there.

I think "Sad Angel" is a good enough song that sounds like it could've gone on SYW. I was never a big fan of "Without You," and this just sounded like a modern version of that song. I could take or leave "It Takes Time," namely because Lindsey singing a piano song really seems cheesy, especially when he could've done something amazing on the acoustic.

"Miss Fantasy" is the one song I'd like to hear them remake with Christine. I think they could replace the acoustic rhythm guitar with a piano. It would also benefit from organ or synth and fingerstyle guitar on the choruses and the bridge. Of course, they need to get Christine's voice in the mix.

[michelej1]

i'm thinking you have one too many dis- in that sentence?



Yes, I meant inclined to dislike. I'm just waiting for this tour. Why will people say they aren't going to see it this time? I guess they will still say it's because of the setlist, even if a fifth person is there they'll say, "I'm not going just to hear the same setlist I heard back in 1942."

My Grandma used to say that to me about I Love Lucy. She'd say she's not watching because she saw the episode when it first aired. Fifty years earlier. I doubt she was watching that closely the first time anyway.

Michele

[gssmith]

I liked the EP even though Stevie didn't contribute much except lovely back g vocals and a song that wasn't recorded for good reason. I think Stevie has plenty of songs but didn't want to contribute. I remember her saying something about no more FWM albums unless Chis is there. I'm sure she will be more active in the studio since she doesn't have obligations else where. At least I hope, then she can't have anything to bitch about.

We don't have a clue what the album will sound like. I agree that SWY/In the mean time would have been great if you took the 4 best songs from each of the three.

I'm not Lindsey's biggest fan, but I love SA and MF from EP. I like him best as a safe rocker, not too weirded out, for me Tusk was good because of the ladies. I really liked how SYW had weird songs for people who like that and mainstream stuff too. I think the knew album will have some of that kind of compromise, at least it should.
We should all expect an average album: 3 songs just as amazing as any thing they've ever done, 3-5 average fillers, and 3-5 skippers. Let's be realistic, most albums in general are like that. FWM included, even with three different writers. One of the problems about being a huge fan, we expect perfection always.

[vivfox]

I liked the EP even though Stevie didn't contribute much except she will be more active in the studio since she doesn't have obligations else where. At least I hope, then she can't have anything to bitch about.


We should all expect an average album: 3 songs just as amazing as any thing they've ever done, 3-5 average fillers, and 3-5 skippers. Let's be realistic, most albums in general are like that. FWM included, even with three different writers. One of the problems about being a huge fan, we expect perfection always.

Stevie always finds something to complain about.

[HomerMcvie]

I'm surprised at that, HomerMcvie. I would have thought you to be the type to want to hear it for yourself, and form your own opinion. It's funny how people just read a review or two and make a decision on something. Not just with music, but with travel, or anything else they're looking to purchase. Something expensive, like a cruise, or a new car, I can see paying attention to the negative reviews, but something like an ep from a band that I like, I would definitely want to hear it for myself, and make my own decision. Especially from a band like FM, where half the reviews aren't even based on the music :eek::shrug: You go into iTunes and someone gives it one star because Stevie wasn't on it. What a thoughtful review!

I like the EP. It could have been better if the whole band had been on board, but Lindsey wanted something new to give to the fans, rather than repeating the hits tour. He was kind of damned if he did, damned if he didn't. Without the whole band involved, I would rather have had Lindsey being more Lindsey, rather than trying to be FM friendly, and that's my main complaint. But, the music is catchy, and I enjoy it, and I'm glad he made the effort.
That is a more than fair sentiment. Wasn't it digital DL only? Hell, I don't even know. I've never seen a physical copy in stores. Not that I, nor the masses, even look for now.... Sorry. But if Chris comes back for an album, I'll beat ur Mama out of the way, to get mah copy!:lol:

[iamnotafraid]

I just want an album that I can play guitar to.

[singertobe]

Yes we do because Stevie has a lot of songs that we know she's dying to release:)

[jbrownsjr]

Yes we do because Stevie has a lot of songs that we know she's dying to release:)

Hopefully she's writing new tunes as well.

[secondhandchain]

I can bet Christine coming back in the band and writing new songs has put a fire under her ass. She's got stuff to write about as well. Her mother, Chris's return.

[cliffdweller]

I still think they should go in with songideas and record an album with
Jack White as a producer with a deadline of 4 months. He can do that.

Lol! As much as I would love to see this pairing, I don't think Jack White would be interested in babysitting this group of spoiled rock stars. He'd probably strangle them all! :lol::p

[michelej1]

Lol! As much as I would love to see this pairing, I don't think Jack White would be interested in babysitting this group of spoiled rock stars. He'd probably strangle them all! :lol::p

I'm in accord. I think Jack White would be good for Lindsey and Christine's solo work. Even Stevie and if he worked with her, I'd like him to play up her country elements.

I don't see him with FM really, though.

Michele

[Christopher]

Stevie has written new songs, she dropped bits & pieces about recent songwriting during her Q&A's throughout late 2012-2013 at select IYD documentary screenings. She mentioned one called "Mothers Rings" and a couple others which had been sent off to Dave Stewart. She just didn't want to hand them over to FM, unless she could be convinced that they would be produced objectively. Hence her trepidation about recording any new FM record with just Lindsey unless certain conditions (producers, etc.) were agreed upon.

And besides all that, I believe Stevie still has a fire inside her, something to prove, especially within Fleetwood Mac, Not only did she up her game with what arguably could be her most consistent & well constructed record - "In Your Dreams." This candid reveal she made in a interview (circa 2007-2009) is most telling, that during her Klonopin era, in her opinion, she didn't write anything "memorable." So Stevie is well aware she wasn't at her best during "Tango" juxtaposed with providing FM with some of her best material ever for SYW, and being unhappy with the creative outcome. Stevie will show up, standing tall, if there is any FM record with Christine to be made.

As far as her older material goes, Stevie has always contributed something new/alongside something old from "the vault" to practically every release. Of which many are great compositions, not just cast-offs from previous releases as Karma Contestant already posted. Many fans would love to see more than a few of these gems released if the production and tone fit the project.

[Matt Lucas]

Hello all---

I've read in various places that he DOESN'T use the Turner Model 1 all that much in the studio (He used a National Reso-Lectric quite a bit on the SYW album). For the acoustic based tunes he seems to use the Turner Renaissance guitars more in the studio, but also Martins & Taylors.

I was mainly talking about the electric parts, but thanks for setting me straight on the Turner use in the studio. If you’ve got links to interviews since SYW where he talks about using other electric guitars, please share them. I'm genuinely interested. I honestly didn’t think he used anything but the Turners for 90+ percent of the electric parts in the studio for most of his recordings over the last 20 years.

For me, part of the reason for wanting him to play other guitars is that different instruments seem to bring out different aspects of a guitarist’s style. Lindsey’s solos from the mid-‘70s sound different than his ones from the last 15 years, and I can’t help thinking that having the Les Paul in his hands influenced that in some way.

