Seeds We Sow -- First Impressions

[michelej1]

Me, too. Today's selection is the line "touched me soft and slow" from Seeds We Sow. SwS has been in my bottom two of this album (but, just bottom two of an entire album I really love, not "ick! bottom 2!") but, I gotta say, it's been growing on me once I've totally ignored the Ah...tatatas.



Yes, I think the last verse almost redeems the whole song. Sensual and sad.


Although, I like the electric version of the song all the way through, not just the end -- I still don't believe it belonged on the album though. It doesn't hang with the other songs, even if it's my favorite rendition of SWS. Michele

[Cammie]

Nico...We agree with you...beautiful !!!
Nice to hear She Smiled Sweetly again!
Is there a dvd we can purchase also? :cool:

[k115810]

I've been a die hard Lindsey fan for about 15 years now, but admit I've stopped paying close attention after Gift of Screws was released. I picked up Seeds We Sow out of obligation, and I've listened to nothing else for a week. It's a phenomenal work that I think could possibly top OOTC for me. Obviously, it's too soon to tell, but I feel I can connect with any song on the album, which wasn't the case for either UTS or GOS.

Anyway...reading through this long thread has been a blast. BUT...I'm reading tons of people talking about listening to some of these songs for months. How have you all been hearing these songs before the album release? And how can I get my hands on those versions? ;-)

My theory is that I would've dug GOS more than I did had I not been exposed to half of the album in demo form over the past 10 years, so it was great that I went into Seeds We Sow as a blank slate (except for She Smiled Sweetly, of course).

Also, the electric version of Seeds We Sow is so clearly superior to the acoustic version that I can't believe I haven't seen more mention of it...

-Matt

[Lee]

Well, I've had several run-throughs now. Right now I can say that I do not like it better than GOS. The only song that I always skip on GOS is Time Precious Time. On SWS, I have to start playing it on Rock Away Blind. Weird because I have never had to start a CD in the middle. I do like That's the Way Love Goes though. Some of these songs sound strangely familiar, & some sound like they could have been Fleetwood Mac songs. Illumination has got to be the shortest song ever @ about 2 minutes :shrug:

Lee :)

[michelej1]

Anyway...reading through this long thread has been a blast. BUT...I'm reading tons of people talking about listening to some of these songs for months. How have you all been hearing these songs before the album release?
-Matt

Some people recorded the songs at a concert that Lindsey had in Beverly Hills this April. He filmed it for his upcoming DVD and we got a sneak preview of half of the songs then. Look on Youtube. Do a search for Lindsey Buckingham Saban, because he performed at the Saban theater.

But it sounds like it is a good thing that you did not hear them four months ago, it might have spoiled your current appreciation of the album.

Michele

[TrueFaith77]

Illumination has got to be the shortest song ever @ about 2 minutes :shrug: Lee :)

Compare w/ Tusk:

The Ledge 2:02 vs. Never Make Me Cry 2:14 vs. Illumination 2:17

For further comparison, one of my fave albums of all time is Pink Flag by Wire. Here are the songs shorter than Illumination that album:

"Field Day for the Sundays" – 0:28
"Three Girl Rhumba" – 1:23
"Start to Move" – 1:13
"Brazil" – 0:41
"It's So Obvious" – 0:53
"Surgeon's Girl" – 1:17
"The Commercial" – 0:49
"Straight Line" – 0:44
"106 Beats That" – 1:12
"Mr. Suit" – 1:25
"Fragile" – 1:18
"Different to Me" – 0:43
"Champs" – 1:46
"Feeling Called Love" – 1:22
"1 2 X U" – 1:55

[bangdrum]

Compare w/ Tusk:

The Ledge 2:02 vs. Never Make Me Cry 2:14 vs. Illumination 2:17



Don't forget That's Enough For Me - 1:48!

[Richard B]

Wow. I didn't even realize Illumination is so short! Feels longer.
This album is certainly one of his best. I don't know for sure, but I think Lindsey is in quite a reflective mood, both musically and lyrically, and it really shows in this album. Perhaps, it's just me. I've also been in a very reflective mood recently which really seems to be the connection for me to this album. I've only played it for (1) friend and apparently they've now gone a bit obsessive about it.

[The Chain]

I like it enough, but it's a littler tamer than I was hoping for. And I think he really dropped the ball by not including SWS Electric, Sleeping Around The Corner and by re-recording She Smiled Sweetly.. The GOS 2001 version was so perfect, the guitar, the vocal performance & harmonies, the strings. It really is a shame.

So I decided to tinker with the sequencing, and this is what I came up with. I really liked the way it flowed when I listened to it this way, but I only did it once so only time will tell if it holds up:

Seeds We Sow (Electric)
In Our Own Time
Illumination
Stars Are Crazy
Thats The Way Love Goes
When She Comes Down
Rock Away Blind
One Take
Gone Too Far
Sleeping Around The Corner
End Of Time
She Smiled Sweetly (GOS 2001 outtake)
Seeds We Sow (Acoustic)

[Nico]

That's a great little CD rework you did The Chain (though "Sleeping Around the Corner" just doesn't fit for me). It's been nearly two weeks and I still think this album is a masterpiece. I just love every single song. And SSS doesn't bother me in this version, though I did love the alternate, older version soooooo much. I think what impresses me still about this album is the flow. It has a cohesiveness that wasn't there for GOS for me. And the acoustic songs don't ever drag, like "Time Precious Time" and "Not Too Late" did. I just love it all. I admit that I ADORED his previous two albums (yes, UTS naysayers I still adore the album), but this one just seems so different. It's melancholy but uplifting, melodic, and just so shimmery and beautiful.

I made a copy for my mother and she actually played the whole album all the way through. She thinks he sounds sad on "End Of Time," but it is her favorite song.

[TrueFaith77]

I like it enough, but it's a littler tamer than I was hoping for. And I think he really dropped the ball by not including SWS Electric, Sleeping Around The Corner and by re-recording She Smiled Sweetly.. The GOS 2001 version was so perfect, the guitar, the vocal performance & harmonies, the strings. It really is a shame.

So I decided to tinker with the sequencing, and this is what I came up with. I really liked the way it flowed when I listened to it this way, but I only did it once so only time will tell if it holds up:

Seeds We Sow (Electric)
In Our Own Time
Illumination
Stars Are Crazy
Thats The Way Love Goes
When She Comes Down
Rock Away Blind
One Take
Gone Too Far
Sleeping Around The Corner
End Of Time
She Smiled Sweetly (GOS 2001 outtake)
Seeds We Sow (Acoustic)


You and I had some of the same thoughts, though I THINK I might prefer ending the album with Electric (though opening it that way will ensure you're hooked from the start). I will try your tracklist tonight while I work out. And I really like the sequencing that separates GTF and EOT with SATC. Side 2 needed some pep!

[BTFLCHLD]

just reading the insert, lindsey is sad :(

FAN
stars are crazy
in our own time
thats the way love goes
rock away blind
end of time
she smiled sweetly
seeds we sow

NOT SO MUCH
illumination
when she comes down
one take
gone too far

[TrueFaith77]

Seeds We Sow (Electric)
In Our Own Time
Illumination
Stars Are Crazy
Thats The Way Love Goes
When She Comes Down
Rock Away Blind
One Take
Gone Too Far
Sleeping Around The Corner
End Of Time
She Smiled Sweetly (GOS 2001 outtake)
Seeds We Sow (Acoustic)

Def better than the real thing. However, I WOULD switch acoustic and electric, so electric closes. acoustic is anti-climactic (like the current paired down sss). plus the acoustic goes so nicely into "In our own time"

[elle]

Def better than the real thing. However, I WOULD switch acoustic and electric, so electric closes. acoustic is anti-climactic (like the current paired down sss). plus the acoustic goes so nicely into "In our own time"

ha, i just used this exact same wording when talking to somebody about his closing encore (which is acoustic SWS) - it is anticlimactic ending, i'd rather he ends with something high octane so people are encouraged to get him back for another encore (can you tell i really really want another encore by the time tour makes it to the east coast?).

