Making Rumours by Ken Caillat

[Jondalar]

Explosive Ken Caillat Interview: Famed Fleetwood Mac Producer Recounts Turmoil

Famed Fleetwood Mac Producer Recounts the Turmoil and Triumphs of ‘Rumours’

"Were the band members asked to participate?
I got a call back from the management, and he said, “Lindsey might write his own book, so he has asked the band not to support you and the book.” They basically said, “No. We’re not going to do the book.”

"Christine McVie has read the book now, and she told me that she loved it. Christine said that I brought passion back into the music for her and brought back so many memories. She’s the only real sweetheart in the group. The rest of them are all fighting with each other."

Christine might’ve given you an interview to use in the book.
"Right. But, Fleetwood Mac is a very complex group. I talked to Warner Bros. the other day. I was working on footage for the enhanced book and they used the “F” word, saying, “You know, Fleetwood Mac is just a nightmare."

"At the time, Christine said she would definitely do an interview. Then, she asked if anyone else in the band had given one. I said, “Well, honestly, no. Lindsey said he didn’t want them doing it because he said he might want one day to do a book himself.” Christine said, “I don’t want to go against anybody else.”

"There was no responsibility for anybody to take care of anybody else, but they are rich and some of the people like Judy Wong … she was found in her apartment after being dead for a week. Judy did everything for Christine McVie and the band, and for her not to be given whatever she needed … she died toothless. "

"Ray Lindsey, a roadie, works for Conan. He said, “Ken, I’m kind of haunted by this. I feel like I want to write a book to tell about it and to get the demons out of my head.” Richard said that they’ve pretty much abandoned him. He would work for Lindsey three years straight without getting a check. He just took advantage of him. So, Richard, being a pretty sensitive guy, just sold and gave away every piece of Fleetwood Mac memorabilia he had."

"I used to be able to call Mick or Stevie directly, but now I get someone else who answers and says, “Who’s this? Oh yeah, you’re the guy from 20 years ago.”

"Do you know of any plans for Fleetwood Mac to reunite for a tour?"
"Nope. I don’t think so. I did a Christine McVie album in 2003, and I suggested that before Fleetwood Mac ever goes on the next tour maybe they should go into the studio and record a few songs from Christine’s 2005 album. It would be really great because it would be the first Fleetwood Mac/Christine songs in a long time, and it would break through to the radio."

"Christine loved the idea. But, who knows? I told that to Mick, but he has no power over anybody. If Stevie thinks that Lindsey thought of something first, she’ll say ‘no,’ and vice versa. They could be doing so well, you know? If they had only listened to me, they could be doing so well. They’re just people. They have ups and downs, and quite honestly, they’re all down now. They could make a lot of people happy if they’d just cut the crap and just be human beings, not anything special."

"They’re not friggin’ special, and their crap stinks like everybody else’s, goddamit! They need to just get it through their heads. They need to knock it off and just be real. Nobody gets to put anybody down with power trips."

"I got a message on Facebook saying, “I love this book. Would you please write Tusk?” I actually started writing Tusk. I’m only about ten pages in, but I’m not sure I’m really that excited about doing it because it’s going to be a little more negative than this one. I think this book is pretty light with a loving look at music."

Read the full interview at Smashinginterviews

http://smashinginterviews.com/interviews/authors/ken-caillat-interview-famed-fleetwood-mac-producer-recounts-the-turmoil-and-triumphs-of-rumours

Read the full interview. there is lots more than this. This is edited

[Josh2003]

Shouldn't this be in the Rumours forum?

[mikephxaz]

it sounds like sour grapes too me......Is he complaining that no one from FM wants to help him market his own book?? :distress:

[louielouie2000]

it sounds like sour grapes too me......Is he complaining that no one from FM wants to help him market his own book?? :distress:

I think it's more than sour grapes. Ken is just saying the exact same things which Mick himself recently said in his scathing Playboy interview. Even Stevie & Lindsey have said the same things about Fleetwood Mac. They all blame each other, but no one is willing to take responsibility & put their pride aside. It's unfortunate. I feel like Fleetwood Mac probably has died it's final death, & that the possibility of a new, great studio album is dead too. I dearly hope I'm wrong, though. :)

[michelej1]

If it's true that:

1. Christine didn't want to go against the rest of the band, and

2. Christine was open to the idea of recording some of her solo songs with FM,

Then, I'm happy.

Michele

[mylittledemon]

haha "scathing"... I enjoyed it for sure. I definitely think Ken has many valid points. I think he, like many of us, are a bit tired of the senselessness of some of the things the band does. They just need to be a band and get on with it. The bits about Dashut were extremely disheartening... but hey, we're only getting Kens side of the story. Even if Lindsey, Stevie, and John were to all wrote their own books, I don't reckon we'll ever really know the full truth. ;)

[louielouie2000]

If it's true that:

1. Christine didn't want to go against the rest of the band, and

2. Christine was open to the idea of recording some of her solo songs with FM,

Then, I'm happy.

Michele

That's long been confirmed, hasn't it? :shrug: I thought Chris was just opposed to touring, which is why she was not allowed to record with FM for SYW.

[KarmaContestant]

Really kind of shocked about Judy Wong. Just....wow.

[michelej1]

That's long been confirmed, hasn't it? :shrug: I thought Chris was just opposed to touring, which is why she was not allowed to record with FM for SYW.

Well, this was true during the SYW recording process. Ken's comments make it sound like it was also true some time after that. I like to think it's a continued openness.

Michele

[MrStevie]

Wow, Ken...just wow!

Petty and small...same as he paints the band members. :sorry: The goat, once again, is... the envelope please! :lol: So Ken was just sucking up at the Tech Awards? Didn't pay off the way he expected? :shrug:

Poor Judy. Poor Rich. Poor Ray. The band just takes advantage of people then dumps them. Band members don't support former employees for life?:eek: That sucks. :(

As part of the FM family I wonder if Ken's sharing his book royalties with Rich, or Ray, or any of the other people who've been left in the dust by the band?

[Josh2003]

Really kind of shocked about Judy Wong. Just....wow.

I had the same thought at first too...but when was the last time Judy was associated with FM? Early 80s? And even then, her really prime involvement, I believe, was a decade prior. Sure, it would have been nice to think that they had some sort of relationship with Judy up until the end of her life, but how do we know they didn't?

I also read somewhere that Mick/the band payed for her entire funeral. Could be a case of "too little, too late," or maybe they did have a good relationship up until the end. I don't know.

[HomerMcvie]

As much as I can't wait to read Ken's book, and respect Ken, I don't think it's fair for the band to be expected to take care of former employees, decades after employment ended. Just because they have the money, doesn't mean it's their money, too!

I hope that Ray really didn't work for 3 years without a check! Now, if that's true, they should at least make that right.

I wasn't aware that Ray was no longer with them...does anyone know what happened???

[WildHearted]

Well, this was interesting.

So basically, Lindsey's writing a book. Christine is interested in recording with the band and basically doesn't want to do anything against their wishes. Everyone sucks at communicating and they all are horrible to the people they used to work with - except for Christine, the only sweet one.

I told that to Mick, but he has no power over anybody. If Stevie thinks that Lindsey thought of something first, she’ll say ‘no,’ and vice versa. They could be doing so well, you know?

So wait.. does this mean that Stevie won't do something if Lindsey wants to do it (and vice versa) or that Stevie won't do something UNLESS Lindsey wants to (and vice versa)?

[SteveMacD]

As much as I can't wait to read Ken's book, and respect Ken, I don't think it's fair for the band to be expected to take care of former employees, decades after employment ended. Just because they have the money, doesn't mean it's their money, too!

I hope that Ray really didn't work for 3 years without a check! Now, if that's true, they should at least make that right.

I wasn't aware that Ray was no longer with them...does anyone know what happened???
I remember LB and Stevie mentioning it was Ray's last show during the last SYW show.

I think it was Richard who went 3 years w/o a check.

I think the band does owe something to employees, especially long-term ones. Especially Judy. She arranged the band's first US tour back in '68, she brought Bob Welch into the fold, she was a major part of the band during the heyday...You take care of people who take care of you.

[michelej1]

As much as I can't wait to read Ken's book, and respect Ken, I don't think it's fair for the band to be expected to take care of former employees, decades after employment ended. Just because they have the money, doesn't mean it's their money, too!

I agree. Even though simple charity would prompt you to help someone if you can, to keep them from being homeless, you can't support them indefinitely. If you paid them fairly when they were with you, that's about all you can be expected to do.



I wasn't aware that Ray was no longer with them...does anyone know what happened???

I don't know, but even after he'd stopped working for Lindsey he showed up when Lindsey first started promoting his GOS album, to help for a couple of those first appearances. Then, I haven't seen him around since.

Michele

[michelej1]

So wait.. does this mean that Stevie won't do something if Lindsey wants to do it (and vice versa) or that Stevie won't do something UNLESS Lindsey wants to (and vice versa)?

They won't do anything that the other one wants to do, if they think it was the other one's idea.:laugh:

But wait, shouldn't that mean that the fact that Lindsey doesn't want any of them to speak to Ken would cause Stevie to really want to give Ken an interview?

Michele

[SteveMacD]

They won't do anything that the other one wants to do, if they think it was the other one's idea.:laugh:

But wait, shouldn't that mean that the fact that Lindsey doesn't want any of them to speak to Ken would cause Stevie to really want to give Ken an interview?
Lindsey has too much dirt on her. :laugh:

[WildHearted]

They won't do anything that the other one wants to do, if they think it was the other one's idea.:laugh:

But wait, shouldn't that mean that the fact that Lindsey doesn't want any of them to speak to Ken would cause Stevie to really want to give Ken an interview?

Michele

That's was my thinking haha.

There's no telling with these guys, I suppose. :D

[MrStevie]

I remember LB and Stevie mentioning it was Ray's last show during the last SYW show.

I think it was Richard who went 3 years w/o a check.

I think the band does owe something to employees, especially long-term ones. Especially Judy. She arranged the band's first US tour back in '68, she brought Bob Welch into the fold, she was a major part of the band during the heyday...You take care of people who take care of you.

Richard doesn't get royalties for work he did as co-producer and co-writer? Who was paying all his bills for those 3 years? :confused:

People with the band should take care of one another, as Mick says. But if anybody owed Judy Wong it was Mick. I guess, Christine, too. According to Ken, Judy did everything for Chris. Why do I get the impression Ken feels other members owe the people forgotten by the band?

[michelej1]

Richard doesn't get royalties for work he did as co-producer and co-writer? Who was paying all his bills for those 3 years? :confused:



Well, he didn't have to pay much rent, since he and Lindsey were still roomies. In the end they gave him pie, lots of whip cream and a watch. I'm sure he was happy.

Of course, his writer/producer royalties wouldn't even be coming from FM anyway.


Michele

[Josh2003]

I think the band does owe something to employees, especially long-term ones. Especially Judy. She arranged the band's first US tour back in '68, she brought Bob Welch into the fold, she was a major part of the band during the heyday...You take care of people who take care of you.

Yes, but that duty has to end at some point. When was Judy last even involved with FM?

[MikeInNV]

The part that makes it seem like sour grapes to me is where he says, "they're all down now." Really? Yes, Mick seems to be having some issues, as he does from time to time. I bet John is happy sailing his boat somewhere. Lindsey seems to be enjoying his solo work. Stevie is probably as happy as she's ever been. We all have things we would like to see Fleetwood Mac do, but, like all of us, they have to live their lives for themselves, not for their former associates.

[SteveMacD]

Yes, but that duty has to end at some point. When was Judy last even involved with FM?
Who says it has to end? The Grateful Dead actually have a pension plan for their roadies. You certainly don't let somebody who was THAT important die toothless!

As for Judy's involvement, there was a pic of her in the 1990 tourbook.

[CADreaming]

Well, what are they all afraid of then? Why isn't everybody writing books and dishing the dirt to exorcise the demons like Carol Ann Harris did? :shrug:

Lindsey was receptive to Stevie's idea to go to Paris during Unleashed. In fact, he garnered a big compliment from Stevie that he was being his "very lovely self" and said "Ok, we'll got to Paris." He had to know it was her idea since she had been adamant enough to say she was going to Paris if she had to go by herself and sing on the street corner. :laugh: She must have got him on a really good day.

[SteveMacD]

Well, what are they all afraid of then? Why isn't everybody writing books and dishing the dirt to exorcise the demons like Carol Ann Harris did? :shrug:
They don't have a superstar daughter and still have to worry about getting/keeping work :shrug:

Lindsey was receptive to Stevie's idea to go to Paris during Unleashed. In fact, he garnered a big compliment from Stevie that he was being his "very lovely self" and said "Ok, we'll got to Paris." He had to know it was her idea since she had been adamant enough to say she was going to Paris if she had to go by herself and sing on the street corner. :laugh: She must have got him on a really good day.
In other words, somebody offered the band a helluva lotta money.

[louielouie2000]

Everyone sucks at communicating and they all are horrible to the people they used to work with - except for Christine, the only sweet one.

I found Ken's change of tune regarding Chris to be rather intriguing. He was just saying less than a year ago how cold & even strange Christine has become- how he wasn't allowed in the room when her dogs were eating, stuff like that. I wonder why Christine is suddenly the saint, while the rest of the band are evil? :shrug:

[David]

So basically, Lindsey's writing a book.If I interpreted the response Ken got correctly, it doesn't mean "Lindsey is writing a book." It means "Take a hike, buddy. I'm his manager now and I'm not even going to pass on your request to him. I'm in power and I'll decide whether and when Lindsey Buckingham does anything for you." Lindsey's not writing any book.

He has a bitchy little manager--as do the others--who functions exactly the way mid-management functions in a big company: as a buffer, as a way of keeping the rank-and-file employees (meaning old colleagues, fans, and press) at a great distance.

Stevie, too. She has proved over and over (like yesterday on TV) that she herself is a sweet, affable person. But that is not her management, and has never been. They are little twerps whose purpose is to keep people out. Whatever the girl's name is (Karen?), she is a nobody who has been given great power to abuse people's starry-eyed love, and who very successfully buffers her boss from anyone she chooses. She is a mid-manager: she doesn't produce the product and she doesn't create the vision for the product. She's just the Human Resources woman, monitoring behavior.

Ken is just extremely frustrated with the management surrounding the group. On the one hand, I don't blame him, but on the other, he himself has been in the business so long, he ought to be used to it. He also probably had buffers around him during the Rumours years.

[CADreaming]

If I interpreted the response Ken got correctly, it doesn't mean "Lindsey is writing a book." It means "Take a hike, buddy. I'm his manager now and I'm not even going to pass on your request to him. I'm in power and I'll decide whether and when Lindsey Buckingham does anything for you." Lindsey's not writing any book.

He has a bitchy little manager--as do the others--who functions exactly the way mid-management functions in a big company: as a buffer, as a way of keeping the rank-and-file employees (meaning old colleagues, fans, and press) at a great distance.

Stevie, too. She has proved over and over (like yesterday on TV) that she herself is a sweet, affable person. But that is not her management, and has never been. They are little twerps whose purpose is to keep people out. Whatever the girl's name is (Karen?), she is a nobody who has been given great power to abuse people's starry-eyed love, and who very successfully buffers her boss from anyone she chooses. She is a mid-manager: she doesn't produce the product and she doesn't create the vision for the product. She's just the Human Resources woman, monitoring behavior.

Ken is just extremely frustrated with the management surrounding the group. On the one hand, I don't blame him, but on the other, he himself has been in the business so long, he ought to be used to it. He also probably had buffers around him during the Rumours years.

Exactly...

[michelej1]

If Lindsey is writing a book, he sure is really quiet about it. He could be shy or perhaps, he doesn't want the other band members to know. If he says nothing about his plans, they won't think twice when they see him sitting in a corner battering away at his Smith Corona.

Maybe it will be a collection of all of his song introductions and it will end with Sardonic World.

I'm very proud of the way he can make all of the rest of them shut up and not talk to Ken, just because he says so. Like a boss, Buck.

Michele

[michelej1]

I found Ken's change of tune regarding Chris to be rather intriguing. He was just saying less than a year ago how cold & even strange Christine has become- how he wasn't allowed in the room when her dogs were eating, stuff like that. I wonder why Christine is suddenly the saint, while the rest of the band are evil? :shrug:

Maybe Ken is wearing better looking shirts now.

Michele

[iamnotafraid]

This is a most entertaining thread.

Perhaps Ken's new relationship with Christine is
the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[iamnotafraid]

Richard said that they’ve pretty much abandoned him. He would work for Lindsey three years straight without getting a check. He just took advantage of him.

I personally witnessed Lindsey tell
him time and time again...

I'll gladly pay you on Tuesday.

[michelej1]

Lindsey was receptive to Stevie's idea to go to Paris during Unleashed. In fact, he garnered a big compliment from Stevie that he was being his "very lovely self" and said "Ok, we'll got to Paris." He had to know it was her idea since she had been adamant enough to say she was going to Paris if she had to go by herself and sing on the street corner. :laugh: She must have got him on a really good day.

Yeah, well. Paris is one thing, but you don't see a BN remaster do you? That's because both of them thinks the other wants it.:cool:

Michele

[ragrsrocalot]

So if Mick isn't in charge, who is? I hope that they make plans to do whatever they want, either with their solo things, or the group thing, But I don't like hearing that their pissed at one another, or angry. I thought Lindsey and Stevie were in a happy place, mutual admiration society again. Keep the love the music will come in time.

[vivfox]

So if Mick isn't in charge, who is?


Whose your favorite singer?:D

[BombaySapphire3]

.I thought Lindsey and Stevie were in a happy place, mutual admiration society again. Keep the love the music will come in time.
They may say that but a decades long history dictates that it won't last 15 minutes if and when they begin actively working together again.

[gldstwmn]

"Were the band members asked to participate?
I got a call back from the management, and he said, “Lindsey might write his own book, so he has asked the band not to support you and the book.”
Whomever has to edit that thing is going to have a Herculean task on their hands. :laugh:

[MrStevie]

I found Ken's change of tune regarding Chris to be rather intriguing. He was just saying less than a year ago how cold & even strange Christine has become- how he wasn't allowed in the room when her dogs were eating, stuff like that. I wonder why Christine is suddenly the saint, while the rest of the band are evil? :shrug:

I find it intriguing he says the rest of the band have basically blown him off. They don't take his calls. He can't get tickets. Then he turns around and says Stevie talked to him about making her latest album.:confused:

How did her obnoxious handlers ever let that happen?:eek:

[HomerMcvie]

So if Mick isn't in charge, who is?