As far as her older material goes, Stevie has always contributed something new/alongside something old from "the vault" to practically every release. Of which many are great compositions, not just cast-offs from previous releases as Karma Contestant already posted. Many fans would love to see more than a few of these gems released if the production and tone fit the project.

Ideally, I’d love to hear new material. But I also have no problem with any of them bringing in older unreleased material…as long as it’s good. Because Fleetwood Mac can take a good song and make it great.

Stevie has written new songs, she dropped bits & pieces about recent songwriting during her Q&A's throughout late 2012-2013 at select IYD documentary screenings. She mentioned one called "Mothers Rings" and a couple others which had been sent off to Dave Stewart. She just didn't want to hand them over to FM, unless she could be convinced that they would be produced objectively. Hence her trepidation about recording any new FM record with just Lindsey unless certain conditions (producers, etc.) were agreed upon.

And besides all that, I believe Stevie still has a fire inside her, something to prove, especially within Fleetwood Mac, Not only did she up her game with what arguably could be her most consistent & well constructed record - "In Your Dreams." This candid reveal she made in a interview (circa 2007-2009) is most telling, that during her Klonopin era, in her opinion, she didn't write anything "memorable." So Stevie is well aware she wasn't at her best during "Tango" juxtaposed with providing FM with some of her best material ever for SYW, and being unhappy with the creative outcome. Stevie will show up, standing tall, if there is any FM record with Christine to be made.

I appreciate you sharing those comments. I have not seen IN YOUR DREAMS, so I wasn’t aware that Stevie was so candid about the past. That gives me a lot of hope that she will bring some great songs to the table. And honestly, I don’t even care if she gets Dave to help her write them. Lindsey and Christine have brought in songs that were co-written by non-FM folks. But I hope Dave’s involvement ends there. He’s just not a great producer, and he’s certainly not the producer they deserve or need.

I have to admit that I dislike Jack White. I respect what he does, and he seems to have a rock ‘n roller’s heart, but he’s also arrogant and not nearly as good of a songwriter or singer as he seems to think he is. But I’ll take him over Dave Stewart any day as a producer.

It kinda cracks me up that some of the same people who complain about Lindsey’s production style---particularly the way he often slaps a lot of effects on vocals---are also saying that the THIS IS 40 songs sound unfinished. The thing I like most about those recordings is that they sound so intimate…it’s the best Lindsey’s voice has sounded in years. I pulled out the last few studio solo albums and also listened to some of his old stuff, and as much of a fan as I am, I think he ruined some very good songs with poor production on his vocals. “Cast Away Dreams” is a recent example.

Now, in the case of the THIS IS 40 songs, I like them all, but I think they sound undercooked from a songwriting point of view. For instance, “She Acts Like You” is a very good song…till it gets to the bridge section. Instead of going in a new direction, which is essentially the purpose for a bridge, he just sings a bunch of “ahhhhhhhs.” Opportunity lost.

But I think the production on those songs is great.

T-Bone Burnett would be a fantastic choice.

Wow, that’s maybe the best option anyone has mentioned. As much as I like Rubin or Brion, Burnett would probably be a better fit. And Lord knows he's worked with plenty of egos over the years.

The more I think about all this discussion about Stevie recording separately or using a different producer and Lindsey being too inflexible in the studio, the more frustrated I get with both Lindsey and Stevie. Lindsey is a control freak, and Stevie is a prima donna. I’d hope that they could both compromise just enough to make this project [an album?] the best it can be. I really hope Christine, Mick, and John can prevail over both Lindsey AND Stevie to set aside their pettiness and make some great music again.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, but I started playing a bunch of FM songs on my phone the other day, and I heard several of them that I hadn’t heard in quite a while. “Hold Me” remains one of my favorite FM songs, and can I just say that I could listen to “Sara” all day? They groove so well on that simple chord progression.

I hope that Stevie truly does still have a creative spark that will help her write more songs like that. Not rewrites or rip-offs, but new songs that are different but equally good as the classics like “Sara.” Because that is a great song and a perfect recording.

matt

[elle]

It kinda cracks me up that some of the same people who complain about Lindsey’s production style---particularly the way he often slaps a lot of effects on vocals---are also saying that the THIS IS 40 songs sound unfinished. The thing I like most about those recordings is that they sound so intimate…it’s the best Lindsey’s voice has sounded in years. I pulled out the last few studio solo albums and also listened to some of his old stuff, and as much of a fan as I am, I think he ruined some very good songs with poor production on his vocals. “Cast Away Dreams” is a recent example.

Now, in the case of the THIS IS 40 songs, I like them all, but I think they sound undercooked from a songwriting point of view. For instance, “She Acts Like You” is a very good song…till it gets to the bridge section. Instead of going in a new direction, which is essentially the purpose for a bridge, he just sings a bunch of “ahhhhhhhs.” Opportunity lost.

But I think the production on those songs is great.

i am one of the people who absolutely hate what Lindsey does to his vocals in the studio (many of SWS songs, particularly SWS and TTWLG are some of the good examples).

my problem with This is 40 songs is not his vocals - they are intimate and natural, like he's talking to you. my problem is that the songs seem to be slapped together in 5 minutes without too much thought put into them. the songs can be just a voice and the guitar and still sound great and finished. i would love if WATL was recorded like that, for example. but as you pointed out (and She Acts Like You is actually the warmest and my favorite of This is 40 songs), there are barely any bridges and a lot (lot lot lot) of repetition in these songs. Brother and Sister would be great if it was cut in half... instead it goes on repetitively forever.

the other thing that i find interesting is that some of the people who complain about uneven production on GOS or SYW like it's the worst crime in the universe have no problem with very unevenly sounding songs on This is 40, if one actually listens to the whole soundtrack and not just LB's songs. :confused:

yes, SWS is very evenly produced and very finished. but i'd 1000 times rather have the original She Smiled Sweetly than the evenly produced one that ended up on the album... because i skip the album one so many times since it's nowhere near as sublime as the original GOS version.

[elle]

talking about uneven production and mixing... that seems to be the main complaint about EP songs too (from people who have actually heard the EP :rolleyes:).

that's another thing that confuses me - do the same people who love This is 40 songs so much really dislike an EP song like It Takes Time, which is just as sparse (but to me actually sounds much less lazy)? i guess they'd like LB to stick with his guitar and not try something new like a piano-based song?

songs on the EP are so different from each other with SA vs ITT vs WY being on such different parts of the spectrum, that other than uneven production (i'm guessing that happened because the EP idea came in at the last moment, since originally just SA and MF were going to be released as separate tracks for dl), i just don't get how one can put them all in the same basket. :shrug:

[michelej1]

that's another thing that confuses me - do the same people who love This is 40 songs so much really dislike an EP song like It Takes Time, which is just as sparse (but to me actually sounds much less lazy)?