[wheart]

only played it twice so far but I'm really liking it. My expectations were not that high based on some of the reviews I've been reading but for me Lindsey has come through once again. There's something very comforting about his music to me in that he doesn't change a whole lot from record to record. A new Buckingham solo record feels like getting together with an old (sorry, mature) friend after some time apart and they haven't changed a bit.

This record is kinda a hybrid between his last two, not as produced as GOS and more low-fi than UTS. So far I'm loving That's the way Love Goes and Stars are Crazy (one of his best ever). I like Illumination but the chorus doesn't sound right. To my year, repeating the same line twice sounds awkard but that was probably his point. In a couple of the songs, the choruses sound a little weak, like they need more words or lines to fill up the song. This was probably his intent, as I don't think Lindsey leaves much to chance in his music but I think the phrasing/writing in a couple of the songs could stand some improvement.

[BlueGrass]

Throw in Sleeping Round the Corner and Seeds electric in place of One Take and the album improves a lot. And I agree with the OG She Smiled Sweetly being so much better!

[elle]

so, i got this weird email today from someplace called musictoday saying my CD has shipped... took me awhile to figure out that's about that SWS CD that i bought through ticketmaster some time in june. they are fast :lol:... but at least they did ship it apparently.

[sparky]

I really wanna like Lindsey solo. I really do. I like Law and Order. And Go Insane is brilliant. I think that is a genius work.

The rest I consider recycled Tusk trash.

IMO post GI he stopped evolving as an artist. By that I mean Go Insane.

I wanted to like OOC. I really did. I listened to it twice. It went in a pile. The way it struck me was as if it was weakened Tusk out takes. With seven vocal filters and no punk spirit. You cannot substitute songwriting dynamics with production. The only thing that truly made his Tusk contributions unique and interesting were his stripped down arrangements and lack of real bridges.
And the crude percussion and muted guitar leads.

It was kind of revolutionary at the time. And in retrospect his songs from that era are surprisingly charming in how catchy some of them are.

But that gimmick has come and gone. The last good single Lindsey every wrote was Big Love. And it shows with the acoustic version. It is my maxim that if you cannot sing a song with one guitar or a simple piano line played by an amateur and sing the song that it is not a song. It is not a song. Period. It is by that rule that I denounce a great number of hit songs since about 1992. There is no song there. It is all production.

I could go on for days about this. No matter. But at this point, I feel that everything Lindsey writes and sings feels like it was spit out of a computer.

All the quotes from FM post 97 are laced with "cycles" and "organic." Really? What human being says that in EVERY INTERVIEW? Maybe a person who has been pre programmed by 500 dollar an hour Beverly Hills therapist. Now it is "big machine" or "little machine" in every single interview. Every single one. Does he have a slot in the back of his head that was installed pre Dance? And does a label rep install a chip in that slot telling him what to say? Is there a single word he will say in an interview or onstage that does not sound like it was written by a publicist or a therapist and fed to him?

It really seems as if his every reaction and utterance is pre scripted by a shrink. I don't remember that from 1984. It was not as easy then to track interviews. You had to haunt newsstands then and there was no archive that was immediate. Of course I did that for Stevie - I was a hardcore groupie of hers at that point. I went to the newsstands every week for 15 years to buy every magazine she did a spot in. It makes me wonder if he has some creepy Brian Wilson like guru who feeds him every thing he says to the media over the last fifteen years. There is no trace of a spontaneous reaction in him. Personally or musically. I am not much of a conspiracy theorist, but since about 1994 Lindsey has sounded like a robot. Each record features this canned identical soul less response. And the songs feel the same to me. They feel medicated. Predictable. There is nothing about any of his interviews that veers off course. It makes me extremely uneasy. Of course Stevie is crazy. We know Stevie is crazy. She say unhinged stuff no matter what. He never does. I suspect he is medicated to the gills and psychiatrically controlled within an inch of his life.

His songs are on an auto repeat of frantic over done acoustic virtuosity followed by whispering. Then maybe a variation of first verse, then more frantic instrumental showing off, then a bit of a solo of some sort. Then he screeches something. Out of his vocal range. More insane guitar work. Slam or fade.

Who cares?

Post Go Insane his work to my ears is a bit of Earth some CG Wind and NO Water. And way to much Fire. It has no flow. It is out of balance. It makes my brain hurt. I love his early work. I really do. His Tusk production with all tracks was sublime. He lost it after GOS. I find everything he does since then to be jagged, forced, over whispered, or over guitar picked, over screamed beyond live range and lacking grace. It leaves me feeling cold and unmoved by his calculated manipulation. For all of that "Organic" therapist speak he has spewed post SYW, I find nothing he does on record to be organic at all. Too much wind. No earth. Dry fire and No Water whatsoever.

Massive artistic fail.

[sparky]

I'll just add this as an addendum.

There are a number of immediate sing along moments from IYD. I am not a Lindsey vs. Stevie guy. But AL, SL, and FWIW have great proven hooks. People want to sing along with those. And they do by the thousands at the shows I have seen. You wanna play Big Machine Lindsey? Or even Little Machine? Write a F--king hook already. Just one.

[jellyman10]

^^^ Well, my Tuesday morning just got a lot more interesting. Thank you, Sparky!

I wouldn't go as far as you do - I don't, for example, think he's medicated. But I do think LB gives off massive hints that he has been 'fixed' mentally. Nothing wrong with that, though. I'm all for people getting help. And I will say that I don't think his 'go insane' schtick is/was a pose. I think he is/was someone who did battle inner demons. And his current speil about 'karma' and 'choices' is more revealing than I think he realises.

How this all plays out musically is paradoxically both interesting and not-interesting. The interesting bit is how narrow he's become. Narrow but deep. He says this himself, when he talks about centering on the guitar and what it can do or what he can do with it. So I guess the pleasure for the listener is in how far along LB's mining of that seam you feel you want to go. Personally, I do find it repetitive in an eventually unpleasant way rather sooner than he does. And I hate - just cannot abide - what he does to his voice (and times ten when he does to Stevie's!). I swear, he actually wants to sound unhuman, and I don't want to be sung at by machines, so that's never gonna gel. :mad:

Interesting post. I like the long ones! :xoxo:

Loz

[Regina]

Art is subjective. Calling something an "artistic fail," is a way-too general term, in my opinion. But I'm not calling you out on your reactions. It's no more valid/invalid than anyone else's. That's the beauty of all forms of art.

But I think it's a bit much to suggest that someone who had prior substance abuse issues might be "medicated to the gills," simply because you don't like the way he speaks. And, for the record, I don't care for the canned speeches, either. But I'm not accusing him of being a drugged-out zombie. I think there is NO evidence of this at all. The physical stamina of one of the live shows + age + medication would have sent him to the hospital at the very least.

He is who he is. I watched a hell of a lot of his old interviews. He was repeating himself even then. It's who he is. I don't care for that but...I don't think those speeches are at all geared to repeat customers.

[Fiver]

Much as he adores being in the studio, he'd much rather be there on his own -- as he was for whole great hunks of "Tusk" -- than with Stevie, Christine, John and Mick, since "making a Fleetwood Mac album is sort of like making a movie -- everything is thought out on a conscious level, and then second- or third-guessed. The approach I prefer, though, is more like painting. Painters will tell you that they often begin work with one thing in mind, but that, after a while, the work leads them in a completely different direction.

"It's more of a subconscious process. Working that way, I find that I experience the work a lot more intimately. Being that connected can't help but have a vitalizing effect on the music."