Their lawyers...

Most likely, Stevie's. Face it,:mad:, they all have to bow to her wishes....

[vivfox]

I find it intriguing he says the rest of the band have basically blown him off. They don't take his calls. He can't get tickets. Then he turns around and says Stevie talked to him about making her latest album.:confused:



He was probably referring to TISL.

[CADreaming]

Yeah, well. Paris is one thing, but you don't see a BN remaster do you? That's because both of them thinks the other wants it.:cool:

Michele

Yet....

But, I don't think that's the real reason anyway.

I was a bit shocked at Richard saying Lindsey had not even talked to him about his kids. That's surprising.

[louielouie2000]

Their lawyers...

Most likely, Stevie's. Face it,:mad:, they all have to bow to her wishes....

It's kinda fitting... the band did not take her seriously one iota back in the day, but now she's the one wielding all the power. Karma's a b*tch. :nod:

[Silver Springs]

I find it intriguing he says the rest of the band have basically blown him off. They don't take his calls. He can't get tickets. Then he turns around and says Stevie talked to him about making her latest album.:confused:

How did her obnoxious handlers ever let that happen?:eek:

Didn't he only recently give Lindsey a glowing dedication at the Les Paul awards ceremony? You'd think he'd be reluctant to do so if it were as simple as he paints it. As some have said, I'm getting a lot of sour grapes. But...I like to believe that there are two sides to every story. So I'm keeping my mind firmly open...

[ButterCookie]

I found Ken's change of tune regarding Chris to be rather intriguing. He was just saying less than a year ago how cold & even strange Christine has become- how he wasn't allowed in the room when her dogs were eating, stuff like that. I wonder why Christine is suddenly the saint, while the rest of the band are evil? :shrug:

Me too. Although, no one's allowed in the room where my dog is eating ;) Probably because, by the sounds of this, she's the only one who's been a lady about it. I truthfully believe that the other three are still just behaving like children. They've been doing it for the past 30-odd years, they're not going to change now. All the while John will be either sat with his head in his hands or laughing it up on a boat somewhere. Nothing's ever going to get done properly - or, should I say, easily - while Mick, Liddy and especially Stevie are all alive/still consider themselves a part of the band because they can't function without the drama. God I love them but I couldn't live with any of them.

[HejiraNYC]

He was probably referring to TISL.

No, I think he was referring to IYD. If you recall, sometime around October of 2010, Stevie and Dave were back at the Village Recorders for a couple of weeks to lay down the drum tracks. All of the other tracks were recorded at Stevie's house, so I suspect Ken was exaggerating when he said that the entire album had to be recorded in two weeks.

One of the things that makes Fleetwood Mac interesting is the politics. They occasionally like to talk sh** about each other in the press, but at the end of the day, they circle the wagons very tightly around each other- the fab five. Fleetwood Mac the band comes first, and everyone else on the periphery of the Fleetwood Mac universe, including Ken Caillat and Judy Wong, is expendable. This explains why, after all of the years of estrangement, Christine still puts the interests of Fleetwood Mac ahead of everything else. Nobody tells Fleetwood Mac what to do. They get around to working when they want to and they make decisions democratically. Stevie, Lindsey, Christine, John and Mick know better than to upset the tenuous balance they have with each other, even to this day.

I suspect that last year, when Ken spoke so glowingly about Lindsey at the TEC awards, he was probably still optimistic that he could twist Lindsey's arm into sitting down for an interview. In a way, I'm kinda glad Lindsey refused. If Lindsey actively participated in Ken's book, I suspect it would have been a puff piece extolling the virtues of Lindsey rather than a decidedly unflattering magnifying glass onto the band, which would have made it a less interesting read. Also, Lindsey tends to recycle the same spiel over and over again in print articles, so why would this have been any different? Is there a reason to believe that Lindsey, the heavily fortified mental fortress that he is, would have offered any tantalizing new morsels of info? I suspect not. And given the sh**storm that brewed after Mick's book, I suspect everyone else would have been similarly guarded. They've all learned their lessons about loyalty and trust. "Do not break the chain" resonates more today than it ever has in the past.

[mezzoforte]

If I interpreted the response Ken got correctly, it doesn't mean "Lindsey is writing a book." It means "Take a hike, buddy. I'm his manager now and I'm not even going to pass on your request to him. I'm in power and I'll decide whether and when Lindsey Buckingham does anything for you." Lindsey's not writing any book.

He has a bitchy little manager--as do the others--who functions exactly the way mid-management functions in a big company: as a buffer, as a way of keeping the rank-and-file employees (meaning old colleagues, fans, and press) at a great distance.

Stevie, too. She has proved over and over (like yesterday on TV) that she herself is a sweet, affable person. But that is not her management, and has never been. They are little twerps whose purpose is to keep people out. Whatever the girl's name is (Karen?), she is a nobody who has been given great power to abuse people's starry-eyed love, and who very successfully buffers her boss from anyone she chooses. She is a mid-manager: she doesn't produce the product and she doesn't create the vision for the product. She's just the Human Resources woman, monitoring behavior.

Ken is just extremely frustrated with the management surrounding the group. On the one hand, I don't blame him, but on the other, he himself has been in the business so long, he ought to be used to it. He also probably had buffers around him during the Rumours years.
:rolleyes:
Stevie's not perfect, and her management is not evil.
Do you really think the five minute view we get of a woman who knows she's being filmed is completely accurate? I love Stevie, but we don't know her personally, nor do we know her management or her assistant. I'm so tired of all the Karen bashing, because we just have no idea. The people around Stevie are doing their jobs, and clearly doing them in a way that Stevie's satisfied with. That's all we need to know.

[CADreaming]

It's kinda fitting... the band did not take her seriously one iota back in the day, but now she's the one wielding all the power. Karma's a b*tch. :nod:

:lol: Good point!!

No, I think he was referring to IYD. If you recall, sometime around October of 2010, Stevie and Dave were back at the Village Recorders for a couple of weeks to lay down the drum tracks. All of the other tracks were recorded at Stevie's house, so I suspect Ken was exaggerating when he said that the entire album had to be recorded in two weeks.

Ken wasn't exaggerating. Stevie is the one prone to that...

One of the things that makes Fleetwood Mac interesting is the politics. They occasionally like to talk sh** about each other in the press, but at the end of the day, they circle the wagons very tightly around each other- the fab five. Fleetwood Mac the band comes first, and everyone else on the periphery of the Fleetwood Mac universe, including Ken Caillat and Judy Wong, is expendable. This explains why, after all of the years of estrangement, Christine still puts the interests of Fleetwood Mac ahead of everything else. Nobody tells Fleetwood Mac what to do. They get around to working when they want to and they make decisions democratically. Stevie, Lindsey, Christine, John and Mick know better than to upset the tenuous balance they have with each other, even to this day.

And given the sh**storm that brewed after Mick's book, I suspect everyone else would have been similarly guarded. They've all learned their lessons about loyalty and trust. "Do not break the chain" resonates more today than it ever has in the past.

Totally agree. When it comes down to it, they hash things out and unite.

:rolleyes:
Stevie's not perfect, and her management is not evil.
Do you really think the view we get of a person in five minutes when she knows she's being filmed is completely accurate? I love Stevie, but we don't know her personally, nor do we know her management or her assistant. I'm so tired of all the Karen bashing, because we just have no idea. The people around Stevie are doing their jobs, and clearly doing them in a way that Stevie's satisfied with. That's all we need to know.

Well, we don't know them - but we have eye witness accounts of both Stevie and Karen. Stevie may be a diva of sorts and have bad moments, but usually everyone says she had a big heart and is a sweetheart. And that Karen is a bulldog - and she is paid to be that way. I bet she's a nice enough person...

[HejiraNYC]

:lol: Good point!!


Well, we don't know them - but we have eye witness accounts of both Stevie and Karen. Stevie may be a diva of sorts and have bad moments, but usually everyone says she had a big heart and is a sweetheart. And that Karen is a bulldog - and she is paid to be that way. I bet she's a nice enough person...

Look... you can't be a personal assistant for someone like Stevie unless you are tough and fiercely protective. Stevie doesn't need another girlfriend; she needs someone who can run errands but also kick some butt when the need arises.

[CADreaming]

Look... you can't be a personal assistant for someone like Stevie unless you are tough and fiercely protective. Stevie doesn't need another girlfriend; she needs someone who can run errands but also kick some butt when the need arises.

Absolutely.

[seekerj]

I just can't stand reading anything by Ken or Keith Olsen, not even their Q&A's on this site. They both think they know everything, and for some reason, they seem to think they are stars as much as the band is.

[Silver Springs]

I just love the fact that such a negative response is being garnered in this thread...and he's a member of the site. I can see him sitting down with a cup of Tea at the computer, thinking 'Right. Let's see how mah booky wook's doing', scanning this thread and completely deflating haha. I suppose it must be like when you hear a group of people having a derogatory conversation about you, but they don't know you're there.

[MrStevie]

No, I think he was referring to IYD. If you recall, sometime around October of 2010, Stevie and Dave were back at the Village Recorders for a couple of weeks to lay down the drum tracks. All of the other tracks were recorded at Stevie's house, so I suspect Ken was exaggerating when he said that the entire album had to be recorded in two weeks.

One of the things that makes Fleetwood Mac interesting is the politics. They occasionally like to talk sh** about each other in the press, but at the end of the day, they circle the wagons very tightly around each other- the fab five. Fleetwood Mac the band comes first, and everyone else on the periphery of the Fleetwood Mac universe, including Ken Caillat and Judy Wong, is expendable. This explains why, after all of the years of estrangement, Christine still puts the interests of Fleetwood Mac ahead of everything else. Nobody tells Fleetwood Mac what to do. They get around to working when they want to and they make decisions democratically. Stevie, Lindsey, Christine, John and Mick know better than to upset the tenuous balance they have with each other, even to this day.

I suspect that last year, when Ken spoke so glowingly about Lindsey at the TEC awards, he was probably still optimistic that he could twist Lindsey's arm into sitting down for an interview. In a way, I'm kinda glad Lindsey refused. If Lindsey actively participated in Ken's book, I suspect it would have been a puff piece extolling the virtues of Lindsey rather than a decidedly unflattering magnifying glass onto the band, which would have made it a less interesting read. Also, Lindsey tends to recycle the same spiel over and over again in print articles, so why would this have been any different? Is there a reason to believe that Lindsey, the heavily fortified mental fortress that he is, would have offered any tantalizing new morsels of info? I suspect not. And given the sh**storm that brewed after Mick's book, I suspect everyone else would have been similarly guarded. They've all learned their lessons about loyalty and trust. "Do not break the chain" resonates more today than it ever has in the past.

Thanks for this intelligent post! :thumbsup:

[holidayroad]

Yes, but that duty has to end at some point. When was Judy last even involved with FM?

TITN was dedicated to her. She was thanked in the liner notes of BTM. That is the last mention I noticed.

[CADreaming]

"When the last insult comes down from your friends. Hoping all your blind ambition will fall. And the love you know has come to an end. And the silence answers your call ..."

[poetinmyheart]

Whomever has to edit that thing is going to have a Herculean task on their hands. :laugh:

Haha yes, can you imagine! :lol:

[MrStevie]

I just love the fact that such a negative response is being garnered in this thread...and he's a member of the site. I can see him sitting down with a cup of Tea at the computer, thinking 'Right. Let's see how mah booky wook's doing', scanning this thread and completely deflating haha. I suppose it must be like when you hear a group of people having a derogatory conversation about you, but they don't know you're there.

I doesn't hurt for Ken to know what fans are thinking. I mean, who does he think his audience is? Is he selling books only to sound geeks and musicians? If he's peddling to the masses he should know some fans won't appreciate the way he cherry picks personal anecdotes in a way that taints his credibility. As a sound geek and musician I really wanted to buy the book before I read this intervew. I thought Ken was writing a serious book about the recording of Rumors, not the same old canned dirt we've read about in previous Mac tell alls. How is a card game in Tahoe relevant to recording Rumors other than finding a way to inject dirt that the publishers wanted in the mix? Didn't I read Ken refused to do that before the manuscript was rejected? Now this? The way the question was asked and answered, I'm not sure Ken said the blackjack incident was in the book or not, but the fact that he tossed that anecdote into the interview tells me he's on board with the standard FM marketing plan. Am I surprised he's dished the standard dirt using the same time tested script assured to only offend a marginal part of the fan base? Not really. But based on his own words before the book was rejected, I guess I expected more than that from Ken. I'm seriously disappionted. On the other hand, the masses will love it! Ken hasn't drifted very far off the reservation with his stereotypes of the band members. So far I haven't read anything new or enlightening. Nothing I didn't know before. Major bummer. :sorry:

[MrStevie]

"When the last insult comes down from your friends. Hoping all your blind ambition will fall. And the love you know has come to an end. And the silence answers your call ..."

PERFECT! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Silver Springs]

I doesn't hurt for Ken to know what fans are thinking. I mean, who does he think his audience is? Is he selling books only to sound geeks and musicians? If he's peddling to the masses he should know some fans won't appreciate the way he cherry picks personal anecdotes in a way that taints his credibility. As a sound geek and musician I really wanted to buy the book before I read this intervew. I thought Ken was writing a serious book about the recording of Rumors, not the same old canned dirt we've read about in previous Mac tell alls. How is a card game in Tahoe relevant to recording Rumors other than finding a way to inject dirt that the publishers wanted in the mix? Didn't I read Ken refused to do that before the manuscript was rejected? Now this? The way the question was asked and answered, I'm not sure Ken said the blackjack incident was in the book or not, but the fact that he tossed that anecdote into the interview tells me he's on board with the standard FM marketing plan. Am I surprised he's dished the standard dirt using the same time tested script assured to only offend a marginal part of the fan base? Not really. But based on his own words before the book was rejected, I guess I expected more than that from Ken. I'm seriously disappionted. On the other hand, the masses will love it! Ken hasn't drifted very far off the reservation with his stereotypes of the band members. So far I haven't read anything new or enlightening. Nothing I didn't know before. Major bummer. :sorry:

It's refreshing when I read of people actually noticing that there is a formula with every Fleetwood Mac dish we're served. Each book, no matter who the 'disher', is little more than timetabled gossip that wouldn't be out of place in a magazine. I never had any ambition to buy the book, because I knew what to expect. It's the same reason I stopped reading Mick's book when I bought it (for 50 pence, I feel I need to interject with) and didn't even bother cracking open Carol Ann's little serving. I'd love to hear even a collaborated effort, rather than one sided stories that could easily be refuted if another member could be bothered (or indeed find the financial incentive) to do so. I'd much rather hear about the music, the different routes the could have taken with the work, the struggles they've encountered in marketing and acquiring interest in order to sell their creations. Even the little myths and legends behind the lyrics. Not literary tit for tat. I just wish John would write a book on the Fleetwood Mac history, because given his stoic nature it could be exactly the route he chooses to take. After all, you never hear of him releasing these little tales and chinese whispers, do you? It's obvious with him that his unwavering passion is the music, not the band politics.

[turquoise5]

As much as I can't wait to read Ken's book, and respect Ken, I don't think it's fair for the band to be expected to take care of former employees, decades after employment ended. Just because they have the money, doesn't mean it's their money, too!

I hope that Ray really didn't work for 3 years without a check! Now, if that's true, they should at least make that right.

I wasn't aware that Ray was no longer with them...does anyone know what happened???

Agreed. Employments end, friendships don't always last forever.
I certainly don't keep in touch with all my friends from 30-35 years ago. People's lives go in different directions. As far as former employers, why would I expect anything from them? I think it's up to each person to build on their past employment to further their careers (as Ken, to his credit, seems to have done; he certainly has worked with a lot of artists!).

[Macfanforever]

Wow. I don't know if the party is over for Fleetwood Mac.But I hope not.Time will tell.Shocking to hear about Judy Wong.How sad.

[poetinmyheart]

It's refreshing when I read of people actually noticing that there is a formula with every Fleetwood Mac dish we're served. Each book, no matter who the 'disher', is little more than timetabled gossip that wouldn't be out of place in a magazine. I never had any ambition to buy the book, because I knew what to expect. It's the same reason I stopped reading Mick's book when I bought it (for 50 pence, I feel I need to interject with) and didn't even bother cracking open Carol Ann's little serving. I'd love to hear even a collaborated effort, rather than one sided stories that could easily be refuted if another member could be bothered (or indeed find the financial incentive) to do so. I'd much rather hear about the music, the different routes the could have taken with the work, the struggles they've encountered in marketing and acquiring interest in order to sell their creations. Even the little myths and legends behind the lyrics. Not literary tit for tat. I just wish John would write a book on the Fleetwood Mac history, because given his stoic nature it could be exactly the route he chooses to take. After all, you never hear of him releasing these little tales and chinese whispers, do you? It's obvious with him that his unwavering passion is the music, not the band politics.

Agreed. I would be very interested to read a book written by John.

[gldstwmn]

I just love the fact that such a negative response is being garnered in this thread...and he's a member of the site. I can see him sitting down with a cup of Tea at the computer, thinking 'Right. Let's see how mah booky wook's doing', scanning this thread and completely deflating haha. I suppose it must be like when you hear a group of people having a derogatory conversation about you, but they don't know you're there.

If he could handle Fleetwood Mac, he could handle this place. :laugh:

[ironman_01701]

Sad :(
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s379/ironman_01701/Through%20out%20the%20years/ChrisSteviechain2.jpg

[Sleepless-Child]

:rolleyes:
Stevie's not perfect, and her management is not evil.
Do you really think the five minute view we get of a woman who knows she's being filmed is completely accurate? I love Stevie, but we don't know her personally, nor do we know her management or her assistant. I'm so tired of all the Karen bashing, because we just have no idea. The people around Stevie are doing their jobs, and clearly doing them in a way that Stevie's satisfied with. That's all we need to know.