I think It Takes Time is a much more intricate song than any of the This is 40 contributions. I mean, even aside from the production, if you strip all four songs down to the core, I think It Takes Time would be more thoughtful and complete than the other three and it has more variation and, I think, development, from one segment to the other.

Now, I can see Lindsey taking the This is 40 songs and making them into something quite different from what they are on the record if he did them live acoustic. I would look forward to that. In fact, I thought that's what was going to happen when he appeared at the Roxy. I thought he'd do the This is 40 tracks, but I was mistaken.

Michele

[RockawayBlind]

that's another thing that confuses me - do the same people who love This is 40 songs so much really dislike an EP song like It Takes Time, which is just as sparse (but to me actually sounds much less lazy)? i guess they'd like LB to stick with his guitar and not try something new like a piano-based song?

No mystery here. It's no mystery to me, nor should it be to most, that the sound is crap on the EP. That's the big difference from the This Is 40 songs. Granted, the production on This Is 40 is a little low in volume, but the warmth and clarity of the tracks is far better than anything we've gotten from Lindsey since Cradle.

Aside from that, the songs aren't very good. Without You sounds like it was recorded with plastic guitars. Sad Angel is OK, but there's hardly any substance to it. Now that Lindsey has given us Murrow, Peacekeeper and Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind, I expect better lyrics.

[elle]

I think It Takes Time is a much more intricate song than any of the This is 40 contributions. I mean, even aside from the production, if you strip all four songs down to the core, I think It Takes Time would be more thoughtful and complete than the other three and it has more variation and, I think, development, from one segment to the other.

yeah i think i'd agree with that. i think music-wise It Takes Time has more going for it. lyric-wise, as a parent, i love what She Acts Like You brings, it makes so much sense to me. Sick of You just seems lazy both music and lyric-wise. great and promising title, but so little development behind it.

[elle]

No mystery here. It's no mystery to me, nor should it be to most, that the sound is crap on the EP. That's the big difference from the This Is 40 songs. Granted, the production on This Is 40 is a little low in volume, but the warmth and clarity of the tracks is far better than anything we've gotten from Lindsey since Cradle.

Aside from that, the songs aren't very good. Without You sounds like it was recorded with plastic guitars. Sad Angel is OK, but there's hardly any substance to it. Now that Lindsey has given us Murrow, Peacekeeper and Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind, I expect better lyrics.

like Sick of You and Brother and Sister? ;)

This is 40 songs are not ALL low in volume, but LB's songs on that album are.

[RockawayBlind]

like Sick of You and Brother and Sister? ;)

This is 40 songs are not ALL low in volume, but LB's songs on that album are.

I can only guess that has something to do with the recordings he sent the producer. The volume probably couldn't be raised without distortion.

I've never praised the This Is 40 songs for lyrics. I've always been very clear that I like that they are well crafted, arranged and produced. Sonically, they sound better than anything Lindsey has done since Cradle. Really, this is one of my biggest problems with Lindsey and FM in general. I mean, these people had impeccable production right up to The Dance, and then it all when to doodoo. I don't get it. He can still hear, right?

[TrueFaith77]

Brother and Sister might be my fav Lindsey track of the 21st Century.

[aleuzzi]

Any new work by any of these people should be seen for what it is--a gift. We were lucky to have SYW, the EP, And the solo work. I bitch about the EP a bit, but in truth I am glad it was made.

It is time, however, for these five people to make a new studio album, their first in almost 30 years.

[elle]

Any new work by any of these people should be seen for what it is--a gift. We were lucky to have SYW, the EP, And the solo work. I bitch about the EP a bit, but in truth I am glad it was made.

It is time, however, for these five people to make a new studio album, their first in almost 30 years.

well said! :thumbsup:

[bluefox4000]

:rolleyes:).

that's another thing that confuses me - do the same people who love This is 40 songs so much really dislike an EP song like It Takes Time, which is just as sparse (but to me actually sounds much less lazy)? i guess they'd like LB to stick with his guitar and not try something new like a piano-based song?

:

It Takes time bores me to tears. I usually like slow dirges, lol but.....MAN. I can't explain what it is. Can't dig it though.

Mick

[Matt Lucas]

Hello all---

Okay, I was wrong. I listened to “She Acts Like You” and the other THIS IS 40 songs this morning, and SALY actually has a very good bridge [“I’d like to set her free/From everything I see/When she acts like me”]. It’s the instrumental/solo section that sounds kinda plain with the “ahhhhhs.” But man…I think that bridge may feature some of the best lyrics Lindsey’s ever written.

The THIS IS 40 tracks are interesting because of another reason that I don’t think anyone has brought up. They are collaborations between several of the artists who appear on the soundtrack. Norah Jones sings backing vocals on the songs, producer Jon Brion sings and plays on them, and Punch Brothers are the backing band, and I’m pretty sure I can hear Punch Brothers singer Chris Thile [who could be described as the Lindsey Buckingham of mandolin players] doing backing vocals, too. My point is that some of the decisions [i.e. the songs going on too long with lots of noodling at the end] might be part of the collaborative process. Anyway, I just think it’s interesting that Lindsey worked with all these artists, because he’s not really known for collaborations in his solo work.

To tie all of this back into the discussion about Christine’s return and the prospect of a new FM record, maybe the collaborations have softened Lindsey just a bit and made him realize that others can contribute to the recording process as well...

...not likely...but maybe?

matt

[elle]

maybe the collaborations have softened Lindsey just a bit and made him realize that others can contribute to the recording process as well...
seems to me the man has no problem collaborating or being a part of the group, especially when given the right people to collaborate with, whether when recording or on stage - http://www.billboard.com/articles/events/grammys-2014/5877057/grammys-nine-inch-nails-qotsa-dave-grohl-lindsey-buckingham?utm_source=twitter

[RockawayBlind]

the other thing that i find interesting is that some of the people who complain about uneven production on GOS or SYW like it's the worst crime in the universe have no problem with very unevenly sounding songs on This is 40, if one actually listens to the whole soundtrack and not just LB's songs. :confused:


I think this is apples and oranges. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I have made references to This Is 40 songs, I am talking specifically about Lindsey's tracks. I'm not sure I have paid that much attention to the other stuff, to be honest. When you compare the soundtrack's Lindsey songs to his production since Cradle, the evidence is there for all to hear that Lindsey has gone way, way too far with the studio tricks.

Another point I would make is that uneven production is typical of movie soundtracks. When you think about it, you are often pulling together already-released songs that might have been produced very differently.