- Lindsey Buckingham, Creem Magazine 1983

I'd say he likes to repeat himself is all.

[bangdrum]

He repeats himself, occasionally gets a new phrase to throw in ("painting vs moviemaking" -> "big movie vs independent film" -> "big machine vs little machine", etc), and I think sometimes he's too bitter about Rumours to notice that people actually WANT him to play more than Big Love over and over. I also agree that he didn't really "take any chances" with SWS, but that doesn't make me dislike the album at all (except Stars). He has his own idea of what he's good at and that's what he wants to show off.

[jellyman10]

I think sometimes he's too bitter about Rumours to notice that people actually WANT him to play more than Big Love over and over.

Actually, I think he notices perfectly well that people would like him to play more than Big Love over and over and that noticing that people want him to do that is exactly what he is bitter about.

His position on this doesn't make a lot of sense, though. He claims to want to follow his muse on principle, but seems to cave on that time and time again. He plays GYOW at solo gigs because people want it. So 'playing what people want' is something he is prepared to do - on principle - even when he's 100% the boss - even when he doesn't have to play nice because FM are so conservative. I'm reminded of Lou Reed playing a gig in New York a few years ago, at which he played the audience two hours of experimental jazz. People walked out. Lou was unrepentant. His attitude was: 'You want Walk On The Wild Side? Go home and play it on CD. This is what I'm doing at the moment.'

His role as the enfant terrible is also spurious in any context outside of FM. I mean, really: how edgy do you have to be to look edgy standing next to Stevie Nicks and Christine McVie? His solo stuff, I agree, has more of a legit claim to be out of the mainstream - but guess what? LB doesn't like earning peanuts, so he keeps a foot in the door of the 'big machine'. But why do this, if it's so artistically difficult and diluted and tainted by having to take seriously the opinions of lesser geniuses? The only credible answer is that he has always enjoyed making music with FM more than he admits and/or he's a breadhead just like Mick - and Stevie and John, and oh yeah, The Eagles.

His 'big vs small machine' schtick also has little credibility artistically because it entails zero risk. I mean, you can claim that one enables the other if that is fundamentally true. In other words, if the small machine could not produce anything without the big machine, then that holds water. But after Rumours, LB could have turned his back forever on FM and never worked a day in his life and raised six kids, never mind three, and bought enough Fruit of the Loom t-shirts to sink a battleship. But he didn't. He kept going back. Why? Personally, I think it was because he suffered a massive, years-long crisis of confidence, made worse by Stevie's solo success without him. So he ran, time and again, back to the place where his status as the bringer of genius was secure, and all the time telling himself - and us, ad nauseum - that it was they who needed him.

The truth is, of course, that LB and FM have benefited mutually from their association. And I know Lindsey is finally beginning to say that other people bring things to the party musically in FM, and even in the old days of BN. So kudos for that, LB - and dare we hope that that spirit of mutual respect could carry into some new FM music? I do hope so.

Loz

[Nico]

I'll just add this as an addendum.

There are a number of immediate sing along moments from IYD. I am not a Lindsey vs. Stevie guy. But AL, SL, and FWIW have great proven hooks. People want to sing along with those. And they do by the thousands at the shows I have seen. You wanna play Big Machine Lindsey? Or even Little Machine? Write a F--king hook already. Just one.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that because SN has singalong songs/hooks that she outshines LB? Or are you just implying that Lindsey needs to write more songs that people can all sing along to because, frankly, I don't agree with that at all. Look, it's nice if people know your words and can sing along to them, but does that make a huge difference for the quality of the material? At the LB show I went to people were definitely singing along to his classic, well-known songs but his album just dropped. I wasn't expecting people to instantly know all the words to IOOT or TTWLG, but certainly I saw many people singing along to the chorus of both songs. I mean, if music is uplifting and resonates with people the way LB struck the crowd of the show I was at, then he is hitting people in a DIFFERENT but still effective way. His live shows are extraordinary and mind-blowing, so maybe I understand if you want more of the "Steal Your Heart Away" or "Never Going Back Again" stuff, but I think he has plenty of hooks on this album. The two songs I mentioned as well as "End Of Time" are plenty hook-y.

And you don't have to agree with me of course, but my aunt who speaks NO ENGLISH and came from Venezuela a week before I took her to the show was singing along to those three songs in the car and at the show immediately. However, Stevie's new album (which I had in my dash and she took with her to borrow for the week) did nothing for her.

Different strokes.:wavey:

[bangdrum]

Yeah, I actually agree with a lot of this. What I mean as far as the Big Love shtick is like when he picks the least interesting/challenging new songs from, say, GOS, to play live and thinks that's the most amazing thing he can give his fans, or despite apparently getting regular requests from the audience for Rock Away Blind (this tour) and Bleed To Love Her (every tour including this one), he just keeps saying, "oh, we'll have to rehearse that" and never gets around to playing it. It's not like most of the audience knows his "hit" solo songs any better than his "obscure" solo songs. He would probably get the same level of applause from the majority of casual concertgoers for playing ANYTHING he's ever done solo.

[BTFLCHLD]

"dont listen to my music
dont buy my albums
dont come to my shows
dont listen to my interviews"

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a152/BTFLCHLD/LINDSEY%20PICS/DASBOOT.jpg

[Nico]

"dont listen to my music
dont buy my albums
dont come to my shows
dont listen to my interviews"

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a152/BTFLCHLD/LINDSEY%20PICS/DASBOOT.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/Framboise_2007/applause.gif

[jellyman10]

"dont listen to my music
dont buy my albums
dont come to my shows
dont listen to my interviews"

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a152/BTFLCHLD/LINDSEY%20PICS/DASBOOT.jpg

:laugh::laugh: It's not true, but I like it.

Here's my problem: Lindsey Buckingham is threatening yet again to try and get involved in making new music with someone whose work I enjoy and look forward to - viz, Stevie Nicks. So unfortunately that makes where his head is at relevant to me.

[Nico]

:laugh::laugh: It's not true, but I like it.

Here's my problem: Lindsey Buckingham is threatening yet again to try and get involved in making new music with someone whose work I enjoy and look forward to - viz, Stevie Nicks. So unfortunately that makes where his head is at relevant to me.

Man, what an inconsiderate man! Threatening to make music with someone, you know, and play his average guitar all over the track and add the subpar harmonies. Damn him. :mad:

(only kidding with you, but you have to understand how it sounds from my end...just a little...)

[BTFLCHLD]

Here's my problem: Lindsey Buckingham is threatening yet again to try and get involved in making new music with someone whose work I enjoy and look forward to - viz, Stevie Nicks. you should be thankful. IYD prettymuch sux.

:laugh: nico

[Nico]

:laugh: nico

Right back at you bb! :wavey:

[Regina]

Did you ever stop to think that this IS the music HE likes? This IS the music he doesn't feel he can produce, in his way, for FM? This is the music he wants to present to the world-no hidden agenda involved? I mean, he's not making a fortune on this tour. I would doubt he's making any profit, frankly.

Maybe his head is not with some bizarro world thing that you expect from him and his opinion of cutting edge or small machinery is HIS opinion, which just doesn't happen to match up with yours. (But, surprisingly, matches up with the majority of people here and ... oh, yeah...in the press. But, what do any of US know?)

[jellyman10]

Man, what an inconsiderate man! Threatening to make music with someone, you know, and play his average guitar all over the track and add the subpar harmonies. Damn him. :mad:

(only kidding with you, but you have to understand how it sounds from my end...just a little...)

Of course I understand. It's very like when people visit the Stevie forum only to point out the 'fact' that LB is her best producer. It's just not the way everyone sees it. He's a good producer, yes, and Stevie has provided him with many of his best songs on which to work. But Jimmy Iovine and John Shanks and Dave Stewart have done as well as LB ever has with her songs, and I think there's a real risk that Lindsey will inhibit Stevie artistically if they work together again. So yes, I do see it as him threatening to do it. And actually, I do think his guitar-playing is limited (I'd never call it average). His harmonies are not subpar, I agree, but I do wish he wouldn't weird them out so much.