Totally agreed. I really don't know if Stevie's such a sweetheart. I mean i love her, but i tend to think that when you achieve that kind of success, you have to make bad choices at times. And same goes for Lindsey. Reading what Ken has to say, though Lindsey might be quiet, i think he is as responsible for the state of FM right now as Stevie. Everything about this, and what Mick said few days ago, is very childish. I like to remember this bit in the Destiny Rules doc where Stevie's all like "these people have issues, they are not going to care about who is on top of billboard", or something...they are so egocentric, it's scary at times.
And Karen...well it's just Karen. I'm not sure she's the boss, you know.

Sad :(
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s379/ironman_01701/Through%20out%20the%20years/ChrisSteviechain2.jpg

Naaah, never will be. That's what memories are for.
I miss Christine.

Damn all of this sounds so political, i hate it. I bet they are back on the road next year or in 2014 anyway...

[Jondalar]

I cannot wait to read this book. He has a very different perspective on things.

[Johnny Stew]

:rolleyes:
Stevie's not perfect, and her management is not evil.
Do you really think the five minute view we get of a woman who knows she's being filmed is completely accurate? I love Stevie, but we don't know her personally, nor do we know her management or her assistant.

David didn't say Stevie's "perfect." He said she's sweet & affable, and by all accounts (journalists, industry insiders, other artists, fans), that's an accurate description. But, yes, artists employ people, like Karen, who aren't afraid to say "no" or turn people away. Often, it's for their own protection. Not every one has the best of intentions -- even past collaborators and/or one-time friends.

It's interesting to hear Ken grousing about the walls that have built up around the band members. With his daughter's fame steadily increasing, I'm sure the protective walls are building around her as we speak.

[Jondalar]

I'm not enjoying the Lindsey Buckingham vibes. This is the first time I heard him criticized by a colleage outside Fleetwood Mac. Sounds like Lindsey is a complete narcissist. Mick and Stevie seem to be the vocals one and Christine and John just go along. Yet, Christine has put Stevie in her place before. Strange dynamics. Battle of the Dragons :)

[MacShadowsBall]

Everybody here should know that I adore Christine McVie :xoxo: Love her style and her songs and I understand her leaving the band back in 1998 and wanting to move on in her life and "settle down" if you will.

What I don't understand is the whole "I don't want to go against the band" line that she said/implied to Ken. Christine, dear, you left "the band" 13 years ago! That just really confuses me. :confused: Current band members or people still affiliated w/FM I can understand feeling that way. However Christine left all those years ago and to our understanding hasn't given FM any thought.

I guess the real question is "What is Christine's current status/feelings with Fleetwood Mac"? :shrug:

[Blueletter18]

I'm so excited to read this book too- I preordered it a while back on Amazon, and I was ecstatic to get a notice via email today that the release date was moved up, so I'll be receiving it 10 days earlier than expected! School work may just have to be put on hold for a couple days...

[MikeInNV]

Most likely, Stevie's. Face it,:mad:, they all have to bow to her wishes....

I don't see it that way. You may not want Stevie in the band, but they do. There are pros and cons to having her in the band, but Mick has decided what is important to him and made his decision accordingly.

[SteveMacD]

There are pros [money] and cons [less chances to make money] to having her in the band, but Mick has decided what is important to him [sh*t load of money] and made his decision accordingly.

FIXED version.

[jbrownsjr]

Everybody here should know that I adore Christine McVie :xoxo: Love her style and her songs and I understand her leaving the band back in 1998 and wanting to move on in her life and "settle down" if you will.

What I don't understand is the whole "I don't want to go against the band" line that she said/implied to Ken. Christine, dear, you left "the band" 13 years ago! That just really confuses me. :confused: Current band members or people still affiliated w/FM I can understand feeling that way. However Christine left all those years ago and to our understanding hasn't given FM any thought.

I guess the real question is "What is Christine's current status/feelings with Fleetwood Mac"? :shrug:

My guess is she doesn't want to stir the FMac pot because she is peacefully living in England. Makes no sense for her to cause any flak they may come back to disturb her peace.

[michelej1]

One of the things that makes Fleetwood Mac interesting is the politics. They occasionally like to talk sh** about each other in the press, but at the end of the day, they circle the wagons very tightly around each other- the fab five. Fleetwood Mac the band comes first, and everyone else on the periphery of the Fleetwood Mac universe, including Ken Caillat and Judy Wong, is expendable.

This is true and Mick has said it. He says the spouses and the significant others have to understand that they will never be inside the circle of five, no matter how close they get to the individual members. Only the five of them know what they have been through and only they understand each other. You can't penetrate it and it's a bond that goes way beyond the-feud-of-the-week.

For all the names we know: Dunstan, Wong, Keith, Ken, Richard, etc. there are 50 or 100 people whose names we don't know who were just as vital to the band's success and well being. Due to the magnitutde of their record sales and the number of people in the band, the people who helped make them who they are are almost countless. They can't have a lasting, personal relationship with each and every one of them.

Even in our own non-mega superstar lives, sometimes to maintain a strong relationship with those we treasure most, we have to let other people go as time passes. It's not that these people are nothing more than hangers on, it's just that they aren't family any longer. They don't live inside the FM world anymore. For some people to be cut off sounds cruel, but we don't know how many people try to contact them on a daily basis, all wanting something.

As for Judy Wong being toothless, that's awful. But then again sometimes there are people who you help out 20 times and the 21st time, you just have to say no. I'm not saying that Judy is one of these people. I'm just saying that Mick can barely keep his own life and finances together after all of this time. If he ended up bankrupt again, I'm not sure any of the Macsters would let him sleep in their basement and I'm not sure I would blame them, given the chances that he has had.

Well, Mick's not going bankrupt, but I'm just saying I'm not surprised he couldn't take better care of Judy. He's still not that good at taking care of himself. We just ought to be glad that Biddy's still protected.

Michele

[Jondalar]

This is true and Mick has said it. He says the spouses and the significant others have to understand that they will never be inside the circle of five, no matter how close they get to the individual members. Only the five of them know what they have been through and only they understand each other. You can't penetrate it and it's a bond that goes way beyond the-feud-of-the-week.

For all the names we know: Dunstan, Wong, Keith, Ken, Richard, etc. there are 50 or 100 people whose names we don't know who were just as vital to the band's success and well being. Due to the magnitutde of their record sales and the number of people in the band, the people who helped make them who they are are almost countless. They can't have a lasting, personal relationship with each and every one of them.

Even in our own non-mega superstar lives, sometimes to maintain a strong relationship with those we treasure most, we have to let other people go as time passes. It's not that these people are nothing more than hangers on, it's just that they aren't family any longer. They don't live inside the FM world anymore. For some people to be cut off sounds cruel, but we don't know how many people try to contact them on a daily basis, all wanting something.

As for Judy Wong being toothless, that's awful. But then again sometimes there are people who you help out 20 times and the 21st time, you just have to say no. I'm not saying that Judy is one of these people. I'm just saying that Mick can barely keep his own life and finances together after all of this time. If he ended up bankrupt again, I'm not sure any of the Macsters would let him sleep in their basement and I'm not sure I would blame them, given the chances that he has had.

Well, Mick's not going bankrupt, but I'm just saying I'm not surprised he couldn't take better care of Judy. He's still not that good at taking care of himself. We just ought to be glad that Biddy's still protected.

Michele

Wong, dong, schlong. The whole thing reaks to me.

[MrStevie]

Wong, dong, schlong. The whole thing reaks to me.

Fame reeks! :] The music business reeks to high heaven! :p

Everybody wants a piece! :nod:

:wavey:

[michelej1]

I was a bit shocked at Richard saying Lindsey had not even talked to him about his kids. That's surprising.

Yeah, it is rather surprising since in 2003 Ken told Mojo magazine that Lindsey told him that feeling Will's little hand grab his finger caused him to just get fatherhood, when he hadn't before. So, Lindsey has talked to Ken about his children at least once.

I didn't know that Ray worked for Conan. I wonder if that has helped Lindsey get a spot on the show. Heaven knows he hasn't been on Letterman.

Michele

[aleuzzi]

Maybe Ken is wearing better looking shirts now.

Michele

Bravo! Best comment on the thread yet!

[dnightshade]

Wow. Some of these comments are pretty intense. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but really, things are not always as they seem. And people are a lot more complex than what is written about them, or what another artist may say about them, or even what they say about themselves. I guess the thing to remember is that these are mere mortals, with issues and short-comings like everyone else.

As for the watchdogs, everyone has their buffers who protect them, whether it's friends, family, teachers, etc. The real difference here is that these people are paid to keep the distance, and they have a lot more to concern themselves with than the average person. And a lot more at stake if they don't.

And finally, it's unfortunate that some people throughout their lives continue to battle drug and alcohol addiction, as well as mental illness. Often they do not want help, or are unable to understand that something should be done in their best interest. So despite how much you might want to help them, or how many attempts have been made, sometimes you just can't save someone, as heartbreaking as that is.

[CADreaming]

But then again sometimes there are people who you help out 20 times and the 21st time, you just have to say no. I'm not saying that Judy is one of these people. I'm just saying that Mick can barely keep his own life and finances together after all of this time. If he ended up bankrupt again, I'm not sure any of the Macsters would let him sleep in their basement and I'm not sure I would blame them, given the chances that he has had.


Michele

Really, I totally agree. And, if Ken thought it was so awful about Judy, why didn't he help her? I mean, it's easy to sit back and say so and so didn't lift a finger, but meanwhile what can you do to help instead of passing judgment on someone else?

[BrownEyedGirl26]

I'm not enjoying the Lindsey Buckingham vibes. This is the first time I heard him criticized by a colleage outside Fleetwood Mac. Sounds like Lindsey is a complete narcissist. Mick and Stevie seem to be the vocals one and Christine and John just go along. Yet, Christine has put Stevie in her place before. Strange dynamics. Battle of the Dragons :)

Jondalar, when exactly was it that "Christine put Stevie in her place"?

[egg cream]

Ken is just extremely frustrated with the management surrounding the group. On the one hand, I don't blame him, but on the other, he himself has been in the business so long, he ought to be used to it. He also probably had buffers around him during the Rumours years.

Honestly, it sounds like he's less upset that there are buffers around the group and more upset that he's no longer one of the ones within the buffers. I'm sure it hurts - he used to be a part of their inner circle, he was there for some intimate stuff, he went through what most would probably consider a life-changing experience with them. And I definitely don't disagree that all their inner circle / outer circle, "never break the chain," "the band is the only thing that matters" bull**** is childish - and allows them to both manipulate the people close to them into being incredibly loyal while they're on the inside, and then abandon those people without feeling guilt as soon as they don't need them for the band anymore. This band is a bunch of babies drunk on their own diminishing power, it's cool, I can believe that.

But expecting people you knew 30 years ago to still be as close as you felt they were 30 years ago? Naw, dude. And expecting people who employed you 30 years ago to still take care of you financially? Double naw. You were perfectly happy with the situation back when you were part of their entourage, you just don't like it now because you're not a part of it anymore. And you're not some friend from back home that they abandoned when they hit the big time, you weren't a kid when it happened, you were a grown man and you're a part of the music business - you had the opportunity to get yours. (Also, that thing about Richard Dashut working for three years without a check is just weird to me. Why would he keep working for him? As someone who works freelance in a creative field...it doesn't matter how good a friend you think someone is, you don't get a paycheck from them, you don't work for them anymore. You learn that quick, so if Richard really worked for Lindsey for no money, that's crappy on Lindsey's part but that's ultimately Richard's fault.)

Agreed. Employments end, friendships don't always last forever.
I certainly don't keep in touch with all my friends from 30-35 years ago. People's lives go in different directions. As far as former employers, why would I expect anything from them? I think it's up to each person to build on their past employment to further their careers (as Ken, to his credit, seems to have done; he certainly has worked with a lot of artists!).

Also, how many of them have been to rehab? Isn't one of the big rules of staying sober that you don't go back to hanging out with the people you did drugs with? Who in their right mind would be like, "Welp, I'm finally off coke! I guess I'll go find my old friends and talk about all the times we did coke!"

ETA: Okay, just read the entire interview and I don't think it's as "scathing" as the original post made it sound...that thing where he says "I may sound wacko, but living through something like that and being a part of a thing, you feel like you’re family, and you’re not a family. Fleetwood Mac was not generous “parents.” They’re pretty selfish; so many people that were part of the family have since been discarded. It’s sad. But, there is no responsibility from the band even though we were so close." I think he basically gets that the way they felt back then wasn't reality, and he's just remarking on what a bummer it is that things have changed. (Richard working for Lindsey without a paycheck is still d-u-m dumb, though.)

[Johnny Stew]

After watching the 'Destiny Rules' documentary and reading 'Say You Will'-era interviews (Lindsey wanted Mark Needham, Lindsey got Mark Needham. Lindsey wanted the heavier songs up front in the album's running order, Lindsey got the heavier songs up front. Lindsey wanted a double-album, Lindsey got a double-length album. Lindsey wanted to tour for two years, Lindsey got a two-year tour), and then reading this interview with Ken (Lindsey/Lindsey's management discouraged anyone in the band from participating. Lindsey's management shot down the use of audio outtakes for the e-book.), it's interesting that so many fans feel that Stevie calls the shots in Fleetwood Mac.

I'm not saying that she never throws her weight around -- I just tend to think, from all the evidence, that she's not the one who holds all the cards.

[michelej1]

I'm not saying that she never throws her weight around -- I just tend to think, from all the evidence, that she's not the one who holds all the cards.

Well, Stevie, having been forced to wear a granny sweater for 2 years and forbidden from taking the mic off the stand, certainly never gives the impression that she holds cards or knows how to play them.

Michele

[Johnny Stew]

Well, Stevie, having been forced to wear a granny sweater for 2 years and forbidden from taking the mic off the stand, certainly never gives the impression that she holds cards or knows how to play them.

:laugh: Yeah, Stevie's also a drama-queen who's gonna ring every last bit of pathos out of a story. A Bronté heroine till the bitter end. ;)

In all seriousness, I've sometimes wondered if those stories -- and the digs at Lindsey in the press -- are the only ways she feels she can get his attention. ("Ok, if you're going to ignore me in band meetings, I'm going to tell People magazine that you're the Ayatollah of a rock'n'rollah.")

[David]

This band is a bunch of babies drunk on their own diminishing power, it's cool, I can believe that.Les mots justes.

But expecting people you knew 30 years ago to still be as close as you felt they were 30 years ago? Naw, dude. And expecting people who employed you 30 years ago to still take care of you financially? Double naw.But egg cream, when people get older, they grow nostalgic. They also sometimes become Gatsbys and reach back to the past, trying to make it live again as if nothing had changed. It almost never works, as everyone learns sooner or later.

I'm just not sure Ken wants to be friends with all of them again. (He may even think they're all varying degrees of toxic in person.) I think he just wants them to answer his e-mail when he has a business idea. That's why I wrote what I did about all their various managers and personal assistants, and why I reiterate that those people serve exactly the same function as the mid-managers in the workplace. It's those people--those twits "doing their jobs"--who obstruct the attempts to hook up. Those people--Karen and whatnot--don't even know who he is and don't know that he engineered the albums that ultimately resulted in their own jobs. When I hear ledgies complain about how Stevie or the band never releases a batch of demos or concerts or any of the other ideas that get floated by fans or guys like Ken, and then defend the job that Karen and all the others do, I groan in frustration. Don't you guys realize that all that stuff you want probably never gets released because the personal-assistant/manager never let word of all the demand for it reach the boss?! By the way, there's a company that now owns the footage of the 1982 US Festival and is actively scouting for licensing opportunities. Do you think the Fleetwood Mac managers will ever let their bosses know that there's any demand for this? You get three guesses. :rolleyes:

Sometimes the band itself apparently does answer Ken's e-mail. He brought up two examples in his interview (the TV shows about "Rumours"), but he also managed not too long ago to get them to listen to and approve the 5.1 DVD-Audio of "Rumours." So I conclude that when the business proposition appeals to them, they call. As we've all seen, they just don't seem to be interested in marketing their past in a way that's different from rereleasing "Rumours" in some way. They're not interested in live albums from long ago (about 15 years ago, Ken asked the ledgies to compile a list of old concert video and other footage in order to get something pulled together for sale, but that fizzled) or old demos and documentaries. They don't seem to be much interested in books, either.

Wouldn't it be funny if they ever needed his help with marketing their past or their old albums--and he didn't bother answering the e-mail?

[michelej1]

By the way, there's a company that now owns the footage of the 1982 US Festival and is actively scouting for licensing opportunities. Do you think the Fleetwood Mac managers will ever let their bosses know that there's any demand for this? You get three guesses. :rolleyes:



Exciting to think about that US Festival. Wonder if it would help to get Steve Wozniak involved. He has a lot of time on his hands these days.

Michele

[michelej1]

In all seriousness, I've sometimes wondered if those stories -- and the digs at Lindsey in the press -- are the only ways she feels she can get his attention. ("Ok, if you're going to ignore me in band meetings, I'm going to tell People magazine that you're the Ayatollah of a rock'n'rollah.")

Yes, they're all very cute. Lindsey did the same thing when he told the interviewers that Stevie never thanked him for SYW and, of course, Mick's Playboy interview was more for Stevie than for Hugh Hefner.

Michele

[MikeInNV]

That's why I wrote what I did about all their various managers and personal assistants, and why I reiterate that those people serve exactly the same function as the mid-managers in the workplace. It's those people--those twits "doing their jobs"--who obstruct the attempts to hook up. Those people--Karen and whatnot--don't even know who he is and don't know that he engineered the albums that ultimately resulted in their own jobs. When I hear ledgies complain about how Stevie or the band never releases a batch of demos or concerts or any of the other ideas that get floated by fans or guys like Ken, and then defend the job that Karen and all the others do, I groan in frustration. Don't you guys realize that all that stuff you want probably never gets released because the personal-assistant/manager never let word of all the demand for it reach the boss?!

Why would personal assistants feel the need to keep from passing those ideas on? I can see them serving as a screen if "the talent" didn't want to speak directly with "the crew" but if I were Karen I would be afraid to keep things from Stevie, especially business propositions about which I wasn't particularly savvy. What if Stevie later discovered she missed out on what she thought was a fantastic opportunity because someone in her cadre decided she didn't need to know?