[RockawayBlind]

that's another thing that confuses me - do the same people who love This is 40 songs so much really dislike an EP song like It Takes Time, which is just as sparse (but to me actually sounds much less lazy)? i guess they'd like LB to stick with his guitar and not try something new like a piano-based song?

songs on the EP are so different from each other with SA vs ITT vs WY being on such different parts of the spectrum, that other than uneven production (i'm guessing that happened because the EP idea came in at the last moment, since originally just SA and MF were going to be released as separate tracks for dl), i just don't get how one can put them all in the same basket. :shrug:

The production is uneven in the EP and the songs are subpar. So it's a combination of things. Yes, Lindsey's This Is 40 songs are simpler than what we have become accustomed to from him, and they are repetitious, but they are well crafted and pleasing to the ear, harkening back to some of the best pop stuff that Lindsey has done over the years. Honestly, the EP tracks are kind of embarrassing.

[TrueFaith77]

I think this is apples and oranges. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I have made references to This Is 40 songs, I am talking specifically about Lindsey's tracks. I'm not sure I have paid that much attention to the other stuff, to be honest. When you compare the soundtrack's Lindsey songs to his production since Cradle, the evidence is there for all to hear that Lindsey has gone way, way too far with the studio tricks.

I agree. I think it kinda works on Under the Skin because it's a concept album in that regard, but GOS and, especially, SWS have major problems. Sometimes sublimely gorgeous (When She Came Down) but sometimes not. And even on UTS it killed two songs that showed themselves to be peak modern Lindsey when performed live. Biggest problem: the whisper vocals and the synth percussion tracks. Both these qualities are blessedly not present on the This is 40 songs. It's just astonishing to hear Lindsey's vocals recorded straight--and for them to be so lovely.

[RockawayBlind]

Any new work by any of these people should be seen for what it is--a gift.

That is a valid way to look at it, from a fan's perspective. But there is a lot of good music out there. A lot. If you know where to look, you can find really amazing stuff. Just because radio today only plays overproduced, formulaic crap, we tend to forget there's a lot more that we don't hear. So, if FM is going to do something with artistic integrity, as opposed to just trying to get played on the radio because it's an obsession for them, we might get a good collection of songs. Otherwise, the results will be bland and uninteresting. And that would really be a waste.

[elle]

when I have made references to This Is 40 songs, I am talking specifically about Lindsey's tracks. I'm not sure I have paid that much attention to the other stuff, to be honest.
thought so.

Another point I would make is that uneven production is typical of movie soundtracks. When you think about it, you are often pulling together already-released songs that might have been produced very differently.
yes. i think i remember Apatow making a point about that being exact reason why he had a single producer working on all the tracks, so that wouldn't happen.

maybe also why he wanted it to be sold just as a whole, instead of individual tracks. seems it didn't help much - many Fiona's fans were listening to her track only, Norah's to hers, Ryan's to his, Lindsey's to his...

[elle]

That is a valid way to look at it, from a fan's perspective. But there is a lot of good music out there. A lot. If you know where to look, you can find really amazing stuff. Just because radio today only plays overproduced, formulaic crap, we tend to forget there's a lot more that we don't hear. So, if FM is going to do something with artistic integrity, as opposed to just trying to get played on the radio because it's an obsession for them, we might get a good collection of songs. Otherwise, the results will be bland and uninteresting. And that would really be a waste.

yes. and discussing what you do or do not like and why is very different from saying "my favorite band has just put out some new material, but i've never heard it and i don't want to because i have no doubt it's crap".

i agree that obsessing about radio play at this stage of their career is absurd. hope they are not. did David Bowie get much radio play last year? i don't think so. he still received a lot of accolades and respect for his album. FM should do whatever they want to, not whatever they think will be "commercial", both Mick and Lindsey were clear about that. the problem may be that different people in that band may want very different things, and their internal compromising to get to the sum of the parts may lead to results that may be bland or uninteresting. but i still would like to hear those, and would consider them a gift, as a fan.

(and i would like all that to happen fast, so that LB can go back to doing stuff that i really would love to hear, and that he should be doing anyway, since he's not getting any younger.)

[aleuzzi]

That is a valid way to look at it, from a fan's perspective. But there is a lot of good music out there. A lot. If you know where to look, you can find really amazing stuff. Just because radio today only plays overproduced, formulaic crap, we tend to forget there's a lot more that we don't hear. So, if FM is going to do something with artistic integrity, as opposed to just trying to get played on the radio because it's an obsession for them, we might get a good collection of songs. Otherwise, the results will be bland and uninteresting. And that would really be a waste.

This ain't my first rodeo. I've been listening to music for years and know where to look in all sorts of places.

That said, I stand by my original statement: any new music by these five people should be seen for what it is--a gift. I don't think for a minute their new material will disappoint, artistically or otherwise. Yes, I am a fan. I would imagine all of us on this site are fans!

[RockawayBlind]

thought so.


yes. i think i remember Apatow making a point about that being exact reason why he had a single producer working on all the tracks, so that wouldn't happen.

maybe also why he wanted it to be sold just as a whole, instead of individual tracks. seems it didn't help much - many Fiona's fans were listening to her track only, Norah's to hers, Ryan's to his, Lindsey's to his...

Well, there were previously released songs, so naturally there would have been differences in production no matter what.

[SteveMacD]

I'd love to hear them do a proper version of this.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/IuYmu5It-p8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[On Ice]

I'd love to hear them do a proper version of this.

Nice find! I can totally see her loving this style.:)

[aleuzzi]

I'd love to hear them do a proper version of this.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/IuYmu5It-p8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Those first four chords are close, if not identical to the first four chords of Remember Me.

[Johnny Stew]

Her defeatist comments after TISL failed to sell and her claim that poor sales were the result of fans stealing the music did not encourage me to think that that's not how she reacts to low-selling records. But she bucked up and put out IYD anyway and has fought for it. Good for her.

Those are two different things, though. Her expressing disappointment in 'TISL's' sales, and trying to find a reason that it didn't sell as well, isn't the same as disowning an album simply because it didn't move millions of copies. My point was, she still loves that album (and 'In Your Dreams') either way.

I do agree that she probably has different expectations for Fleetwood Mac's album sales. Record execs and fans do as well. For Stevie, I'm guessing it then became a question of, "is it worth the tension and conflicts to record with Fleetwood Mac, if I can do nearly as well with my own albums and without the stress?"

[michelej1]

Those are two different things, though. Her expressing disappointment in 'TISL's' sales, and trying to find a reason that it didn't sell as well, isn't the same as disowning an album simply because it didn't move millions of copies. My point was, she still loves that album (and 'In Your Dreams') either way.



She didn't disown TISL, but she expressed a bitterness about the lack of sales that reinforced my belief that she will dislike any FM album that doesn't sell. I don't think this behavior is isolated to just Street Angel.

Michele

[Johnny Stew]

She didn't disown TISL, but she expressed a bitterness about the lack of sales that reinforced my belief that she will dislike any FM album that doesn't sell. I don't think this behavior is isolated to just Street Angel.

Question -- when she was telling every interviewer in the Northern Hemisphere that there was "no reason to make an album, people will just steal it," did she ever specifically mention 'Trouble In Shangri-La?'"

I'm only asking because I honestly don't remember her citing 'TISL' as an example in that reasoning.