Loz

[jellyman10]

IYD prettymuch sux.

:laugh::laugh:
Read a lot of Oscar Wilde, do you?

[jellyman10]

Maybe his head is not with some bizarro world thing that you expect from him and his opinion of cutting edge or small machinery is HIS opinion, which just doesn't happen to match up with yours. (But, surprisingly, matches up with the majority of people here and ... oh, yeah...in the press. But, what do any of US know?)

Well, I suppose the problem is that I'm crediting him with wanting to make sense, and he just doesn't. At length. He doesn't make sense, and he does it at length. And then he starts talking about wanting to work again with someone who just did some of the best music of her career without him. I don't understand how you can't see that there's a legit interest for a Stevie Nicks fan here. :shrug:

[BTFLCHLD]

:laugh::laugh:
Read a lot of Oscar Wilde, do you?
aha. has the thought ever occurred to you to critique yourself?

[jellyman10]

aha. has the thought ever occurred to you to critique yourself?

Oh, of course. And I do. But I'd much rather you did it by engaging with some of the points I've made, beyond just chucking mud at things I've said I like. That's when I enjoy the Ledge the best: when we talk to each other.

[BTFLCHLD]

Oh, of course. And I do. But I'd much rather you did it by engaging with some of the points I've made, beyond just chucking mud at things I've said I like. That's when I enjoy the Ledge the best: when we talk to each other. Why would I engage with someone I don't like? I'd much rather chuck mud.

[Nico]

. But Jimmy Iovine and John Shanks and Dave Stewart have done as well as LB ever has with her songs


See now, that is your opinion. I am a HUGE music fan and I listen to everything. I understand that some people are crazy about her solo stuff, but to me it's very dull. And much of that (not all) has to do with the production. See, Stevie isn't musically that appealing to me. It's her lyrics/voice that really stand out- and that could be different for others but FOR ME those are her two greatest assets. Her songwriting isn't bad, but then I read the linear notes of her recent album and see she pretty much didn't write the music to a bunch of those songs so I can't really rate her that high.

With Lindsey and FM, Lindsey's sublime/shimmery production complemented Stevie's singing and words. They ebbed and flowed so beautifully that I can't find anything to really criticize of hers- on Tusk especially. Long, meandering songs didn't bore me. Nowadays, while I admit IYD was certainly better than most of her other stuff, I simply can't sit through it because there isn't anything that really sticks out for me aside from a few really great songs. She has some highs on here, sure, and I commend Dave Stewart for definitely shining HIMSELF on the album as well. But I just wouldn't say any of the stuff is as great as "Angel," "Sara," "Storms, " "Gold Dust Woman."

And strangely enough, all of my friends who I have played that album for haven't even liked it. They can't get past her voice, which is too bad for them because it's an interesting and strong voice. But what I am trying to say is that FOR YOU, as a Stevie fan, it may be that those other producers were the same/better than LB but for me, as a general music fan, no one brought out the best of Stevie like LB did in early FM. SYW is obviously a controversy because, honestly, I don't think her songs are all that great on there but a few. So I will accept that many SN fans are upset over that but I just...:shrug: I feel like he did a pretty damn good job with what he was given. Maybe "Smile At You" was better in it's original form, but whatever...that one is still out there for people, and she can always remake it. :)

[jellyman10]

Why would I engage with someone I don't like? I'd much rather chuck mud.

Ah well. I know when I'm beat. No harm meant. :wavey:

[jellyman10]

See now, that is your opinion.

Yep, and thanks for replying to it. I have to go out - it's 7.15 pm in the UK - but I'll come back to you on this later, if I may?

[Nico]

Well, I suppose the problem is that I'm crediting him with wanting to make sense, and he just doesn't. At length. He doesn't make sense, and he does it at length. And then he starts talking about wanting to work again with someone who just did some of the best music of her career without him. I don't understand how you can't see that there's a legit interest for a Stevie Nicks fan here. :shrug:

Lindsey makes a lot of sense to me. I'm sorry. He has a vision that is HIS OWN, as Regina eloquently stated. It may not be yours, so it's understandable that you don't have to like it. But to criticize him for not asking sense because he is rather robotic and redundant in his interviews/live banter is being a tad harsh. LB fans poke at him for the speeches, but we have to admit the man has a very strong artistic vision for someone who really has nothing to prove. I think SN fans seem to think that she is so much superior to him because she writes songs that become hits, and when someone creates music with the goal of doing something different FOR HIMSELF it's just not good enough. I don't understand that and I certainly don't agree with it.

For me, the greatest part about FM has always been Lindsey's mad ways. He was relentless in his pursuit of trying to sound different/out there and that followed through in his solo career. If LB can be criticized for anything on this new album it's that he's basically copying HIMSELF, not others. As you grow older, your world becomes smaller. Things that you didn't dream of in your youth mean a hell of a lot now, and Lindsey is simply taking from the lessons he's learned and applying that to his music. For me, his lyrics have grown. I listen to them now with a great deal of affinity and I am often very impressed. Also, I don't agree with your summation of his guitar skills, but then I have seen him live far too many times to really let anyone's opinions on something like that get me down- the man is mesmerizing and I know it.

I respect that you are concerned about whatever collaboration Lindsey will do with Stevie, but I personally feel that he is on an artistic and creative upswing in the past few years. He has the energy of someone far, far younger and still the drive of a man who cares. If anything, I'm thinking she's lucky to have such a partner. If others disagree, well, maybe it won't happen and then you all can be happy and wait for Stevie's next project. :wavey:

[michelej1]

But I think it's a bit much to suggest that someone who had prior substance abuse issues might be "medicated to the gills," simply because you don't like the way he speaks. And, for the record, I don't care for the canned speeches, either. But I'm not accusing him of being a drugged-out zombie.

It would be hard to mistake him for that considering he often interacts with the audience in concert and will spontaneously take a remark they say, make a joke out of it and use it as a running thread throughout the night. Far from being zoned out on stage, he is very alert. He hears what people are saying (and because his venues are so small, he hears what people are saying from rows and rows back). He frequently responds and for those close to him he makes eye contact. He's sharp, hilarious. He gives the speeches by rote, certainly, but he's far from phoning anything else in robotically when he's on stage.

Michele

[elle]

It would be hard to mistake him for that considering he often interacts with the audience in concert and will spontaneously take a remark they say, make a joke out of it and use it as a running thread throughout the night. Far from being zoned out on stage, he is very alert. He hears what people are saying (and because his venues are so small, he hears what people are saying from rows and rows back). He frequently responds and for those close to him he makes eye contact. He's sharp, hilarious. He gives the speeches by rote, certainly, but he's far from phoning anything else in robotically when he's on stage.

having seen a few of LB's shows now, agree with every single word of this!

[jellyman10]

See now, that is your opinion. ....

With Lindsey and FM, Lindsey's sublime/shimmery production complemented Stevie's singing and words. They ebbed and flowed so beautifully that I can't find anything to really criticize of hers- on Tusk especially. Long, meandering songs didn't bore me. Nowadays, while I admit IYD was certainly better than most of her other stuff, I simply can't sit through it because there isn't anything that really sticks out for me aside from a few really great songs. She has some highs on here, sure, and I commend Dave Stewart for definitely shining HIMSELF on the album as well. But I just wouldn't say any of the stuff is as great as "Angel," "Sara," "Storms, " "Gold Dust Woman."

