SYW, best album of all time?

[caroline79]

I think Say You Will might be my favorite Fleetwood Mac CD. It's weird because I wouldn't have thought it would be, I actually dreaded even listening to it thinking I would hate it so much.

I have been listening to it non-stop lately. Even with Christine gone I think it works. Songs I didn't like at first I have grown to absolutely love. I think it's completely crazy that I think this though!

There's no real Christine.

There's not as many harmonies, just echoing each other (as someone mentioned before).

I don't like the last 2 songs.

It took me a long time to like a lot of the songs.

Yet I love this CD. I love their matured voices. I love the order of the songs. I love that it is so different then anything they have done before, IMO.

Anyone else feel this way, or am I the only one? :laugh:

[mylittledemon]

best album of all time? Certainly not. ;)

I do applaud the band for getting back together. At that time I was elated they were making another studio record. When I heard Christine was out... I was skeptical. I still like Say You Will, but it's so convoluted and... messy. I almost wish they had just released it as the 2-CD album it was originally envisioned. It's a hot mess, and I think they were attempting to do a Tusk Redux in some ways...but comes nowhere near the brilliance of Tusk.

I think Tango in the Night, Rumours, Tusk, The Dance, the White album, and possibly Mirage are all superior to Say You Will.

[bluefox4000]

Sh*t no. I hate the thing. Such a lazy effort:sorry:

Mick

[caroline79]

best album of all time? Certainly not. ;)

I think Tango in the Night, Rumours, Tusk, The Dance, the White album, and possibly Mirage are all superior to Say You Will.

Haha yes. Thought that title would grab people's attention :lol:
I would definitely agree that The Dance is superior, but Mirage? :eek:

Sh*t no. I hate the thing. Such a lazy effort:sorry:

Mick

I'm sure there are many who feel the same way. Not sure why I love it so much, maybe it's just a phase :laugh:

[elle]

love SYW, although i'd drop almost all stevie's songs and say goodbye, and WTWCT... no wonder almost none of the stevie fans like it!:laugh:

i'd rate SYW together with Tusk, and way ahead of Mirage and Tango.

but i'd still like better original GOS...

EDIT: The Dance doesn't count - it's the live album, like LiB

[MacShadowsBall]

To be honest, I tend to forget that this album exists! :lol:

Without Christine, it just doesn't quite intrigue me. I don't really care for Stevie's "new" voice that seemed to emerge after the Dance. In general, Lindsey's songs are never my favorite.

I feel it was important that the album was made, i.e. that FM went on despite Christine's absence. Does that make sense? :shrug:

I'll check the songs more closely on Youtube, though.

[bluefox4000]

]but i'd still like better original GOS...



This is right on:thumbsup:

Mick

[mylittledemon]

I would definitely agree that The Dance is superior, but Mirage? :eek:


Gypsy and Hold Me are better than anything we got off Say You Will.

Thrown Down I think is the true gem of Say You Will... the rest I'm in a love/hate relationship with.


EDIT: The Dance doesn't count - it's the live album, like LiB

BullSh*t! It had new songs on it. ;)

[caroline79]

love SYW, although i'd drop almost all stevie's songs and say goodbye, and WTWCT... no wonder almost none of the stevie fans like it!:laugh:

i'd rate SYW together with Tusk, and way ahead of Mirage and Tango.

but i'd still like better original GOS...

EDIT: The Dance doesn't count - it's the live album, like LiB

Yeah I still dislike Say Goodbye and Goodbye Baby but I love WTWCT!
The only reason I might count The Dance is because of Temporary One and Sweet Girl and I love those songs!

To be honest, I tend to forget that this album exists! :lol:

Without Christine, it just doesn't quite intrigue me. I don't really care for Stevie's "new" voice that seemed to emerge after the Dance. In general, Lindsey's songs are never my favorite.

I feel it was important that the album was made, i.e. that FM went on despite Christine's absence. Does that make sense? :shrug:

I'll check the songs more closely on Youtube, though.

That makes perfect sense. It takes me a while to get into Lindsey's songs but then I end up loving them. Only one I don't like on SYW is Say Goodbye.

[louielouie2000]

I really do love some of the songs on SYW... but I just don't think it's a great album. The absolute polarity of Lindsey & Stevie on Tusk was balanced out by the bridge that was Christine. SYW is like Tusk, only minus the bridge. So it comes across as combative & schizophrenic. Stevie definitely brought her best material to the table since Mirage (yes, I'm counting Behind The Mask). But it just had no relation or commonality to Lindsey's material. I think this stepping stone was one that was necessary to happen, though. I think Stevie & Lindsey needed to trip, fall, and bloody themselves up. And hopefully they'll be better for it on the next album. And I truly do think there will be one more 'next album.' :)

[caroline79]

Gypsy and Hold Me are better than anything we got off Say You Will.

Thrown Down I think is the true gem of Say You Will... the rest I'm in a love/hate relationship with.



BullSh*t! It had new songs on it. ;)

:thumbsup:

Thrown Down, along with Illume, Say You Will and Destiny Rules were my favorite off the CD when I first heard it. Gypsy is an amazing song but they only one I really love off Mirage, which is why I would rank SYW above it.

[Fiver]

I love most of SYW. The only tracks I skip are Silver Girl, Say Goodbye & Goodbye Baby. But the two bonus tracks make up for those in my eyes.

[elle]

BullSh*t! It had new songs on it. ;)

:lol: man, are you combative. ;)

[elle]

I love most of SYW. The only tracks I skip are Silver Girl, Say Goodbye & Goodbye Baby. But the two bonus tracks make up for those in my eyes.

oh yeah, love minus zero! :nod::nod:

[mylittledemon]

:lol: man, are you combative. ;)

LOL how dare you! ;)

[Fiver]

oh yeah, love minus zero! :nod::nod:
:thumbsup: It's such a great version. And barring a few awkward lyrics, I really like Not Make Believe, too.

[henryscutter]

1. What's The World Coming To - One of Lindsey's poor me whiny songs
2. Murrow Turning Over In His Grave - should have been on a solo album
3. Illume (9/11) - never connected with it, hate the helium voice snake thing
4. Thrown Down - Love it
5. Miranda - Love it
6. Red Rover - Love it although it sounds like LB solo
7. Say You Will - Love it
8. Peacekeeper - meh it is ok dont like all the extra noises and woo oos
9. Come - Love it :wavey: Stevie should have joined in
10. Smile At You - Love the demo - like the album version
11. Running Through The Garden - same as above
12. Silver Girl - like it
13. Steal Your Heart Away - Love it - wish Stevie was louder in the mix
14. Bleed To Love Her - Dance version was enough for me
15. Everybody Finds Out - Love it
16. Destiny Rules - like it
17. Say Goodbye - Dont like album version- better live on Soundstage
18. Goodbye Baby - Demo was superior

SYW had its moments, but could have been so much more with different song choices ( Lindsey - Down on Rodeo, Right Place to Fade, Deep Dense instead of Murrow, WTWCT,SG, BTLH) and staying true to the demos( Stevie - RTTG, SAY, GB)

[McTrouble]

I think Say You Will might be my favorite Fleetwood Mac CD. It's weird because I wouldn't have thought it would be, I actually dreaded even listening to it thinking I would hate it so much.

I have been listening to it non-stop lately. Even with Christine gone I think it works. Songs I didn't like at first I have grown to absolutely love. I think it's completely crazy that I think this though!

There's no real Christine.

There's not as many harmonies, just echoing each other (as someone mentioned before).

I don't like the last 2 songs.

It took me a long time to like a lot of the songs.

Yet I love this CD. I love their matured voices. I love the order of the songs. I love that it is so different then anything they have done before, IMO.

Anyone else feel this way, or am I the only one? :laugh:

It's my favourite FM album too!

I think it is sublime - with the exception of just a couple of Stevie's songs.

I adore all Lindsey's songs on here, and unlike a lot of people I really really love Say Goodbye!

[McTrouble]

I love most of SYW. The only tracks I skip are Silver Girl, Say Goodbye & Goodbye Baby. But the two bonus tracks make up for those in my eyes.


What, what, what? I don't have bonus tracks on my CD!!!!! I am distressed that I am missing some FM tracks from my collection :shocked:

[Silver Springs]

What, what, what? I don't have bonus tracks on my CD!!!!! I am distressed that I am missing some FM tracks from my collection :shocked:

Last time I felt the urge to buy Say You Will's Deluxe Edition I was put off by the fact that it was ridiculously over priced at the time. Maybe it might have gone down by now. I don't know. Maybe I'll get it one day when I'm not banned from spending more money lol. I do adore Say You Will, though. It was my "Gateway Album". I remember getting off of the bus one sunny day after school, climbing a grass bank by the side of the road and just laying down on it, completely euphoric in listening to the album under the sun. Bliss. It's definitely a sunshine album to me, where as Tango In The Night is at its best when walking alone in the dark streets of a night.

[mylittledemon]

What, what, what? I don't have bonus tracks on my CD!!!!! I am distressed that I am missing some FM tracks from my collection :shocked:


yeah it looked like this:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_BelOZxxIMHg/S_jbL9C4UrI/AAAAAAAAlvQ/joIeAj4WlAs/tn_Fleetwood%20Mac%20-%20Say%20You%20Will%20Front.jpg

It was a 2 CD set... the 2nd disc had "Not Make Believe" and "Love Minus Zero" on it... as well as Peacekeeper and Say You Will live from the AOL Sessions.

[TrueFaith77]

It is my contention that Say You Will is the best American album of the 00s.

[chriskisn]

Can I point you all in the direction of the pre-Rumours period. That is where the best albums by Fleetwood Mac are to be found. ;)

[Dodfather]

Say You Will is pretty great in parts. As others have said, Thrown Down is, for me, the standout track and a real gem! It's the best Mac song Stevie had done since Gypsy - just superb. Yes, the album is patchy but I think if you removed 4-5 tracks it could have been pretty stellar.

Now, just what would those 4-5 tracks be?? Let battle commence! I think/hope we can all agree on Silver Girl though... No, Stevie, No!!

[TrueFaith77]

yeah it looked like this:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_BelOZxxIMHg/S_jbL9C4UrI/AAAAAAAAlvQ/joIeAj4WlAs/tn_Fleetwood%20Mac%20-%20Say%20You%20Will%20Front.jpg

It was a 2 CD set... the 2nd disc had "Not Make Believe" and "Love Minus Zero" on it... as well as Peacekeeper and Say You Will live from the AOL Sessions.

Love Minus Zero is the most beautiful Lindsey-produced track since Tusk.

Not Make Believe is the older sibling of "Everybody Loves You" (they share lyrics as well as blood).

[McTrouble]

yeah it looked like this:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_BelOZxxIMHg/S_jbL9C4UrI/AAAAAAAAlvQ/joIeAj4WlAs/tn_Fleetwood%20Mac%20-%20Say%20You%20Will%20Front.jpg

It was a 2 CD set... the 2nd disc had "Not Make Believe" and "Love Minus Zero" on it... as well as Peacekeeper and Say You Will live from the AOL Sessions.

Thank you :thumbsup:

I'll add it to my collection soon!

[McTrouble]

Last time I felt the urge to buy Say You Will's Deluxe Edition I was put off by the fact that it was ridiculously over priced at the time. Maybe it might have gone down by now. I don't know. Maybe I'll get it one day when I'm not banned from spending more money lol. I do adore Say You Will, though. It was my "Gateway Album". I remember getting off of the bus one sunny day after school, climbing a grass bank by the side of the road and just laying down on it, completely euphoric in listening to the album under the sun. Bliss. It's definitely a sunshine album to me, where as Tango In The Night is at its best when walking alone in the dark streets of a night.

That's a great description/comparison of the two albums :nod:

[TrueFaith77]

This would not be considered definitive (though I'd hold it up against the list of any "expert"):

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/johndemetry/25_favourite_albums_of_all_time_

My 25 Favourite Albums of All Time
(one album per artist / listed preferentially)

1. Tusk (1979), Fleetwood Mac
2. Siren (1975), Roxy Music
3. Rubber Soul (1965), The Beatles
4. Bad Girls (1979), Donna Summer
5. Remain In Light (1980), Talking Heads
6. Very (1993), Pet Shop Boys
7. Fear of a Black Planet (1990), Public Enemy
8. Cupid & Psyche 85 (1985), Scritti Politti
9. You Are The Quarry (2004), Morrissey
10. Sticky Fingers (1971), The Rolling Stones
11. Bazerk Bazerk Bazerk (1991), Son of Bazerk
12. Never Mind the Bollocks Here's the Sex Pistols (1977), Sex Pistols
13. Strangeways, Here We Come (1987), The Smiths
14. Perhaps (1985), The Associates
15. Hounds of Love (1985), Kate Bush
16. Armed Forces (1979), Elvis Costello
17. Raise the Pressure (1996), Electronic
18. O(+> (1992), Prince
19. Blood on the Dance Floor (1997), Michael Jackson
20. You're All I Need (1968), Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell
21. Darkness on the Edge of Town (1978), Bruce Springsteen
22. Playing With a Different Sex (1981), Au Pairs
23. Brotherhood (1986), New Order
24. Take It Off (1981), Chic
25. Dr. Buzzard's Original Savannah Band (1976), Dr. Buzzard's Original Savannah Band

[Kena]

I really like SYW. I can't say it's my favorite because I can't pick a favorites...

A few thoughts on a few songs....

Thrown Down - brings out the shipper in me. Blame it on the documentary.

Red Rover - Love this song...mostly the beginning - the super fast guitar pickin part and Lindseys voice as it builds up. I just imagine Lindsey's fingers in fast forward motion moving all around and hitting all the right spots...errr, I mean chords.

Say You Will - those sweet little girl voices at the end are just precious.

Peacekeeper - Stevie and Linds sound good together on this one...but yeah, the woo woos hoos are stupid. What is that? Is it a human made noise?

Silver Girl - ummm, not so much. Didn't she say this one was about Sheryl Crow? "She had the Midas touch" Oh really? Does Sheryl do car repairs/maintenance now? Ohhhh, maybe she means Midas from greek mythology...but ya know, I haven't seen or heard commercials for that guy.

Bleed To Love Her - I LOVE this song...fell in love with it during The Dance era. I like the SYW version but the live version is my favorite.

Everybody finds out - I really like this song...it's pretty rocking and the lyrics are angry and bitter, and like "nanny nanny boo boo you can't have him! He's mine!" stuff you'd yell at someone you caught hitting on your man

Say Goodbye - slooowww down Lindsey. Don't like this fast forward version.

That's all for me...

[David]

It's a hot messThat appears to be the Phrase of the Day on the Ledge, but I still don't know whether it's a compliment or an insult. I should check the Urban Dictionary.

and I think they were attempting to do a Tusk Redux in some ways...but comes nowhere near the brilliance of Tusk.The various styles of engineering used on Say You Will bug me; the sound of the album isn't attractive to my ears. Maybe ProTools output is designed for high-end playback systems, I don't know. But I hear screechy & tinny, mostly, plus gain that's driven up to the point where speakers start to buzz.

I have another problem with Say You Will: it just sounds so studied & humorless. I guess you could call Come kind of witty, but then why is it so long? There's bad judgment all over Say You Will. Rumours & Tusk also have that very charming devil-may-care quality -- they give the impression of being spontaneous & casual. But Say You Will is portentous & kind of plodding. I don't think Fleetwood Mac is very good with such serious pop art -- they should be breezy & casual & witty. That's Stevie's & Lindsey's failing, too, as solo album writers & singers. Lindsey's first album was so dang cute because it was so goofy, but what happened to that Lindsey? I think he just got pissed off.

As for Stevie Nicks, I can't think of a more humorless songwriter. I call her Miss Dour. (Maybe old Depeche Mode is even more humorless.)

[caroline79]

.


I have another problem with Say You Will: it just sounds so studied & humorless. I guess you could call Come kind of witty, but then why is it so long? There's bad judgment all over Say You Will. Rumours & Tusk also have that very charming devil-may-care quality -- they give the impression of being spontaneous & casual. But Say You Will is portentous & kind of plodding. I don't think Fleetwood Mac is very good with such serious pop art -- they should be breezy & casual & witty. That's Stevie's & Lindsey's failing, too, as solo album writers & singers. Lindsey's first album was so dang cute because it was so goofy, but what happened to that Lindsey? I think he just got pissed off.