[michelej1]

Question -- when she was telling every interviewer in the Northern Hemisphere that there was "no reason to make an album, people will just steal it," did she ever specifically mention 'Trouble In Shangri-La?'"

I'm only asking because I honestly don't remember her citing 'TISL' as an example in that reasoning.

I don't think she ever said, "People stole TISL," but when asked why she didn't make another solo album after TISL -- she cited theft. Those interview comments came after she did Caesar's and were usually not related to why she wasn't making another FM album. They were about her solo work.

At any rate, they didn't make me think she wasn't bitter about low sales and looking to blame someone for them. Michele

[RockawayBlind]

I'm only asking because I honestly don't remember her citing 'TISL' as an example in that reasoning.

I'm not really sure that matters. The salient point seems to be that Stevie is hung up on selling records. It was clear with her SYW contributions that foremost on her mind was making commercial music that would sell. When that becomes your goal, it is highly unlikely you are going to create your best music, unless it just kind of happens.

The obsession with selling is wrong on several levels. Artistically, as I mentioned, it is going to affect quality and creativity. Commercially, well, it's pretty much moot at this point, since bands make most of their money from touring. Knowing this, she should just forget about trying to be commercial with her songs and, instead, contribute the best songs she can muster -- assuming she can.

[David]

She didn't disown TISL, but she expressed a bitterness about the lack of sales that reinforced my belief that she will dislike any FM album that doesn't sell. Don't you think that if Stevie starts to piss about it down the line, it will be owing to an unhappy experience recording it or touring behind it?

[Johnny Stew]

I don't think she ever said, "People stole TISL," but when asked why she didn't make another solo album after TISL -- she cited theft. Those interview comments came after she did Caesar's and were usually not related to why she wasn't making another FM album. They were about her solo work.

I remember that -- but I never connected those statements with anything having to do with 'Shangri-La's' sales. In fact, I'd be surprised if she weren't pleased with how well it did. Industry insiders, per the trade magazines, sure seemed to be impressed with its sales figures. It may not have sold a million, but surely someone had to have pointed out to Stevie that she had sold better than many of her contemporaries.

No, I think Stevie allowed herself to believe all the doom & gloom about the state of the recording industry in 2005, and let it cloud her judgment.

At any rate, they didn't make me think she wasn't bitter about low sales and looking to blame someone for them.

Again, even if she were bitter about 'TISL's' sales, the argument was that she doesn't like something only once it doesn't live up to sales expectations. I don't believe that to be true. But I do believe that she views low sales as a validation of her opinion when she already wasn't pleased with an album.

[michelej1]

Don't you think that if Stevie starts to piss about it down the line, it will be owing to an unhappy experience recording it or touring behind it?

I think that with FM, Stevie usually has an unhappy production or touring experience. Well, I think this Live 2013 tour was happy, but time will tell.

Before that though, before 2013, I think recording and touring with FM and fighting with Lindsey was always a very trying experience for her. BUT when the album has some success, it helps to mitigate the strife they went through to get it. It seems worth it. When the album has flagging sales, though, then everything bad about recording and touring on it seems to dampen her feelings about the album itself.

Michele

[Jondalar]

God, I hope Stevie can come up with some songs. I know Lindsey and Christine will knock it out of the park.

[michelej1]

Again, even if she were bitter about 'TISL's' sales, the argument was that she doesn't like something only once it doesn't live up to sales expectations. I don't believe that to be true. But I do believe that she views low sales as a validation of her opinion when she already wasn't pleased with an album.

No, that wasn't my argument. I never said she didn't like TISL. I said that she gets bitter and resentful when an album doesn't sell and that trigger response of hers about fans stealing her music reinforced my belief that she accuses when sales are low. You were saying we don't have enough instances of her condemning low selling records, but I think we do and I think her general attitude, the one that allows low sales to depress her, makes her want to lash out and blame someone or something for it.

As for her not having been pleased with the album already, I think that if the exact same album had great sales, then she would not dislike it, not publicly.

People think her tunes on Tango were very weak. We learned that she complained about not being on the album (from Mick) and she talked about the recording experience being a bad one once she showed up at the trailer. I can't imagine she liked TITN when it was made, but it's not an album on her hate list. I think she would hate that album if it hadn't sold. But it sold well and she doesn't complain about it. Other than its sales, I would think Tango has very little to recommend itself to Stevie. Gold records help ease disappointment.

Michele

[Jondalar]

No, that wasn't my argument. I never said she didn't like TISL. I said that she gets bitter and resentful when an album doesn't sell and that trigger response of hers about fans stealing her music reinforced my belief that she accuses when sales are low. You were saying we don't have enough instances of her condemning low selling records, but I think we do and I think her general attitude, the one that allows low sales to depress her, makes her want to lash out and blame someone or something for it.

As for her not having been pleased with the album already, I think that if the exact same album had great sales, then she would not dislike it, not publicly.

People think her tunes on Tango were very weak. We learned that she complained about not being on the album (from Mick) and she talked about the recording experience being a bad one once she showed up at the trailer. I can't imagine she liked TITN when it was made, but it's not an album on her hate list. I think she would hate that album if it hadn't sold. But it sold well and she doesn't complain about it. Other than its sales, I would think Tango has very little to recommend itself to Stevie. Gold records help ease disappointment.

Michele

Sometimes we like to believe our rock stars are deeper than what they are. When it comes to album sales, Stevie is about as deep as a raindrop. But reality has to already set in. She's not going to sale that many albums anymore.

[michelej1]

Sometimes we like to believe our rock stars are deeper than what they are. When it comes to album sales, Stevie is about as deep as a raindrop. But reality has to already set in. She's not going to sale that many albums anymore.

Yes, I think she may know that now, in her solo career. I think she may be sad but sanguine regarding IYD's performance, but I think they may all have higher expectations for the next FM album than reality should dictate.

Michele

[MikeInNV]

People think her tunes on Tango were very weak. We learned that she complained about not being on the album (from Mick) and she talked about the recording experience being a bad one once she showed up at the trailer. I can't imagine she liked TITN when it was made, but it's not an album on her hate list. I think she would hate that album if it hadn't sold. But it sold well and she doesn't complain about it. Other than its sales, I would think Tango has very little to recommend itself to Stevie. Gold records help ease disappointment.

I've heard her say so little about Tango that I can't presume to know if it's on her hate list or not. However, perhaps she is careful not to criticize that one because, given her minimal involvement, someone might turn it back on her that she should have worked harder on it. Also, it might come off as too derogatory toward LB and CN if she criticizes a work that is essentially just theirs and not so much hers.

[Johnny Stew]

No, that wasn't my argument. I never said she didn't like TISL. I said that she gets bitter and resentful when an album doesn't sell and that trigger response of hers about fans stealing her music reinforced my belief that she accuses when sales are low.