And strangely enough, all of my friends who I have played that album for haven't even liked it. They can't get past her voice, which is too bad for them because it's an interesting and strong voice. But what I am trying to say is that FOR YOU, as a Stevie fan, it may be that those other producers were the same/better than LB but for me, as a general music fan, no one brought out the best of Stevie like LB did in early FM. SYW is obviously a controversy because, honestly, I don't think her songs are all that great on there but a few. So I will accept that many SN fans are upset over that but I just...:shrug: I feel like he did a pretty damn good job with what he was given. Maybe "Smile At You" was better in it's original form, but whatever...that one is still out there for people, and she can always remake it. :)

Can't work out how to separate bits out to address separately, so I've bolded them.

Of course these are my opinions, and I'm willing to modify them if I hear a good argument.

I don't like music that's polished to within an inch of its life. I don't like Tango in the Night, either the track or most of the album. In fact, it's the only Mac album on which I can't bear any of Stevie's songs and I find Lindsey's soulless. I actually think his production there suits Christine's material best of all. But I agree with you almost completely about Tusk: there, Lindsey did a great job with everyone's material. FOR ME, it's his production highpoint with the Mac and he should have left the band for good after that record.

Sidebar re: 'Sara' - interesting that you cite that as an example of Lindsey doing good things with a Stevie song, since the 'cleaning lady' demo shows very clearly that every single important strand of the arrangement of that song was in place before it even got to the Mac. If you believe Annie McLoone, who worked on the demo, the finished track even still has Tom Moncrieff's guitar on it, uncredited. John overdubbed Tom's bassline too - which I was gutted to learn, as it formed the basis of quite a lot of my adoration of John as a bassist for many years! :lol: So I don't give LB much of a shout for the majesty that is 'Sara'. But I do agree that 'Storms' is truly great. The very best thing they ever did together. I love how LB makes an electric guitar sound so tender. Very clever.

I like your observation about Dave Stewart shining on IYD. It's true. But I disagree with the idea that Stevie doesn't shine, in comparison, and there we just have to differ. But it's a valid topic because it's exactly what I'm on about: I think that on IYD Stevie sounds the best she's sounded since the Wild Heart and I think the reason for it is that she's found someone to work with who makes her feel like what she can bring to the party is equal to what they can bring. I think that was the basis of her working relationship with Dave and it is not something she has ever experience, except fleetingly, with Lindsey. That's why I worry that she'll go back into her shell if he gets on board producing her work again.

Having said that, I really like some of the things LB has been saying lately about appreciating what he and Stevie had/have together as a 'musical entity', and I really hope that they can stay in this happier place if they do decide to do another Mac album.

I'm sorry to hear that none of your friends or family enjoyed IYD. I wish it were otherwise, but isn't that a paradox? Solo Stevie has always sold more records than solo Lindsey, but LB fans never want popular tastes to be a measure of quality (they're right, of course). So maybe that makes IYD even better! :p

Thanks for the debate.
Loz

[jellyman10]

Lindsey makes a lot of sense to me. I'm sorry. He has a vision that is HIS OWN, as Regina eloquently stated. It may not be yours, so it's understandable that you don't have to like it. But to criticize him for not asking sense because he is rather robotic and redundant in his interviews/live banter is being a tad harsh.

...

If LB can be criticized for anything on this new album it's that he's basically copying HIMSELF, not others. ..... Also, I don't agree with your summation of his guitar skills, but then I have seen him live far too many times to really let anyone's opinions on something like that get me down- the man is mesmerizing and I know it.

I respect that you are concerned about whatever collaboration Lindsey will do with Stevie, but I personally feel that he is on an artistic and creative upswing in the past few years. He has the energy of someone far, far younger and still the drive of a man who cares. If anything, I'm thinking she's lucky to have such a partner. If others disagree, well, maybe it won't happen and then you all can be happy and wait for Stevie's next project. :wavey:

I didn't say he didn't make sense because he was 'robotic' or repetitive. I said he didn't make sense because he claims that his solo career is artistically richer and/or more valid than what he does with FM without addressing why he keeps going back to FM at all, except to refer vaguely to the notion that the 'big machine' is what 'allows' the 'small machine' to exist. And I call BS on that, because I simply refuse to believe that he needs the income from FM in any meaningful way in order to make his solo music. He also routinely insults genuinely struggling artists all the time when he says these things about indie film-making and so on. He has been a millionaire since 1976, and a multi-millionaire since quite soon after that. He wouldn't know financial struggle if he found it in his soup. And he - and Stevie and all the rest of them who made tens of millions in the heyday of rock music - should just stop embarrassing themselves by going on about money. They are massively privileged to be in the position they're in, compared with artists starting out today, and yet LB still clings to the fantasy that it's tough for him. He releases an 'indie' record and it still gets reviewed in Rolling Stone! Come on. Stevie is every bit as bad, by the way, albeit in a different sense.

As for copying himself and his guitar skills - I think what I actually said was that, the way I see it, LB's currently in a guitar seam that's narrow but deep, and that if the listener finds that depth to be as interesting as LB does, then that's happy times all round! You are clearly someone who does find it as interesting as he does, so that's great. Not sure why you think we disagreed on that one.

I'm heartened to hear that you respect my concerns about the negative influence of LB on Stevie's artistic freedom - and yet you can't quite bring yourself to not give with one hand and take away with the other. Because you then go on to say that you think she should think herself lucky to have him - which means you think my concerns are without foundation, because you just can't conceive of LB not being an asset. And that's pretty funny for a chiffonhead - that is, for a member of a fanbase regularly accused of thinking everything Stevie does is great because she does it.

But I prefer to be optimistic: what I want, in order of preference, is more new music from Stevie and more new music from an FM that includes Lindsey and Stevie. Adding to my misgivings about them working together again is the fact that I really didn't like Soldier's Angel. However, I at least disliked it in a better way than the way in which I disliked what he did to her songs on SYW. So maybe there's hope!

I agree with you completely, by the way, that LB seems to be on an upswing. He sounds very engaged and productive.

Loz

[lbfan]

I agree with you completely, by the way, that LB seems to be on an upswing. He sounds very engaged and productive.

Loz

It is apparent to me that LB understands that his musical legacy is on the line. His demand for FM to leave him alone for three years, the plethora of new music and live recordings, the underlying theme of his lyrics, the desire to have closure with Stevie on one last BN project, to me are all evidence that he has recognized his own mortality and wants to leave an artistic legacy as a solo artist, not just an FM front man and "architect of the FM sound." He will continue to tour with FM as that is the cash cow and the key to his financial legacy for his children.

[Regina]

Well, I suppose the problem is that I'm crediting him with wanting to make sense, and he just doesn't. At length. He doesn't make sense, and he does it at length. And then he starts talking about wanting to work again with someone who just did some of the best music of her career without him. I don't understand how you can't see that there's a legit interest for a Stevie Nicks fan here. :shrug:

Well, I'm a Stevie fan, too. And I love IYD. In fact, I think I've just kicked it up to #1 on her solo stuff. I can't tell you how proud I was to see her do these songs live a couple of months ago.

But, I think there is a massive amount of reflection both of them are doing at this point in their lives. And I think they've both come to understand that they can't keep doing this I love him/her-I hate him/her deal for the rest of their lives. Time does run out. I think this is something that doesn't HAVE to happen, but should. In a way, I think they might feel that Fleetwood Mac has said all it has to say, creatively, and its main purpose is now to make baby boomers feel like they are teens for a couple of hours every couple of years (or, extremely old, depending on your point of view).

And I know that must sound kind of weird considering Stevie and Lindsey are the voices of FM-but, there is a certain sound, there are two more people who could veto things. And those two people bring in people of their own... And, as much as I hate the whole Big Machine/Small Machine thing -- I don't think any of us really have an inkling of just how BIG this stuff really is and how many people are involved (with legal teams, publicity teams, yada, yada). In a way, I think this talk of Buckingham Nicks is a really, really honest attempt, on both their parts, to strip it all down to their roots. Now, whether that is truly, truly possible is completely up to how commited they will be to that goal and just how much of ego-leaving at the door BOTH of them will be willing to do. But, I think it could work on a level that none of us can imagine. And I think it's part of their process as human beings. I don't think it will harm either of their solo careers.