I think FM is great at making breezy and casual songs that can also be very meaningful to people. Like Louie said, they lost their "bridge" (Christine) which makes SYW sound very different from their albums. Sure they don't have as many casual pop songs but I also think that has to do with them growing older and having a different outlook on the world.
I find Lindsey's first album so goofy that it's hard for me to listen to it. For example, Johnny Stew? I get that it's just a fun, goofy song but hearing him growl and scream during the middle of it is just strange and not what I want to here.

[michelej1]

I find Lindsey's first album so goofy that it's hard for me to listen to it. For example, Johnny Stew? I get that it's just a fun, goofy song but hearing him growl and scream during the middle of it is just strange and not what I want to here.

I agree that the monster voice intoning "Stewww, Stewww," is not exactly the type of thing you want to sing along to. Yet, somehow I never took it as a goofy song. I guess because of the production. That was the real tribute to John Stewart and I think it was extraordinary. But definitely, I don't think it is a particularly user friendly song.

Michele

[markolas]

I loved SYW when it first came out, but now I think it doesn't hold together as an album too well, and it has several songs I don't like (mostly Stevie's).

Out of LB's songs, I really like Miranda, Say Goodbye, & Bleed to Love Her. WTWCT, Peacekeeper, & SYHA are okay; sometimes I really like Rover & Murrow, other times they annoy the hell out of me. Come is a totally overblown piece of crap, IMO.

Most of SN's songs on this album make me want to wretch. I would probably really like Illume if not for Lindsey's Zelda Rubinstein routine at the end; I keep expecting him to tell the children to go into the light.

RTTG and Destiny Rules are really the only songs of hers from this album that I regularly listen to anymore. Smile at You isn't terrible, but it annoys me after a while; I never thought it was one of her better songs to begin with. Thrown Down bores the hell out of me; I love the TISL version, tho. The rest of her songs on here are kinda "meh" for me.

[HomerMcvie]

That appears to be the Phrase of the Day on the Ledge, but I still don't know whether it's a compliment or an insult. I should check the Urban Dictionary.


Oh David, I have a friend that uses that phrase constantly. I want to strangle him every time he utters it!:mad:

PLEASE STOP SAYING HOT MESS. It's STUPID, and TIRED. It's soooo 2009!

[jbrownsjr]

I honestly think this album is/was a huge flop, let alone best of all time. It doesn't sound like a band album. The opening song is embarassing. The hits are weak. The tracks don't go together well. The running order is a disaster. The length of the album is tiring. The vocals are absolute rubbish. It sounds very very forced and a bit dated even when it was released. The production of Stevie's voice at times leads me to think someone should have been fired.

I loved the bonus track and put that disk in more than the main disk.

I've tried to love this album, but I'll take GOS any day over this forced tired set of songs.

[caroline79]

It's my favourite FM album too!

I think it is sublime - with the exception of just a couple of Stevie's songs.

I adore all Lindsey's songs on here, and unlike a lot of people I really really love Say Goodbye!

Finally, someone who understands! :laugh: What makes it your favorite? I'm curious!

Say You Will is pretty great in parts. As others have said, Thrown Down is, for me, the standout track and a real gem! It's the best Mac song Stevie had done since Gypsy - just superb. Yes, the album is patchy but I think if you removed 4-5 tracks it could have been pretty stellar.

Now, just what would those 4-5 tracks be?? Let battle commence! I think/hope we can all agree on Silver Girl though... No, Stevie, No!!

Definitely agree! Hmmm...I would get rid of Murrow (I absolutely love it but feels somewhat misplaced on the album), Silver Girl (Don't hate it as much as everyone else!), Goodbye Baby and Say Goodbye.

I agree that the monster voice intoning "Stewww, Stewww," is not exactly the type of thing you want to sing along to. Yet, somehow I never took it as a goofy song. I guess because of the production. That was the real tribute to John Stewart and I think it was extraordinary. But definitely, I don't think it is a particularly user friendly song.

Michele

Maybe goofy is the wrong word..."user friendly" works much better. I can't really appreciate the song because I barely know who John Stewart is...and even if I did, I still don't think I would like it :laugh:

I honestly think this album is/was a huge flop, let alone best of all time. It doesn't sound like a band album. The opening song is embarassing. The hits are weak. The tracks don't go together well. The running order is a disaster. The length of the album is tiring. The vocals are absolute rubbish. It sounds very very forced and a bit dated even when it was released. The production of Stevie's voice at times leads me to think someone should have been fired.

I loved the bonus track and put that disk in more than the main disk.

I've tried to love this album, but I'll take GOS any day over this forced tired set of songs.

I don't think the album sounds forced, I actually think they sound more like a band on it then they had during Tusk, Mirage and Tango. I still love those albums but they sound very disconnected from each other.

Sure there are songs on this album that sound like they would work better on solo CD's but on Illume, Thrown Down, Miranda, Say You Will, Peacekeeper and EFO they sound very united. Even to a lesser degree WWTCT, RTHG and Destiny Rules both presences are still felt.

I have yet to hear the two bonus songs, will have to check them out!

[jbrownsjr]

^^^ yeah check out the bonus disc.. I think you'll dig it.. I guess we disagree on the band/forced issues.. but tis very subjective.. :)

[McTrouble]

[QUOTE=caroline79;989337]Finally, someone who understands! :laugh: What makes it your favorite? I'm curious!



I think it's because I saw the Live In Boston show before I bought the SYW CD. I immediately adored all the SYW songs done live so it was a foregone conclusion that I was gonna love the CD!

[Bandon]

I think Say You Will might be my favorite Fleetwood Mac CD. It's weird because I wouldn't have thought it would be, I actually dreaded even listening to it thinking I would hate it so much.

I have been listening to it non-stop lately. Even with Christine gone I think it works. Songs I didn't like at first I have grown to absolutely love. I think it's completely crazy that I think this though!

There's no real Christine.

There's not as many harmonies, just echoing each other (as someone mentioned before).

I don't like the last 2 songs.

It took me a long time to like a lot of the songs.
Yet I love this CD. I love their matured voices. I love the order of the songs. I love that it is so different then anything they have done before, IMO.

Anyone else feel this way, or am I the only one? :laugh:


It should not take a long time to like a lot of songs on any album. I think it's always interesting when fans say this about an album. I guess if you listen to anything over and over, it can grow on you whether its subpair or not. This CD was a frankenstein effort with Lindsey attempting to make another double CD with some good tracks, but mostly odd-ball, bland, non-accessible stuff. Much of Stevies tunes weren't much better. The best example was the distruction of Smile at You. Where were Christine and Richard Dashut when you needed them? :mad:

[caroline79]

It should not take a long time to like a lot of songs on any album. I think it's always interesting when fans say this about an album. I guess if you listen to anything over and over, it can grow on you whether its subpair or not. This CD was a frankenstein effort with Lindsey attempting to make another double CD with some good tracks, but mostly odd-ball, bland, non-accessible stuff. Much of Stevies tunes weren't much better. The best example was the distruction of Smile at You. Where were Christine and Richard Dashut when you needed them? :mad:

I think their is a difference. Yes I am a fan and yes there were songs that I loved at first, but some I did not. Songs like Murrow and Come I listened to the beginning, wasn't big on it, and skipped it. It wasn't until I really listened and began to understand what the song meant until I loved it. And yes, I loved it. When I first heard the CD I was very much into young FM and already went in with the mindset that I wasn't going to like these songs, but I was wrong.
I use Lindsey's first solo album as an example of how something can grow on you, but you may not love it. I can listen to it but I will never love a lot of those songs. They are just too strange, hold little meaning to me personally and I don't like how they sound.

Sure the Smile At You demo may have been better, but wasn't that Stevie's decision to tone it down and not make it sound so angry?

Fleetwood Mac has such a large collection of music and some songs don't even song like they are from the same band! And the only song I really dislike is Empire State :laugh:

[chiliD]

The beauty of albums like SYW (I'll even throw Tusk & the Beatles' White Album into that pile) is that there is so much material that each person can pretty much make the album be what they want it to be. As is, the album's tracking order just bites the big one; but thanks to technology, we can give the album's tunes a more personal (or "better", or "pleasing") tracking order.

Considering the wealth of material that Lindsey had from the original GOS sessions, I could swap out songs with some of those...so MY Say You Will has this as its tracking order:

Say You Will
Bleed To Love Her
Thrown Down (the wall of sound version)
To Try For The Sun (sometimes I'll swap it out for "Red Rover" here)
Destiny Rules
What's The World Coming To
Illume
Murrow Turning Over In His Grave
Peacekeeper
Everybody Finds Out
Miranda
Smile At You
Steal Your Heart Away
Not Make Believe
Down On Rodeo
Goodbye Baby

The best example was the distruction of Smile at You.

I just continually fail to understand how ANYBODY can prefer subpar "demo" versions of "Smile At You" ("angry" or whatever...they all are poorly recorded and the performances are worse than "amateur") over the obviously mega-superior version on SYW. Without McVie's bass line that is on the final SYW version, that song fails on SO MANY levels.

[McTrouble]

I think their is a difference. Yes I am a fan and yes there were songs that I loved at first, but some I did not. Songs like Murrow and Come I listened to the beginning, wasn't big on it, and skipped it. It wasn't until I really listened and began to understand what the song meant until I loved it. And yes, I loved it. When I first heard the CD I was very much into young FM and already went in with the mindset that I wasn't going to like these songs, but I was wrong.
I use Lindsey's first solo album as an example of how something can grow on you, but you may not love it. I can listen to it but I will never love a lot of those songs. They are just too strange, hold little meaning to me personally and I don't like how they sound.

Sure the Smile At You demo may have been better, but wasn't that Stevie's decision to tone it down and not make it sound so angry?

Fleetwood Mac has such a large collection of music and some songs don't even song like they are from the same band! And the only song I really dislike is Empire State :laugh:

And isn't it fantastic that every album is totally different!

Too many bands churn out records that all sound the same - Fleetwood Mac has never done that, thank goodness!

And even though each album is different they still retain the FM magic every time! :nod:

[chriskisn]

It should not take a long time to like a lot of songs on any album. I think it's always interesting when fans say this about an album. I guess if you listen to anything over and over, it can grow on you whether its subpair or not.

I'm certainly one of those who didn't like SYW on first listen. I put it in the CD player and went "what the hell is this?".

By the time I had bought SYW I owned every FM studio album plus all the solo works by Stevie, Lindsey, Christine and a couple of albums by Peter Green, Bob Welch and Dave Mason. SYW wasn't like any of those albums that came before it, I wasn't a big Lindsey fan, and while I generally liked the Stevie songs the Lindsey songs took me by complete surprise.

It took a few listens for the album to grow on me, and a few more years for my music taste to grow and change to really appreciate the Lindsey songs on this album.

I admit there are some albums that you love the moment you hear them, that you constantly played on repeat from the very minute you took it out of the cd case. SYW wasn't one of those, but it certainly isn't "subpar".

Oh and finally, in my opinion, Love Minus Zero/No Limit is the worst of the four Dylan covers done by Fleetwood Mac members/ex members (and Just Like A Woman wasn't a very good attempt by Stevie).

[chriskisn]

I can't really appreciate the song because I barely know who John Stewart is...and even if I did, I still don't think I would like it :laugh:


Well he wrote Daydream Believer if that helps.

He was more than that though, he was one of the most important contributors to folk music and perhaps the least known.

Mention Woodie Guthrie, Joan Baez, Pete Seeger, Bob Dylan and the like and people know their names and at least some of the impact on not only folk music but the whole of America in that late 50's - early 60's period. Mention John Stewart and most people remember he did a song with Stevie Nicks. :shrug:

[aleuzzi]

Wow, such a polarized, love-it-or-hate-it response to SYW.

I actually like the record a lot. Although it does not hold a candle to Fleetwood Mac, Rumours, or Tusk, and it lacks two crucial ingredients of the Rumours-era Mac albums--joy and humor--it still provides a substantial body of songs. And it is miles above Behind the Mask and a good deal of Time.

My impressions of it are mixed, but fundamentally positive. There are enough strong songs and performances by both leads to merit its existence. In my opinion, the middle of it sags. "Come," "Silver Girl" and "Smile at You" are all pretty insufferable, as is Buckingham's "What's the World..." and Nicks's "Goodbye." The two "hits"--"Peacekeeper" and "Say You Will" are dull.

But we're left with some amazing songs. "Red Rover," "Murrow," "Say Goodbye," "Bleed to Love Her," and "Steal Your Heart Away" are all really strong Buckingham songs.

Nicks weighs in with "Illume," "Everybody Finds Out," "Destiny Rules," and "Throw Down."

The good stuff stacks up.

In spirit the album kind of reminds me of Then Play On--two very different songwriters with very different approaches to music shore up the record. The result is an intriguing if occasionally frustrating fragmentation.

[AliceLover]

I'm certainly one of those who didn't like SYW on first listen. I put it in the CD player and went "what the hell is this?".

By the time I had bought SYW I owned every FM studio album plus all the solo works by Stevie, Lindsey, Christine and a couple of albums by Peter Green, Bob Welch and Dave Mason. SYW wasn't like any of those albums that came before it, I wasn't a big Lindsey fan, and while I generally liked the Stevie songs the Lindsey songs took me by complete surprise.

It took a few listens for the album to grow on me, and a few more years for my music taste to grow and change to really appreciate the Lindsey songs on this album.

I admit there are some albums that you love the moment you hear them, that you constantly played on repeat from the very minute you took it out of the cd case. SYW wasn't one of those, but it certainly isn't "subpar".

Oh and finally, in my opinion, Love Minus Zero/No Limit is the worst of the four Dylan covers done by Fleetwood Mac members/ex members (and Just Like A Woman wasn't a very good attempt by Stevie).

I thought that was a Warren Zevon cover? I really love Lindsey's guitar playing and vocals on this one myself!

[Bandon]

I just continually fail to understand how ANYBODY can prefer subpar "demo" versions of "Smile At You" ("angry" or whatever...they all are poorly recorded and the performances are worse than "amateur") over the obviously mega-superior version on SYW. Without McVie's bass line that is on the final SYW version, that song fails on SO MANY levels.

It was just a demo so I don't think most people expected an exact duplication....just something with a little emotion that did not sound like it was created using a computer generated loop. That being said, the mixed critical reviews (including many fans on this site) and lackluster sales figures for SYW speak for themselves. Even Stevie was disappointed with SYW and mandates a different producer for any future albums. Oh, getting dropped from the record company after the CD is also an interesting barometer of how well the work was received.

[David]

It was just a demo so I don't think most people expected an exact duplication.I don't know whether those things are demos. I think they were tracking in the studio. It rawked! Steve's wrong--the band plays it fabulously. There's great power in Mick's drumming, Christine's piano is decent, John is playing good bass, & Lindsey's electric is jagged & puts the Z's in Zorro!

just something with a little emotion that did not sound like it was created using a computer generated loop.That's a good way to describe it. It makes me restless. I keep wanting something to happen, but nothing ever does. It reminds me of "Doing the Best That I Can." Plus, the lead vocal is a real turnoff. What happened to this woman? She used to be such a cool singer.

That being said, the mixed critical reviews (including many fans on this site) and lackluster sales figures for SYW speak for themselves.
Lackluster sales figures only speak for lack of public interest, not for the work itself. How many people went to see the Taviani Brothers' great "La Notte di San Lorenzo"? How many people ordered a subscription to Beethoven's incomparable Great Fugue? How many camels are there in Araby? How many times must the white dove sail?

[michelej1]

Yes, Lindsey always cites the Kingston Trio as one of his musical inspirations. So, it was very touching that John eventually became a fan of Lindsey's as well. Mutual admiration, full circle.

Well he wrote Daydream Believer if that helps.



But Neil Diamond wrote "I'm a Believer" and so I'm going to give him the Monkees' edge, if you don't mind.