I didn't say that you said she doesn't like 'TISL' (yikes, that sentence made my head hurt). Your argument, as I understood it, was that she only dislikes an album if it doesn't sell well. I cited 'TISL' as an example to the contrary -- an album that didn't sell well, yet she still loves and is proud of.

Perhaps, though, I misunderstood what exactly it was that you were saying. You're not arguing that she only dislikes an album if it doesn't sell -- you're saying she's inclined to dislike certain albums from the very start, and only bites her tongue if they become a hit. Am I understanding that correctly?

If that is the case, then it seems like quite an assumption to me. However, I'm certainly making assumptions of my own here as well. We're both looking at the same examples, we're just forming two very different opinions.

[michelej1]

I've heard her say so little about Tango that I can't presume to know if it's on her hate list or not.

If it hadn't sold, I don't think you'd have to presume. I think she'd be pretty open about the criticism.

Aside from that, I've heard her say quite a bit about the album. There's not a dearth of comments. She usually talks about not being there and not thinking it fair that she had 2 songs, Chris 4 and Lindsey 6, but she doesn't talk about not liking the songs on the album.

Michele

[michelej1]

Perhaps, though, I misunderstood what exactly it was that you were saying.

What I'm saying is that she criticizes albums that don't sell. The fact that they don't sell prompts her to criticize them. Whether she likes them or not or liked recording them or not, it's the sales that makes her openly lambast them. I think there have been plenty examples of this in the past to support my conclusion. You disagree and I don't agree with your disagreement.

Michele

[Johnny Stew]

What I'm saying is that she criticizes albums that don't sell. The fact that they don't sell prompts her to criticize them. Whether she likes them or not or liked recording them or not, it's the sales that makes her openly lambast them. I think there have been plenty examples of this in the past to support my conclusion. You disagree and I don't agree with your disagreement.

I still don't see how two examples of her lambasting low-selling albums constitutes "plenty," but so be it.

[MikeInNV]

I still don't see how two examples of her lambasting low-selling albums constitutes "plenty," but so be it.

And she's not criticizing IYD yet, so that's good.

[Jondalar]

And she's not criticizing IYD yet, so that's good.

She is still promoting. It garnered her the best critical response of her solo career. She is not going to criticize it.

[michelej1]

I still don't see how two examples of her lambasting low-selling albums constitutes "plenty," but so be it.

I see it as three examples (Street Angel, Tusk and Say You Will), combined with her general fixation on sales, as when she discussed the reason why SYW should not be a double album and when she blamed fans for stealing her music as the reason that albums don't sell. Contrast that with her failure to criticize the content of albums that sold more, but contained more inferior content. You see no trend. I see a rather distinct one.

I think sales rates have influenced her perspective strongly.

Michele

[michelej1]

And she's not criticizing IYD yet, so that's good.

I don't expect her to criticize IYD. She started it with the idea that it wouldn't sell very much, with her management telling her that it wouldn't and perhaps telling her not to waste her time. And instead of listening to them, as she might have before, she said she went forward with it anyway. She made a conscious effort to push aside the disappointment she'd felt with sales in the past to do something she believed in.

I see that as turning a new corner in her solo career.

For FM though, I think she (and the band in general) may still have some sales objectives that they won't see met, in the end.

Michele

[Johnny Stew]

I see it as three examples (Street Angel, Tusk and Say You Will), combined with her general fixation on sales, as when she discussed the reason why SYW should not be a double album and when she blamed fans for stealing her music as the reason that albums don't sell. Contrast that with her failure to criticize the content of albums that sold more, but contained more inferior content. You see no trend. I see a rather distinct one.

I think sales rates have influenced her perspective strongly.

The only thing she ever criticized about 'Tusk,' were Lindsey's songs (which Christine also admitted to not being crazy about).

Look, I don't disagree that sales have been important to Stevie. I've long maintained that album sales and ticket sales were, for her, validation that her music was striking a chord -- just as Lindsey's validation has always been critical praise. When something that you've grown accustomed to, is no longer there, it requires quite an adjustment in your thinking.

Contrast that with her failure to criticize the content of albums that sold more, but contained more inferior content. You see no trend. I see a rather distinct one.

I know it's hard to believe, but maybe she actually likes her songs on 'Mirage' and 'Tango.' (She talked glowingly to MTV about "When I See You Again," roughly half a year before the album was released. Even compared it to "Landslide.")

And then there's 'Behind The Mask,' which was a bomb compared to the sales of previous albums. I've never once heard her lambast that one.

[shackin'up]

(She talked glowingly to MTV about "When I See You Again," roughly half a year before the album was released. Even compared it to "Landslide".
Which proves that, by that time, she was totally detached from reality.

[TrueFaith77]

I think she uses sales as a whip to lash Lindsey. As for Street Angel, as a whip to lash klono.

[golddustwoman77]

I think it is important for a band to continue to evolve. That means continuing to write and make new music. I think it keeps the members fresh and musically happy to make new music. I think a new album would be wonderful, maybe add to the Extended Play. Having said that, they can still devote most of their concerts to the "classic" material, and just do a few of the new songs. What is wrong with that?

[SteveMacD]

And then there's 'Behind The Mask,' which was a bomb compared to the sales of previous albums. I've never once heard her lambast that one.
She quit the band and has acted like that never even happened since.

[Johnny Stew]

She quit the band and has acted like that never even happened since.

She had plenty of opportunities to complain about the album when she was being questioned all throughout the latter part of 1991 about quitting the band, but she never once said a single negative thing about it. I do agree, however, that it's no longer on her radar.

[michelej1]

The only thing she ever criticized about 'Tusk,' were Lindsey's songs (which Christine also admitted to not being crazy about).


No, she also repeatedly criticized Tusk for being a double album. Why does the fact that it's a double album matter to her, because it decreases sales, a view that was elucidated in Destiny Rules.

Yes, maybe she does like her Tango and Mirage songs. I just don't think it's a coincidence that she, surprise, likes songs on albums that sold.

Michele

[RockawayBlind]

I can't imagine she liked TITN when it was made, but it's not an album on her hate list. I think she would hate that album if it hadn't sold. But it sold well and she doesn't complain about it. Other than its sales, I would think Tango has very little to recommend itself to Stevie. Gold records help ease disappointment.

Michele

That's an excellent point. Interestingly enough, FM needed Stevie to make that album succeed, but ultimately, her songs were the weakest. Commercially, even Lindsey's songs -- which typically were the least successful -- did better on that album.

[michelej1]

She quit the band and has acted like that never even happened since.

And she told Nicky Horne that her business reps thought that Lindsey's exit was devastating to the band any way. She said they didn't even want her to do the tour, because she could make more money solo. So, I think she went into BTM thinking it would go nowhere from the start.

But she did it out of loyalty to FM and she says she had a great time with Rick.

If she'd ever had any hopes for BTM and then it had failed on the charts, I believe her attitude would not be the same. But when you do it, thinking it's a lost battle already, it's a different ball game.