So, yeah, you don't have to get or like SwS at all. But don't worry about that style of music's effect on Stevie's work. I think BuckinghamNicks (NicksBuckingham?) is a whole different machine! And, more than that, I think they have genuinely wanted to get back to the place of healing their own wounds/dealing with their conflicting confusing feelings for quite some time now...and music just may be the answer. Music that they work on TOGETHER.

[jbrownsjr]

Prepare for Lindsey's most consistant soloalbum to date. Consistant in quality, but also in sound and production. It's a winner. For me the faves are:
-the title track, ( just beautiful and tender )
-In Our Own Time , ( I think it's a masterpiece and I'm really curious what US radio does with the weird unconventional treatment of this song )
-TTWLG, (what a great great rocker, I cried from the solo till the end. Also the It Goes It Goes -screams are spinechilling),
-One Take
( he really shreds the Turner to pieces on this one, fabulous lyric, great Livesong I presume, with an extended solo- please extend it until it becomes almost ridiculous- this is the best soloriffing he did in years!)

-Rock Away Blind ( I sincerely think this one is one of his best songs, maybe even is going to win a spot above Shut Us Down in my fave-list)

- The End Of Time ( is simply a classic Mac song, I was afraid the studioversion would never reach the emotional level from the liveversion, but believe me, it does.)

It's an album with an approach, a vision. It's incredibly wellcrafted and original. And the guitarwork on this album is beyond stunning. Not only because of the skills, but also because of the feel. What an artist. There's no comparison.

And: for a lot of people a minor thing, but for me: a Milestone in Lindsey's songcraft: 11 tracks and NOT ONE fade out!!!!

I'm going to buy it based on your review. I loved GOS, hated UTS. So I hope I love this one too.

[Nico]

Adding to my misgivings about them working together again is the fact that I really didn't like Soldier's Angel. However, I at least disliked it in a better way than the way in which I disliked what he did to her songs on SYW. So maybe there's hope!


I know you wrote a lot of other stuff, but this had to be addressed: didn't Dave Stewart produce this track and Stevie write it? LB played guitar and added his vocals but if you don't like the song it shouldn't be pinned on him. I think it's an OK song myself. Nothing that engaging. But I certainly wouldn't say it's because of Lindsey. I actually don't really like Stevie's voice on it.

think that on IYD Stevie sounds the best she's sounded since the Wild Heart and I think the reason for it is that she's found someone to work with who makes her feel like what she can bring to the party is equal to what they can bring. I think that was the basis of her working relationship with Dave and it is not something she has ever experience, except fleetingly, with Lindsey. That's why I worry that she'll go back into her shell if he gets on board producing her work again.

That's a valid concern. I guess it's up to Stevie to be an adult and manifest her concerns in words to LB. I wouldn't place all the blame on LB because Stevie isn't heard on TITN or you didn't like the way he produced her songs on SYW. If they are in a band, and she has known this man the way she claims to know him, than she should have said something if SHE didn't like the way she was being presented on the latter album. That's my opinion. I personally think her songs were very average, so I personally barely listen to any of them on that album aside from maybe 3 at most. :shrug:

But perhaps an outside producer would work best then. I honestly don't care as long as Lindsey is there and I hear new Lindsey stuff. He's the source of my fandom for this band, I will not pretend otherwise. I love Stevie within the vicinity of early FM, and particularly Tusk. She's wonderful there, but I have never been fascinated by her solo stuff at all. Having her box set, I will agree the new album is certainly her best material, though she has had some gems throughout. But as mush as people complain about LB's lack of bringing anything new to the table solo-wise, how exactly has Stevie done so? Her music has that same meandering quality, mid-tempo wixed with the occasional rocker. I think perhaps in her lyrics? Maybe they have grown throughout the years, which is great.:nod:

Solo Stevie has always sold more records than solo Lindsey, but LB fans never want popular tastes to be a measure of quality (they're right, of course). So maybe that makes IYD even better!

Well, I'm not suggesting anything about "popular" am I? I was simply saying I played the album in my car on a road trip with my friends. They're NOT LB or SN or even FM fans. I had both IYD and SWS and they couldn't get into IYD at all. They couldn't stand her voice, while my friends who always mock LB thought SWS was rather impressive. I can say that, now, both of them are still claiming it's Lindsey best album.

On an aside: I do love to give examples like the above because, as you said, Stevie is and will ALWAYS BE the more popular of the two. It's just a fact. But when I see my friends being impressed by Lindsey and recognizing his incredible talents and brilliance, I have to gloat a little. He deserves it, considering all he has accomplished. Just as, for you, Steve deserves this new career resurgence. I personally don't care if LB works with FM or continues to do his solo stuff. He has continued to impress me with his albums and his live shows for years and I will happily accept whatever direction he moves in.

Also, I completely agree with YOU on the entire matter of money and LB/SN. I think it says enough with all the varied and lengthy reviews and attention LB received on his recent album- despite hardly promoting it to the extent that, say, SN promoted hers- that he isn't quite on the same level of anonymity as your average indie rocker/band. I think he loves that illusion of being an artiste with a compelling vision- and I respect that he STILL has a vision, even if it's one he's molded for himself. But the talk of money and whatnot is rater silly in the context of people releasing music who actually need the money and those who do it because they still have something to prove. I think the latter is true for LB and, sure, FM is a security blanket to allow these ventures to happen in the consistent way they have thus far. But maybe less money talk and comparisons to artists that don't have that type of security right?...I gotcha! :wavey:

[Cammie]

Regina/Nico,
Spot on girls, as are the exclusive group of our Lindsey
BucKingham Admiration Society !!!!!! We enjoy his life,
his musical genius and his endearing ways! Go Lindsey!

All music is subjective.."Taking place within us/ relating
or proceeding from an individuals emotions and mind."

Oh, I should say that is from my Collegiate dictionary!:lol:

[Nico]

Regina/Nico,
Spot on girls, as are the exclusive group of our Lindsey
BucKingham Admiration Society !!!!!! We enjoy his life,
his musical genius and his endearing ways! Go Lindsey!

All music is subjective.."Taking place within us/ relating
or proceeding from an individuals emotions and mind."

Oh, I should say that is from my Collegiate dictionary!:lol:

I just always enjoy your posts because it's like a ray of sunshine drops in every time.

[sparky]

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that because SN has singalong songs/hooks that she outshines LB? Or are you just implying that Lindsey needs to write more songs that people can all sing along to because, frankly, I don't agree with that at all.


I'm not playing the one is better than the other game. At all. The thing with hooky writing is inherent in the work hook. It grabs people. It is infectious. That doesn't always even make a song a hit, but it provides a signature line that a song either hangs on or uses as propulsion. Plenty of songwriters cannot or will not write them. Joni rarely ever did. That's fine. LB songs rarely have one anymore - not one that grabs me anyway. I wish a few of them did.

That being said, I forgot to mention that I like Illumination quite a bit.

[sparky]

I wouldn't go as far as you do - I don't, for example, think he's medicated. But I do think LB gives off massive hints that he has been 'fixed' mentally. Nothing wrong with that, though. I'm all for people getting help. And I will say that I don't think his 'go insane' schtick is/was a pose. I think he is/was someone who did battle inner demons. And his current speil about 'karma' and 'choices' is more revealing than I think he realises.

I have no idea if he is medicated. He just sounds like it sometimes. LOL.
And I say that because of the repetition. And the therapy speak. I'm only talking about the interviews and show patter. It reminds of twelve step talk and the way my own friends have flatly droned on after they got on depression meds. All the edges are taken off.