Michele

[caroline79]

I think it's because I saw the Live In Boston show before I bought the SYW CD. I immediately adored all the SYW songs done live so it was a foregone conclusion that I was gonna love the CD!

I have yet to see Live in Boston! I need to!

And isn't it fantastic that every album is totally different!

Too many bands churn out records that all sound the same - Fleetwood Mac has never done that, thank goodness!

And even though each album is different they still retain the FM magic every time! :nod:

I can see we agree on so many things :D

That being said, the mixed critical reviews (including many fans on this site) and lackluster sales figures for SYW speak for themselves.

Couldn't the same thing almost be said about Tusk? Maybe 20 years from now people will consider Say You Will a masterpiece :lol:

[chriskisn]

I thought that was a Warren Zevon cover?

:shocked: :lol:

[David]

Couldn't the same thing almost be said about Tusk? Maybe 20 years from now people will consider Say You Will a masterpiece :lol:Critical opinion from the press on Tusk was demonstrably more widely positive than that for Say You Will. Don't you remember the judgments from the L.A. Times, the Philadelphia Enquirer, Rolling Stone, Stereo Review, the New York Times? I think the critics got it right.

This idea that Tusk became a masterpiece only in very recent years is bunk. It wasn't a masterpiece in 1979, & it isn't a masterpiece now. But the press in 1979 considered it weird, wacky, & wondrous.

If Tusk's stature has risen recently, it's only among listeners & maybe musicians.

[caroline79]

Critical opinion from the press on Tusk was demonstrably more widely positive than that for Say You Will. Don't you remember the judgments from the L.A. Times, the Philadelphia Enquirer, Rolling Stone, Stereo Review, the New York Times? I think the critics got it right.

This idea that Tusk became a masterpiece only in very recent years is bunk. It wasn't a masterpiece in 1979, & it isn't a masterpiece now. But the press in 1979 considered it weird, wacky, & wondrous.

If Tusk's stature has risen recently, it's only among listeners & maybe musicians.

Who else is there? That's why I said almost and it was more of a joke. I wasn't alive when Tusk came out and 12 when SYW came out so I honestly have no clue what the critics said. I'm not going to say Tusk is not a masterpiece, because it is to some people. The only point that I was trying to make is that just because "the critics" don't think something is good doesn't mean it isn't.
My dad was a huge FM fan growing up and told me he didn't like Tusk upon it's release, yet he listened to it recently and had a change of opinion. So people's taste in music really can change not just because something has "grown on them."

I guess a lot of us will just have to agree to disagree on this one!

[Villavic]

Say You Will was the first Fleetwood Mac studio album to peak in the top 3 in the US since 1982's Mirage.

Weird. Tango in the Night reached just N.7. And in spite of a great expectation for a new Mac studio album after The Dance (that reached N.1), I thought the Fleetwood Mac momentum was greater in 1987 for a comeback after 5 years, than in 2003 where the music industry was far different(complicated) than in the 80s, and the massive customers are younger and probably look for more popular bands and singers. :shrug:

[jbrownsjr]

Say You Will was the first Fleetwood Mac studio album to peak in the top 3 in the US since 1982's Mirage.

Weird. Tango in the Night reached just N.7. And in spite of a great expectation for a new Mac studio album after The Dance (that reached N.1), I thought the Fleetwood Mac momentum was greater in 1987 for a comeback after 5 years, than in 2003 where the music industry was far different(complicated) than in the 80s, and the massive customers are younger and probably look for more popular bands and singers. :shrug:

Didn't Tango sell about 7 million internationally?

[McTrouble]

I have yet to see Live in Boston! I need to!


I can see we agree on so many things :D



Couldn't the same thing almost be said about Tusk? Maybe 20 years from now people will consider Say You Will a masterpiece :lol:

Oh you really really need to see it - I have to get my Boston fix often. You will LOVE it, Lindsey is just mega superb and mega hot. I urge you to invest in it very soon!

I've been thinking we agree on plenty - especially on the gorgeousness of LB :D

I wish he knew about everyone on here who thinks he's super hot!

[chiliD]

I don't know whether those things are demos. I think they were tracking in the studio. It rawked! Steve's wrong--the band plays it fabulously. There's great power in Mick's drumming, Christine's piano is decent, John is playing good bass, & Lindsey's electric is jagged & puts the Z's in Zorro!


"Fabulously"??? REALLY?? That just makes me question your own standards of musicianship, there, David. I would be embarrassed to even be in the same room with them if I was in the band & they played the way they do on those "demo"/"outtake"/"whatever" versions of "Smile At You". I've heard garage bands of 15 year olds who play with more energy & aptitude than Fleetwood Mac does on those versions.

On the finished SYW version, everything finally comes together and adds punch & intensity.

[seekerj]

I just continually fail to understand how ANYBODY can prefer subpar "demo" versions of "Smile At You" ("angry" or whatever...they all are poorly recorded and the performances are worse than "amateur") over the obviously mega-superior version on SYW. Without McVie's bass line that is on the final SYW version, that song fails on SO MANY levels.

It's very simple. Not EVERYBODY judges by the same things. We all have different things that are important to us. Some people (like me) aren't looking at the technical expertise of the musicianship. It's very obvious that in this situation, those who like the demo versions are picking up on something else. For me, it's the emotion that comes across from the song as a whole. I'm never going to care about the music any further than how well it backs up the message in the words. It's really that simple. We're not all musicians, but we can all relate in general to words and the delivery of them.

[HomerMcvie]

It's very simple. Not EVERYBODY judges by the same things. We all have different things that are important to us. Some people (like me) aren't looking at the technical expertise of the musicianship. It's very obvious that in this situation, those who like the demo versions are picking up on something else. For me, it's the emotion that comes across from the song as a whole. I'm never going to care about the music any further than how well it backs up the message in the words. It's really that simple. We're not all musicians, but we can all relate in general to words and the delivery of them.
I agree, to a point. Like I'm not a very lyrics loving guy. Honestly, unless they're really bad, IT'S THE MUSIC that interests me.
Here are my top ten FM songs....and they're all on the list, because of the VIBE of the music(lyrics be damned!)
Hold Me
YMLF
Gypsy
GYOW
Think About Me
What Makes You Think You're The One
As Long As You Follow
Love Shines
Sister Of The Moon
Sugar Daddy!!!
#11Rhiannon(Great riff- but not included only because I'm sick to death of it)

[jbrownsjr]

It's very simple. Not EVERYBODY judges by the same things. We all have different things that are important to us. Some people (like me) aren't looking at the technical expertise of the musicianship. It's very obvious that in this situation, those who like the demo versions are picking up on something else. For me, it's the emotion that comes across from the song as a whole. I'm never going to care about the music any further than how well it backs up the message in the words. It's really that simple. We're not all musicians, but we can all relate in general to words and the delivery of them.

Agreed, I like anything that moves me or is interesting. Sometimes the simplest things are beautiful to me. And I say that as a musician.

[fairydust75]

jeez....they are just demos.....its the emotion of the lyrics and how the individual listener interprets the meaning of those words that make it come alive and make some of us prefer them to the finished product the demo music was just providing structure for the lyric at that point.
I liked SYW, but Christine was what was missing...She balanced the Fleetwood Mac sound as well as the personal dynamic....
Stevie/Lindsey drama will it never end :shrug:
Something happened at the end of the recording of the album, you can tell at the end of the DR doc. but of course they left all the good stuff out. There was a definite divide and the album and the tour suffered for it.....
.... Maybe.... ' You May Be The One' on Stevie's new album holds some clues. IMO....
in the end we got two solo albums for the high price of one......
Hopefully, IF we get one last Fleetwood Mac album they will get it right... one last time for the road....

[michelej1]

Fleetwood Mac: Say You Will (Reprise)
Barney Hoskyns, Uncut, May 2003

MORE THAN most bands, Fleetwood Mac elicit complex, unresolved feelings. On the one hand they're the ultimate mainstream soft-rock dinosaur, pass masters of glossy emotions and overcooked arrangements. On the other hand...

On the other hand what, exactly? It's not like Fleetwood Mac are Abba – So Uncool They're Cool. But nor have Fleetwood Mac ever been So Cool They're Uncool... if you know what I mean. So what are they, and why does a goodly percentage of their music stand up after decades?

I guess because a) witchy woman Stevie Nicks has the irresistible voice of a petulant siren; b) studio geek Lindsey Buckingham still wants to be Brian Wilson; and c) Fleetwood Mac were and are truly a band for boys and girls. Good things all.

So here they come again, in a post-post-punk hip-hop-dominated universe, keen to make meaningful music. And there's a historical parallel here: just as 1979's "brave, off-the-wall" double-album Tusk followed 1977's stratosphere-busting Rumours, so the almost-double-CD Say You Will follows the play-safe "live greatest hits" thing that was 1997's The Dance.

The funny thing is that Tusk, when you revisit it, doesn't sound off-the-wall at all. Which makes Say You Will all the more out-there as mainstream rock product. Next to Tusk, indeed, this eighteen-track opus is a box of All-Sorts replete with countless different colours and moods.

As one would expect, there's a slew of those Stevie songs that are essentially narcissistic hymns to, well, Stevie Nicks. One of them is called ‘Silver Girl’, no less. Another, ‘Illume’, is a bongo-driven meditation on life-post-9/11 and boasts the priceless line "I am a cliff dweller from the old school". Gotta love the woman: on the closing ‘Goodbye Baby’ she sounds like Kate Bush spliced with Victoria Williams.

Then there are Lindsey's songs, some of which date back to the solo "project" that should have come out after Out Of The Cradle. What makes Say You Will really great are Lindsey tracks like ‘Red Rover’, ‘Come’ and ‘Say Goodbye’. The Buckingham pipes are still a bit bleating but the heady melodicism and thrilling hyper-syncopation of ‘Rover’ are really intoxicating. ‘Come’ starts with softly ambient Salif Keita picking and then blasts into a blaringly histrionic rocker. The shimmering ‘Say Goodbye’ – all dappled guitars and whispered vocals – suggests Lindsey has been listening to modern-day troubadours like Elliott Smith.

The album peaks somewhere in the middle, with ‘Rover’ followed by the effortlessly shiny Steviepop of the title track and then by first single ‘Peace Keeper’, a true Bucks/Nicks joint effort. Both pack killer choruses, as insidiously sweet-sad as vintage Mac classics from ‘Silver Springs’ to ‘Gypsy’. Nicks' ‘Running Through The Garden’ is early-'80s Hippie Power Pop, with a layered keyboard hook and chugging noowave guitar.

For obvious reasons the only flavour missing on Say You Will is the departed Christine's perfect Tango In The Night bop-pop, making the album more Buckingham-Nicks Redux than anything else. (You can hear Chrissie, though, on the moody, thumping ‘Murrow’.) That's OK, because there's so much here to get one's teeth into.

Tusk this album isn't, but Tusk it doesn't need to be. In an age of off-the-shelf Linda Perry pop, Fleetwood Mac keep the mainstream interesting. Say you'll give it a spin.

[mylittledemon]

I guess because a) witchy woman Stevie Nicks has the irresistible voice of a petulant siren; b) studio geek Lindsey Buckingham still wants to be Brian Wilson; and c) Fleetwood Mac were and are truly a band for boys and girls. Good things all.



He nailed it, didn't he?

[Spikey]

Until:
Next to Tusk, indeed, this eighteen-track opus is a box of All-Sorts replete with countless different colours and moods.
Say You Will is a wild album compared to Tusk? No way, Tusk is out there. There's nothing close to "The Ledge" on SYW, Murrow and Come are far more mainstream or at least more hard rocking than obscure, compared to the Tusk work, especially Lindsey's. SYW is very much overall a mainstream album (which didn't help it differentiate from the competitors, IMO), despite a couple of LB oddities.

I will agree there are many musical styles on SYW, which is great. But Tusk has more than half its' tracks differing in style, even within the same genre and style.
That;s why it's my number 1 of all time, it's literally beyond compare (IMO).

or
As one would expect, there's a slew of those Stevie songs that are essentially narcissistic hymns to, well, Stevie Nicks. One of them is called ‘Silver Girl’, no less.
Silver Girl's not even about Stevie, and I think most of her songs on this album are about other people.

or
(You can hear Chrissie, though, on the moody, thumping ‘Murrow’.)
I don't think I need to explain this one.




I agree with a lot of the old article, but it feels sorta like he didn't listen to the album very closely (IMO). Of course, we know a lot more about the album and its history 8 years on..





On demos- the "Smile At You" Mirage demo sounds like a mostly finished track. I don't know if jbrownsjr has heard the version I've heard (he probably has), but I can't believe he said it's embarrassing. It sounds like many Mac Stevie tracks, a little rambly but the music is near flawless.

The disappointing thing, which has been covered ad nauseum, is that Buckingham's rock piece is replaced by that syncopated synthetic boring guitar (similar to what happened to Thrown Down from the original Stevie solo version with Buckingham), and as David said, Stevie's vocals lack emotion. But you could say that about a lot of her vocals on SYW. Maybe it's the production, with her live work and now IYD, we know she hasn't lost it by any stretch.


If I was to nail down feelings on this album, it's that it's very good (without going on, the album is great), that Buckingham's songs are beyond great but sadly don't fit within the environment of the mellow Mac at all (well, songs like Come and Murrow anyway), and that the letdown is the production on the album- it's very random and very poorly done.
The very tight "Bleed To Love Her", for example, is left to ramble on from well past the 3 and a half minute mark to no great end, and there are too numerous other examples to mention.
Also, the single choices. Duh, they suck (I mean, good songs, but awful choices for the lead singles, worst choices BN-era-Mac ever made). Maybe something more like Destiny Rules and Bleed To Love Her, but we could debate that all year, and I'll probably change my mind tomorrow.
The final thing would be that the Dylan cover of Love Minus Zero is excellent, Lindsey really sounds like Bob, which is amazing to me, I didn't think he would, and the song is played really well. Of course it's another one I don't understand why it would have anything to do with a FM album.


Like someone just said, with the DR doc, and with subsequent media, we know it wasn't a good time for S and L by the end of the album and decisions were badly made, mistakes were made, the album didn't turn out how it should. Stevie's unhappy with it, Lindsey seems overall happy with it, I guess because his work was unaltered from his demos and Stevie's were probably really messed with. Anyway.


Anyone else's thoughts?

[jbrownsjr]

Until:

Say You Will is a wild album compared to Tusk? No way, Tusk is out there. There's nothing close to "The Ledge" on SYW, Murrow and Come are far more mainstream or at least more hard rocking than obscure, compared to the Tusk work, especially Lindsey's. SYW is very much overall a mainstream album (which didn't help it differentiate from the competitors, IMO), despite a couple of LB oddities.

I will agree there are many musical styles on SYW, which is great. But Tusk has more than half its' tracks differing in style, even within the same genre and style.
That;s why it's my number 1 of all time, it's literally beyond compare (IMO).

or

Silver Girl's not even about Stevie, and I think most of her songs on this album are about other people.

or

I don't think I need to explain this one.




I agree with a lot of the old article, but it feels sorta like he didn't listen to the album very closely (IMO). Of course, we know a lot more about the album and its history 8 years on..





On demos- the "Smile At You" Mirage demo sounds like a mostly finished track. I don't know if jbrownsjr has heard the version I've heard (he probably has), but I can't believe he said it's embarrassing. It sounds like many Mac Stevie tracks, a little rambly but the music is near flawless.

The disappointing thing, which has been covered ad nauseum, is that Buckingham's rock piece is replaced by that syncopated synthetic boring guitar (similar to what happened to Thrown Down from the original Stevie solo version with Buckingham), and as David said, Stevie's vocals lack emotion. But you could say that about a lot of her vocals on SYW. Maybe it's the production, with her live work and now IYD, we know she hasn't lost it by any stretch.