Michele

[MacShadowsBall]

I wish somebody in an interview would ask Stevie "What are your three favorite Mac albums", much like what was asked of Christine last year.

I believe Christine said Rumours, Tusk, and Mystery to Me are her favorites, though she said the last one was a distant third. :cool:

[michelej1]

I wish somebody in an interview would ask Stevie "What are your three favorite Mac albums", much like what was asked of Christine last year.

I believe Christine said Rumours, Tusk, and Mystery to Me are her favorites, though she said the last one was a distant third. :cool:

Christine didn't say Tusk. But I agree with you that people should ask Stevie that.

Poor Lindsey. He says the others have told him that they like Tusk. Mick likes it. I don't know about the other 3. They may like it ok, but it's no one else's favorite, I'm sure. He is fooling himself.

Michele

[RockawayBlind]

I think sales rates have influenced her perspective strongly.

Michele

Yeah, I don't see how anyone could even dispute that, especially when she was giddy in her introduction of the SYW track to record execs and stressing how sellable she thought it was (no wonder she was disappointed in the actual sales). If there were any doubts before that, they should have been put to rest then and there.

[RockawayBlind]

T I've never once heard her lambast that one.

None of the band members talk about Behind the Mask or Time. They act like those albums never happened, and I can't say I blame them.

[MacShadowsBall]

Christine didn't say Tusk. But I agree with you that people should ask Stevie that.

Poor Lindsey. He says the others have told him that they like Tusk. Mick likes it. I don't know about the other 3. They may like it ok, but it's no one else's favorite, I'm sure. He is fooling himself.

Michele

Why was I thinking Tusk? It was the '75 Mac/white album.

One thing to look at is what albums did they each enjoy making and how was his or her life during that time. :cool:

[David]

Poor Lindsey. He says the others have told him that they like Tusk. Mick likes it. I don't know about the other 3. They may like it ok, but it's no one else's favorite, I'm sure. Stevie grew to like Tusk. In 1986, she told a radio guy (in an interview about being on the road for Rock a Little) that she was "just now" coming to really "get" Tusk—its mystique and exoticism.

Of course, there must still be discrete moments Stevie never grew to like—Not That Funny or What Makes You Think or That's Enough for Me.

[michelej1]

Stevie grew to like Tusk. In 1986, she told a radio guy (in an interview about being on the road for Rock a Little) that she was "just now" coming to really "get" Tusk—its mystique and exoticism.



Yes, I know she changed her way of thinking years later and, by that time the critics were lauding it as an achievement, rather than an extravagant failure.

She said she's listened to it with her headphones on and learned to appreciate each song.

Michele

[HomerMcvie]

She said she's listened to it with her headphones on and learned to appreciate each song.

Michele

That's because Stevie's an idiot. :o:laugh::wavey:

[secondhandchain]

I think some of you might want to revisit Brother and Sister. Listen to that song with headphones. The guitar work and production at the end is brilliant.

[Dragon]

I am definitely up to hear a new Fleetwood Mac LP. I do not know how quickly one could be recorded if the band tours later this year.

I would not mind releasing a few more extended plays. Releasing an EP with four tracks to satisfy the need of new music for us and for them to reacquaint the chemistry would be beneficial.

I would not mind seeing Nicks releasing extended plays.

[SpyNote]

And then there's 'Behind The Mask,' which was a bomb compared to the sales of previous albums. I've never once heard her lambast that one.

Actually, I doubt that she even remembers recording songs for Behind the Mask because of the Klonopin! I also blame the Klonopin for why she can't remember the lyrics to "Rooms on Fire" and "Whole Lotta Trouble" to this day.

[shackin'up]

I think some of you might want to revisit Brother and Sister. Listen to that song with headphones. The guitar work and production at the end is brilliant.

I know. It's mesmerizingly great. A shame that we have to sit through
Repetative, long brother and sisteeeeeeeeeeeeeeers before we get there.

[shackin'up]

Stevie grew to like Tusk. In 1986, she told a radio guy (in an interview about being on the road for Rock a Little) that she was "just now" coming to really "get" Tusk—its mystique and exoticism.

Of course, there must still be discrete moments Stevie never grew to like—Not That Funny or What Makes You Think or That's Enough for Me.

You mean the songs that made me a lifelong fan? :laugh:

[secret love]

Actually, I doubt that she even remembers recording songs for Behind the Mask because of the Klonopin! I also blame the Klonopin for why she can't remember the lyrics to "Rooms on Fire" and "Whole Lotta Trouble" to this day.

I don't think you can blame the Klonopin. She didn't have to take the drug - but she did, and continued to do so even when it clearly wasn't working for her. Not only that, she abused Klonopin by not taking it as prescribed and by mixing it with all sorts of other drugs (apparently to help alleviate side effects of Klonopin). She has been very irresponsible in openly encouraging people not to take the drug - especially when some people may stand to benefit from it if they take it as prescribed, but instead they take the unqualified advice of a musician. She holds herself responsible for her cocaine abuse, she ought to hold herself responsible for her own prescription medication abuse, and for not seeking help earlier when she knew she had a problem. It's a bit of a cop-out to blame mistakes on a drug rather than your choices and drug taking which led to the mistakes.

[Cammie]

:xoxo:I don't think I would be such an obsessed Fleetwood Mac fan if Tusk didn't exist. I love Tusk. Thank you !!! Couldn't say it better!!!!!!!:]
Lindsey is The Man...Forever and Ever...Amen !!!! :cool:

[WildHearted]

I don't think you can blame the Klonopin. She didn't have to take the drug - but she did, and continued to do so even when it clearly wasn't working for her. Not only that, she abused Klonopin by not taking it as prescribed and by mixing it with all sorts of other drugs (apparently to help alleviate side effects of Klonopin). She has been very irresponsible in openly encouraging people not to take the drug - especially when some people may stand to benefit from it if they take it as prescribed, but instead they take the unqualified advice of a musician. She holds herself responsible for her cocaine abuse, she ought to hold herself responsible for her own prescription medication abuse, and for not seeking help earlier when she knew she had a problem. It's a bit of a cop-out to blame mistakes on a drug rather than your choices and drug taking which led to the mistakes.

Right... But the memory loss was a side effect of the Klonopin. Therefore it's due to the Klonopin that she can't remember certain periods of time. Stevie's personal responsibility for her addiction/usage doesn't change that. You can blame the Klonopin for its effects on Stevie, but the Klonopin didn't take itself.

[Brad]

She has been very irresponsible in openly encouraging people not to take the drug - especially when some people may stand to benefit from it if they take it as prescribed, but instead they take the unqualified advice of a musician.

Thank you! I'm sick of hearing her describe Klonopin as if the devil himself created it. It works wonderfully well when taken as intended (as do most drugs), so just because she abused it doesn't mean she needs to vilify and place blame on it; the blame lies solely on her. Then again, people take Jenny McCarthy's advice when it comes to not vaccinating their kids, so...