[SteveMacD]

Why would personal assistants feel the need to keep from passing those ideas on? I can see them serving as a screen if "the talent" didn't want to speak directly with "the crew" but if I were Karen I would be afraid to keep things from Stevie, especially business propositions about which I wasn't particularly savvy. What if Stevie later discovered she missed out on what she thought was a fantastic opportunity because someone in her cadre decided she didn't need to know?
Oddly enough, I may have to side with Karen on this as a general rule. People who are assistants get a lot of suggestions and propositions. I know I've gotten a lot for GbV, and they're an indie band. I can't imagine what somebody like Stevie or Fleetwood Mac get. While I may personally think the suggestion or proposal is an amazing opportunity, I know that the ultimate answer is usually going to be "no". Many artists just don't care about (re)releasing old things. They may personally enjoy watching the old footage themselves, and may even understand the demand, but ultimately don't want to deal with all the hassles that go along with it.

[CADreaming]

Well, Stevie, having been forced to wear a granny sweater for 2 years and forbidden from taking the mic off the stand, certainly never gives the impression that she holds cards or knows how to play them.

Michele

Yeah, Mama definitely knows when to hold 'em and knows when to fold 'em. :laugh:

[michelej1]

Yeah, Mama definitely knows when to hold 'em and knows when to fold 'em. :laugh:

Which is why SYW ended up not being a double album, for example.

Michele

[Bryan]

Lindsey's a cu** a diva & a misogynist,end of.
lmao.

[Silver Springs]

Lindsey's a cu** a diva & a misogynist,end of.
lmao.

What an eloquent, thought provoking argument you have there. Is it available stitched onto a pillow?

[Macfanforever]

Lindsey's a cu** a diva & a misogynist,end of.
lmao.

Ouch

Yeah, Mama definitely knows when to hold 'em and knows when to fold 'em. :laugh:

Hum.It sounds like a Kenny Roger's tune.

Exciting to think about that US Festival. Wonder if it would help to get Steve Wozniak involved. He has a lot of time on his hands these days.

Michele

Thats a good question.Why sit on it.They could make a killing on sales.
The same goes for all the other Stevie/FM content that never got the DVD treatment.Why sit on it.

[egg cream]

That's why I wrote what I did about all their various managers and personal assistants, and why I reiterate that those people serve exactly the same function as the mid-managers in the workplace. It's those people--those twits "doing their jobs"--who obstruct the attempts to hook up. Those people--Karen and whatnot--don't even know who he is and don't know that he engineered the albums that ultimately resulted in their own jobs. When I hear ledgies complain about how Stevie or the band never releases a batch of demos or concerts or any of the other ideas that get floated by fans or guys like Ken, and then defend the job that Karen and all the others do, I groan in frustration. Don't you guys realize that all that stuff you want probably never gets released because the personal-assistant/manager never let word of all the demand for it reach the boss?! By the way, there's a company that now owns the footage of the 1982 US Festival and is actively scouting for licensing opportunities. Do you think the Fleetwood Mac managers will ever let their bosses know that there's any demand for this? You get three guesses. :rolleyes:

Sometimes the band itself apparently does answer Ken's e-mail. He brought up two examples in his interview (the TV shows about "Rumours"), but he also managed not too long ago to get them to listen to and approve the 5.1 DVD-Audio of "Rumours." So I conclude that when the business proposition appeals to them, they call.

Exactly. If we were in Vegas, I would bet that any idea with the potential to make the band money gets passed along. It's not that the band is being held back by managers and assistants who are dumb middle-management types that can't see a good opportunity if it smacks them in the face - it's that Ken's book isn't a good opportunity. Is the band going to make any money off a book spilling the behind-the-scenes secrets of the making of Rumours (again, some more) that probably won't even help the album shift a few copies? Nooooope. So is the band going to care? Nooooope.

BTW, are you Oberman from AMFM / RMASN?

[David]

BTW, are you Oberman from AMFM / RMASN?
Yep.

Is this Ginny?

[egg cream]

Yep.

Is this Ginny?

Hiiiiii.

Nia.

(I was up in here under another screen name a few weeks ago too, but I forgot the password, plus people know me by it elsewhere.)

[NoLight77]

After watching the 'Destiny Rules' documentary and reading 'Say You Will'-era interviews (Lindsey wanted Mark Needham, Lindsey got Mark Needham. Lindsey wanted the heavier songs up front in the album's running order, Lindsey got the heavier songs up front. Lindsey wanted a double-album, Lindsey got a double-length album. Lindsey wanted to tour for two years, Lindsey got a two-year tour), and then reading this interview with Ken (Lindsey/Lindsey's management discouraged anyone in the band from participating. Lindsey's management shot down the use of audio outtakes for the e-book.), it's interesting that so many fans feel that Stevie calls the shots in Fleetwood Mac.

I'm not saying that she never throws her weight around -- I just tend to think, from all the evidence, that she's not the one who holds all the cards.




Thank you! I agree.

[iamnotafraid]

I'm not saying that Stevie never throws her weight around...


There's got to be a joke in there somewhere.

[Jondalar]

Jondalar, when exactly was it that "Christine put Stevie in her place"?

During tango in the night when stevie was complaining, chris told her off

[APerfectLie]

After watching the 'Destiny Rules' documentary and reading 'Say You Will'-era interviews (Lindsey wanted Mark Needham, Lindsey got Mark Needham. Lindsey wanted the heavier songs up front in the album's running order, Lindsey got the heavier songs up front. Lindsey wanted a double-album, Lindsey got a double-length album. Lindsey wanted to tour for two years, Lindsey got a two-year tour), and then reading this interview with Ken (Lindsey/Lindsey's management discouraged anyone in the band from participating. Lindsey's management shot down the use of audio outtakes for the e-book.), it's interesting that so many fans feel that Stevie calls the shots in Fleetwood Mac.

I'm not saying that she never throws her weight around -- I just tend to think, from all the evidence, that she's not the one who holds all the cards.

I think Stevie clearly holds most of the cards, but at the end of the day, Lindsey was the producer. Once Stevie commits to an album, they've got to do something, so she lets Linds get what he wants so he doesn't turn her songs into ****/take all her backing vocals off his songs/throw guitars at her/kick her onstage. I think that is why she isn't doing anything now, because she likes being in control and knowing Fleetwood Mac is stuck waiting on her. It is much easier to be stubborn when your stubbornness results in nothing rather than resulting in ****ty work. Also, I don't think she likes to be the shot caller in FM. Sure she has no problem NOT doing a new album or tour, but when it comes to making decisions as to what to actually do when they are doing something, she lets Lindsey make those decisions, that way it is his fault if things don't work. Oh SYW wasn't sequenced right? Lindsey's fault! Oh SYW was too long? Lindsey's fault! Oh my song didn't sound good that way? Lindsey's fault!

[Sara Fleetwood]

If I interpreted the response Ken got correctly, it doesn't mean "Lindsey is writing a book." It means "Take a hike, buddy. I'm his manager now and I'm not even going to pass on your request to him. I'm in power and I'll decide whether and when Lindsey Buckingham does anything for you." Lindsey's not writing any book.

He has a bitchy little manager--as do the others--who functions exactly the way mid-management functions in a big company: as a buffer, as a way of keeping the rank-and-file employees (meaning old colleagues, fans, and press) at a great distance.

Stevie, too. She has proved over and over (like yesterday on TV) that she herself is a sweet, affable person. But that is not her management, and has never been. They are little twerps whose purpose is to keep people out. Whatever the girl's name is (Karen?), she is a nobody who has been given great power to abuse people's starry-eyed love, and who very successfully buffers her boss from anyone she chooses. She is a mid-manager: she doesn't produce the product and she doesn't create the vision for the product. She's just the Human Resources woman, monitoring behavior.

Ken is just extremely frustrated with the management surrounding the group. On the one hand, I don't blame him, but on the other, he himself has been in the business so long, he ought to be used to it. He also probably had buffers around him during the Rumours years.

Couldn't agree more. For time immemorial said "buffers" aka "NO TALENT ASS CLOWNS" of apathetic avarice have preyed on the vulnerability of the artist. Throughout the years I have sadly witnessed these creatively vapid misanthropes. In a voracious pursuit of self serving exploitation, "NO TALENT ASS CLOWNS" systematically and indifferently sabotage family relations and friendships, compromise and or manipulate any or all creative control, and choose who is allowed to speak to his or her "product". This decision is based solely on the potential for economic gain and waxes and wains accordingly. Now, if the artist is aware of what is happening... "Who Is The Beauty, Who Is The Beast?" Hey!:D I'm just sayin'?

[gldstwmn]

Couldn't agree more. For time immemorial said "buffers" aka "NO TALENT ASS CLOWNS" of apathetic avarice have preyed on the vulnerability of the artist. Throughout the years I have sadly witnessed these creatively vapid misanthropes. In a voracious pursuit of self serving exploitation, "NO TALENT ASS CLOWNS" systematically and indifferently sabotage family relations and friendships, compromise and or manipulate any or all creative control, and choose who is allowed to speak to his or her "product". This decision is based solely on the potential for economic gain and waxes and wains accordingly. Now, if the artist is aware of what is happening... "Who Is The Beauty, Who Is The Beast?" Hey!:D I'm just sayin'?

Haha...word. :thumbsup:

[gldstwmn]

Everybody here should know that I adore Christine McVie :xoxo: Love her style and her songs and I understand her leaving the band back in 1998 and wanting to move on in her life and "settle down" if you will.

What I don't understand is the whole "I don't want to go against the band" line that she said/implied to Ken. Christine, dear, you left "the band" 13 years ago! That just really confuses me. :confused: Current band members or people still affiliated w/FM I can understand feeling that way. However Christine left all those years ago and to our understanding hasn't given FM any thought.

I guess the real question is "What is Christine's current status/feelings with Fleetwood Mac"? :shrug:

Christine stopped touring with Fleetwood Mac. She was willing to work in the studio with them on their last album but Mick told her no. Big mistake. I have to wonder if that was his decision or if he was just the messenger on that one. :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

Well, Mick's not going bankrupt, but I'm just saying I'm not surprised he couldn't take better care of Judy. He's still not that good at taking care of himself. We just ought to be glad that Biddy's still protected.

Michele

I don't get the impression he's broke, just not very liquid right now.

[gldstwmn]

Yeah, it is rather surprising since in 2003 Ken told Mojo magazine that Lindsey told him that feeling Will's little hand grab his finger caused him to just get fatherhood, when he hadn't before. So, Lindsey has talked to Ken about his children at least once.

I didn't know that Ray worked for Conan. I wonder if that has helped Lindsey get a spot on the show. Heaven knows he hasn't been on Letterman.

Michele

Not without Stevie. ;) :lol:

[gldstwmn]

Really, I totally agree. And, if Ken thought it was so awful about Judy, why didn't he help her? I mean, it's easy to sit back and say so and so didn't lift a finger, but meanwhile what can you do to help instead of passing judgment on someone else?

We don't know that he didn't.

[MrStevie]

Not without Stevie. ;) :lol:

Twice in the 90s he was on Letterman without Stevie.

[MrStevie]

We don't know that he didn't.

I guess he didn't know any dentists.:shrug:

[gldstwmn]

After watching the 'Destiny Rules' documentary and reading 'Say You Will'-era interviews (Lindsey wanted Mark Needham, Lindsey got Mark Needham. Lindsey wanted the heavier songs up front in the album's running order, Lindsey got the heavier songs up front. Lindsey wanted a double-album, Lindsey got a double-length album. Lindsey wanted to tour for two years, Lindsey got a two-year tour), and then reading this interview with Ken (Lindsey/Lindsey's management discouraged anyone in the band from participating. Lindsey's management shot down the use of audio outtakes for the e-book.), it's interesting that so many fans feel that Stevie calls the shots in Fleetwood Mac.

I'm not saying that she never throws her weight around -- I just tend to think, from all the evidence, that she's not the one who holds all the cards.

I just keep coming back to that scene in the Destiny Rules documentary where Lindsey threatens to abscond with the masters like a petulant child.

[MrStevie]

I just keep coming back to that scene in the Destiny Rules documentary where Lindsey threatens to abscond with the masters like a petulant child.

:lol::lol::lol: :thumbsup:

[CADreaming]

I guess he didn't know any dentists.:shrug:

Exactly! :wavey:

I just keep coming back to that scene in the Destiny Rules documentary where Lindsey threatens to abscond with the masters like a petulant child.

Genius! :laugh:

[michelej1]

Twice in the 90s he was on Letterman without Stevie.

yes, I just meant he wasn't on for his last 3 solo albums. But he's been on Conan twice. He hasn't been on Leno either, but my mind doesn't register Leno, unless forced.

Michele

[elle]

just wondering about something... i have no idea how these things work, so i'm hoping maybe someone here knows the answer:

producers listed for the rumours album were:

Ken Caillat
Richard Dashut
Fleetwood Mac

does that mean that any producing royalties (or however is part of the album profit called for producers) of continuing album sales are divided 3-way - and that 5 FM members get one third while Ken and Richard each get a third?

[Jondalar]

just wondering about something... i have no idea how these things work, so i'm hoping maybe someone here knows the answer:

producers listed for the rumours album were:

Ken Caillat
Richard Dashut
Fleetwood Mac

does that mean that any producing royalties (or however is part of the album profit called for producers) of continuing album sales are divided 3-way - and that 5 FM members get one third while Ken and Richard each get a third?

yes that is what is means

[elle]

yes that is what is means

thanks. do we know that for sure in the specific case of Rumours? that it was a 3-way split and not 8-way split?

[Jondalar]

thanks. do we know that for sure in the specific case of Rumours? that it was a 3-way split and not 8-way split?

Fleetwood Mac is listed as an entity, 1/3rd

[elle]

Fleetwood Mac is listed as an entity, 1/3rd

ok. so that would mean that Dashut is getting 1/3, while LB is getting 1/15 of Rumours producing profit?

also Dashut was living in Lindsey's house at the time. so looking at some of the discussion in this thread, the confusing part to me is - wouldn't Dashut be paid directly for his producing job, same as FM?


EDIT: just received the answer from Ken via twitter:

@kencaillat
@ellellew Royalties are more complicated than that. The Label makes a deal with the artist then artist makes a deal with the producer(s)

[CADreaming]

^I'm sure there are some other Ledgies who work in the business and can explain it in layman's terms better, but this was an interesting read:

http://law.freeadvice.com/intellectual_property/music_law/music_producer_agreement.htm

[David]

Hiiiiii.

Nia.
HI BABE!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you on FB?

[Jondalar]

ok. so that would mean that Dashut is getting 1/3, while LB is getting 1/15 of Rumours producing profit?

also Dashut was living in Lindsey's house at the time. so looking at some of the discussion in this thread, the confusing part to me is - wouldn't Dashut be paid directly for his producing job, same as FM?


EDIT: just received the answer from Ken via twitter:

@kencaillat
@ellellew Royalties are more complicated than that. The Label makes a deal with the artist then artist makes a deal with the producer(s)


ok, that is news to me, thanks for this

Whatever the case, they need to be kissing Stevie's ass because she is the one responsible for Rumours resurgence

[elle]

ok, that is news to me, thanks for this


no problem.

Whatever the case, they need to be kissing Stevie's ass because she is the one responsible for Rumours resurgence

i thought Glee was?

[Jondalar]

no problem.



i thought Glee was?

She got them glee

[CADreaming]

She got them glee

Yep, she's been working it. The worker bee that is she. :D

[vivfox]

Ken, thank you for this article. I've always loved good dish on Fleetweed Mac.

[Nico]

She got them glee

I thought LB knew Ryan Murphy, though.

[Nico]

After watching the 'Destiny Rules' documentary and reading 'Say You Will'-era interviews (Lindsey wanted Mark Needham, Lindsey got Mark Needham. Lindsey wanted the heavier songs up front in the album's running order, Lindsey got the heavier songs up front. Lindsey wanted a double-album, Lindsey got a double-length album. Lindsey wanted to tour for two years, Lindsey got a two-year tour), and then reading this interview with Ken (Lindsey/Lindsey's management discouraged anyone in the band from participating. Lindsey's management shot down the use of audio outtakes for the e-book.), it's interesting that so many fans feel that Stevie calls the shots in Fleetwood Mac.

I'm not saying that she never throws her weight around -- I just tend to think, from all the evidence, that she's not the one who holds all the cards.

This. Couldn't agree more.

[CADreaming]

I thought LB knew Ryan Murphy, though.

LB did mention in an interview that he thought it was a great idea to use Glee as a platform -- and the next thing you know Stevie showed up and they did the Rumours thing. Wonder Twin Powers -- activate! :D

[elle]

She got them glee

oh cool, i didn't know that. how did she do that?

only Glee connection i knew about was that Kristen and Lindsey Buckingham are on the board of some LA charity together with Ryan Murphy (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/los-angeles-antiques-show-adds-177461).

[elle]

I thought LB knew Ryan Murphy, though.

yup, Ryan Murphy said he gave LB a call and Lindsey thought it was a great idea since his kids were watching the show. and that Glee's people contacted SN's people.:laugh:

after it was publicized that FM songwriters agreed to have a Glee episode based on Rumours music, SN showed up at one of the Glee rehearsals.

[CADreaming]

only Glee connection i knew about was that Kristen and Lindsey Buckingham are on the board of some LA charity together with Ryan Murphy (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/los-angeles-antiques-show-adds-177461).

:lol::lol::lol: Nice!

[Nico]

yup, Ryan Murphy said he gave LB a call and Lindsey thought it was a great idea since his kids were watching the show. and that Glee's people contacted SN's people.:laugh:

after it was publicized that FM songwriters agreed to have a Glee episode based on Rumours music, SN showed up at one of the Glee rehearsals.

Yes, that is how I recall reading it. Ryan Murphy contacted Lindsey and both Kristen and LB knew Ryan from functions. LB's kids are huge fans and Linds agreed to it and Stevie of course.

What Jondular said about Stevie getting FM Glee is news to me. :shrug:

[CADreaming]

Yes, that is how I recall reading it. Ryan Murphy contacted Lindsey and both Kristen and LB knew Ryan from functions. LB's kids are huge fans and Linds agreed to it and Stevie of course.

What Jondular said about Stevie getting FM Glee is news to me. :shrug:

I don't remember reading anything about LB's people calling Stevie's people. I just remember an interview where the reporter mentioned the idea to LB and he actually said he thought it was a great idea.

I can understand Jondalar only being familiar with Stevie's involvement because she was the one hoofing it in front of the cameras, doing all the leg work with the press. Lindsey simply gave his approval in an obscure interview (as I recall).