If I was to nail down feelings on this album, it's that it's very good (without going on, the album is great), that Buckingham's songs are beyond great but sadly don't fit within the environment of the mellow Mac at all (well, songs like Come and Murrow anyway), and that the letdown is the production on the album- it's very random and very poorly done.
The very tight "Bleed To Love Her", for example, is left to ramble on from well past the 3 and a half minute mark to no great end, and there are too numerous other examples to mention.
Also, the single choices. Duh, they suck (I mean, good songs, but awful choices for the lead singles, worst choices BN-era-Mac ever made). Maybe something more like Destiny Rules and Bleed To Love Her, but we could debate that all year, and I'll probably change my mind tomorrow.
The final thing would be that the Dylan cover of Love Minus Zero is excellent, Lindsey really sounds like Bob, which is amazing to me, I didn't think he would, and the song is played really well. Of course it's another one I don't understand why it would have anything to do with a FM album.


Like someone just said, with the DR doc, and with subsequent media, we know it wasn't a good time for S and L by the end of the album and decisions were badly made, mistakes were made, the album didn't turn out how it should. Stevie's unhappy with it, Lindsey seems overall happy with it, I guess because his work was unaltered from his demos and Stevie's were probably really messed with. Anyway.


Anyone else's thoughts?

No that wasn't me Spikey... I like the Mirage vers..

[michelej1]

10 Years Ago: Fleetwood Mac Release ‘Say You Will’

By Dave Swanson April 15, 2013 10:45 AM | Ultimate Classic Rock

http://q1077.com/fleetwood-mac-say-you-will/

After the huge comeback success of the live reunion album, ‘The Dance,’ in 1997, Fleetwood Mac were back in a big way. The obvious questions started flying, asking about the chances of a new Mac LP. In spite of a short round of drama, they answered that question with the full-flying ‘Say You Will, ‘ which was released on April 15, 2003. The album marked the return of Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks to the clan, but also saw the departure of mainstay Christine McVie.

After the 1987 ‘Tango In The Night’ LP, Buckingham left the band to concentrate on his solo career. The Mac soldiered on and issued two more albums, ‘Behind The Mask’ (1990) and ‘Time (1995), by which time Nicks had also split. The 1997 reunion set the stage for big things to come, but following the tour, Christine McVie made the decision to retire. Buckingham, Nicks, John McVie and Mick Fleetwod regrouped as a four-piece to put an album together. Fortunately, they already had a head start.

Lindsey Buckingham had been working on a solo album since the late-’90s and had, in fact, called up his old band mate McVie and Fleetwood to play on a few tracks. A planned album titled ‘Gift Of Screws’ never materialized (the title was used for his 2008 solo set), but tracks from that batch of recordings found a home on ‘Say You Will,’ and after a little tweaking, became full-fledged Fleetwood Mac songs.

‘Miranda,’ ‘Red Rover,’ ‘Come,’ ‘Steal Your Heart Away’ and ‘Murrow Turning Over In His Grave’ — all classic Buckingham tracks — are from those solo sessions. In ‘Murrow,’ Buckingham’s wired and haunting vocal derides the state of media, and coupled with some equally haunting and fiery guitar work, the song just soars. ‘Steal Your Heart Away’ is the hit that got away. It’s pure Fleetwood Mac pop that begged for radio play, but alas, was not to be. Ditto for the LP’s title track, written by Stevie Nicks. ‘Say You Will’ shows Nicks off in her signature style and though it just missed the Top 20, it proved the band were back in top form.

‘Come’ is a very heavy and very harsh rocker that borders on psychotic. Buckingham really lets his demons lose here, delivering a blistering guitar solo, while ‘Red Rover’ shows off a more gentle and intricate guitar style from the man. Meanwhile, other amazing gems like ‘Miranda’ and ‘Bleed To Love Her’ proved that the songwriting fountain of Buckingham was far from dry. The songs on ‘Say You Will’ rank with his best.

That’s not to say it’s all Lindsey’s show here. Miss Nicks puts forth a heaping batch of her own pearls here like ‘Silver Girl,’ ‘Smile At You,’ and the dynamic ‘Destiny Rules,’ which is one of the best tracks on the album. It’s a long record, with 18 tracks that clock in at well over an hour.

‘Say You Will’ hit No. 3 on Billboard and made it to ‘Gold’ status. Though a far cry from the mega-billion and counting sales of ‘Rumours,’ it was definitely a solid showing commercially. Artistically, however, it was a genuine triumph.

The four-piece version of Fleetwood Mac are still together and on the road, but have said that another album might not be in their collective future again. If ‘Say You Will’ were to be the last full-length album the band ever release, it certainly qualifies them as going out on a high note.

[Machu]

I'm a Say You Will advocate. With this album we get amazing songs like Destiny Rules, Miranda, Running Through The Garden, Thrown Down, and Peacekeeper all of which rank among the band's best, imo. It feels a little more Tusk than Rumours but I always liked Tusk better anyways.

[The Highwayman]

Geez, all the people skipping over or disliking some amazing songs on SYW: 'Silver Girl', 'What's The World Coming To', 'Say Goodbye' (!!) and 'Goodbye Baby'. Really? Well, that's opinions for ya. 'Say Goodbye' is the second best song on SYW (nothing can surpass the greatness of 'Thrown Down').

I love this album. I like the white FM album, Rumours, Tusk and Mirage more and Tango at least as much, maybe more, but still, I feel SYW is a strong strong album.

As for the title of this thread, no way is it the best album of all time. Hah, it's not even the best Fleetwood Mac album. Hell, it's not even the best album of 2003.

[secret love]

I really do love some of the songs on SYW... but I just don't think it's a great album. The absolute polarity of Lindsey & Stevie on Tusk was balanced out by the bridge that was Christine. SYW is like Tusk, only minus the bridge. So it comes across as combative & schizophrenic. Stevie definitely brought her best material to the table since Mirage (yes, I'm counting Behind The Mask). But it just had no relation or commonality to Lindsey's material. I think this stepping stone was one that was necessary to happen, though. I think Stevie & Lindsey needed to trip, fall, and bloody themselves up. And hopefully they'll be better for it on the next album. And I truly do think there will be one more 'next album.' :)

i disagree that Stevie's material had no commonality to Lindsey's. I do feel a genuine ongoing emotional dialogue in the majority of these 18 songs (not counting the first 3 songs because they are all about wordly concerns or media politics in the case of Murrow).

Thrown Down is the true gem on the album I do agree. Why not play it on the tour though, and why on Earth was it not a single? I honestly believe they could have a platinum single with Thrown Down had it been released in 2003 when it was still poignant for Buckingham and Nicks' relationship. It is Stevie's songwriting at its most honest, raw; emotional. Thrown Down describes the tragedy of Stevie and Lindsey being unable to reconcile their differences and reunite during 1997's The Dance. Had she debuted the song during The Dance tour ...I can only imagine the soaring success and the gossip column space it would have had.

Steal Your Heart Away feels like Lindsey's response to Thrown Down ...and it is what the title says. We suffer, our feelings from the heart, our loves and hopes of romance are cruelly dashed before we can offer any protest. In his case, Kirsten became pregnant with his son...is this correct? So no Buckingham Nicks romance revisted fortunately...or unfortunately.

Then Rappacini's Daughter [Running Through the Garden] what a rocker. Should have kept it in the tour setlist, it's a shame the Mac has only once played it live.

Destiny Rules...wow...the funny thing is I was singing that song and Mum said "Oh my God, did you write that? James you could sell that song!" I explained that it was written by Stevie Nicks and later played the studio version to Mum and she said "hm, No I liked it better when you were singing it". This is somewhat concerning as Mum said this quite honestly and went on to say she didn't like the sound of Stevie's voice on that song..."nasally"...I am not a lead singer like Miss Nicks. I play some basic piano and that's all so really she should sound better than me! :laugh:

I do love SYW; esp the above songs despite my DR comments and also Smile at You (the angry demo), What's the World Coming to, Illume, Come (which Mum thinks sounds Chinese :D), Silver Girl ("I wrote it about Sheryl Crow"-S.N.), Say Goodbye (live...I dislike the studio recording...same thing with Bleed to Love her) and Goodbye Baby

so...

1. Say You Will
2. Peacekeeper
3. What's the World Coming to
4. Illume (9-11)
5. Come
6. Running Through the Garden
7. Silver Girl
8. Steal Your Heart Away
9. Thrown Down
10. Bleed to Love her
11. Say Goodbye [Live]
12. The Tower (Goodbye Baby)

The dozen songs above for me are musical bliss. Excluded Smile at You because sorry Stevie - you just don't have that fiery angry passion of 1982 in your voice in 2013!

[secret love]

The person I quoted previously said, I think, that he believes there will be another Mac album. i forgot to say that I support this view.

There is a thread somewhere in the ether here in the Lindsey forum with the titles to the remaining 4 unreleased tracks - presumably also Fleetwood Mac songs, as Sad Angel and Miss Fantasy were included in this list someone dug up in 2012. Goes something like this

Sad Angel
Without You
It Takes Time
Miss Fantasy
In my World
Is it Right
Lay Down for Free
Hunger
On with the Show

(The last song is possibly merely the previous working title for Miss Fantasy - remember the line "10000 voices crying, on with the show..."

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?p=1083019

I know Stevie is not on the Internet, but if she is doubtful about whether Mac fans want new music she needn't be...we all clearly do want new music and I think we agree that something is better than nothing (though given the complaining and scathing reviews I read about Extended Play on these boards...)

Stevie should release some of her old demos for sure - Space Needle from 2000/TISL; Call on me for Magic; Blue Water; Nomad (ok - not a demo - more in the same vein as Without You).

But SN really needs to sit down at the piano and write again, while she still has her health and her voice. I know 65 is almost considered just past middle age when we have many people living to be 90 or 102 but Stevie needs to realise...
it's all well and good to boast that you will be singing into your 80's [which she did just this year]...but there's a strong possibility she only has 10-15 years left and to not make any new music in that time would be to waste her talents and disappoint her loyal fans. It also means she doesn't realise her own publicly stated dreams of wanting to record again (solo).

[Dex]

Secret Love, I don't think Stevie has indicated anywhere that she isn't going to be creating and releasing new music in the near future. I do think it's pretty clear from her comments over the past decade that she finds Fleetwood Mac in the studio to be creatively unrewarding. She's drawn to being a part of the "big name" that is Fleetwood Mac, so she keeps a foot in for that reason (also, let's face it, the cash is good). But honestly, I think the older she gets, the less inclined she is going to be to put herself through experiences she just plain ol' dislikes, and her priorities will shift towards solo work. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm sure she said in an interview somewhere that she was unhappy with Say You Will because she thought all the demos for her songs were better than what was released. And, much as I love Say You Will (I love it a lot, you guys), I kinda take her point in most cases. I think there's a general fan consensus that Lindsey's solo GOS versions of the SYW songs were superior as well. So while I absolutely adore the album, I think it's fair to say it wasn't really a success artistically.

[Villavic]

I think Say You Will might be my favorite Fleetwood Mac CD. It's weird because I wouldn't have thought it would be, I actually dreaded even listening to it thinking I would hate it so much.
:

So this thread should be titled "my favorite album", not the best album of all time. Actually there is not an absoulte "best album", but SYW is far from that place.

[secret love]

It was just a demo so I don't think most people expected an exact duplication....just something with a little emotion that did not sound like it was created using a computer generated loop. That being said, the mixed critical reviews (including many fans on this site) and lackluster sales figures for SYW speak for themselves. Even Stevie was disappointed with SYW and mandates a different producer for any future albums. Oh, getting dropped from the record company after the CD is also an interesting barometer of how well the work was received.

The SYW record was certified Gold in the States and quite possibly, since no one knows exactly how many units were sold (last count that I read of was 800,000) Say You Will quite possible sold enough units in the US to reach Platinum status (1,000,000). It sold better than Behind the Mask and definitely better than Time.

And it does seem that the non-hard-core fans and general public (i.e. casual fans or people not very familiar or totally unfamiliar with Fleetwood Mac) are not interested in new Fleetwood Mac music now, and were not very interested in SYW at the time of its release either. To assume this is because of the album being of poor quality is fallacious and it would be difficult to establish cause and effect as to why Fleetwood Mac did not achieve P<5> or even better as they have previously but I think it is too late for them to do that now, and in 2003, it was already too late - especially without Christine churning out some more hits. Maybe some of her In the Meantime songs or leftover songs from The Dance (as she said publicly she wrote about 10 songs in preparation for the MTV Dance 'Mac special) would have boosted SYW's sales.

Bands and solo artists aged over 40, let alone 50 or 60 tend not to sell many copies of non-greatest hits new release studio albums. Fleetwood Mac's EP has zero airplay in Sydney, Australia to my knowledge not even classic hits radio stations have played Sad Angel or Without You or [gasp] Miss Fantasy and It Takes Time.

Anyway - sales is not necessarily an indicator of quality in the music industry.

And I love how SYW is so divisive - even more so than Tusk. Lots of people love Tusk among devoted fans on the Ledge, a few hate, some are in between but SYW seems to be very much love or hate with only a few people indifferent about it going by this thread. A lot of people are tending towards hating it though and I think they are missing out because it is a great album to me, but diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

And the Smile at You angry demo from '82 is my favourite version of the song because of the intensely passionate, vengeful vocals Stevie Nicks delivers within it, not because of the lack of John's strong rhythmic bass...I think he adds a lot to the band and is without a doubt an indispensable part of Fleetwood Mac. Okay maybe Paul McCartney could fill his shoes but it just wouldn't be the same - the music would sound pretty much the same but the band dynamic would be fqcked. I do miss Stevie's Janis Joplin-style belting out of tunes like this angry demo and the Rhiannon live performances from the mid seventies to early eighties described by Mick as being "like an exorcism". Then Stevie finally learnt to sing from her diaphragm for every song from the nineties onwards and as a result of singing with her throat/breathing from the upper lungs during singing for 25 years or more her voice inevitably suffered.

Nowadays the highlight of the current tour appears to be Gold Dust Woman (which also rated well during Unleashed 2009) and the stellar performance of Stand Back from the SYW tour (well, Live in Boston 2003) has faded fast. Stevie still sings extremely well but she is singing songs that used to mean something 20- or 30- years ago and are not relevant to her current situation so some of that fiery passion is inevitably lost.

[iamnotafraid]

If ‘Say You Will’ were to be the last full-length album the band ever release, it certainly qualifies them as going out on a high note.



If they could still hit high notes that statement wouldn't
be so funny.

[mitzo]

I loved SYW from the get-go. To me it is a great SN album, with her strongest FM work since Tusk, mostly thanks to the choice of songs and yes, Lindsey's production (her solo work often suffers from ho-hum production). After a bit of a disappointment with TISL, to me, Mama was back in a big way with SYW. Lindsey's own stuff on SYW is, again like Tusk, too self-absorbed and inaccessible to me, too much screeching and faux growling and guitar soloing on into the night:distress:. Steal Your Heart Away is the only exception. Anyway I love SYW and am glad they made it. Although I only ever listen to roughly half of it :D

[TotallyTusked]

Yeah, I mean, Say You Will has some great songs on it... and I might be one of a minority that absolutely LOVES Stevie's matured voice (on SYW particularly) but I agree, I doesn't quite make the cut as an ALBUM.
Lindsey is the spectacle here, once again, and his songs are definitely the stand-outs of the album. Simply, I think that there were too many songs I skipped, and the absence of Christine weighed the LP down more than I thought it would. It's not all that bad, but not stellar. I think this is where the Rumours lineup (minus C.M) kinda lost the plot with FM's style of music the most. We see a classic Mac sound again in this year's EP, but Say You Will is a bit out of it in my opinion.

[secret love]

Yeah, I mean, Say You Will has some great songs on it... and I might be one of a minority that absolutely LOVES Stevie's matured voice (on SYW particularly) but I agree, I doesn't quite make the cut as an ALBUM.
Lindsey is the spectacle here, once again, and his songs are definitely the stand-outs of the album. Simply, I think that there were too many songs I skipped, and the absence of Christine weighed the LP down more than I thought it would. It's not all that bad, but not stellar. I think this is where the Rumours lineup (minus C.M) kinda lost the plot with FM's style of music the most. We see a classic Mac sound again in this year's EP, but Say You Will is a bit out of it in my opinion.