How this all plays out musically is paradoxically both interesting and not-interesting. The interesting bit is how narrow he's become. Narrow but deep. He says this himself, when he talks about centering on the guitar and what it can do or what he can do with it. So I guess the pleasure for the listener is in how far along LB's mining of that seam you feel you want to go.

Not very far. A little goes a long way.

Personally, I do find it repetitive in an eventually unpleasant way rather sooner than he does. And I hate - just cannot abide - what he does to his voice (and times ten when he does to Stevie's!). I swear, he actually wants to sound unhuman, and I don't want to be sung at by machines, so that's never gonna gel. :mad:

Yeah, the vocal manipulation was interesting the first few times. But now it distracts from the song. Evidently some people like it. Not me. For example I thought the initial version of Peacekeeper was great. By the time it got produced for SYW, I couldn't stand it. And the voice manipulation on Illume?
Cringeworthy. I suppose the more I think about it, the more I think that what I don't like is the production on his songs. Even when they are 'stripped down' they seem buried under atmosphere. I have no doubt he loves doing all that. Or he wouldn't do it. More power to him, really. It simply results in stuff I wish I could like and don't.

[elle]

I'm not playing the one is better than the other game. At all. The thing with hooky writing is inherent in the work hook. It grabs people. It is infectious. That doesn't always even make a song a hit, but it provides a signature line that a song either hangs on or uses as propulsion. Plenty of songwriters cannot or will not write them. Joni rarely ever did. That's fine. LB songs rarely have one anymore - not one that grabs me anyway. I wish a few of them did.

That being said, I forgot to mention that I like Illumination quite a bit.

agree that it's pretty clear what is or is not a good hook, or hook at all. so i'm surprised to see that you are saying LB's most recent work doesn't have hooks (i assume you did listen to SWS). as you are saying - whether or not there's a hook is not really subjective. after UTS and less GOS (although i didn't think his newer songs on GOS had great hooks either - LRD hook sounds pretty pedestrian to me) i was saying what you are saying NOW, and i thought he either didn't want to or couldn't write good hooks anymore... but SWS - what are you listening to?!?!?! TTWLG, IOOT, Illumination, EOT, etc etc - all have at least one if not several hooks going at once (IOOT) and they are completely captivating not just to me but to most people i know who don't know or care much about LB.

on the other hand, somebody in this thread said that IYD CD is full of hooks - i'm surprised about that statement too - IYD has many long meandering songs that musically don't seem to go very far, imo, and become boring b/c they never end. when there are hooks, like in that new orleans song, they sound like something a child would write (again, just my opinion). i was thinking of grabbing Dave Stewart's CD b/c although there seems to be some similarities to IYD music there i kinda liked some of the songs better than IYD ones, and i like that "magic in the blues" song, but then i heard another one and another one, and they all just blend into one to me... gotta listen to DS BBD again more carefully, but:distress:.

[michelej1]

TTWLG, IOOT, Illumination, EOT, etc etc - all have at least one if not several hooks going at once (IOOT) and they are completely captivating not just to me but to most people i know who don't know or care much about LB.


That's certainly true, after we got the Saban audio it was impossible to stop singing those songs. They hooked in an almost unbidden way. I was humming, "it wouldn't make any difference, we crossed the line," non-stop, practically against my will and a solid 6 songs on the album are like that.

I know what you mean about some hooks being childish. That's how I feel about Annabel Lee and it was also my problem with some of the UTS songs. For instance, I couldn't deny that CAD was catchy, but it was in a lighter way than I actually wanted to be caught.

Michele

[Fiver]

This isn't really a first impression, and I don't have anything to add here that hasn't been said but here's my take on SWS anyways;

It's a really consistent record. Like some others have said, a bit of an amalgamation of UtS & GoS with touches (and some borrowed sounds) of OotC. Not especially exciting or groundbreaking, but it's got some definite highs (for me RAB, IOOT, GTF) and no discernible lows. And I love She Smiled Sweetly. Never cared for the bootleg GoS version.


Kind of a sidenote here, but a funny thing happened because of this album. Gone Too Far really struck me for some reason, which led to loads of SWS and OotC listening last month. Cradle's still not my favorite, but I've got an unexpected new found appreciation for it. Weird.

[Fiver]

I know what you mean about some hooks being childish. That's how I feel about Annabel Lee and it was also my problem with some of the UTS songs. For instance, I couldn't deny that CAD was catchy, but it was in a lighter way than I actually wanted to be caught.

Michele

The melodies of these two songs (as well as End of Time and When She Comes Down) are a bit .. I wanna say.. 'hymn-like'? :shrug: But that might not be the right word.

They remind me of songs I grew up singing in church. So I wouldn't say they had hooks, in the typical modern sense. But I like that at times.

[sparky]

whether or not there's a hook is not really subjective.

It may or may not be. One person's hook can be another person's annoying repeated musical phrase.


but SWS - what are you listening to?!?!?! TTWLG, IOOT, Illumination, EOT, etc etc - all have at least one if not several hooks going at once (IOOT) and they are completely captivating not just to me but to most people i know who don't know or care much about LB.

I will give it another listen. There are a few songs I have a very difficult time getting through. They are just sonically so dense and messy. I do think IOOT has some catchy hooks in it. But like many of his songs, the hook is surrounded by a big sonic mess that gets in my way. Like I am tripping over furniture in an otherwise comfortable room.

on the other hand, somebody in this thread said that IYD CD is full of hooks - i'm surprised about that statement too

IDK if I agree with that statement completely either. It has some nice ones. AL, IYD, YMBTO and to a lesser degree FWIW. But there is meandering. And I feel about GAG like I do about some LB songs - the tone of that guitar is so abrasive and annoying that sometimes I just can't listen to it. In that instance I like her attitude and parts of the melody enough to go with it. Other times it simply hurts my ears.

[michelej1]

The melodies of these two songs (as well as End of Time and When She Comes Down) are a bit .. I wanna say.. 'hymn-like'? :shrug: But that might not be the right word.

They remind me of songs I grew up singing in church. So I wouldn't say they had hooks, in the typical modern sense. But I like that at times.

I know what you mean about two of those: Annabel Lee and When She Comes Down. One of my CD players or receivers had effects, where it would automatically change the music settings to mimic a certain sound and one of the choices was "choir." When She Comes Down has that choir element.

Annabel Lee is ritualistic to me. It's like a musical exercise, a chant. In that sense, it's religious to me as well, like a monk's recitation. That in itself has a rather hypnotic appeal, but I think of it as possessing more thought than beat.

I am very taken by Gone Too Far too. Just the tone of his voice when he says "me" after holding the word "saaaaave". It has a bleating quality that enhances the plea in the lyrics. And the beat kind of sways, it's like Hawaii, palms and water moving rhythmically. Very simple -- or simple sounding.

Michele

Michele

[jellyman10]

I guess it's up to Stevie to be an adult and manifest her concerns in words to LB. I wouldn't place all the blame on LB because Stevie isn't heard on TITN or you didn't like the way he produced her songs on SYW. If they are in a band, and she has known this man the way she claims to know him, than she should have said something if SHE didn't like the way she was being presented on the latter album. That's my opinion.

[...]