[elle]

I don't remember reading anything about LB's people calling Stevie's people. I just remember an interview where the reporter mentioned the idea to LB and he actually said he thought it was a great idea.

I can understand Jondalar only being familiar with Stevie's involvement because she was the one hoofing it in front of the cameras, doing all the leg work with the press. Lindsey simply gave his approval in an obscure interview (as I recall).

:laugh: no, not LB's people. Glee's / Murphy's people. he didn't know SN so he had his people contact hers. he knew LB so he just gave him a call. at least that's what Ryan Murphy said about how it all came together.

[Nico]

I don't remember reading anything about LB's people calling Stevie's people. I just remember an interview where the reporter mentioned the idea to LB and he actually said he thought it was a great idea.

Yeah, I didn't mean that about LB's people calling SN's. I just sort of put SN as an after-thought in there because I always thought Ryan Murphy contacted Lindsey. I heard that Ryan knew Linds and Kristen from functions. Anyways, however it happened...cool. I'm not a Glee person at all (though I will be watching on April 10th because the gorgeous and talented Matt Bomer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzm_X8X9B8) will be guesting but he is the only reason I will ever be watching the show- unless members of my favorite bands start popping up on there as well of course!)

[CADreaming]

Gotcha. Like I said, they worked that whole thing out together.

[elle]

or maybe Kristen got them in? :laugh: for some reason i get the feeling that she's the best as far as networking goes among that whole bunch. :shrug:

[michelej1]

Now that FM and Stevie are under the same management umbrella, most of the things the individual members do are ultimately with the big FM picture in mind. The people who got LB on Saturday Night Live are now related to the people who got Stevie on Up All Night. It's not really Us v. Them any longer, as it was during Destiny Rules.

Michele

[elle]

Now that FM and Stevie are under the same management umbrella, most of the things the individual members do are ultimately with the big FM picture in mind. The people who got LB on Saturday Night Live are now related to the people who got Stevie on Up All Night. It's not really Us v. Them any longer, as it was during Destiny Rules.

unless they are discussing BN reissue and tour. in that case nobody can agree on anything.:lol:

[iamnotafraid]

Wonder Twin Powers -- activate! :D


We must be the same age!

[Jondalar]

unless they are discussing BN reissue and tour. in that case nobody can agree on anything.:lol:

Wouldn't that piss Mick off? If they decided to do a BN tour first.

[HomerMcvie]

The worker bee that is she. :D

I consider her more of a drone....:woohoo:

[iamnotafraid]

For the record, I'm glad Lindsey didn't do Glee.
Even if he thought it was a good idea for Stevie,
by him not doing it he seems less like a sell out.

[CADreaming]

unless they are discussing BN reissue and tour. in that case nobody can agree on anything.:lol:

None of us have any true idea where they stand with that.

We must be the same age!

Cool! I was hoping '70's pop culture wouldn't be totally lost.

Wouldn't that piss Mick off? If they decided to do a BN tour first.

Maybe it already has and that's why he was pissing and moaning in the Playboy article...

[WildHearted]

For the record, I'm glad Lindsey didn't do Glee.
Even if he thought it was a good idea for Stevie,
by him not doing it he seems less like a sell out.

Lindsey's songs were on Glee, too. :shrug: Stevie just visited the set when the were filming - she wasn't actually on the show or anything. And actually the episode she visited wasn't even the Rumours episode, it was just a random one where they sang Landslide that happened before all the Rumours stuff.

[CADreaming]

Lindsey's songs were on Glee, too. :shrug: Stevie just visited the set when the were filming - she wasn't actually on the show or anything. And actually the episode she visited wasn't even the Rumours episode, it was just a random one where they sang Landslide that happened before all the Rumours stuff.

But, I'm sure it was connected and not just a random coincidence. Sort of like playing golf with a potential business partner before a big deal.


or maybe Kristen got them in? :laugh: for some reason i get the feeling that she's the best as far as networking goes among that whole bunch. :shrug:

You may be on to something! After all, Katy Perry was at the school charity thingy at the Buckingham's and LB mentioned how his kids dig her music then poof Stevie suddenly wants to collaborate and does that lead in on Katy's video.

Kristen should be put on the payroll.

[WildHearted]

But, I'm sure it was connected and not just a random coincidence. Sort of like playing golf with a potential business partner before a big deal.

Right. I was just responding to the insinuation (or rather, statement) that somehow Stevie was a sellout in regards to the Glee thing. :cool:

[Nico]

Right. I was just responding to the insinuation (or rather, statement) that somehow Stevie was a sellout in regards to the Glee thing. :cool:

But how could she be if Lindsey was contacted by Ryan Murphy and agreed to it? It's not all on Stevie!

[Jondalar]

Right. I was just responding to the insinuation (or rather, statement) that somehow Stevie was a sellout in regards to the Glee thing. :cool:

the whole "sellout" thing is bunch of crap, they all want to be heard and make money, Stevie has been smart, the only thing that has helped sells has came from the tv, what is great about it is it really has confirmed her stardom, she can get on the biggest shows at her age, pretty cool

[Ulpian]

I am delighted that Christine comes off relatively well in all of this and that she has responded positively to this book.

I was concerned, a couple of years back, at the portrayal of her (not just by Ken Caillat, but also by the UK press when she ran into some trouble in her local village) as a paranoid recluse.

She appears to have handled things with class. If I were her, though, I'd have helped Ken with the book. The sentiment that she didn't want to 'go against anyone else' is noble, but frankly - especially where Lindsey is concerned - I don't think the same courtesy would have been extended had the shoe been on the other foot.

[Nico]

She appears to have handled things with class. If I were her, though, I'd have helped Ken with the book. The sentiment that she didn't want to 'go against anyone else' is noble, but frankly - especially where Lindsey is concerned - I don't think the same courtesy would have been extended had the shoe been on the other foot.

Really? What makes you think Lindsey would involve himself so happily in a book if Christine didn't want it? Has he ever been much of a kiss-and-tell type anyway? Or has he really been that interested in disclosing private details about the recording process of said album and the various members and their escapades and etc. during said time period?

I would just like to know why you seem to think LB would be so inclined to deliberately go against Christine's wishes- if the tables were turned/shoe on other foot/insert clever idiom? I guess everyone seems to think Lindsey is nothing short of a complete a-hole, right?

[iamnotafraid]

Lindsey's songs were on Glee, too. :shrug: Stevie just visited the set when the were filming - she wasn't actually on the show or anything. And actually the episode she visited wasn't even the Rumours episode, it was just a random one where they sang Landslide that happened before all the Rumours stuff.

Wildhearted & Jondular,

"Sell out" might be a little harsh, but
there's some truth in it. I don't know if Stevie
only visiting the show makes it better or worse
than actually making an appearance.

There was a time when Stevie was a little more
selective (because she could be) about appearing
on TV. She didn't do Letterman until she needed
him.

It probably makes business sense to do these TV
shows at this point in her career. But in my opinion
it's still a bit of selling out. Not that Lindsey is totally
in the clear. I doubt he's asked to do much TV anymore.
The general public would be like "Lindsey...who?".

What if this were a different time? Would Lindsey and
Stevie be lining up to do an episode of Fantasy Island
and The Love Boat?

[SteveMacD]

Not that Lindsey is totally in the clear.
No. No he's not...


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/faFcpyJl6M4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[mezzoforte]

What's wrong with getting your art out there? For better or worse, most people who make it, make it because they'll do anything to get their music heard. No shame in promoting it, as long as you're putting out a solid product.

[poetinmyheart]

What's wrong with getting your art out there? For better or worse, most people who make it, make it because they'll do anything to get their music heard. No shame in promoting it, as long as you're putting out a solid product.

Agreed :nod:

[Jondalar]

Wildhearted & Jondular,

"Sell out" might be a little harsh, but
there's some truth in it. I don't know if Stevie
only visiting the show makes it better or worse
than actually making an appearance.

There was a time when Stevie was a little more
selective (because she could be) about appearing
on TV. She didn't do Letterman until she needed
him.

It probably makes business sense to do these TV
shows at this point in her career. But in my opinion
it's still a bit of selling out. Not that Lindsey is totally
in the clear. I doubt he's asked to do much TV anymore.
The general public would be like "Lindsey...who?".

What if this were a different time? Would Lindsey and
Stevie be lining up to do an episode of Fantasy Island
and The Love Boat?

Well, the truth of the matter is the only thing selling albums is her tv appearances. You gotta do, what you gotta do.

[louielouie2000]

No. No he's not...


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/faFcpyJl6M4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:lol:

When did this shocking soul sale take place & how on earth did I miss it? :p

Oddly enough, their voices seem to blend & compliment each other better than modern day Lindsey & Stevie. :shocked:

[Nico]

:lol:

When did this shocking soul sale take place & how on earth did I miss it? :p

Oddly enough, their voices seem to blend & compliment each other better than modern day Lindsey & Stevie. :shocked:

The entire audience gave him a standing ovation as well. :nod:

[SteveMacD]

What's wrong with getting your art out there?
Nothing in and of itself. However, is constantly rehashing songs from a 35 year old album really "art"? What's the artistic point of "Glee" or singing your big hit song with somebody like Carrie Underwood on an awards show? People aren't going to buy SWS or IYD because they saw Lindsey doing "Go Your Own Way" again. They MAY buy "Rumours" if they don't already own it.

[elle]

Nothing in and of itself. However, is constantly rehashing songs from a 35 year old album really "art"? What's the artistic point of "Glee" or singing your big hit song with somebody like Carrie Underwood on an awards show? People aren't going to buy SWS or IYD because they saw Lindsey doing "Go Your Own Way" again. They MAY buy "Rumours" if they don't already own it.

it's a way of bringing those hits to a whole new generation. GYOW was included on Guitar Hero, at the time GH was still big. my guitar playing teenager says he hears GYOW on stations he cares to listen to, and he thinks LB is a great guitar player even though he doesn't care for his lyrics. when my 8yo hears EO17 on her pop radio, she thinks it's a great recently released song :laugh:.

btw, i don't remember lindsey singing anything other than his SWS songs in any of his last year's tv appearances.:shrug: he did SWS, IOOT, and EOT. the only performance where he did a part of his old song was SNL, but that was months before SWS came out and he was there as a part of the sketch.

[elle]

The entire audience gave him a standing ovation as well. :nod:

of course, the guitar solo was cut out of this version shown on tv, but there's a version with his whole guitar solo (still very shortened) floating somewhere on youtube.

[mezzoforte]

Nothing in and of itself. However, is constantly rehashing songs from a 35 year old album really "art"? What's the artistic point of "Glee" or singing your big hit song with somebody like Carrie Underwood on an awards show? People aren't going to buy SWS or IYD because they saw Lindsey doing "Go Your Own Way" again. They MAY buy "Rumours" if they don't already own it.

I'm not a Carrie Underwood fan, but it's hard to deny that she's an extremely talented singer. LB could do a lot worse.

Of course, La Nicks did stoop with Taylor Swift, but as with Glee, I can't blame these artists for wanting to reach a new fan base. They have legacies to preserve, and want their music to make it to the next generation.

I guess it's just personal opinion whether you think they're better off fading away, or playing 35-year-old hits to reach the kids. Different strokes. :shrug:

[windbecame]

What's wrong with getting your art out there? For better or worse, most people who make it, make it because they'll do anything to get their music heard. No shame in promoting it, as long as you're putting out a solid product.

YAY!!! :wavey: mezzoforte i have been waiting for you to post FOREVER... on ANYTHING:nod: where have you and your insightful posts been???? and do you STILL love Wide Sargasso Sea as much as I ???? :xoxo:

[mezzoforte]

YAY!!! :wavey: mezzoforte i have been waiting for you to post FOREVER... on ANYTHING:nod: where have you and your insightful posts been???? and do you STILL love Wide Sargasso Sea as much as I ???? :xoxo:

Man, I can't believe anyone missed me! Thanks, you made my day.:xoxo:

And I love "Wide Sargasso Sea" always and forever. I think I'll die if we ever get a live version (Karen, if you're reading this...)

[MikeInNV]

"Sell out" might be a little harsh, but
there's some truth in it. I don't know if Stevie
only visiting the show makes it better or worse
than actually making an appearance.

Whether it's harsh or not, Stevie and Lindsey are on equal footing here. Stevie made no money visiting the set....she went to encourage the kids and, I'm sure, to see how Gwyneth's version of Landslide turned out. When Glee decided to write an episode based on Rumours, Lindsey and Stevie both had to okay it, and both of them cashed in big-time on the royalties and the album's subsequent resurgence (No. 11 or 12 on the following week's Billboard chart as I recall).

[CADreaming]

I don't think going on a television show is "selling out". Marketing strategies have changed a bit and they're just promoting their product. Now, if anyone shows up as a contestant on DWTS then that's a whole other ball of wax...

[iamnotafraid]

Whether it's harsh or not, Stevie and Lindsey are on equal footing here. Stevie made no money visiting the set....she went to encourage the kids and, I'm sure, to see how Gwyneth's version of Landslide turned out. When Glee decided to write an episode based on Rumours, Lindsey and Stevie both had to okay it, and both of them cashed in big-time on the royalties and the album's subsequent resurgence (No. 11 or 12 on the following week's Billboard chart as I recall).

Are you guys baiting me into slamming Stevie?

She didn't appear on Glee because they didn't ask
her to. She hung around a studio backstage to
encourage kids, and that's a nice thing to do. But
you can't tell me she didn't want something for it.
Like maybe a guest appearance on the actual show.
And that's what I meant by not knowing whether it
was worse to be on the show (sell out). Or to not
be on (not invited). Almost groveling. Which is worse?

"Cashing in big-time", I'm not so sure about that either.
While I have no idea what the show had to pay to use
their songs, the "resurgence on the Billboard Chart" would
probably a paltry amount to notice in their bank accounts.
It doesn't take much to appear in the Top 20 anymore.

[PenguinHead]

Are you guys baiting me into slamming Stevie?

She didn't appear on Glee because they didn't ask
her to. She hung around a studio backstage to
encourage kids, and that's a nice thing to do. But
you can't tell me she didn't want something for it.
Like maybe a guess appearance on the actual show.
And that's what I meant by not knowing whether it
was worse to be on the show (sell out). Or to not
be on (not invited). Almost groveling. Which is worse?

"Cashing in big-time", I'm not so sure about that either.
While I have no idea what the show had to pay to use
their songs, the "resurgence on the Billboard Chart" would
probably a paltry amount to notice in their bank accounts.
It doesn't take much to appear in the Top 20 anymore.

The tone of those thoughts
seem so cynical and
overwraught.
Why?

[CADreaming]

Are you guys baiting me into slamming Stevie?

She didn't appear on Glee because they didn't ask
her to. She hung around a studio backstage to
encourage kids, and that's a nice thing to do. But
you can't tell me she didn't want something for it.
Like maybe a guess appearance on the actual show.
And that's what I meant by not knowing whether it
was worse to be on the show (sell out). Or to not
be on (not invited). Almost groveling. Which is worse?

They were working on a deal to do the Rumours episode, so I'm sure she was there for a purpose other than watching Gwyneth sing her song (but didn't Gwyneth visit Stevie in the studio when she was doing TISL?), not necessarily an ulterior motive.

"Cashing in big-time", I'm not so sure about that either.
While I have no idea what the show had to pay to use
their songs, the "resurgence on the Billboard Chart" would
probably a paltry amount to notice in their bank accounts.
It doesn't take much to appear in the Top 20 anymore.

Downloads. It's all about the downloads and I think the appearances have garnered a lot. I don't think anyone's kidding themselves into thinking a repeat of '77 is gonna happen for them at this point, but to earn some pocket change? Well, it's better than not being on tv and not getting any downloads this week.

[windbecame]

Man, I can't believe anyone missed me! Thanks, you made my day.:xoxo:

And I love "Wide Sargasso Sea" always and forever. I think I'll die if we ever get a live version (Karen, if you're reading this...)

YES Mezzoforte!! i NOTICED you weren't around AND missed you!! Between you and Viv... you BOTH post the things i was going to say!!:nod: !!!!! XOXO

[iamnotafraid]

The tone of those thoughts
seem so cynical and
overwraught.
Why?

I'd agree, they do seem that way.
I should stick to my jokes.


CAD,
Like I said, I think appearing on these
recent shows make business sense. I
imagine the kids watching the show
would rather have the actor/singers mp3
than the original versions. I don't keep up
with the charts like I used to. So I'm not
sure how their downloads did after the
show.

But hey, Stevie's appearance on Up All Night
was the only thing that made the show watchable.
I'd comment more but I think PenguinHead was
right.

[MikeInNV]

Are you guys baiting me into slamming Stevie?

She didn't appear on Glee because they didn't ask
her to. She hung around a studio backstage to
encourage kids, and that's a nice thing to do. But
you can't tell me she didn't want something for it.
Like maybe a guest appearance on the actual show.
And that's what I meant by not knowing whether it
was worse to be on the show (sell out). Or to not
be on (not invited). Almost groveling. Which is worse?

"Cashing in big-time", I'm not so sure about that either.
While I have no idea what the show had to pay to use
their songs, the "resurgence on the Billboard Chart" would
probably a paltry amount to notice in their bank accounts.
It doesn't take much to appear in the Top 20 anymore.

I'm certainly not baiting you. There's enough Stevie bashing without that. :lol: While your scenario about her involvement may very well be true, I do think you are speculating a bit. But given that Lindsey was contacted by the producers and thought it was a great idea and gave his approval and reaped the same benefits as she did, I don't get why she is more of a sell-out just because she went down there. If anything, showing some interest in what they are doing with your music seems a little more admirable than saying "Just send me the check." I'm sure the cast and crew would love to have more visits like that (in fact I think one of the cast members even said something to that effect).

[Nathan]

I'd agree, they do seem that way.
I should stick to my jokes.


CAD,
Like I said, I think appearing on these
recent shows make business sense. I
imagine the kids watching the show
would rather have the actor/singers mp3
than the original versions. I don't keep up
with the charts like I used to. So I'm not
sure how their downloads did after the
show.

But hey, Stevie's appearance on Up All Night
was the only thing that made the show watchable.
I'd comment more but I think PenguinHead was
right.

Stick to speaking your mind please!
It is appreciated!