Respectfully I disagree - there are far too many Lindsey dud songs on SYW. Murrow, Red Rover, Miranda, Say Goodbye are just sub-par for someone as talented as Buckingham and did not really excite me as I listened to them for the first time. Miranda I used to like but after a few listens it wore thin. Say Goodbye is just cliché central, as is Red Rover. Murrow is too frenetic musically and the lyric doesn't make a lot of sense. I loved the four new Stevie songs Illume, Destiny Rules, Say You Will and Silver Girl - they make a neat little EP-style playlist like that. What's the World Coming To, Peacekeeper and Come are all really cool.

I agree the collection of 9 Lindsey songs and 9 Stevie songs does not work very well as a cohesive Fleetwood Mac album but I am grateful that the band worked hard to perfect these songs and release them as Say You Will. SYW is the record which spiked my interest in Fleetwood Mac. I'm only 20 so was largely unfamiliar with the Mac's music for most of my childhood except for Rumours songs which get played to death on Sydney radio station 101.7 W.S. F.M. The Live in Boston 2003 film clips on YouTube hooked me in last year, so I downloaded SYW on iTunes (subsequently I've purchased 90% of the Rumours line-up Fleetwood Mac catalogue).

SYW is definitely not the greatest Fleetwood Mac album for me. It is not the greatest album of 2003, its year of release (I have a soft spot for Pink's Try This from the same year). But it is an outstanding musical work and I'm glad to have it. If only the band could gets its act together and do just one final, new Fleetwood Mac studio album! 12 tracks minimum thanks! Or at least something new from Stevie :nod:

[Dex]

Respectfully I disagree - there are far too many Lindsey dud songs on SYW. Murrow, Red Rover, Miranda, Say Goodbye are just sub-par for someone as talented as Buckingham and did not really excite me as I listened to them for the first time. Miranda I used to like but after a few listens it wore thin. Say Goodbye is just cliché central, as is Red Rover. Murrow is too frenetic musically and the lyric doesn't make a lot of sense. I loved the four new Stevie songs Illume, Destiny Rules, Say You Will and Silver Girl - they make a neat little EP-style playlist like that. What's the World Coming To, Peacekeeper and Come are all really cool.

I like you, secret love, but I really can't make any sense of any of this! :laugh:

Murrow too frenetic and nonsensical, but Come is really cool. Say Goodbye cliche central but you really like Silver Girl. Miranda (!!!) wears thin but not Say You Will. My mind is having trouble processing all of these. ;) Different strokes, though!

Generally, I really like almost every song on the album (Silver Girl and Come being ones I sort of struggle with) but I can see why people say Lindsey "shines" here. His work on the album is just showier. He's a great guitarist going absolutely crazy on his guitar and demonstrating the heights of his skill level whenever possible. Stevie is a great singer-songwriter, but her voice and lyrical content are more subdued on much of SYW compared to the work that made her famous. I can just see Lindsey hitting harder for many listeners.

[TrueFaith77]

I had two friends, totally independent of each other, who had gotten the album on my urging both enthuse: "Greatest album EVER!"

For me, I do consider SYW to be the best American album of the '00s.

[secret love]

I like you, secret love, but I really can't make any sense of any of this! :laugh:

Murrow too frenetic and nonsensical, but Come is really cool. Say Goodbye cliche central but you really like Silver Girl. Miranda (!!!) wears thin but not Say You Will. My mind is having trouble processing all of these. ;) Different strokes, though!

Generally, I really like almost every song on the album (Silver Girl and Come being ones I sort of struggle with) but I can see why people say Lindsey "shines" here. His work on the album is just showier. He's a great guitarist going absolutely crazy on his guitar and demonstrating the heights of his skill level whenever possible. Stevie is a great singer-songwriter, but her voice and lyrical content are more subdued on much of SYW compared to the work that made her famous. I can just see Lindsey hitting harder for many listeners.

I like Come because it's the only overtly sexual song Fleetwood Ma have ever produced. It was shocking at first but awesome too. Murrow is all right but just a tad too political...I don't connect with a lyric about the lack of integrity in modern journalism...how can I relate to that? It doesn't make me feel anything. It's just Lindsey having a good old rant...get off that high horse Linds! And I must admit as a Stevie fan I'm biased. Even though her voice has changed, it's rougher and huskier on SYW than it was before, Stevie can sing the Yellow Pages and make it sound soothing and intriguing. Silver Girl just hooked me in because at first I thought it was about Christine. Then later I read it was actually written about Sheryl Crow...and there is something about listening to Stevie sing about her friend in such a sweet voice, and with such honesty...that although there are many cliches in the lyric...it's still a great song for me.

Miranda is one of those songs I have to be in a certain mood to really enjoy. Its a kinda kooky crazy song. It just makes me want to be silly and stupid and dance. But sometimes you just play a song too many times you know? And you did like it but now you know it too well, so it's boring? That's Miranda for you. The song Say You Will, what can I say? It just gives me an instant happy buzz every time I listen to it. So groovy, yes so commercial but oh it's Stevie! And it's so cute. :p

I think for Stevie to really shine and grab people's attention she has to play an instrument? I don't know. If she played piano on stage...I would just die to see her sing and play Planets of the Universe. Just her and a grand piano. No band. Just that intimate feel of the original demo live in concert - that would be wow.

I kind feel sad for Stevie that she feels the need to have other people produce her songs so extensively. Really her piano demos are works of art in themselves in many cases. I don't care that she doesn't know 100 chords. She can play and she can play well...she needs more confidence in her ability. And I guess she doesn't believe fans would care to see her do anything other than sing. But I would. With some of her songs, what ended up released compared to the demo she made by herself is worse...it's like, why did you have to wreck the beautiful, intimate feel and emotion of your song with this cacophony of instruments and synthesizers and whizz bang production?

[bluefox4000]

Album could use some serious trimming of fat. There's some good stuff but it's Way too packed. if you're gonna make a long album. you better have class A materiel across the board. It's kinda sad that SYW is most likely how they're going out. Putting aside the EP i mean.

Mick

[Macfanforever]

Yes I agree for most recent album .Plus since it had alot of radio airplay at the time as it was release.

[KarmaContestant]

If Say You Will had a vinyl release, I'd be all over it.

Maybe I'll put the CD in the car for tomorrow's commute.

[FierySequences]

I really enjoyed SYW and still do, even without CM. I don't want to count this as their swan song....I'm still holding out for something special with Chris. New Material Please!

[vivfox]

Really her piano demos are works of art in themselves in many cases. I don't care that she doesn't know 100 chords. She can play and she can play well...she needs more confidence in her ability. And I guess she doesn't believe fans would care to see her do anything other than sing. But I would. With some of her songs, what ended up released compared to the demo she made by herself is worse...it's like, why did you have to wreck the beautiful, intimate feel and emotion of your song with this cacophony of instruments and synthesizers and whizz bang production?
After having and loving her demos for many years I used to say that Stevie went into the studio and spent thousands of dollars to destroy her songs. It looks like you would agree.

[vivfox]

Really her piano demos are works of art in themselves in many cases. I don't care that she doesn't know 100 chords. She can play and she can play well...she needs more confidence in her ability.


She is an amazing piano player. But the 2 times she allows us to see her playing piano in the IYD doc, she plays horribly. I don't understand why she chose those segments to highlight her piano skills.

[elle]

Murrow is all right but just a tad too political...I don't connect with a lyric about the lack of integrity in modern journalism...how can I relate to that? It doesn't make me feel anything. It's just Lindsey having a good old rant...get off that high horse Linds! And I must admit as a Stevie fan I'm biased.

see i feel just the opposite. when i first started listening to LB's and FM lyrics, i just kept thinking - stop!! what a bunch of self-centered & self-important a-holes! look around you, people, there's a whole wide world around you with bunch of problems and you bunch of indulgent rich people keep whining about you love life for 40 years like you are the only ones and that's the most important thing ever?!

so i was really happy to hear some political or other non-love songs from Lindsey, and that he actually finally stopped being so completely self-indulgent for a change.

and, how can you NOT relate to talk about the media? aren't you spending at least some time watching tv, or reading stuff on your computer? just my 0.02.

[secret love]

see i feel just the opposite. when i first started listening to LB's and FM lyrics, i just kept thinking - stop!! what a bunch of self-centered & self-important a-holes! look around you, people, there's a whole wide world around you with bunch of problems and you bunch of indulgent rich people keep whining about you love life for 40 years like you are the only ones and that's the most important thing ever?!

so i was really happy to hear some political or other non-love songs from Lindsey, and that he actually finally stopped being so completely self-indulgent for a change.

and, how can you NOT relate to talk about the media? aren't you spending at least some time watching tv, or reading stuff on your computer? just my 0.02.

I guess what I was trying to say is that yes, I agree with the point of view Lindsey is trying to communicate in Murrow. The modern media in my country of Australia are biased and they focus on issues which the owners of the newspapers consider important and then neglect issues which would generate negative publicity for the owners of the papers. How about Rupert Murdoch and his team of people at News Corp grossly invading the privacy of celebrities and people in general by tapping their phones. It is shameful.

BUT! Murrow to me is just ...not very accessible ...it alienates me as the listener. When I listen to music I like to hear a story, it is escapism. To be reminded about how crappy the world is and how corrupt the "free press" is just annoys me. I agree that the people in Fleetwood Mac do appear to be largely self-centred and it annoys me when they complain about their troubles which are mainly self-inflicted... [warning: I'm about to be a bit controversial here] Stevie Nicks would not have a hole in her nose and a less pleasant voice had she not done cocaine. And she would possibly not have asthma either. And she would not have had that chronic fatigue in the 1990s if she had not had breast implants inside her (by her own choice) leaking toxins into her body. And she would not be alone if she was more open to accommodating the needs men have...not sexual needs :laugh:...needs like, if I'm living with my girlfriend I don't want to share the house with a nosy butler and an annoying bitch named Karen and an array of other random people. I'd want to be able to live quietly and in peace with my lover.

So yeah it is refreshing to hear Fleetwood Mac sing about worldly concerns for a change, but I think Stevie does this much better in Illume than Lindsey did in Murrow. And I loved What's the World Coming to. But Murrow just did not gel with me. Too...all over the place... I like my music to contain some sort of pattern or a consistent pleasant melody ...Murrow doesn't really have that.

[mitzo]

After having and loving her demos for many years I used to say that Stevie went into the studio and spent thousands of dollars to destroy her songs. It looks like you would agree.

I have to agree but add that with FM/Lindsey her songs are elevated by production, while solo they have been ruined more times than not. It is not about instruments and synths, it is about overall quality and vision.

[Dex]

see i feel just the opposite. when i first started listening to LB's and FM lyrics, i just kept thinking - stop!! what a bunch of self-centered & self-important a-holes! look around you, people, there's a whole wide world around you with bunch of problems and you bunch of indulgent rich people keep whining about you love life for 40 years like you are the only ones and that's the most important thing ever?!

so i was really happy to hear some political or other non-love songs from Lindsey, and that he actually finally stopped being so completely self-indulgent for a change.

and, how can you NOT relate to talk about the media? aren't you spending at least some time watching tv, or reading stuff on your computer? just my 0.02.


:laugh: I'd probably use less harsh words, but generally I agree with the sentiment of this post. There's nothing wrong with being the typical narcissistic singer-songwriter, which is what Stevie and Lindsey have both made their fortune on, but it is a nice change of pace to see them focusing outward from time to time. It makes them feel more human, even. I don't understand how anyone could consider a song like Murrow "un-relatable", but I guess that isn't really quite what secret love meant. And if he/she (I don't know sl, sorry!) doesn't get what (s)he needs to out of that song, as a music listener, then that's a-ok.

For me, Murrow was the song that convinced me that I was a Fleetwood Mac fan beyond just a Stevie fan. I won't pretend to be all about the lyrical content. I had no idea what he was saying the first time I listened. The instrumentation on that song is just perfection to my ears. I couldn't not love it.

[Dex]

After having and loving her demos for many years I used to say that Stevie went into the studio and spent thousands of dollars to destroy her songs. It looks like you would agree.

I'm sure I read a quote somewhere where Stevie was expressing frustration that after spending thousands recording songs in the studio, her friends would often ask to just listen to her old demo tapes of her just banging the songs out, because they preferred them. Does anyone know what I might be thinking of?

I like your quote, viv, but I do think you might be exaggerating a touch. I'm not sure I'd say that all, or even most, of Stevie's songs have been marred by overproduction. But I can see what you're talking about in many cases. Some of her songs really do benefit from the feeling of intimacy created in her demos, which very rarely translates to her final product. And that's really a shame. I think perhaps the key would be getting her to identify less as a "rock star" and more just as a singer-songwriter. She has had a tendency over the years to want to make her songs "rock" when perhaps they shouldn't. But then, I can't really say that about any songs on IYD. Maybe she's finally got it.

[vivfox]

when i first started listening to LB's and FM lyrics, i just kept thinking - stop!! what a bunch of self-centered & self-important a-holes! look around you, people, there's a whole wide world around you with bunch of problems and you bunch of indulgent rich people keep whining about you love life for 40 years like you are the only ones and that's the most important thing ever?!


This paragraph cracked me up. One of the qualities I enjoy about FM's lyrics is that they take me away from all the world's problems and transport my mind to a more cushy place.

[wheart]

Sh*t no. I hate the thing. Such a lazy effort:sorry:

Mick

Agreed. If they had just cut it down to 12 or so songs, it would have been so much stronger and far more enjoyable to listen to.

[Dex]

Agreed. If they had just cut it down to 12 or so songs, it would have been so much stronger and far more enjoyable to listen to.

People say this, but there seems to be very little consensus over which 12 songs should've made the cut. I dislike overlong albums, too, but in this case I can't tell whether "trimming the fat" would improve or actually worsen fan-opinion of the album, given the sheer diversity of opinion on each song.

[michelej1]

see i feel just the opposite. when i first started listening to LB's and FM lyrics, i just kept thinking - stop!! what a bunch of self-centered & self-important a-holes! look around you, people, there's a whole wide world around you with bunch of problems and you bunch of indulgent rich people keep whining about you love life for 40 years like you are the only ones and that's the most important thing ever?!

so i was really happy to hear some political or other non-love songs from Lindsey, and that he actually finally stopped being so completely self-indulgent for a change.



With a few exceptions (One Take), I don't like social songs. On the other hand, I think 95% of all songs are social. I don't see love songs as self-indulgent (unless they're treacly, in which case I see them as emotionally manipulative, not into "feel good"). If they're angry, condemn or observe a relationship, I don't care whose relationship it is, it often speaks to me. It might be a love or break up song, but it usually says something about humans universally that takes it far beyond whatever personal pain the songwriter was describing.

Moreover, despite all the press the FM players get about their personal strife, I don't think see all of their songs as being about that or as being insular. They mean something much bigger to me than the compartmentalization and separations they are asked to discuss so much in interviews. For someone to break Come down and say it is about Anne Heche is interesting to me as a fan, but I think it does all the things the song can mean an injustice, really. I want to know what they say the song is about, but it's never just about that to me.

Many times, I'll take snatches of a song "dusty fury on a mountain top" and apply it to something else. I know a lot of times when I think of a ditty like "Can't Go Back" it's in my mind because I'm focusing on aging or recalling conversations with people who have died. It's not about Lindsey or FM --- but when I think of the song with them in the context, it's very meaningful to me that way too.

Although there are exceptions ("Family Man" springs to mind), usually I think the meaning of a song is only constrained by the limitations of my own thoughts and feelings. If they sang, "oh Mickey you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind, hey Mickey!" Then, I might tend to agree with you more.

Michele

[michelej1]

^Oh, not that I don't have fond memories of that Tony Basil song and video, 'cause I do!

[wheart]

People say this, but there seems to be very little consensus over which 12 songs should've made the cut. I dislike overlong albums, too, but in this case I can't tell whether "trimming the fat" would improve or actually worsen fan-opinion of the album, given the sheer diversity of opinion on each song.

good point! I, for one, adore Silver Girl and would definitely include it on the "abridged" version but I have heard much dislike of this song so go figure! I would leave off Smile at You, Come, Say Goodbye, Goodbye Baby, Running Through the Garden, and Bleed to Love Her.