Also, I completely agree with YOU on the entire matter of money and LB/SN. I think it says enough with all the varied and lengthy reviews and attention LB received on his recent album- despite hardly promoting it to the extent that, say, SN promoted hers- that he isn't quite on the same level of anonymity as your average indie rocker/band. I think he loves that illusion of being an artiste with a compelling vision- and I respect that he STILL has a vision, even if it's one he's molded for himself. But the talk of money and whatnot is rater silly in the context of people releasing music who actually need the money and those who do it because they still have something to prove. I think the latter is true for LB and, sure, FM is a security blanket to allow these ventures to happen in the consistent way they have thus far. But maybe less money talk and comparisons to artists that don't have that type of security right?...I gotcha! :wavey:

Thanks for your reply, Nico. Good point about DS producing Soldier's Angel. You're right, of course, and maybe what I was getting at was one of the three tracks I really don't enjoy on IYD is the one where 'they had to get LB in to know what to do with it', and it ended up all 'raw' and 'stripped down', which are some of the components of LB's aesthetic that I feel uncertain about. I won't put it any more strongly than that, though. I'm just uncertain. I think LB and SN can sound transcendentally beautiful together, but mainly when they aim for beauty, rather than rawness. That quality you don't like in Stevie's voice on Soldier's Angel? I can't stand it either. She doesn't sound good like that, and it worries me that people in the studio thought she did.

Two other things, quickly: you're bang on about SN not communicating properly with LB during SYW. We saw it in Destiny Rules. They were both so passive-aggressive and it can only be hoped that they're over that now. Stevie is a people-pleaser BIG TIME, and that can get you through in the short term, but it leads to recriminations eventually. So I agree with you on the need for maturity.

Finally, yes, we agree on the money thing. :)

Loz

[jellyman10]

Well, I'm a Stevie fan, too. And I love IYD. In fact, I think I've just kicked it up to #1 on her solo stuff. I can't tell you how proud I was to see her do these songs live a couple of months ago.

But, I think there is a massive amount of reflection both of them are doing at this point in their lives. And I think they've both come to understand that they can't keep doing this I love him/her-I hate him/her deal for the rest of their lives. Time does run out. I think this is something that doesn't HAVE to happen, but should. In a way, I think they might feel that Fleetwood Mac has said all it has to say, creatively, and its main purpose is now to make baby boomers feel like they are teens for a couple of hours every couple of years (or, extremely old, depending on your point of view).

And I know that must sound kind of weird considering Stevie and Lindsey are the voices of FM-but, there is a certain sound, there are two more people who could veto things. And those two people bring in people of their own... And, as much as I hate the whole Big Machine/Small Machine thing -- I don't think any of us really have an inkling of just how BIG this stuff really is and how many people are involved (with legal teams, publicity teams, yada, yada). In a way, I think this talk of Buckingham Nicks is a really, really honest attempt, on both their parts, to strip it all down to their roots. Now, whether that is truly, truly possible is completely up to how commited they will be to that goal and just how much of ego-leaving at the door BOTH of them will be willing to do. But, I think it could work on a level that none of us can imagine. And I think it's part of their process as human beings. I don't think it will harm either of their solo careers.

So, yeah, you don't have to get or like SwS at all. But don't worry about that style of music's effect on Stevie's work. I think BuckinghamNicks (NicksBuckingham?) is a whole different machine! And, more than that, I think they have genuinely wanted to get back to the place of healing their own wounds/dealing with their conflicting confusing feelings for quite some time now...and music just may be the answer. Music that they work on TOGETHER.

I really loved reading this post, Regina. Thank you. I think (and hope) you're right. :nod:

[CADreaming]

I know you wrote a lot of other stuff, but this had to be addressed: didn't Dave Stewart produce this track and Stevie write it? LB played guitar and added his vocals but if you don't like the song it shouldn't be pinned on him. I think it's an OK song myself. Nothing that engaging. But I certainly wouldn't say it's because of Lindsey. I actually don't really like Stevie's voice on it.


Stevie has said Lindsey produced SA. Take that for what it's worth. He wasn't credited, but he did what a producer does best. I love the song and think it sounds harsh because it's meant to sound that way. It's supposed to be jarring -- and I think that was what Lindsey intended and what Stevie wanted to bring across that she couldn't get anyone else to understand.

[shackin'up]

I also think it is a great post, Regina. I just have one big worry: the effect of Stevie's choices in music and sound on future B/N or Mac-projects. I love alot of songmaterial on IYD, but I totally dislike the production of it. I have a feeling that Lindsey will (try to) step back some more, but I'm not sure if I will like what would come instead...

[jellyman10]

Stevie has said Lindsey produced SA. Take that for what it's worth. He wasn't credited, but he did what a producer does best. I love the song and think it sounds harsh because it's meant to sound that way. It's supposed to be jarring -- and I think that was what Lindsey intended and what Stevie wanted to bring across that she couldn't get anyone else to understand.

Ah, OK. A deliberately jarring aesthetic that risks creating something sonically unpleasant. I get it. Feel bad for skipping it all the time now. :o

[CADreaming]

Ah, OK. A deliberately jarring aesthetic that risks creating something sonically unpleasant. I get it. Feel bad for skipping it all the time now. :o

You like what you like.... I think it sounds awesome. To each his own. :wavey:

[jellyman10]

You like what you like.... I think it sounds awesome. To each his own. :wavey:

Yeah, but I'm a bit taken aback my own conservatism. I just acted in a play with some disturbing themes and have banged on at length to people about why they shouldn't expect to only ever feel comfortable in a theatre seat.

I'm going to stop skipping Solder's Angel and see if it grows on me.

[Fiver]

I am very taken by Gone Too Far too. Just the tone of his voice when he says "me" after holding the word "saaaaave". It has a bleating quality that enhances the plea in the lyrics. And the beat kind of sways, it's like Hawaii, palms and water moving rhythmically. Very simple -- or simple sounding.

Michele



Hey, this is a great description. I'll just add, I'm not much of a musician, but this one really calls part of IKINW to my mind (obviously a bit of You Do or You Don't too). Something about the background ahhs that hang around the "save me". And then the guitar fill at around 2:07 sounds Mirage-y, and I love Mirage to death (specifically, it sounds like a little part in WYWH near the end). If I'd have just heard a clip of GTF, I'd never have thought it'd end up being one of my favorites here. All these elements together really do it for me.

[michelej1]

It's supposed to be jarring -- and I think that was what Lindsey intended and what Stevie wanted to bring across that she couldn't get anyone else to understand.

Yes, I agree that it's intended to jar. When Stevie said ominous (or ominousity), after I heard the song I knew exactly what she meant. You're supposed to feel disquieted. I am so proud of the condemnation. The righteous condemnation.

The way they just say mmmmmm, in lieu of criticism, in lieu of words, is as eerie as it is effective.

Michele

[lbfan]

I am very taken by Gone Too Far too. Just the tone of his voice when he says "me" after holding the word "saaaaave". It has a bleating quality that enhances the plea in the lyrics. And the beat kind of sways, it's like Hawaii, palms and water moving rhythmically. Very simple -- or simple sounding.

Michele
GTF has emerged as a favorite of mine as well. Similarly, You Do or You Don't became a favorite after several months of listening to OOTC. I am not a musician, I just know that these songs make me feel good when I am listening to them.

[CADreaming]

Yeah, but I'm a bit taken aback my own conservatism. I just acted in a play with some disturbing themes and have banged on at length to people about why they shouldn't expect to only ever feel comfortable in a theatre seat.

I'm going to stop skipping Solder's Angel and see if it grows on me.

I hope it does!

Yes, I agree that it's intended to jar. When Stevie said ominous (or ominousity), after I heard the song I knew exactly what she meant. You're supposed to feel disquieted. I am so proud of the condemnation. The righteous condemnation.

The way they just say mmmmmm, in lieu of criticism, in lieu of words, is as eerie as it is effective.

Michele

I like the mmmmm part too Michele! Much more effective (with their voices) than when she does it live with the girls and changes it to "yeah".

[elle]

bump.

this was the official US date for LB's last studio album so far. 4 years ago. time for a new one!!

yes he released several live albums since, but we know he has so many overflow songs from FM album he and the guys, and then he and Christine have been working on, and then he told someone he was working on some additional new songs while on the road with the Mac... so he can probably easily release another solo studio album.