[MoonSister75]

:xoxo: Thank you !!! Couldn't say it better!!!!!!!:]
Lindsey is The Man...Forever and Ever...Amen !!!! :cool:

Thanks for finding my comment buried way back in this thread! :xoxo:

Yes Tusk is a masterpiece! To me, Rumours and the White album are great but very 70's, TITN is great but very 80's, where as Tusk is timeless... Its an album I never get bored of. There is so much to it, and it's perfect as a double album. I read a comment once, I think it was on Amazon, someone said something like....sit somewhere quiet and undisturbed, and listen to Tusk the whole way through to really appreciate how magnificent it is. To me there isn't another album that comes close.

Can you hear me Lindsey? I love Tusk!! :nod:

Is that enough Tusk love? ;)

[MoonSister75]

Thank you! I'm sick of hearing her describe Klonopin as if the devil himself created it. It works wonderfully well when taken as intended (as do most drugs), so just because she abused it doesn't mean she needs to vilify and place blame on it; the blame lies solely on her. Then again, people take Jenny McCarthy's advice when it comes to not vaccinating their kids, so...

I think the problem is "blame" itself. I've never felt comfortable with Stevie blaming this doctor, and I don't like hearing people blame Stevie for her addictions. These things just happen, due to many factors. I'm sure its very difficult to treat someone with a 10+ year Cocaine addiction. I personally don't like the sound of these kinds of prescription drugs. I guess sometimes they have their uses, but some seem worryingly addictive. It would have been great if she could have found a better treatment.

[PenguinHead]

Hello all---


matt

Hi Matt. I enjoyed reading your post and concur with everything you articulated about the Mac. I am also a huge Crowded House/Neil Finn fan...been obsessed for decades! I have seen Crowded House and Neil Finn solo at least a dozen times. Wasn't aware that Neil has another solo album coming out. Great news!

It's always exciting for me to find others who seem to have the same appreciation for a certain realm of integrity in music. Crowded House and Fleetwood Mac are two completely different worlds.

[iamnotafraid]

I would vote yes to a new Fleetwood Mac album
if they would take a look back at the albums
(White, Rumours) that made them what they are.
And try to replicate that sound.

There's no use for Tusk (my personal favorite) or
anything that came after it. Even though many of
us like some of the material released after 1980, it
does not compare with the albums from '75 and '77.
That sweet Fleetwood Mac sound.

Use a great studio. Fight before and during the recording
process. Get a great producer. No digital tricks - all analog.

From Christine I want warmth. Stevie, I just want her to
actually sing. And Lindsey you had better not whisper
even once.

That's the recipe.

[Kubrick2788]

I would think that the Lindsey that brought Sad Angel and Miss Fantasy to the table is the one showing up. If only for the sake of having a commercially viable album. Obviously he tried to stay pop with the EP (save for the piano ballad that was wildly out of place IMO), so I would think, especially with Christine back, he would be shooting for a more classic style. Maybe a second (pipe dream) album from the 5 would be Tusk level weird again. And that would be a good thing.

[elle]

I would think that the Lindsey that brought Sad Angel and Miss Fantasy to the table is the one showing up. If only for the sake of having a commercially viable album. Obviously he tried to stay pop with the EP (save for the piano ballad that was wildly out of place IMO), so I would think, especially with Christine back, he would be shooting for a more classic style. Maybe a second (pipe dream) album from the 5 would be Tusk level weird again. And that would be a good thing.

yes, why not?

people complain all over these threads that they don't want the pop LB from the the EP, that Christine can do that instead. my thinking is more on the same page as you - why not having 2 albums - one pop followed by a weird one?

of course, personally i would probably hate that. his Grammy performance with Trent and the guys whetted my appetite for solo FM-less LB again. and i assume that won't happen for a long long time now... then again, his Hesitation Marks involvement and Grammy performance came out of the blue and didn't take much of his time either, so maybe there's some hope for something like that too in between all this Mac work he'll be doing this year??

[michelej1]

yes, why not?

people complain all over these threads that they don't want the pop LB from the the EP, that Christine can do that instead. my thinking is more on the same page as you - why not having 2 albums - one pop followed by a weird one?



If you start with the pop one and it disappoints them, they will never proceed to the weird one. If fans actually want two albums, the best approach would be with them to start with something a little avant garde, which they know is "out there" and they will not have high expectations about. Therefore, it won't hurt morale and then follow that up with something more traditional.

Michele

[elle]

If you start with the pop one and it disappoints them, they will never proceed to the weird one. If fans actually want two albums, the best approach would be with them to start with something a little avant garde, which they know is "out there" and they will not have high expectations about. Therefore, it won't hurt morale and then follow that up with something more traditional.

Michele

UTS followed by GOS. :p

i guess it depends who's "them" in "disappoints them".

[michelej1]

UTS followed by GOS. :p

i guess it depends who's "them" in "disappoints them".

I meant the band, actually. I don't think they yet realize what we know, which is that this album will not sell and no one will care about it except, hopefully, critics.

And actually I was very much thinking about UTS and the way I would have rejected it if it had come after GOS when I wrote that.

Michele

[elle]

I meant the band, actually. I don't think they yet realize what we know, which is that this album will not sell and no one will care about it except, hopefully, critics.

from what Mick has been saying - it's about getting new stuff out and being relevant that way, it will not sell anyway - i suspect Mick and Lindsey are aware of it.

although they both strike me as realizing that consciously, but still hoping that some kind of success may happen. and by success i mean high placement on the charts, not making any money of the album. they make tons of money touring anyway. like someone said, there are right kinds of promotion these days. sales after coven prove that. whatever makes you trend on twitter is the same thing that will give you sales.

[michelej1]

although they both strike me as realizing that consciously, but still hoping that some kind of success may happen. and by success i mean high placement on the charts, not making any money of the album. they make tons of money touring anyway. like someone said, there are right kinds of promotion these days. sales after coven prove that. whatever makes you trend on twitter is the same thing that will give you sales.

But tie ins don't always help. SYW had that tie in with NBC where they got played on Friends and then they did Dateline. I think they were mentioned on Third Watch and they were on the Today Show and Leno, but that didn't help sales at all. You have to be on the right shows. I suppose they know that now, based on attention for Glee, Coven, American Idol, SNL, etc.

Michele

[Kubrick2788]

That is key anymore. Maybe if Lindsey wanted to go on Jimmy Fallon and play tissue boxes with the Roots... I just don't see them getting on SNL as a musical guest though. Not anymore. Unless the host is meant for an older audience as well...which is rarely ever.

[jbrownsjr]

But tie ins don't always help. SYW had that tie in with NBC where they got played on Friends and then they did Dateline. I think they were mentioned on Third Watch and they were on the Today Show and Leno, but that didn't help sales at all. You have to be on the right shows. I suppose they know that now, based on attention for Glee, Coven, American Idol, SNL, etc.

Michele

They also had an AOL exclusive with Peacekeeper Live to promote.