[mitzo]

I'm sure I read a quote somewhere where Stevie was expressing frustration that after spending thousands recording songs in the studio, her friends would often ask to just listen to her old demo tapes of her just banging the songs out, because they preferred them. Does anyone know what I might be thinking of?

I like your quote, viv, but I do think you might be exaggerating a touch. I'm not sure I'd say that all, or even most, of Stevie's songs have been marred by overproduction. But I can see what you're talking about in many cases. Some of her songs really do benefit from the feeling of intimacy created in her demos, which very rarely translates to her final product. And that's really a shame. I think perhaps the key would be getting her to identify less as a "rock star" and more just as a singer-songwriter. She has had a tendency over the years to want to make her songs "rock" when perhaps they shouldn't. But then, I can't really say that about any songs on IYD. Maybe she's finally got it.

Totally agree about the ill effects of the drive to "rock." To me that has blighted her solo efforts a lot, starting right back with the detrimental Tom Petty alliance right through most solo albums. Her creativity has been stifled as a result and the magic badly tarnished.

[secret love]

I have to agree but add that with FM/Lindsey her songs are elevated by production, while solo they have been ruined more times than not. It is not about instruments and synths, it is about overall quality and vision.

I am also of the opinion vivfox expressed that Stevie creates gorgeous, touching and poignant music on her own at home (with some limited input from her musician friends). Then she goes into the studio to record these so called "demo CDs" and convert them to "new albums".

As a Stevie fan I'd really love to have access to a high-quality acoustic album from Stevie (I know most of her demos are available on YouTube but it is not the same). The 1980 demo of Secret Love is a prime example of how she paid $1000+ to ruin a beautiful song...the 1982 Smile at You (Angry Demo) is another classic example. And it is not just that her voice sounds better because she had not yet damaged it (of course we all know she has a whole in her nasal septum as a result of cocaine abuse which changed the sound of her instrument/voice).

If you haven't already listened to this Ledgies... do yourself a favour

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/OltUuI0kv38" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[secret love]

good point! I, for one, adore Silver Girl and would definitely include it on the "abridged" version but I have heard much dislike of this song so go figure! I would leave off Smile at You, Come, Say Goodbye, Goodbye Baby, Running Through the Garden, and Bleed to Love Her.

That's funny! I'd probably leave off Smile at You, Say Goodbye and Bleed to Love Her, too (I like Bleed to Love Her but it was already released on The Dance album: the live version is better than the studio cut in my honest opinion).

But- I love Come, Goodbye Baby and Running Through the Garden. Come and Rappacini's Daughter (that's what it should be called...because Stevie lifted the lyrical story of Running Through the Garden from that tale from the 1800's) are both great rocking songs whereas Goodbye Baby is the opposite: a soft, slow and gentle ballad: the perfect closer to almost any Fleetwood Mac playlist (look I know lots of people don't like G.B. but I have been known to shed a tear occasionally when I listen to that song, I'm not to proud too admit).

I think Say You Will is fine as it is. Almost every song on the album has touched my life in some way. And to shorten the album only redefines the SYW album as an artwork, it does not change the poor production of Stevie's songs, for example. Too many of Stevie's songs were overproduced; I like the mix on Thrown Down and on Say You Will, also Destiny Rules and Illume are produced and mixed quite well. Silver Girl's production is awful. Goodbye Baby...well it's okay, it was well-produced, but the song was not well-produced if your name is Lindsey Buckingham and you have been produced albums for over 30 years and should be able to do better!

Really I can understand Stevie's dissatisfaction with SYW. Lindsey was a complete arsehole during the production of it if Destiny Rules doco is anything to go by. Take for instance the scene with Stevie, Linds and Karen sitting in studio discussion how SN's lawyers are involved - contracts with outside producers, choice of producers etc.: Stevie just bursts out at one point in this very honest, hurt tone:

"Oh Lindsey, no! Why are you saying that!" It was so cute ...but I felt sorry for her. He doesn't take her seriously and he stirs the pot publicly to annoy Stevie. He knows the cameras are there so he gets her riled up. LB does appear to be a bit of a bully. ;) Take for instance how he still holds that grudge "Stevie still hasn't thanked me for [working with her on] Say You Will". Newsflash: I don't thank my co-workers when we do something together as part of a team: it is all part of the job. No need to thank anyone. Just be happy that you could share some time with Stevie...but no, LB holds on to these stupid grudges. And his whole "Christine really burned all her bridges when she moved to England after The Dance tour..."

[Desiree]

I really do love some of the songs on SYW... but I just don't think it's a great album. The absolute polarity of Lindsey & Stevie on Tusk was balanced out by the bridge that was Christine. SYW is like Tusk, only minus the bridge. So it comes across as combative & schizophrenic. Stevie definitely brought her best material to the table since Mirage (yes, I'm counting Behind The Mask). But it just had no relation or commonality to Lindsey's material. I think this stepping stone was one that was necessary to happen, though. I think Stevie & Lindsey needed to trip, fall, and bloody themselves up. And hopefully they'll be better for it on the next album. And I truly do think there will be one more 'next album.' :)

I agree! I also think that if LB and SN were to produce the next record TOGETHER perhaps that could work out well, (I know but a girl can wish!) I remember reading a quote Ken C made about Stevie having great ideas in the studio and from the last two films, Destiny Rules and IYD's it's obvious that she is totally involved these days when it comes to her music. LB just can't call the shots in the studio anymore because if he tries to, we will never get another FM record with SN. He might have known what to do with her music back in the day, but his heavy handed production on her SYW songs almost or did ruin them! And really, most of her songs for that record were great! I loved the first demo I heard of Thrown Down, and that song is killer and very revealing..:o

[Desiree]

After having and loving her demos for many years I used to say that Stevie went into the studio and spent thousands of dollars to destroy her songs. It looks like you would agree.

I certainly agree...not all but many...:(

[secret love]

I agree! I also think that if LB and SN were to produce the next record TOGETHER perhaps that could work out well, (I know but a girl can wish!) I remember reading a quote Ken C made about Stevie having great ideas in the studio and from the last two films, Destiny Rules and IYD's it's obvious that she is totally involved these days when it comes to her music. LB just can't call the shots in the studio anymore because if he tries to, we will never get another FM record with SN. He might have known what to do with her music back in the day, but his heavy handed production on her SYW songs almost or did ruin them! And really, most of her songs for that record were great! I loved the first demo I heard of Thrown Down, and that song is killer and very revealing..:o

If Stevie and Lindsey could manage to get along just long enough to produce a record together I think that the result would be an absolute kick-ass album. Buckingham and Nicks are currently stating publicly that they are getting on the best they ever have in years. Stevie admitted that she said sorry to Lindsey (in the Sunday Night Australian TV interview at the Sacramento US show). Sorry for what I'm not sure? Sorry for dumping him in 1977? Sorry for not getting back together with him in 1997? God only knows...he is clearly somewhat stuck in the past at least on a professional level: songs like oh I don't know, Sad Angel, It Takes Time and my personal ahem favourite, Miss Fantasy ...these songs just say to me: stalker creep alert! :laugh: Kidding ... but I think maybe Lindsey needed to hear a sorry from Stevie, whether it be, "Sorry for making the Say You Will Tour so difficult and straining our relationship with my professional hang-ups about you wrecking my songs." OR
"Sorry, Linds, we will always be friends but I do not love you. You have effectively been out of my life for 10 years except when we are on the road and working. I should have tried harder to be more considerate of your feelings. I know that you feel wronged by me. But I do not love you, I stopped loving you 36 years ago. Yes I felt those butterflies in my stomach too during the Dance tour - but it was just lust ...nothing more. You had a pregnant girlfriend at the time. So I just can't, Lindsey. I want to be your friend. And I want it to be easy. I don't want to struggle anymore. I want us to get along. Because I did once love you. And maybe one day I'll love again...but ...we can only ever be friends and nothing more."

These are two very different "sorries" and I would love to be a fly on the wall when Stevie and Linds are alone together. Their relationship is so bizarre in that normally after a breakup you do not need to see your lover again...but 36 years later they are still working together on a regular basis.

A new Mac album with LMJS would be amazing. And just two new Christine McVie songs would melt my heart.

ETA: You know Stevie once said one day she will write a book and tell the whole story of the relationships and excess in her life in general, and with Lindsey and the band. I found this quite funny and ironic:almost every song Buckingham and Nicks write is about each other. Then it occurred to me: what do I know? I'm just some random guy who listens to their music. I don't know Stevie, Lindsey, Mick, John or Christine. And I bet you all the mystery and intrigue about Lindsey and Stevie's relationship is already blatantly obvious and transparent to their friends and family. I really don't think Stevie has any more secrets to share. She has lived her life as an open book. Sure she has managed to her credit to live a relatively private life away from paparazzi and nosy fans (hahaha - yes, people like us haha). The thing is, she will generally answer any point-blanc questions journalists ask her straight up, sincerely and honestly. I really do admire Stevie's honesty despite finding her attitude to life to occasionally be self-centred and narcisstic.

Has anyone on these boards ever had the pleasure of meeting Stevie and talking to her? Obviously she does not do Meet and Greets as a rule during her concert tours...

[KarmaContestant]

Totally agree about the ill effects of the drive to "rock." To me that has blighted her solo efforts a lot, starting right back with the detrimental Tom Petty alliance right through most solo albums. Her creativity has been stifled as a result and the magic badly tarnished.

Now, I love her work with Tom, but otherwise agree wholeheartedly. Bella Donna rocks without being 'rocky'. Edge is the hardest tune there, and other songs like Outside The Rain and How Still My Love rock just the right amount without sounding masculine. You're rather critical of the album, but I think many fans consider it the benchmark of what a solo Stevie album should sound like.

For *years* I've dreamed of a Stevie album produced by the likes of Tori Amos or Neko Case - or any other female singer/songwriter who doesn't 'rock' and who understands the importance of bringing that realm of femininity to her music instead of trying to cover it all up with that masculine 'let's rock' crap that she seems to embrace so feverishly.

[secret love]

Now, I love her work with Tom, but otherwise agree wholeheartedly. Bella Donna rocks without being 'rocky'. Edge is the hardest tune there, and other songs like Outside The Rain and How Still My Love rock just the right amount without sounding masculine. You're rather critical of the album, but I think many fans consider it the benchmark of what a solo Stevie album should sound like.

For *years* I've dreamed of a Stevie album produced by the likes of Tori Amos or Neko Case - or any other female singer/songwriter who doesn't 'rock' and who understands the importance of bringing that realm of femininity to her music instead of trying to cover it all up with that masculine 'let's rock' crap that she seems to embrace so feverishly.

Stevie Nicks did well in her most recent effort, In Your Dreams album. Thing is, the highlights of that for me are Lady from the Mountains [I refuse to believe the Bull**** story Stevie spun about the song being inspired by the insipid Twilight books/film series...majority of the song was written during the Tusk-era...20+ years before Twilight was written. So let's call the song what it is puh-lease.] also, Soldier's Angel, You May be the One, My Heart, Annabel Lee. The song Italian Summer is just embarrassing, cringe-worthy and cliched: honestly, the closing vocals are autotuned to the hilt: come on Stevie, you can do better than that. Cheaper Than Free is a stupid, dopey song in its lyric...and Dave Stewart cannot sing very well so that spoils it too: Dave's a guitarist not a singer! Secret Love - overproduced. For What's It's Worth was good.

I think gradually Stevie is realising she doesn't have to do the whole "let's rock" thing and that it is not what her fans like about her anyway. In interviews she regularly says "People ask me what I do, I say I'm a rock n roll star." Something about that doesn't sit well with me: for a start ...I wouldn't really classify the majority of Stevie's songs as rock music and I'd say really, its not something she need aspire to: take Silver Springs for example: a gorgeous ballad. Or Say You Will, a cute catchy feel-good "commercial pop song". Her only true rockers for me, the songs of Stevie's that get me on my feet singing and dancing, are Stand Back (loved the bongo drums arrangement from 2003 DVD), Edge of 17, Gold Dust Woman, Running Through the Garden, maybe Seven Wonders, Sisters of the Moon, Angel, Ghosts are Gone...generally only one song on each album is a rock-out song.

Stevie could learn a lot from her dear friend Vanessa Carlton...she could learn that music is not about fame. Music is about connecting with people. It is not about Stevie. It is about everybody else. And it is about being genuine, telling your story honestly and not fabricating lies or defaming people just because you don't like them (Planets of the Universe comes to mind...even Stevie thought the original version was too harsh on Lindsey).

If Stevie wants me to fork out $20 - $25 (Yes, that is how much music costs in Australia - a hard copy CD...$16 for digital download iTunes...it is a rip off) for her next album, then she needs to realise I don't care for showy guitar riffs and bass lines at the expense of raw and genuine emotion in the vocals...and I don't care if her piano playing isn't as exemplary as C. McVie's.

Really as a fan...a paying customer actually...I think Stevie should pay more attention to what my opinion, and the opinions of many other fans worldwide are regarding the production of her songs. If only she could be as confident in her instrumental abilites as she is in her singing! Or at the very least: follow the classic rule of Keep It Simple Stupid.

[applebucked]

Ooh, I love Neko Case, both solo and her work with the New Pornographers. Would love to see a collab of them.

The first few tracks form In Your Dreams, I liked, but after that it started to drag on for me, honestly, especially those god-knows-how-long songs.

[CADreaming]

I really love SYW. It is the 2nd FM album I bought (Rumours was first). It holds a warm place in my heart because I listened to it as an unbiased, new fan. I didn't know all of the things I know now about their history, the demos, the ifs ands and whys of the reunion. I had no real clue about the DR doc, just a snippet of the "fight" I had seen in a preview. So, my initial response to the album is what I always come back to and I'm glad I have it to hang onto. I felt it was a genius offering from Lindsey & Stevie that showcased their musical maturity in a relative & fresh way. I loved the way the album flowed and only felt ambivalent about a couple of tracks: Come and Silver Girl. But, I never expect to hear an album full of "singles", usually I listen for an album that is solid in concept and flow. And, this album did not disappoint in either. There are still very strong statements in this project and I feel it proved that Fleetwood Mac was still viable as a band and that Stevie & Lindsey together are a pop rock force unparalleled.

[elle]

I really love SYW. It is the 2nd FM album I bought (Rumours was first). It holds a warm place in my heart because I listened to it as an unbiased, new fan. I didn't know all of the things I know now about their history, the demos, the ifs ands and whys of the reunion. I had no real clue about the DR doc, just a snippet of the "fight" I had seen in a preview. So, my initial response to the album is what I always come back to and I'm glad I have it to hang onto. I felt it was a genius offering from Lindsey & Stevie that showcased their musical maturity in a relative & fresh way. I loved the way the album flowed and only felt ambivalent about a couple of tracks: Come and Silver Girl. But, I never expect to hear an album full of "singles", usually I listen for an album that is solid in concept and flow. And, this album did not disappoint in either. There are still very strong statements in this project and I feel it proved that Fleetwood Mac was still viable as a band and that Stevie & Lindsey together are a pop rock force unparalleled.

loved reading this! this actually might be my favorite post that i read from you, ever. very interesting and fresh. shows how different a view can be when one goes into listening to SYW without any preconceived opinions.

[CADreaming]

loved reading this! this actually might be my favorite post that i read from you, ever. very interesting and fresh. shows how different a view can be when one goes into listening to SYW without any preconceived opinions.

Why, thank you, Elle! It's true. I wish so many times I could have those ears again. Because this group is overwhelmingly amazing to me.