[louielouie2000]

While I detest Glee, American Idol, televised award shows, Dancing With The Stars, and have never even heard of Up All Night, these venues are how artists market themselves these days. It's not the 1970s anymore- there is no Midnight Special, MTV has absolutely nothing to do with music, and the music periodicals that are left have become irrelevant due to the internet. Being showcased on any of the above shows today is a sign you're a big star, and people still care about you. I may not watch any of these shows (even when the band is showcased on them), but I still think it's pretty fantastic Fleetwood Mac is still generating enough interest to make the latest crazed tv shows.

[michelej1]

None of us have any true idea where they stand with that.




I don't know where they stand now, but a few years ago it was pretty clear from their comments that each of them blamed the other for nothing going forward. Certainly, it's evolved form Stevie saying that Lindsey won't act and him ruefully saying that she has the masters in her closet vault (or her manager does). I think they've come to some sort of understanding since then, but the reason fans initially thought that they were in discord over BN is because they both pointed fingers at the other.

Michele

[bombaysaffires]

You get on popular current shows to seem still relevant. Even if you don't get on an actual episode, your management and publicist know they can get you coverage on all the entertainment news shows and magazines visiting the set and having photos taken with the new generation of stars. It's all about keeping your name in the news. Liz Rosenberg is a master at this and that's why Stevie hired her.

Stevie has always been suuuuuuperr competitive with Lindsey and vice versa, so I'm not surprised when one of them mentions something and suddenly the other one is somehow doing something similar. Neither will ever let the other get a leg up if at all possible. Interesting that after SYW LB went with feistier management (Irving Azoff and co) to even out the power Howard Kaufman has.

[michelej1]

Really? What makes you think Lindsey would involve himself so happily in a book if Christine didn't want it? Has he ever been much of a kiss-and-tell type anyway? Or has he really been that interested in disclosing private details about the recording process of said album and the various members and their escapades and etc. during said time period?



It's funny. Stevie has spoken often of writing a book and Christine has joked about it and mentioned that her brother knows all of her secrets anyway, so maybe he could help her. Lindsey has never even mentioned writing a book of any kind.

I highly doubt that Christine declined to talk to Ken because Lindsey plans on writing a book.

Michele

[David]

What if this were a different time? Would Lindsey and Stevie be lining up to do an episode of Fantasy Island
and The Love Boat?
It's funny you bring up that era because this discussion got me thinking about the reputation Fleetwood Mac used to have at that time. Probably not a lot of you even know or remember this, but in the mid and late 1970s, despite the overwhelming commercial success of Rumours, the band was widely known as having a great deal of business integrity. It wasn't just a confidence trick played on the press, either. Mac was by far the biggest band in the world that was self-managed (Mick & Seedy Mgmt), and it regularly turned down and successfully avoided the crass marketing ploys that all the other big rock bands like the Eagles and Van Halen and albums like Saturday Night Fever and Grease all trucked in. Music journalists used to ask Mick about the band's self-management and he always was very honest about all five of them wanting to maintain integrity: He didn't want record buyers to open a Fleetwood Mac album and find coupons for products and marketing tie-ins, like the Peter Frampton albums. (There's one little address for a fan club on the lyric insert for Rumours, but it's totally harmless, and there was nothing on Tusk.)

Not to say that Fleetwood Mac never gave an interview to a mass-market magazine, because we know that isn't true. But they didn't accept any offers to go from one dumb TV show to another (you can bet your life that Stevie Nicks was asked to go on Love Boat and Fantasy Island and all that crap), and their concerts were run like old-fashioned rock concerts (beer, pot, and tourbooks), and they didn't put their names on lines of clothing.

That reputation of the band back then was palpable and gave a lot of us fans a pleasurable buzz. The next two albums (Tusk and Live) were quirky and personal and maintained the band's reputation for doing exactly what it wanted to do. It was only with Mirage that Fleetwood Mac began to seem corporate in the bad sense of capitulating to commercial considerations.

[windbecame]

While I detest Glee, American Idol, televised award shows, Dancing With The Stars, and have never even heard of Up All Night, these venues are how artists market themselves these days. It's not the 1970s anymore- there is no Midnight Special, MTV has absolutely nothing to do with music, and the music periodicals that are left have become irrelevant due to the internet. Being showcased on any of the above shows today is a sign you're a big star, and people still care about you. I may not watch any of these shows (even when the band is showcased on them), but I still think it's pretty fantastic Fleetwood Mac is still generating enough interest to make the latest crazed tv shows.

:xoxo: LOUIE... i just don't know if i love you more for your post or NOT loving icky ANGEL (like me)...either way ....sometimes i have to remind myself that 3/4 of the ledgies have no clue that MTV actually used to mean MUSIC TELEVSION... or have NO idea that "love boat" or "fantasy island" was a t.v. show....not to even mention the "WONDER TWINS" reference before... these are MANY of the reasons i don't even BOTHER to weigh in....:shrug:

[CADreaming]

I don't know where they stand now, but a few years ago it was pretty clear from their comments that each of them blamed the other for nothing going forward. Certainly, it's evolved form Stevie saying that Lindsey won't act and him ruefully saying that she has the masters in her closet vault (or her manager does). I think they've come to some sort of understanding since then, but the reason fans initially thought that they were in discord over BN is because they both pointed fingers at the other.

Michele

Oh, I know what they said. I think a lot of that is part of the game though because it keeps us talking...



Stevie has always been suuuuuuperr competitive with Lindsey and vice versa, so I'm not surprised when one of them mentions something and suddenly the other one is somehow doing something similar. Neither will ever let the other get a leg up if at all possible. Interesting that after SYW LB went with feistier management (Irving Azoff and co) to even out the power Howard Kaufman has.

I'm not sure I buy that at this point. When you reach their age some of that changes and doesn't become as important. And, why now? Why would Lindsey's solo career need "feistier" management now than in 1981? And, given the fact that Kaufman and Azoff reformed Front Line and are FM's management then that actually puts them more under the same umbrella, as Michele pointed out earlier.

[HejiraNYC]

It's funny you bring up that era because this discussion got me thinking about the reputation Fleetwood Mac used to have at that time. Probably not a lot of you even know or remember this, but in the mid and late 1970s, despite the overwhelming commercial success of Rumours, the band was widely known as having a great deal of business integrity. It wasn't just a confidence trick played on the press, either. Mac was by far the biggest band in the world that was self-managed (Mick & Seedy Mgmt), and it regularly turned down and successfully avoided the crass marketing ploys that all the other big rock bands like the Eagles and Van Halen and albums like Saturday Night Fever and Grease all trucked in. Music journalists used to ask Mick about the band's self-management and he always was very honest about all five of them wanting to maintain integrity: He didn't want record buyers to open a Fleetwood Mac album and find coupons for products and marketing tie-ins, like the Peter Frampton albums. (There's one little address for a fan club on the lyric insert for Rumours, but it's totally harmless, and there was nothing on Tusk.)

Not to say that Fleetwood Mac never gave an interview to a mass-market magazine, because we know that isn't true. But they didn't accept any offers to go from one dumb TV show to another (you can bet your life that Stevie Nicks was asked to go on Love Boat and Fantasy Island and all that crap), and their concerts were run like old-fashioned rock concerts (beer, pot, and tourbooks), and they didn't put their names on lines of clothing.

That reputation of the band back then was palpable and gave a lot of us fans a pleasurable buzz. The next two albums (Tusk and Live) were quirky and personal and maintained the band's reputation for doing exactly what it wanted to do. It was only with Mirage that Fleetwood Mac began to seem corporate in the bad sense of capitulating to commercial considerations.

Nobody else in rock n' roll was selling out to the masses either; Van Halen and the Eagles were not exactly lining up to do guest spots on Three's Company. It just wasn't cool. In fact, primetime television was the medium for musical irrelevance; it was too closely associated with the realm of the unhip- namely variety shows like The Donny and MarieShow, The Barbara Mandrell Show, The Captain and Tenille Show, The Sonny and Cher Show, etc. And by the time Davey Jones guested on The Brady Bunch, he was thoroughly washed up and hung out to dry. On these shows you would routinely see has-beens like Paul Anka, Frankie Valli, Charo, Glenn Campbell, John Denver and pre-comeback Tina Turner. Other than Elton John, no mainstream, relevant rock stars were doing these kinds of shows, let alone those weekly ensemble dramas like The Love Boat and Fantasy Island. Besides, Stevie and Lindsey were not considered to be high-profile names outside of the band.

It seems that primetime TV exposure was kinda taboo for rock and roll up until around the time when American Idol came on the scene and internet piracy started killing music sales. This is also around the time when rock pretty much vanished from hits radio and started appearing on television- on singing competitions, primetime series and commercials. I think Stevie's appearances on TV these past couple of years is just part of that natural evolution. She still has a name/image that is recognizeable and marketable. She briefly teetered on the edge of irrelevance back in the 1990s, so she definitely appreciates the fact that she is still a marquee name in this day and age. Since radio is not touching her with a ten-meter pole, she knows what she has to do to keep brand Stevie alive and well.

[CADreaming]

Nobody else in rock n' roll was selling out to the masses either; Van Halen and the Eagles were not exactly lining up to do guest spots on Three's Company. It just wasn't cool. In fact, primetime television was the medium for musical irrelevance; it was too closely associated with the realm of the unhip- namely variety shows like The Donny and MarieShow, The Barbara Mandrell Show, The Captain and Tenille Show, The Sonny and Cher Show, etc. And by the time Davey Jones guested on The Brady Bunch, he was thoroughly washed up and hung out to dry. On these shows you would routinely see has-beens like Paul Anka, Frankie Valli, Charo, Glenn Campbell, John Denver and pre-comeback Tina Turner. Other than Elton John, no mainstream, relevant rock stars were doing these kinds of shows, let alone those weekly ensemble dramas like The Love Boat and Fantasy Island. Besides, Stevie and Lindsey were not considered to be high-profile names outside of the band.

It seems that primetime TV exposure was kinda taboo for rock and roll up until around the time when American Idol came on the scene and internet piracy started killing music sales. This is also around the time when rock pretty much vanished from hits radio and started appearing on television- on singing competitions, primetime series and commercials. I think Stevie's appearances on TV these past couple of years is just part of that natural evolution. She still has a name/image that is recognizeable and marketable. She briefly teetered on the edge of irrelevance back in the 1990s, so she definitely appreciates the fact that she is still a marquee name in this day and age. Since radio is not touching her with a ten-meter pole, she knows what she has to do to keep brand Stevie alive and well.

But, Leif Garrett was huge when he appeared on Family. The Doobie Brothers were in What's Happening. Whitney Houston was on Silver Spoons, Friends had a lot of music artists guest - the list is endless really. For as many washed up singers (and actors) there have been just as many popular artists who have made cameos on daytime soaps, hit sitcoms and nighttime dramas as a vehicle for promoting themselves and their current hit and getting their face out there.

[HejiraNYC]

But, Leif Garrett was huge when he appeared on Family. The Doobie Brothers were in What's Happening. Whitney Houston was on Silver Spoons, Friends had a lot of music artists guest - the list is endless really. For as many washed up singers (and actors) there have been just as many popular artists who have made cameos on daytime soaps, hit sitcoms and nighttime dramas as a vehicle for promoting themselves and their current hit and getting their face out there.

Oh please... Leif Garrett was the Justin Bieber of his day; so not cool. Yes, he, Shawn Cassidy, and Donny Osmond were on the cover of the teeny bopper magazines, but they had absolutely zero musical credibility. As for Whitney... I see no record of her appearing on "Silver Spoons." Her IMDB profile indicates that she appeared on "Gimme a Break" (RIP, Nell Carter :angel:), but it was in 1984- two years prior to her breakthrough. Similarly, Janet Jackson appeared on "Good Times" and "Different Strokes" prior to her mainstream musical breakthrough. I don't see a record of Michael McDonald appearing on "What's Happening," so if the Doobies did appear on the show, I suspect it was after his departure, i.e., when they were pretty much washed-up.

In any event, I think the issue here is regarding whether it was hip for rock stars to do primetime TV back in the 1970s, and whether Stevie and Lindsey would have guest starred on one of those shows. I still believe that it was not so cool back then, whereas today it is actually a privilege.

[michelej1]

Oh, I know what they said. I think a lot of that is part of the game though because it keeps us talking...






Yes, I know we see things differently.

I don't buy the idea that they are engaged in some elaborate and ongoing scheme to mislead fans about their true relationship and objectives. If anything I think they seek to manipulate each other with their interview comments rather than their fans. They exagerate to spur a response from each other, not to fool us, in my view. When they express frustration with each other in the press, I think it is very real, not disastrous, or at all permanent, but real.

[CADreaming]

Yes, I know we see things differently.

I don't buy the idea that they are engaged in some elaborate and ongoing scheme to mislead fans about their true relationship and objectives. If anything I think they seek to manipulate each other with their interview comments rather than their fans. They exagerate to spur a response from each other, not to fool us, in my view. When they express frustration with each other in the press, I think it is very real, not disastrous, or at all permanent, but real.

They certainly know how to use the press. I just don't buy that they need to use it to take jabs at one another. They are on speaking terms. Lindsey didn't even know Stevie had a desire to be a Heartbreaker, so he must not be keeping up with her press too terribly much. God knows she's said that 1 million times...

Involved in a scheme? :shrug: "Partners in Crime"... Ha! :rolleyes:

As for their relationship & objectives - even they aren't very clear on that. (If you believe everything in their press).

I just don't believe ALL of anyone's press. It's a tool to reach the public for promotional purposes. We get to hear what they want us to hear. Whatever will get sales. But, of course it's obvious no matter how much they care about one another their relationship is far from rosey all the time either. I guess I believe the real truth is always somewhere in between, no matter if it's FM or politics or any other topic.

[ragrsrocalot]

But, Leif Garrett was huge when he appeared on Family. The Doobie Brothers were in What's Happening. Whitney Houston was on Silver Spoons, Friends had a lot of music artists guest - the list is endless really. For as many washed up singers (and actors) there have been just as many popular artists who have made cameos on daytime soaps, hit sitcoms and nighttime dramas as a vehicle for promoting themselves and their current hit and getting their face out there.

I remember the Silver Spoons episode with Whitney, and I also remember the What's Happening episode with the Doobies, including Michael McDonald.

[michelej1]

On these shows you would routinely see has-beens like Paul Anka, Frankie Valli, Charo, Glenn Campbell, John Denver and pre-comeback Tina Turner.

I would agree with you that you didn't see hot rockers on these shows, but the singing guests weren't usually has beens (the comedy guests, ala Milton Berle, might have been). Glenn Campbell was on Sonny and Cher more than once, but one time he was on he had the hottest crossover hit in the country: Southern Nights. It's a song that I understand SnL have informally dueted on.

Debby Boone made the rounds on the shows that you mentioned when she had the country's numbe 1 song for weeks on end. Dolly Parton went on Cher's show when her album Here You Come Again was red hot. Kenny Rogers was also a staple. Now, you wouldn't see David Bowie on these variety shows, but country and adult contemporary artists went on there at their peaks.

Of course, sitcoms are another matter. I remember the What's Happening episode and the punch line was "Which Doobie you be?" I would not have wished that on Fleetwood Mac!


Michele

[michelej1]

They certainly know how to use the press. I just don't buy that they need to use it to take jabs at one another. They are on speaking terms. Lindsey didn't even know Stevie had a desire to be a Heartbreaker, so he must not be keeping up with her press too terribly much. God know she's said that 1 million times...



I don't think they NEED to talk to each other in the press, but I think they do.

When Lindsey told the press that Stevie never said thank you to him for SYW, I think that was 100% for her benefit. I think Mick's Playboy interview was targeted at Stevie, to put pressure on her to sign on for FM in 2013, sooner rather than later, and I bet you anything it succeeded.

When Lindsey was talking to the press about Sheryl Crow, I think he was doing it to put Sheryl in her place more than as a message to Stevie, but I am positive that Stevie saw all of his comments and devoutly wished that he would shut up. I think Lindsey said that because he DID read what Mick and Stevie were saying about Sheryl wanting time off for Mother's Day and he wanted to put a truer version of what happened out there. I think he did it in response to them.

He doesn't think they'll read his interviews, but he thinks that someone they associate with will read them and tell them what he said. I don't think he thinks that Christine hasn't heard his 30% more room, when she burned her bridges spiel.

When Stevie said she would walk out so fast that the palm trees would hit Lindsey on the head, I sure don't think she was saying it because she wanted fans to believe they were feuding. She had fun playing those games with Dave's Platinum Weird, but I don't think she and Lindsey are doing it in real life to keep the interest in FM heated up. There are only a handful of people who care about that kind of nonsense anyway and they are all probably right here on the board.

Michele

[The Chain]

Lindsey didn't even know Stevie had a desire to be a Heartbreaker

sorry to get a little off topic here, but I'd love to read what article/interview where that was said, for some reason I find it kind of funny.

[michelej1]

sorry to get a little off topic here, but I'd love to read what article/interview where that was said, for some reason I find it kind of funny.

It's in this interview. Lindsey couldn't even answer his own questions he was so busy rationalizing why Stevie would say that. Don't worry Lindsey, the Heartbreakers didn't want her. She is yours.

http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/interview-lindsey-buckingham-on-new-album-seeds-we-sow-and-fleetwood-mac-501690

[WildHearted]

It's in this interview. Lindsey couldn't even answer his own questions he was so busy rationalizing why Stevie would say that. Don't worry Lindsey, the Heartbreakers didn't want her. She is yours.

http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/interview-lindsey-buckingham-on-new-album-seeds-we-sow-and-fleetwood-mac-501690

This reminded me that just a few days ago (maybe a week by now, time always passes me by) Tom Petty (or whoever is in charge of TP's social networking sites) posted a link to the video of Learning to Fly from Live in Gatorville and said, ""Learning to Fly" with the one and only Stevie Nicks, the only girl in the Heartbreakers." I thought that was cute :angel: I know Stevie says it all the time but it was nice to hear it from the other side :lol:

anyway back on topic.

[CADreaming]

When Stevie said she would walk out so fast that the palm trees would hit Lindsey on the head,



:laugh::laugh::laugh: One of my favorites!



anyway back on topic.

Yeah, what is that again? LOL!

[iamnotafraid]

Stick to speaking your mind please!
It is appreciated!

Thanks...I think...