[applebucked]

I wish I had those ears when I listened SYW as well. Because when I listened to it, I kept thinking that something is missing. :(

[Desiree]

Many, many comments have been made questioning why Thrown Down and Destiny Rules, to some extent, were not played at the live show (DR just once and it sounded great, would have gotten even better!) or put out and pushed as singles, were they? Anyway, I wonder if the subject matter is the reason? Anyone who has followed FM knows the story. Those two songs tell the story of what happened during The Dance (something, for sure) and the result. The thought of little Will Buckingham...and people talking about how his conception and birth (the barricade) eventually put an end to S&L, about the rumors that S&L were having a hard time letting go and so on. I believe that Thrown Down in particular was just too 'heavy' as Stevie would say. Too telling. AND, a CHILD was involved this time!

And I do wonder sometimes, now that LB's kids are getting older and have access to the Internet, friends whose parents talk without regard to their children hearing, the things Dad and Stevie say...which confuse the hell out of adults much less kids....just all of that...how do his kids integrate all of the info and how do they feel about it all? Especially Will Buckingham...

[Deeshere]

Murrow is all right but just a tad too political...I don't connect with a lyric about the lack of integrity in modern journalism...how can I relate to that? It doesn't make me feel anything. It's just Lindsey having a good old rant...get off that high horse Linds!

Miranda is one of those songs I have to be in a certain mood to really enjoy. Its a kinda kooky crazy song. It just makes me want to be silly and stupid and dance. But sometimes you just play a song too many times you know? And you did like it but now you know it too well, so it's boring? That's Miranda for you.

I kind feel sad for Stevie that she feels the need to have other people produce her songs so extensively. Really her piano demos are works of art in themselves in many cases. I don't care that she doesn't know 100 chords. She can play and she can play well...she needs more confidence in her ability. And I guess she doesn't believe fans would care to see her do anything other than sing.

First of all I think the reason Lindsey wrote songs like Morrow, and Miranda was because he has kids. As a father he's looking at the world as a whole and asking questions (like a lot of parents do) about what is world going to be like for my kids. I see Morrow as Lindsey dipping his toe into the water of politics, he's maybe trying to see if lyrics like those would accepted by the fan's because he and Steve have always said they stay out of politics and usually are none committal on those kinds of questions, but now that he has kids, he can't help but question "What's The World Coming To"

I also think he was including those types of songs on the CD because he's grown as a person, he doesn't just want to write songs about how this girlfriend left him or this other girlfriend did him wrong. He's trying to broaden the subject of his songs and maybe making them more meaning full.

I have heard her say again, and again that she only knows a few cords, and pecks on the piano. I agree I think she's a much better piano player than she gives herself credit for. I don't think there's any lack of confidence in Stevie. Her musical taste is just different than you might like. If Steve wanted her song's to just be piano ballads, they would just be piano ballads. If she wanted to tour with songs of that nature, she could get any professional piano player to play the music while she sings. She just likes a more produced sound on her songs.

Also she likes what Lindsey adds to her songs, she said he adds "sparkle" to her songs. She likes the music the two of them create when they can get along.

[Deeshere]

I really love SYW. I felt it was a genius offering from Lindsey & Stevie that showcased their musical maturity in a relative & fresh way. I loved the way the album flowed and only felt ambivalent about a couple of tracks: Come and Silver Girl. But, I never expect to hear an album full of "singles", usually I listen for an album that is solid in concept and flow. And, this album did not disappoint in either. There are still very strong statements in this project and I feel it proved that Fleetwood Mac was still viable as a band and that Stevie & Lindsey together are a pop rock force unparalleled.

I love SYW too. The reason the CD is disjointed in sound, is because by the time Stevie's solo tour ended and she was able to join the band to record the CD, all of Lindsey's songs were done. He, John and Mick had been recording Lindsey's songs for almost a year before Stevie showed up.

Lindsey didn't even get any song's from Stevie to produce until they were about 8 month's into recording. So when Steve showed up around January 2002 all she had to do on Lindsey's songs, was to record her vocals.

The reason having Stevie's songs earlier mattered, was that if Lindsey knew what Stevie's songs sounded like before he recorded and produced his own songs he most likely would have tried to make the flow of the music/sound between his songs and Stevie's songs more complementary, and the CD would not have sounded like 2 solo works (which is really was) all on 1 CD.

However, since his songs were recorded and produced (they were kinda dark and edgy like a Buckingham solo CD usually is) before Stevie showed up to start to record her song's (I think) he darkened the sound of Stevie's songs somewhat to try and match the sound of his own song's and make the CD more cohesive sounding.

Which if I am not mistaken (and Lindsey eluded to in a few interviews) caused some pretty big arguments between Lindsey and Stevie at the end of making the CD, and I think is one of the reason Stevie has refused to do another Fleetwood Mac CD.

[Deeshere]

I just realized that my last 2 post were kinda contradictory. On one post I say Stevie likes the way Lindsey produces her songs, and on the other post I say they fought about the way Lindsey produced her songs.

Let me clarify what I was saying. Stevie did like the way Lindsey produced her songs until the SYW CD and that is one the the reasons she's not been willing to record a new Fleetwood Mac CD with Lindsey as the producer.

[Desiree]

Stevie Nicks did well in her most recent effort, In Your Dreams album. Thing is, the highlights of that for me are Lady from the Mountains [I refuse to believe the Bull**** story Stevie spun about the song being inspired by the insipid Twilight books/film series...majority of the song was written during the Tusk-era...20+ years before Twilight was written. So let's call the song what it is puh-lease.] also, Soldier's Angel, You May be the One, My Heart, Annabel Lee. The song Italian Summer is just embarrassing, cringe-worthy and cliched: honestly, the closing vocals are autotuned to the hilt: come on Stevie, you can do better than that. Cheaper Than Free is a stupid, dopey song in its lyric...and Dave Stewart cannot sing very well so that spoils it too: Dave's a guitarist not a singer! Secret Love - overproduced. For What's It's Worth was good.

I think gradually Stevie is realising she doesn't have to do the whole "let's rock" thing and that it is not what her fans like about her anyway. In interviews she regularly says "People ask me what I do, I say I'm a rock n roll star." Something about that doesn't sit well with me: for a start ...I wouldn't really classify the majority of Stevie's songs as rock music and I'd say really, its not something she need aspire to: take Silver Springs for example: a gorgeous ballad. Or Say You Will, a cute catchy feel-good "commercial pop song". Her only true rockers for me, the songs of Stevie's that get me on my feet singing and dancing, are Stand Back (loved the bongo drums arrangement from 2003 DVD), Edge of 17, Gold Dust Woman, Running Through the Garden, maybe Seven Wonders, Sisters of the Moon, Angel, Ghosts are Gone...generally only one song on each album is a rock-out song.

Stevie could learn a lot from her dear friend Vanessa Carlton...she could learn that music is not about fame. Music is about connecting with people. It is not about Stevie. It is about everybody else. And it is about being genuine, telling your story honestly and not fabricating lies or defaming people just because you don't like them (Planets of the Universe comes to mind...even Stevie thought the original version was too harsh on Lindsey).

If Stevie wants me to fork out $20 - $25 (Yes, that is how much music costs in Australia - a hard copy CD...$16 for digital download iTunes...it is a rip off) for her next album, then she needs to realise I don't care for showy guitar riffs and bass lines at the expense of raw and genuine emotion in the vocals...and I don't care if her piano playing isn't as exemplary as C. McVie's.

Really as a fan...a paying customer actually...I think Stevie should pay more attention to what my opinion, and the opinions of many other fans worldwide are regarding the production of her songs. If only she could be as confident in her instrumental abilites as she is in her singing! Or at the very least: follow the classic rule of Keep It Simple Stupid.
Quote::
Originally Posted by elle
when i first started listening to LB's and FM lyrics, i just kept thinking - stop!! what a bunch of self-centered & self-important a-holes! look around you, people, there's a whole wide world around you with bunch of problems and you bunch of indulgent rich people keep whining about you love life for 40 years like you are the only ones and that's the most important thing ever?!

Hahahaha, Vivfox! Cracks me up, too, and it is so true, but then really, is anything more important than love, my love relationship is ultra important to me and I think it about it all the time...good or bad!!!!!! I'm with you tho, Viv, I' m looking to be taken away from it all for a while!

[michelej1]

Many, many comments have been made questioning why Thrown Down and Destiny Rules, to some extent, were not played at the live show (DR just once and it sounded great, would have gotten even better!) or put out and pushed as singles, were they? Anyway, I wonder if the subject matter is the reason?

I doubt it since Lindsey had no problem playing his UTS songs in concert, wife and kids in attendance, and those songs dealt with the same subject matter.

Michele

[Desiree]

I doubt it since Lindsey had no problem playing his UTS songs in concert, wife and kids in attendance, and those songs dealt with the same subject matter.

Michele

Guess you're right, no accounting for it, geez....

[StandbackStevie]

I do think Say You Will album is up there as one of there best, I enjoy listening to the whole album love every song.The Say You Will Tour was an awesome Tour.

[Deeshere]

Guess you're right, no accounting for it, geez....

Lindsey's going to say and play anything he wants too. I don't think his family being in the audience would stop that. But I do think you maybe be partially right.

I don't think Lindsey had a problem with either song, but Lindsey has said that during the SYW tour he and Kristen had at least 1 fight that we know about (he alluded to the fact that it was about Stevie) and Thrown Down and Destiny Rules were definitely about Stevie and Lindsey's relationship.

So I do think that Lindsey stopped the band from playing those 2 songs out of respect for Kristen.

[Lindsfan]

Lindsey's going to say and play anything he wants too. I don't think his family being in the audience would stop that. But I do think you maybe be partially right.

I don't think Lindsey had a problem with either song, but Lindsey has said that during the SYW tour he and Kristen had at least 1 fight that we know about (he alluded to the fact that it was about Stevie) and Thrown Down and Destiny Rules were definitely about Stevie and Lindsey's relationship.

So I do think that Lindsey stopped the band from playing those 2 songs out of respect for Kristen.

When did he allude to that? I know he's talked of a fight between him and Kristen, but I don't recall him alluding to it being about Stevie. Please enlighten me.

And I'm late to this discussion, so forgive me if this has been mentioned or whatever, but I always thought - and still believe - that Stevie's SYW songs weren't played (or were pulled) because unlike Lindsey, she's just not comfortable playing new stuff. She likes to stick to what she's sure her fans will like. If they played it once, and the fans didn't go nuts, she didn't want to wait for them to warm up to it. That's just my opinion, it's not based on anything else.

It makes no sense for Kristen to be bothered by two songs out of all his, and Stevie's songs!

[CADreaming]

I love SYW too. The reason the CD is disjointed in sound, is because by the time Stevie's solo tour ended and she was able to join the band to record the CD, all of Lindsey's songs were done. He, John and Mick had been recording Lindsey's songs for almost a year before Stevie showed up.

Lindsey didn't even get any song's from Stevie to produce until they were about 8 month's into recording. So when Steve showed up around January 2002 all she had to do on Lindsey's songs, was to record her vocals.

The reason having Stevie's songs earlier mattered, was that if Lindsey knew what Stevie's songs sounded like before he recorded and produced his own songs he most likely would have tried to make the flow of the music/sound between his songs and Stevie's songs more complementary, and the CD would not have sounded like 2 solo works (which is really was) all on 1 CD.

However, since his songs were recorded and produced (they were kinda dark and edgy like a Buckingham solo CD usually is) before Stevie showed up to start to record her song's (I think) he darkened the sound of Stevie's songs somewhat to try and match the sound of his own song's and make the CD more cohesive sounding.

Which if I am not mistaken (and Lindsey eluded to in a few interviews) caused some pretty big arguments between Lindsey and Stevie at the end of making the CD, and I think is one of the reason Stevie has refused to do another Fleetwood Mac CD.

I disagree.

[redtulip]

When did he allude to that? I know he's talked of a fight between him and Kristen, but I don't recall him alluding to it being about Stevie. Please enlighten me.

And I'm late to this discussion, so forgive me if this has been mentioned or whatever, but I always thought - and still believe - that Stevie's SYW songs weren't played (or were pulled) because unlike Lindsey, she's just not comfortable playing new stuff. She likes to stick to what she's sure her fans will like. If they played it once, and the fans didn't go nuts, she didn't want to wait for them to warm up to it. That's just my opinion, it's not based on anything else.

It makes no sense for Kristen to be bothered by two songs out of all his, and Stevie's songs!

I would be interested to see where he alluded to the fight being about Stevie as well because I've never seen/heard that before, only that there was a fight.

I agree with this. I don't think out of all of Lindsey's songs there would only be a couple she would have problems with if she was bothered by any. If his songs were an issue to her, I think there would be many more. And I think Kristen is secure enough in their relationship and knows the difference between FM Lindsey and the real Lindsey.

And I also get the feeling Stevie isn't comfortable playing new songs live anyway so would probably veto most of them. She was saying in all the press for the tour this year that fans don't want new material so I don't think it would be a stretch to say that she is not comfortable performing the new material because she doesn't think the fans want to hear it.

[CADreaming]

And I also get the feeling Stevie isn't comfortable playing new songs live anyway so would probably veto most of them. She was saying in all the press for the tour this year that fans don't want new material so I don't think it would be a stretch to say that she is not comfortable performing the new material because she doesn't think the fans want to hear it.

I think she's loosening up on this finally. She did about 6 new songs for her IYD tour and that was a big step for her. And, they are doing 2 new songs this tour.

[elle]

I think she's loosening up on this finally. She did about 6 new songs for her IYD tour and that was a big step for her.

and she changing whooping ONE song between her Unleashed tour set and Live 2013 tour set. ;) :laugh:

oh yeah i forgot about adding WY.

[CADreaming]

and she changing whooping ONE song between her Unleashed tour set and Live 2013 tour set. ;) :laugh:

oh yeah i forgot about adding WY.

This is an excellent tour set, regardless.

[elle]

This is an excellent tour set, regardless.

i agree. especially in isolation, if there was no Unleashed. or SYW.

but it could have been so much more interesting.

it's kinda like with Lindsey's OMS set, only worse. OMS set was great and amazing and incredible, but it could have been so much more different and amazing (and with so many more songs :laugh: ).

[CADreaming]

i agree. especially in isolation, if there was no Unleashed. or SYW.

but it could have been so much more interesting.

it's kinda like with Lindsey's OMS set, only worse. OMS set was great and amazing and incredible, but it could have been so much more different and amazing (and with so many more songs :laugh: ).

I know what you're saying but I understand the reasons why they do what they do. Ironically, I felt this tour was far better than Unleashed even though the songs were the same, it seemed to just flow better and they sound awesome. Plus, we did have the two new songs from the EP and they threw in two deep cuts from Tusk AND got the WY intro -- it's epic! :D

[michelej1]

She likes to stick to what she's sure her fans will like. If they played it once, and the fans didn't go nuts, she didn't want to wait for them to warm up to it. That's just my opinion, it's not based on anything else.

It makes no sense for Kristen to be bothered by two songs out of all his, and Stevie's songs!

Yes, I think Destiny Rules was pulled because it received a lackluster response just as DLMDA was pulled for the same reason. When they played was Destiny Rules I thought it dragged myself, except for a new vocal arrangement they did at the very end, which I thought was a pretty nice variation on the album.



Michele

[Deeshere]

I disagree.

I respect your disagreement, but can you tell me why?

[nicole21290]

When did he allude to that? I know he's talked of a fight between him and Kristen, but I don't recall him alluding to it being about Stevie. Please enlighten me.

Yeah, he hasn't come right out and said Cast Away Dreams is about Stevie. However, he talked in his introductions about the argument/fight being about:
- having to give up 'an obsession', to stop 'obsessing about something'
- not knowing when to let something go
- a dream he'd been hanging onto (for too long?)
- that he needed some time alone to mourn and grieve the loss of that dream

The fact that it was written (and the argument occurred) whilst he was on the SYW tour (when his and Stevie's r'ship seemed to run from the very hot to the very cold) and the actual lyrics he wrote seem to indicate it IS about Stevie. To me, at least.

Holy light / Visionary sight
There's been a change in plans
Going away / No, I cannot stay
I hope you'll understand

- here, it's actually the word 'plans' I find most most interesting merely because plans are SO much more concrete and realised than dreams or ideas. But yes, it's obviously not his work/music that he was obsessing about and having to give up. He's addressing a person here and in the rest of the song.