[David]

This reminded me that just a few days ago (maybe a week by now, time always passes me by) Tom Petty (or whoever is in charge of TP's social networking sites) posted a link to the video of Learning to Fly from Live in Gatorville and said, ""Learning to Fly" with the one and only Stevie Nicks, the only girl in the Heartbreakers." I thought that was cute :angel: I know Stevie says it all the time but it was nice to hear it from the other sideDoes anyone remember the details of the story Stevie told in the early '80s about how she loved the Heartbreakers so much in 1978 that she practiced her Russian ballet to the You're Gonna Get It album? From there, she wangled a meeting with Jimmy Iovine for the first time backstage at a Fleetwood Mac concert at the L.A. Forum in 1979. Tom Petty brought Jimmy backstage, and she asked him at that meeting to produce her first solo album (which had no release date yet, but she had already signed with Modern).

Do I have this right or have I screwed it up?

[MikeInNV]

Does anyone remember the details of the story Stevie told in the early '80s about how she loved the Heartbreakers so much in 1978 that she practiced her Russian ballet to the You're Gonna Get It album? From there, she wangled a meeting with Jimmy Iovine for the first time backstage at a Fleetwood Mac concert at the L.A. Forum in 1979. Tom Petty brought Jimmy backstage, and she asked him at that meeting to produce her first solo album (which had no release date yet, but she had already signed with Modern).

Do I have this right or have I screwed it up?

I don't know that story, but in the new Rolling Stone there is an interview with Jimmy in which he says that Paul Fishkin and Danny Goldberg asked him to produce BellaDonna.

[aleuzzi]

As for Whitney... I see no record of her appearing on "Silver Spoons." Her IMDB profile indicates that she appeared on "Gimme a Break" (RIP, Nell Carter :angel:), but it was in 1984- two years prior to her breakthrough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVEXOmBAnmM

[aleuzzi]

And here's Michael McDonald with the Doobies on What's Happening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDuW2rgbsD4

[iamnotafraid]

Continuing with The Love Boat theme...

If someone out there in computerland has a
copy of the picture with Ken working his magic
at the mixing board while Jack Jones, Paul Williams,
Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham look on -
please post it here. Some suggest that Buckingham
& Nicks sang backing vocals on the track, but
refused to be acknowledged.

For those old enough to remember the show, do you
think if they'd (FLMAC) appeared on the show that it
would have magically kept the real-life couples together?
Remember that ship was magical, there's no way that
crew would have let the Mac split apart. Even John
would have been happy with Isaac making sure everyone
was spirited.

While this is probably common knowledge the character
Tattoo, played by Herve' Villechaize on Fantasy Island
can thank Fleetwood Mac for their inspiration to use a
dwarf on the show. Aaron Spelling said in an interview
at the time that he had no intention to use a dwarf for
the character Tattoo, but he kept seeing one of his
children's copy of Fleetwood Mac's The White Album
lying around. And it was though a light bulb went off in
his head. I believe you all know the rest of the story.

How does all this tie-in with Ken Caillat you ask? If you
look closely at his mixing chair it's made of Corinthian Leather.

[jellyman10]

Does anyone remember the details of the story Stevie told in the early '80s about how she loved the Heartbreakers so much in 1978 that she practiced her Russian ballet to the You're Gonna Get It album? From there, she wangled a meeting with Jimmy Iovine for the first time backstage at a Fleetwood Mac concert at the L.A. Forum in 1979. Tom Petty brought Jimmy backstage, and she asked him at that meeting to produce her first solo album (which had no release date yet, but she had already signed with Modern).

Do I have this right or have I screwed it up?

Danny Goldberg says in his book that Stevie was demoing stuff with someone else (I think it was Tom Moncreiff) and that some bigwig came down, saw what they were doing - apparently not terribly good: Stevie singing off key and the collaborator not taking her to task for it - and said they had to get her a 'real' producer.

Goldberg and Paul Fishkin wanted Iovine, but Stevie wasn't keen on a 'New York' vibe. Somehow, though, they got Tom Petty into the studio where Stevie was working and he told her Iovine was great, so she agreed to meet him.

Then (and I love this bit), Jimmy came to her house as Marina del Rey, and Stevie took him for a walk on the beach, then came back and it had been decided that he was going to produce. Also, one week later, they were living together as well. :woohoo:

[CADreaming]

Continuing with The Love Boat theme...

If someone out there in computerland has a
copy of the picture with Ken working his magic
at the mixing board while Jack Jones, Paul Williams,
Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham look on -
please post it here. Some suggest that Buckingham
& Nicks sang backing vocals on the track, but
refused to be acknowledged.

For those old enough to remember the show, do you
think if they'd (FLMAC) appeared on the show that it
would have magically kept the real-life couples together?
Remember that ship was magical, there's no way that
crew would have let the Mac split apart. Even John
would have been happy with Isaac making sure everyone
was spirited.

While this is probably common knowledge the character
Tattoo, played by Herve' Villechaize on Fantasy Island
can thank Fleetwood Mac for their inspiration to use a
dwarf on the show. Aaron Spelling said in an interview
at the time that he had no intention to use a dwarf for
the character Tattoo, but he kept seeing one of his
children's copy of Fleetwood Mac's The White Album
lying around. And it was though a light bulb went off in
his head. I believe you all know the rest of the story.

How does all this tie-in with Ken Caillat you ask? If you
look closely at his mixing chair it's made of Corinthian Leather.

:lol::lol::lol:

:thumbsup:

[jellyman10]

Also, I know I'm late to the whole Ken "drama", but I must say I took against him rather deeply when he said this in his Q&A right here on the Ledge ages and ages ago:

"A note to all you fans: Sometimes I think you fans think we're creating a religious experience -- it's just music and it is just a job for myself and for the band."

To which I'd just say, Ken, if you're reading:

"A note to all you journeyman producers who get rattled when it's brought home that people are only interested in you because of your association with someone else who is more beloved: Sometimes I think you journeymen producers think we fans only buy music because we already bought everything else we really 'need' and had some cash left over -- but it gives many of us joy, and meaning, and can inspire us in dark times. A bit like religion, in fact, complete with flocks of middle men who want to fleece the faithful for every last cent. Now, go away."

[cliffdweller]

Does anyone remember the details of the story Stevie told in the early '80s about how she loved the Heartbreakers so much in 1978 that she practiced her Russian ballet to the You're Gonna Get It album? From there, she wangled a meeting with Jimmy Iovine for the first time backstage at a Fleetwood Mac concert at the L.A. Forum in 1979. Tom Petty brought Jimmy backstage, and she asked him at that meeting to produce her first solo album (which had no release date yet, but she had already signed with Modern).

Jimmy Iovine talks about how he came to produce Bella Donna and a little bit about Stevie and the recording of that record in the current issue of Rolling Stone. He also talks about recording Petty, Bruce and U2. It was all very interesting.

[Dodfather]

Jeez... I go away for a few days and miss all this! This interview does appear pretty damning but I'm going to have a good look through the thread before commenting much further. I will soon though, particularly in respect to how Ken just seems frustrated with the "drama" that so needlessly surrounds the band.

[Jondalar]

My book just came, I thought it was going to have more pics, but can't wait to start reading.

[darkcat]

mine came today as well. I just started reading it, interesting so far.

[louielouie2000]

mine came today as well. I just started reading it, interesting so far.

Definitely keep us informed of your impressions. Feel free to start a thread dedicated to your book review if you'd like. :wavey:

[Dodfather]

My book is on the way from Amazon.com (US) so it'll be here in about a week I'd say. I can't wait (I Can't Wait) to read it.

As regards this intereview from Ken, the overwhelming impression I get is that he's just frustrated at the behaviour of the band members in recent years, or at least the fact that they allow management to behave in what he perceives as an unprofessional manner. In a way it's the same gripes we've had on The Ledge, just expressed a little more colourfully!

On a side note.. it's nice to see louie back to posting a little more! Howe are you? :)

[PenguinHead]

But, Leif Garrett was huge when he appeared on Family. The Doobie Brothers were in What's Happening. Whitney Houston was on Silver Spoons, Friends had a lot of music artists guest - the list is endless really. For as many washed up singers (and actors) there have been just as many popular artists who have made cameos on daytime soaps, hit sitcoms and nighttime dramas as a vehicle for promoting themselves and their current hit and getting their face out there.

I remember seeing that episode of What's Happening. The signiture line from a cast member was 'Which Doobie You Be? lol

[jbrownsjr]

My book is on the way from Amazon.com (US) so it'll be here in about a week I'd say. I can't wait (I Can't Wait) to read it.

As regards this intereview from Ken, the overwhelming impression I get is that he's just frustrated at the behaviour of the band members in recent years, or at least the fact that they allow management to behave in what he perceives as an unprofessional manner. In a way it's the same gripes we've had on The Ledge, just expressed a little more colourfully!

On a side note.. it's nice to see louie back to posting a little more! Howe are you? :)

I'm almost done with the book and it's an amazing read!!

[PenguinHead]

I'm almost done with the book and it's an amazing read!!

Glad to hear that. I'm waiting for the book to show up in my mailbox.

I think the books written by people involved with Fleetwood Mac offer objective perspectives and more revealing realities/stories than any of the band members are capable of or willing to write.

The yearning of some fans for Stevie to write a book is somewhat laughable to me - the assumption that she's going to reveal things we don't already know. She lacks a scholarly intellect and would have to rely heavily on a ghostwriter if she wants to publish a book with any literal integrity. And, given Stevie's fuzzy memory and inclination for revising history, the content would be mannered and stilted. History is certainly somewhat manipulated in any tell-all book or autobiography. Yet, the unique perspectives of people who associated with the band, I believe, are far more accurate in terms of illuminating certain aspects of a band member's character profile.

Just like with Carol Ann Harris, some fans are quick to villify Ken if they read something that seems unsavory about the members -- anything that makes them seem too human, less than perfect, with faults, poor behaviors, bad intentions, etc... The battle cry seems to center around suspicions that the authors' are being deliberately salacious, stretching the truth solely for the purpose of selling more books, books that won't have universal Oprah appeal; it's a limited market, mostly consisting of the band's fanbase. Sure, as anyone would, the authors' would like to see a profit for their efforts. But that doesn't discredit them for telling their stories from their own personal viewpoint, warts and all.

[dnightshade]

I think the books written by people involved with Fleetwood Mac offer more objective perspectives and more reveaing realities/stories than any of the band members could actually write.
I have to disagree. So far the only "autobiography" by a member of the Rumours line-up was written by Mick and he basically took articles that had been written in various magazines by journalists and turned them into his own "experiences." Come on . . . Because his book was disappointingly vanilla doesn't mean memoirs of the other bandmates woud be similar. However, there is a measure of respect that needs to be considered, and confidences that need to be kept before anyone can tell it like it really was.
She lacks a scholarly intellect and would have to rely heavily on a ghostwriter if she intended to publish a book with any integrity. And given Stevie's fuzzy memory and inclination for revising history, the content would be full of carefully crafted preconceptions.
Are you serious?
Just like with Carol Ann Harris, some fans are quick to villify Ken if they read something that seems unsavory about the members -- things that reveal them to appear human, with faults, bad behaviors, etc... .
I think at this point the all-too-human flaws of members of the band are well-known and well-documented, so I'm not sure why anyone would take offense if someone wrote a truthful account of an incident. I think the intent of an author, like Carol Ann Harris, is what comes into question.
Sure, as anyone would, the authors' would like to see a profit for their efforts. But that doesn't discredit them for telling their stories, from their own personal viewpoint.
The key phrase to this entire post. Personal viewpoints aren't always pure fact.

[David]

The yearning of some fans for Stevie to write a book is somewhat laughable to me - the assumption that she's going to reveal things we don't already know. She lacks a scholarly intellect and would have to rely heavily on a ghostwriter if she wants to publish a book with any literal integrity.Any biography she'd ever write would certainly be a bizarre artifact, but I think she's just about the least likely person in and around Fleetwood Mac to write one. A biography is a sustained narrative, more or less, and that just isn't what she does (based on all the stuff we've heard her say or seen her write in letters, journal pages, album notes, song lyrics, etc.). When she writes anything, she writes in impressionistic style: heavily reliant on sensations, emotions, moods, and her personal symbolism, microbursts of revelation, facets of light that reflect this or that depending on the angle you look at everything. That's why all her fans always say that they can interpret her songs in dozens of different ways. I doubt she's inclined to maintain a narrative, and I don't think she'd ever stoop to using a ghostwriter (unless he was equally interested in ghosts).

But maybe one day she'll publish her book of "stories," "poems," and "dreams," or whatever that long-neglected project was going to be.

Yet, the unique perspectives of people who associated with the band, I believe, are far more accurate in terms of illuminating certain aspects of a band member's character profile.Best of all would be (or would have been) a skilled biographer--someone with training in research and history writing--who is authorized to write the whole Mac biography, but someone with a lot more tenacity than Sam Graham. I used to think Albert Goldman would have written the ne plus ultra of Fleetwood Mac biographies. I can't imagine who would or could do it these days, unless it be one of those aging critics: David Gans, John Rockwell, Steve Pond, Connie Johnson, Ken Tucker, or the like. Actually, I would love to see a Mac bio written by Ken Tucker.

[jbrownsjr]

I think her biography might be amazing if she had someone help her focus. Ken is just covering Rumours. Stevie has 1971-present. That's a ton of information, memories, photographs, recollections. etc.

I would love it if Stevie titled her book, "Blame it on my Wild Heart", a biography about the performance career of Stevie Nicks.

I would buy that book in a heartbeat. Because no matter what anyone says about Stevie Nicks, she is a treasure to me. Warts and all...

Having said that Ken's book is absolutely incredible.

[jbrownsjr]

Glad to hear that. I'm waiting for the book to show up in my mailbox.

I think the books written by people involved with Fleetwood Mac offer objective perspectives and more revealing realities/stories than any of the band members are capable of or willing to write.

The yearning of some fans for Stevie to write a book is somewhat laughable to me - the assumption that she's going to reveal things we don't already know. She lacks a scholarly intellect and would have to rely heavily on a ghostwriter if she wants to publish a book with any literal integrity. And, given Stevie's fuzzy memory and inclination for revising history, the content would be mannered and stilted. History is certainly somewhat manipulated in any tell-all book or autobiography. Yet, the unique perspectives of people who associated with the band, I believe, are far more accurate in terms of illuminating certain aspects of a band member's character profile.

Just like with Carol Ann Harris, some fans are quick to villify Ken if they read something that seems unsavory about the members -- anything that makes them seem too human, less than perfect, with faults, poor behaviors, bad intentions, etc... The battle cry seems to center around suspicions that the authors' are being deliberately salacious, stretching the truth solely for the purpose of selling more books, books that won't have universal Oprah appeal; it's a limited market, mostly consisting of the band's fanbase. Sure, as anyone would, the authors' would like to see a profit for their efforts. But that doesn't discredit them for telling their stories from their own personal viewpoint, warts and all.

I enjoy reading about FMAC period. Especially getting inside their heads about how they recorded. I am a musician that had spent a lot of time in a dark studio.

Carol's book was awesome because I felt like I got to go on tour with them. Ken's book is fun because I feel like I am privy to how the politics work in the band, and how they actually produce music amongst being constantly f*** up.

Christine's portrayal has been consistant with Mick, Carol and now Ken's book. Classy (yet curses a lot), loud laugher, respectful yet powerful when she wants to be. Added a lot of extra instruments to Rumours. Even played Vibes on Dreams. Love that she wrote Songbird on the spot.

Lindsey same thing in all 3 books. Great musician, genius producer, difficult to work with, unhappy, beats and strangles women, and strangles and verbally abuses Ken. Rubs his hands a lot in excitement. Very much cares about the music.

John is very quiet until he gets drunk. Very much cares about the music and his contributions. Mood swings with the cocktails.

Mick and Stevie are really the focus of this Rumours book. Lindsey is.

Oh and Ken called Stevie "Lindsey" when they first met. That is really funny. I wonder if he said it "LINDSAY" lol

[AliceLover]

I've tried to respond to Ken's article several times, but for whatever reason, kept baffling me to a point. At first, I got upset about his comments about the band being nasty to each other and their co-workers, but at the end of the day I think he was pretty spot on (minus the jab about taking care of prior employees related to the band, aka Wong).

What gets me the most about this interview is how he says "they could be doing so well." I really think he has a point there. Fleetwood Mac could have a huge career right now if they wanted, they just can't seem to get their sh*t together.

At the time, I thought Say You Will was a solid Fleetwood Mac album. However, as time has passed, I like it less and less. I am a huge supporter of Lindseys production skills, but those songs just didn't bite in the long run. If a future mac album has the strength of Gift of Screws, Seeds We Sow, and In Your Dreams, I'm sure it would blow SYW out of the water.

As much as I love Fleetwood Mac as a band, I think they're time as a unit has been wasted since Say You Will. Stevie and Lindsey's solo projects have sparked emotions in me that early FM albums did for me. I'll be thrilled if they put out a new project, but if another GH tour is in the works, I'll be bummed.

[jbrownsjr]

I've tried to respond to Ken's article several times, but for whatever reason, kept baffling me to a point. At first, I got upset about his comments about the band being nasty to each other and their co-workers, but at the end of the day I think he was pretty spot on (minus the jab about taking care of prior employees related to the band, aka Wong).

What gets me the most about this interview is how he says "they could be doing so well." I really think he has a point there. Fleetwood Mac could have a huge career right now if they wanted, they just can't seem to get their sh*t together.

At the time, I thought Say You Will was a solid Fleetwood Mac album. However, as time has passed, I like it less and less. I am a huge supporter of Lindseys production skills, but those songs just didn't bite in the long run. If a future mac album has the strength of Gift of Screws, Seeds We Sow, and In Your Dreams, I'm sure it would blow SYW out of the water.

As much as I love Fleetwood Mac as a band, I think they're time as a unit has been wasted since Say You Will. Stevie and Lindsey's solo projects have sparked emotions in me that early FM albums did for me. I'll be thrilled if they put out a new project, but if another GH tour is in the works, I'll be bummed.

It does seem like they got a bit big for their britches. I, like you, can't listen to SYW but enjoy GOS. I think Christine should have stayed for one more album and tour. Dance was a reunion. But after all is said and done, if they could be in the studio and do an album (not at LB's house) it might be a nice career for them.

[SteveMacD]

I think the big problem for people like Ken is that they don't see the band as being rock stars. They see them as just regular people with whom they have a working relationship. From personal experience, it IS different on the inside.

Remember guys like Ray Lindsey and Richard Dashut knew Stevie and Lindsey back when nobody knew them, when Stevie was waiting tables at Big Boy. Hell, Ray Lindsey drove Stevie to the Mexican restaurant for that first meeting! Judy Wong was at that meeting. Is it fair to expect them to be all that impressed by the band's fame, to look at the band like they're rock icons? And, I agree, the band could do a better job in the loyalty department. These weren’t just fly-by-night people leeching onto the band. They were critical pieces of the machine.

[jbrownsjr]

I think the big problem for people like Ken is that they don't see the band as being rock stars. They see them as just regular people with whom they have a working relationship. From personal experience, it IS different on the inside.

Remember guys like Ray Lindsey and Richard Dashut knew Stevie and Lindsey back when nobody knew them, when Stevie was waiting tables at Big Boy. Hell, Ray Lindsey drove Stevie to the Mexican restaurant for that first meeting! Judy Wong was at that meeting. Is it fair to expect them to be all that impressed by the band's fame, to look at the band like they're rock icons? And, I agree, the band could do a better job in the loyalty department. These weren’t just fly-by-night people leeching onto the band. They were critical pieces of the machine.

Very critical! And people like Richard, Ray, Ken and Judy are really beautiful people. They cared very much about these "rock stars".

[David]

Christine's portrayal has been consistant with Mick, Carol and now Ken's book. Classy (yet curses a lot), loud laugher, respectful yet powerful when she wants to be. Added a lot of extra instruments to Rumours. Even played Vibes on Dreams. Love that she wrote Songbird on the spot.Didn't she make some amusingly nasty comment about Sharon and Mindy during the years they used to sing backups for Fleetwood Mac sets? It was something like "I want them to stand where I won't see them."

Christine is a treasure.

Lindsey same thing in all 3 books. Great musician, genius producer, difficult to work with, unhappy, beats and strangles women, and strangles and verbally abuses Ken.I wonder whether he ever strangled any of the other artists he did session work for, from Walter Egan to the Dream Academy to ???

[jbrownsjr]

Didn't she make some amusingly nasty comment about Sharon and Mindy during the years they used to sing backups for Fleetwood Mac sets? It was something like "I want them to stand where I won't see them."

Christine is a treasure.

I wonder whether he ever strangled any of the other artists he did session work for, from Walter Egan to the Dream Academy to ???

Kim Carnes, Bonnie Rait, Eric Clapton...

[bombaysaffires]

Kim Carnes, Bonnie Rait, Eric Clapton...


John Stewart had commented that Lindsey was brilliant, yes, but verrry difficult to work with...

Maybe that reputation got out and that's why he suddenly just seemed to not be producing anyone outside of FMac after just a few years in the band.

[jbrownsjr]

John Stewart had commented that Lindsey was brilliant, yes, but verrry difficult to work with...

Maybe that reputation got out and that's why he suddenly just seemed to not be producing anyone outside of FMac after just a few years in the band.

You might be right.. never thought of that..

[Dodfather]

Bonnie Raitt

I love Bonnie Raitt and had no idea Lindsey did session work for her. What album is this on? I have to go and play it! I know of Bonnie's work with Christine on No Way To Treat A Lady but no other Fleetwood Mac connection.

[michelej1]

John Stewart had commented that Lindsey was brilliant, yes, but verrry difficult to work with...



Really? I hadn't heard that. In fact, from everything I'd read Stewart kind of gave the impression that Lindsey was rather casual and laid back as a producer, even if FM had an entirely different perspective, just turning those knobs 'til they sounded like he wanted.

I do remember Egan saying that it was difficult working with both Stevie and Lindsey as his producers and that they had to be in the studio separately for it to work.

Michele

[jbrownsjr]

I love Bonnie Raitt and had no idea Lindsey did session work for her. What album is this on? I have to go and play it! I know of Bonnie's work with Christine on No Way To Treat A Lady but no other Fleetwood Mac connection.

I thought both Christine and Lindsey worked with her. It's been so long I can't recall.

[SteveMacD]

I thought both Christine and Lindsey worked with her. It's been so long I can't recall.
I know LB and BR played on Zevon's 1976 album. Of course, Rick Vito is the one who she's most heavily associated with.

[michelej1]

I wonder whether he ever strangled any of the other artists he did session work for, from Walter Egan to the Dream Academy to ???

I don't believe the strangling stories, actually. But it does make me laugh because Lindsey has talked about hearing GYOW on the radio and the DJ said something he didn't like and he said he was on his way over to the radio station explaining that he was a lot feistier then than he is now. It just makes me wonder what he intended to do when he got to the radio station? Strangle the disc jockey?

Didn't CAH say that after their house was robbed Lindsey got a gun? That's scary stuff. Clearly, he didn't need one.

Michele

[cliffdweller]

I don't believe the strangling stories, actually. But it does make me laugh because Lindsey has talked about hearing GYOW on the radio and the DJ said something he didn't like and he said he was on his way over to the radio station explaining that he was a lot feistier then than he is now. It just makes me wonder what he intended to do when he got to the radio station? Strangle the disc jockey?

Didn't CAH say that after their house was robbed Lindsey got a gun? That's scary stuff. Clearly, he didn't need one.

Michele

Yeah, this whole "Lindsey the Strangler" stuff cracks me up. Not so funny if it's true, but how could it be? Who would continue to hang around/work with someone who once strangled them? What I'm picturing in my mind is Lindsey pretend strangling people in the studio, kind of in a cartoonish way. Maybe that's what happened and it got overblown? :laugh:

[cliffdweller]

The yearning of some fans for Stevie to write a book is somewhat laughable to me - the assumption that she's going to reveal things we don't already know. She lacks a scholarly intellect and would have to rely heavily on a ghostwriter if she wants to publish a book with any literal integrity.

Stevie's book would have to be better than CAH's book. THAT was a BADLY written book. Fun read and escapist, yes. Well-written, hell no.

But more to the point, would you want a scholarly, intellectual biography about Stevie and The Mac? I think Stevie would be more than capable of writing a good autobiography. It's not like she's writing a thesis on post-modernism.

[jbrownsjr]

I don't believe the strangling stories, actually. But it does make me laugh because Lindsey has talked about hearing GYOW on the radio and the DJ said something he didn't like and he said he was on his way over to the radio station explaining that he was a lot feistier then than he is now. It just makes me wonder what he intended to do when he got to the radio station? Strangle the disc jockey?

Didn't CAH say that after their house was robbed Lindsey got a gun? That's scary stuff. Clearly, he didn't need one.

Michele

Why would Ken say Lindsey's vein's were bulging out of his neck and that he was not able to breath if it was a pretend strangle?

[poetinmyheart]

Why would Ken say Lindsey's vein's were bulging out of his neck and that he was not able to breath if it was a pretend strangle?

I'm inclined to believe the strangling stories, though I don't like to. Lindsey clearly had stuff going on back then and demons that he has since tackled. I am in no way condoning that behaviour, however none of them were angels and in my opinion it's bad taste for Ken to put it in the book. Just my opinion though.

[michelej1]

Why would Ken say Lindsey's vein's were bulging out of his neck and that he was not able to breath if it was a pretend strangle?

Wrong quote excerpted. I didn't say it was a pretend strangle.

However, with CAH describing the night they went to see Elvis Costello, the people at the club thought that Lindsey was caressing her and they complimented her on having such an affectionate, attentive boyfriend. So, I gather that that particular chokehold was not a forceful strangle.

Michele

[michelej1]

Yeah, this whole "Lindsey the Strangler" stuff cracks me up.

Well, yes, because strangling is a rather unusual form of violence. A punch is a lot more common. Also, strangling takes time. It's like zombies. No one is afraid of zombies because they are slow moving. You see them coming and have lots of time to act as they prepare to eat your flesh.

Obviously, Lindsey would have the advantage over women. He's physically stronger. So, he could grab them and strangle away.

But it's much more difficult to strangle a man, who is as strong as you are, can defend himself and who sees the strangle approaching. Michele

[jbrownsjr]

Well, yes, because strangling is a rather unusual form of violence. A punch is a lot more common. Also, strangling takes time. It's like zombies. No one is afraid of zombies because they are slow moving. You see them coming and have lots of time to act as they prepare to eat your flesh.

Obviously, Lindsey would have the advantage over women. He's physically stronger. So, he could grab them and strangle away.

But it's much more difficult to strangle a man, who is as strong as you are, can defend himself and who sees the strangle approaching. Michele

I don't know if you've read the book yet Michele, but there's also an account of Lindsey punching his date from NoCal in the face. Ken did not see this incident however, making it "hearsay". The girl Lindsey was dating, Christina, ran into the studio with a marked face and accused LB of punching her in the face to Ken and Richard.

[michelej1]

I don't know if you've read the book yet Michele, but there's also an account of Lindsey punching his date from NoCal in the face. Ken did not see this incident however, making it "hearsay". The girl Lindsey was dating, Christina, ran into the studio with a marked face and accused LB of punching her in the face to Ken and Richard.

If we're collecting punches, Javier said that Lindsey also took a swipe at him, for upsetting Stevie.

Michele

[jbrownsjr]

Stevie's book would have to be better than CAH's book. THAT was a BADLY written book. Fun read and escapist, yes. Well-written, hell no.

But more to the point, would you want a scholarly, intellectual biography about Stevie and The Mac? I think Stevie would be more than capable of writing a good autobiography. It's not like she's writing a thesis on post-modernism.

I really really really want Stevie to write a book. And yes CAH was horribly written. Like reading a 6th grade book.

[sodascouts]

strangling is a rather unusual form of violence.

That's why I believe it. If you're going to make up something, you'd just go for the obvious punching. Instead, we have three different incidents of strangling - one with Ken Caillat, one with Carol Ann Harris, and one with Stevie (the latter being attested to by the whole band - I remember John making the strangling gesture one time when discussing it).

So either everyone is lying/exaggerating, or Lindsey for some reason acts out violently in that unusual way when he is enraged.

However, I choose to believe he's put that behind him and is now the sweet guy he appears to be.

[Jondalar]

Stevie will write a book because it will cause album and single sales. That and biopic movie is her last move. She is saving it. She is not dumb.

[SteveMacD]

That's why I believe it. If you're going to make up something, you'd just go for the obvious punching. Instead, we have three different incidents of strangling - one with Ken Caillat, one with Carol Ann Harris, and one with Stevie (the latter being attested to by the whole band - I remember John making the strangling gesture one time when discussing it).
John is why I'm inclined to believe the stories.

[michelej1]

That's why I believe it. If you're going to make up something, you'd just go for the obvious punching. Instead, we have three different incidents of strangling - one with Ken Caillat, one with Carol Ann Harris, and one with Stevie (the latter being attested to by the whole band - I remember John making the strangling gesture one time when discussing it).

So either everyone is lying/exaggerating, or Lindsey for some reason acts out violently in that unusual way .

Stevie said that Lindsey was going to kill her. Mick said he had her over the hood of a car and slapped her Christine did not comment on that incident. John made the strangling gesture. I would not say that the whole band attested to a strangling.

Michele

[louielouie2000]

I really really really want Stevie to write a book. And yes CAH was horribly written. Like reading a 6th grade book.

How is her book any worse than Stevie's journal entries/freeform prose which have been posted on the Nicksfix? :shrug:

I love Stevie to death, but every~ single~ incomplete~ sentence~ ending~ with~ these~ things~ drives~ me~ bonkers~. It's~ like~ something~ a~ 9~ year~ old~ girl~ would~ do~.

[SteveMacD]

Stevie said that Lindsey was going to kill her. Mick said he had her over the hood of a car and slapped her Christine did not comment on that incident. John made the strangling gesture. I would not say that the whole band attested to a strangling.
Whatever the case, it was still pretty violent.

[michelej1]

Whatever the case, it was still pretty violent.

I wasn't making a non-violence argument.

Michele

[MrStevie]

Whatever the case, it was still pretty violent.

The man has issues. Worse, all the people attest to his violent behavior but nobody ever did a damn thing about it. :mad:

He abused them. He abused women in their presence. Everybody let it slide! :eek:

Nobody minds tattling now. :rolleyes: Why not when it mattered? WTF? :sorry:

[jbrownsjr]

How is her book any worse than Stevie's journal entries/freeform prose which have been posted on the Nicksfix? :shrug:

I love Stevie to death, but every~ single~ incomplete~ sentence~ ending~ with~ these~ things~ drives~ me~ bonkers~. It's~ like~ something~ a~ 9~ year~ old~ girl~ would~ do~.

HAHAHAHA!!!! I love you louie!! that was really funny...

[bombaysaffires]

Having spent many years as a domestic violence counselor, you'd be surprised at how subtle to outside observation serious dv can often be. As well, the real, nasty violence often happens outside of public view, in privacy at home, and when the offender is in public all he has to do is give certain signals to the victim who knows what they mean-- 'I'm pissed off now and you are REALLY going to get it when we get out of here and get home'. The hand on her neck could easily have been a lot harder than it would seem to others (with her long hair how could anyone else really see how hard he was squeezing) and even if it "wasn't that hard" it may well have been intended to let her know how displeased he was and how much she was going to pay later. All speculation of course, but within the world of domestic violence, that's usually how it works.

I do believe he had anger management issues that erupted in physical violence. Do I know for a fact? Obviously not. But there's enough "leakage" in the protective screen around his behavior and consistency in the stories (him losing control and getting into some sort of physical aggression with someone) that it rings very realistic in my experience.

I suspect he was violent with Stevie throughout their relationship. I think she's kept quiet about it and put up with it for however long because he a)probably felt bad about it later and expressed some kind of regret (a common behavior, that doesn't stop repeats) and b) this may be harsh, but she wanted to be a star whatever it took....and no one was going to rock the FM success boat....and I would suspect that if Stevie wasn't going to make an issue out of it, no one else in the band was going to.

I've always found LBs comments to Stevie on the webcam footage in Destiny Rules about "making up for things in the past" between them very interesting. It does seem like he's had a LOT of shrinkage (i.e. therapy with a shrink) over the years and worked through a lot of his demons...but I think he had some pretty fierce ones.

All of course is just my opinion and YMMV.

[michelej1]

The hand on her neck could easily have been a lot harder than it would seem to others (with her long hair how could anyone else really see how hard he was squeezing) and even if it "wasn't that hard" it may well have been intended to let her know how displeased he was and how much she was going to pay later.

Yeah, that happens. Indeed, she wrote in the book that she did pay later. But she didn't describe the Costello incident as a warning of things to come or suggest that she perceived it as threatening because she knew worse was coming when they were alone that evening.

People, abusive mates and parents, bullies, etc., can all menace with a look, there's no doubt about that. But I don't think that's what Carol was describing in that passage, that she was scared because she knew worse was promised. I think she was describing an attack that didn't look like one to anyone else.

As for Lindsey, the fact that he said to Mojo, "If I kicked her . . . " is an acknowledgment that whether or not he remembers the incident, he is not denying that he had the propensity to do something like that: kick Stevie. That coupled with the fact that she (presumably, Mojo doesn't say which one of them spoke actually, the man or the woman) directly asked him if he remembered when he threw that guitar at her, says that she was saying in his presence that he threw a guitar at her and he wasn't denying it.

So, I don't say that he isn't violent.

I just don't believe the strangling stuff.

Although, I do take note of his habit of hugging people by holding their neck in the crook of his elbow. Could be related to strangling. I don't know.

Michele

[henryscutter]

Having spent many years as a domestic violence counselor, you'd be surprised at how subtle to outside observation serious dv can often be. As well, the real, nasty violence often happens outside of public view, in privacy at home, and when the offender is in public all he has to do is give certain signals to the victim who knows what they mean-- 'I'm pissed off now and you are REALLY going to get it when we get out of here and get home'. The hand on her neck could easily have been a lot harder than it would seem to others (with her long hair how could anyone else really see how hard he was squeezing) and even if it "wasn't that hard" it may well have been intended to let her know how displeased he was and how much she was going to pay later. All speculation of course, but within the world of domestic violence, that's usually how it works.

I do believe he had anger management issues that erupted in physical violence. Do I know for a fact? Obviously not. But there's enough "leakage" in the protective screen around his behavior and consistency in the stories (him losing control and getting into some sort of physical aggression with someone) that it rings very realistic in my experience.

I suspect he was violent with Stevie throughout their relationship. I think she's kept quiet about it and put up with it for however long because he a)probably felt bad about it later and expressed some kind of regret (a common behavior, that doesn't stop repeats) and b) this may be harsh, but she wanted to be a star whatever it took....and no one was going to rock the FM success boat....and I would suspect that if Stevie wasn't going to make an issue out of it, no one else in the band was going to.

I've always found LBs comments to Stevie on the webcam footage in Destiny Rules about "making up for things in the past" between them very interesting. It does seem like he's had a LOT of shrinkage (i.e. therapy with a shrink) over the years and worked through a lot of his demons...but I think he had some pretty fierce ones.

All of course is just my opinion and YMMV.

I tend to agree with this- Only those who were in the relationships or very close to them know the extent of the violence. As long a there is a franchise to protect you wont hear much from the band members. IMHO it is the reason S&L broke up. I am glad everyone survived and got the help they needed.

[MrStevie]

I tend to agree with this- Only those who were in the relationships or very close to them know the extent of the violence. As long a there is a franchise to protect you wont hear much from the band members. IMHO it is the reason S&L broke up. I am glad everyone survived and got the help they needed.

I agree with you henry. Everyone was protecting the franchise. Doesn't that piss you off? It does me. :mad:

We only heard about LB's violence after he quit FM, not before. All the violent acts insiders confess are events that took place before 1987. So are we supposed to believe he's cured from therapy, or we're not hearing about any recent violence because it's business as usual again? Everybody's protecting the francise.:confused:

[Dodfather]

I love Stevie to death, but every~ single~ incomplete~ sentence~ ending~ with~ these~ things~ drives~ me~ bonkers~. It's~ like~ something~ a~ 9~ year~ old~ girl~ would~ do~.

Yes! As someone who marks a lot of student essays (high school and uni/college) I just want to get out my pen and score right through any of that when I see it!