She was so enchanted by his voice / She was so shaken by his words
His plan for her… / Was just not possible

I won't be home tonight / I'll just slip out of sight
Lay down my visionary eyes / Dancing on my cast away dreams
Keep yourself out of sight / Farewell to the wishes that died
Look for me in the morning light / Dancing on my cast away dreams

- Bless. He's trying. As he said, he needs time alone to mourn the loss of his dreams and wishes. Pity in 2013 he STILL seems to be dreaming (at least within lyrics) on a regular basis about a certain someone...

Magic one / All our dreams are done
I have no faith today
Sun will rise / In your newborn eyes
Just let me slip away

- Okay. So, this is the main one for me if the constant mentions of dreams weren't enough... MAGIC ONE. Yeah, who else would he be addressing here?! Like really. That alone really pretty much convinces me this obsession he had to try and give up was Stevie. Also, interesting to see how prevalent the ideas of faith is in both his and Stevie's songs, to be honest. And that he now has faith being a part of his meaning of Say Goodbye.

You've shaken your faith in me, no / You've shaken my faith in everything else
A decision no one makes, and now you're going home
Faith is a hard thing to hold on to / Something inside you says I don't have to

And we were magic.

It would do no good
To drown in the sea
Where no one remembers their name
And nothing but nothing is free

- Really, Lindsey?! I DO so much love their repeated use of ocean/sea imagery, by the way. And the drowning...

Drowning in the sea of love
Where everyone would love to drown

After the music ended / There was nowhere to go but down
Faces of glass all hung in the past / They only come here to drown

Hearts will break
With choices we must make
So sleep and dream of me

- Again, another fascinating section to me. Mostly because it talks of heartS breaking and choices WE must make. Plural usages here. This isn't Lindsey merely making a decision and not being bothered by it. It's not even JUST him making choices here. And even once that choice IS made, he still wishes this 'magic one' to sleep and dream of him.

____

Now on the road we've had many really good talks. We've know each other most of our lives and yet we're still trying to figure out what's going on. Obviously, a lot of love as a subtext. But where is that love? How do we get in touch with any of that? For all of us, the decisions we make now are going to determine how we are as people until we die. Stevie and I are trying to look at it...with care. - Lindsey Buckingham.

"I think I might wander underground
I go to my lover we lay on our bed
Did I sell my heart for the dreams in my head?"

[elle]

After the music ended / There was nowhere to go but down
Faces of glass all hung in the past / They only come here to drown

ending with "can you hear me Annie?" by all accounts if about anybody specific Rodeo would be about Anne Heche.

"I think I might wander underground
I go to my lover we lay on our bed
Did I sell my heart for the dreams in my head?"
"Give us a song but don't live what you sing
Say what you mean but please don't mean a thing

I think I might wander underground
I think I might wander underground

They heard fifteen seconds and that was enough
The idea was new but the business was rough

I think I might wander underground
I think I might wander underground

I go to my lover we lay on our bed
Did I sell my heart for the dreams in my head?

I think I might wander underground"

underground as away from the big business large music labels.

[elle]

Yeah, he hasn't come right out and said Cast Away Dreams is about Stevie. However, he talked in his introductions about the argument/fight being about:
- having to give up 'an obsession', to stop 'obsessing about something'
- not knowing when to let something go
- a dream he'd been hanging onto (for too long?)
- that he needed some time alone to mourn and grieve the loss of that dream

i have Cast Away Dreams interpretation a bit different from most other people... while looking at everything through the lens of a star-crossed love relationship is romantic, what seems to be a constant and most important thing to LB is music, his art and getting it out there through his musical career (remember young SN complaining he'd rather sleep with his guitar than her :laugh:?). repeated use of a word visionary, plans, and everything that you listed in your bullets above to me points towards him finally letting go of any plans to become commercially successful solo artist - we were discussing that in this thread:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=1041481&postcount=5

[Deeshere]

When did he allude to that? I know he's talked of a fight between him and Kristen, but I don't recall him alluding to it being about Stevie. Please enlighten me.



He alluded to it on his his Under the Skin Tour during the Cast Away Dreams Into. He would tell the story of his and his wife's argument New York after the Fleetwood Mac show he says this

" She had left to go back to L.A and I was sitting alone the hotel room thinking about what we talked about and it occurred to me that if you have held onto a dream, a goal, and idea for a long, long time it can be difficult to know when it is appropriate to let go of that and also it occurred to me that when you do finally come to that clarity it can be helpful to be left alone for while to mourn the loss of that idea and also to simultaneously celebrate what might come from having made that change.

Here's the video:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/gsqPyoeq2M0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Desiree]

When did he allude to that? I know he's talked of a fight between him and Kristen, but I don't recall him alluding to it being about Stevie. Please enlighten me.

I've heard about such a fight on another msg board but don't know anything about it as I'm playing catch up.

And I'm late to this discussion, so forgive me if this has been mentioned or whatever, but I always thought - and still believe - that Stevie's SYW songs weren't played (or were pulled) because unlike Lindsey, she's just not comfortable playing new stuff. She likes to stick to what she's sure her fans will like. If they played it once, and the fans didn't go nuts, she didn't want to wait for them to warm up to it. That's just my opinion, it's not based on anything else.

Uhhh...she played at least six (6) new songs off her new IYD's record so , no, that is not the reason. I believe what she said about playing new songs is that you only play 2-3 along with all the hits off a single record?

It makes no sense for Kristen to be bothered by two songs out of all his, and Stevie's songs!

Well, it wouldn't be the only thing that didn't make sense....for example...my mind is boggled by the fact that any woman, girl friend or wife, could EVER in a million years sit thru a concert where said man sings songs of longing, lust, crashed dreams, when they come to get us we'll finally tell the truth...make amends, the stars are crazy, magic one, and on and on it goes about another woman, one who is obviously of extreme importance in his life! I find his songs to be pretty to the point. I mean each line would stab me in the heart, and it makes her, Kristin, look stupid. I really dislike it when women allow that behavior and look the other way...acting, real, half/half doesn't really matter. So go figure...but the baby being alluded to as a barricade...and DR, it's not being together, it's just following the rules...so fatalistic, kinda takes some of the shine off it all...maybe that's why they didn't't play it..I'm sorry...I think I'm rambling. :nod:

[elle]

He alluded to it on his his Under the Skin Tour during the Cast Away Dreams Into. He would tell the story of his and his wife's argument New York after the Fleetwood Mac show he says this

" She had left to go back to L.A and I was sitting alone the hotel room thinking about what we talked about and it occurred to me that if you have held onto a dream, a goal, and idea for a long, long time it can be difficult to know when it is appropriate to let go of that and also it occurred to me that when you do finally come to that clarity it can be helpful to be left alone for while to mourn the loss of that idea and also to simultaneously celebrate what might come from having made that change.

Here's the video:

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsqPyoeq2M0

yes, that doesn't say absolutely anything about SN. clarity, loss of a dream, an idea... doesn't say it's about a person even.

see my post above, plus look at that whole thread i linked to for different interpretations. there are some really good ones there, once a person takes off S+L blinders.

[elle]

I'm sorry...I think I'm rambling. :nod:[/B]

yup! ;)

and also, dumping on a specific person in the process, interpreting things that you don't know are really the case.

[nicole21290]

ending with "can you hear me Annie?" by all accounts if about anybody specific Rodeo would be about Anne Heche.

Yes, I'm aware of that interpretation and, for sure, a lot of it may be about Anne. However, I find THESE (and a few others, to be honest, esp. the last verse) lyrics quite curious in terms of a set of VERY similar lyrics of Stevie's and they, to me, bely quite an interesting 'coincidence'.

We never took quite enough chances
We never had quite enough time
I did about a thousand dances
But nothing would change your mind

Say you will, say you will give me one more chance
At least give me time to change your mind
That always seems to heal the wounds, if I can
Get you to dance

"Give us a song but don't live what you sing
Say what you mean but please don't mean a thing

I think I might wander underground
I think I might wander underground
They heard fifteen seconds and that was enough
The idea was new but the business was rough
I think I might wander underground
I think I might wander underground

I go to my lover we lay on our bed
Did I sell my heart for the dreams in my head?
I think I might wander underground"

underground as away from the big business large music labels.

Yes, mostly. I just find that he probably doesn't JUST use 'underground' as a business related concept. He does more so here but not everywhere. So yes, primarily the underground idea here is related to doing his artistic work thing under the radar, or underground, if you will. I just find the 'did I sell my heart for the dreams in my head?' quite an interesting idea in terms of BOTH the personal and the professional.

You're the queen of the underground
Never leaving a clue

I took a trip out of town / A hundred years underground
And had to swim across the sea / Oh, when you were my baby

Black angel can't be alone
Love runs deeper from the underground

i have Cast Away Dreams interpretation a bit different from most other people... while looking at everything through the lens of a star-crossed love relationship is romantic, what seems to be a constant and most important thing to LB is music, his art and getting it out there through his musical career (remember young SN complaining he'd rather sleep with his guitar than her :laugh:?). repeated use of a word visionary, plans, and everything that you listed in your bullets above to me points towards him finally letting go of any plans to become commercially successful solo artist - we were discussing that in this thread:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=1041481&postcount=5

Mmm, yes, I've read that before. I disagree, for the most part, sorry. I don't think I purposely look at everything through some misplaced romantic ideal but I DO think that it makes FAR more sense seeing this song in terms of the personal and not the professional. Although Lindsey has written plenty of songs about the world in general and the business in specific, I don't think this is one of them. He directly addresses a person in these lyrics and talks about dreams and faith and plans that two people have had that can be no longer.

I would say that yes, his artistic vision and work IS a constant and important thing to him (though not necessarily the most, actually, anymore). I also think it's fair to say from both interviews and songs that STEVIE is a constant and important thing for him too, in terms of an important relationship in his life as well as an inspiration for lyrics. The whole deal with the 'plans' is in reference to having to go away and not being able to stay - he addresses this to another PERSON. His dreams and faith that he's having to put behind him are about another PERSON (Magic One). The choices being made are being made with another PERSON, a person he wants to still dream of him. Why would KRISTEN be getting into some huge argument with him one night on the SYW tour about him not being willing to give up an obsession about being commercially successful in his solo work (which while I'm sure he would have appreciated really didn't and doesn't seem like a dream/obsession to him, to be honest...)? I'm sorry, it doesn't really gel for me. Kristen had to leave so he could be alone and MOURN that? There may be elements of that idea in there but, truthfully, that song makes far more sense to me if that obsession isn't a 'something' but a 'someone'.

[nicole21290]

yes, that doesn't say absolutely anything about SN. clarity, loss of a dream, an idea... doesn't say it's about a person even.

see my post above, plus look at that whole thread i linked to for different interpretations. there are some really good ones there, once a person takes off S+L blinders.

May I just ask, Elle, why is it that one is wearing 'S+L blinders' if they think a large number of Lindsey's songs are about Stevie and vice versa? Certainly, thinking that doesn't mean that one can't acknowledge or interpret songs as being about his wife, other relationships, business and work issues, the world at large, politics, etc. I just happen to think that certain songs of his ARE about her (even after reading alternate interpretations and explanations sometimes) and many recurrent themes, words, images seem to point to that in this song - CAD - and others as well.

Naturally, a song can also be about more than one thing and I don't think it's a stretch to say that he can be talking about both the personal and professional within a song and that the personal element may be about Stevie, a woman he still obviously had and has complicated and deep feelings about and for. I don't think that's me wearing blinders, even if I quite happily admit to being a 'shipper'. Your mileage may vary, of course.

[CADreaming]

Naturally, a song can also be about more than one thing and I don't think it's a stretch to say that he can be talking about both the personal and professional within a song and that the personal element may be about Stevie, a woman he still obviously had and has complicated and deep feelings about and for.

Absolutely. It's all tied together anyway. Of course there is more than one meaning. Both Stevie & Lindsey write like that. After all, Lindsey said they appreciate the double entendre of "EP" - "extended play"...

[nicole21290]

Absolutely. It's all tied together anyway. Of course there is more than one meaning. Both Stevie & Lindsey write like that. After all, Lindsey said they appreciate the double entendre of "EP" - "extended play"...

Quite. We can't have them being boring and having simplistic, literal lyrics all the time. Double-meanings, symbolism and parallels all the way. I mean, taking something like Peacekeer, a fairly overtly political song in many ways:

"I wrote the song about two and a half years ago. It was, in a very ironic way, looking at the kind of thinking that is matter-of-fact and desensitized towards certain actions that go on in the world, and the kind of blankness and conformity that goes along with that. And then trying to look at what that does for a married couple trying to work out their problems. How does it affect them?"

We have both the political and the personal. It's a nice juxtaposition and compare/contrast at times, especially considering certain peoples' interest in power dynamics and the politics of art and how that affects personal relationships.

[CADreaming]

Quite. We can't have them being boring and having simplistic, literal lyrics all the time. Double-meanings, symbolism and parallels all the way. I mean, taking something like Peacekeer, a fairly overtly political song in many ways:

"I wrote the song about two and a half years ago. It was, in a very ironic way, looking at the kind of thinking that is matter-of-fact and desensitized towards certain actions that go on in the world, and the kind of blankness and conformity that goes along with that. And then trying to look at what that does for a married couple trying to work out their problems. How does it affect them?"

We have both the political and the personal. It's a nice juxtaposition and compare/contrast at times, especially considering certain peoples' interest in power dynamics and the politics of art and how that affects personal relationships.

It's funny, I always think of Stevie in regards to that song because she has described herself as the "peacekeeper" so many times.

I think LB threw the political stuff in his explanations later but it could be political on a more personal level instead of global. He did the same thing with "Treason" which I don't believe he even thought of the political aspect until it was suggested due to the timing of current events. The song is obviously about a relationship, not politics.

[nicole21290]

It's funny, I always think of Stevie in regards to that song because she has described herself as the "peacekeeper" so many times.

I think LB threw the political stuff in his explanations later but it could be political on a more personal level instead of global. He did the same thing with "Treason" which I don't believe he even thought of the political aspect until it was suggested due to the timing of current events. The song is obviously about a relationship, not politics.

Ha, yes. When I discovered FM - beyond the family Greatest Hits CD - I basically listened to the entire discography (both group and solo) in chronological order and had had certain songs still in my head when it came time for SYW and Peacekeeper...

High priestess...she's the keeper of the peace in this
Twice as much, intensified

Yes, I think that has been the case at times. Certainly, there are certain very political songs but I think often his explanation of them as being such means that less attention is paid to the more personal elements that also exist within said songs and, whilst his explanation isn't untrue by any means, it doesn't explain *all* the lyrics of the song or all the layers of the song. And it doesn't have to. Would be far less fun to read into and interpret, then. :D And yeah, he's apparently very interested in things like the politics within a band, for example. Which he doesn't mention much AT ALL, cough.

I walk empty halls wondering what is true
Behind the garden walls I search for you
Deep down in the ocean, deep down in the sea
Saw your face full of grace searching for me

Halls, truth, walls, searching, ocean, sea, grace - check, check, check. Yep, definitely some nice imagery and personal elements in that one...

[elle]

Yes, I'm aware of that interpretation and, for sure, a lot of it may be about Anne. However, I find THESE (and a few others, to be honest, esp. the last verse) lyrics quite curious in terms of a set of VERY similar lyrics of Stevie's and they, to me, bely quite an interesting 'coincidence'.

We never took quite enough chances
We never had quite enough time
I did about a thousand dances
But nothing would change your mind

Say you will, say you will give me one more chance
At least give me time to change your mind
That always seems to heal the wounds, if I can
Get you to dance


Yes, mostly. I just find that he probably doesn't JUST use 'underground' as a business related concept. He does more so here but not everywhere. So yes, primarily the underground idea here is related to doing his artistic work thing under the radar, or underground, if you will. I just find the 'did I sell my heart for the dreams in my head?' quite an interesting idea in terms of BOTH the personal and the professional.

You're the queen of the underground
Never leaving a clue

I took a trip out of town / A hundred years underground
And had to swim across the sea / Oh, when you were my baby

Black angel can't be alone
Love runs deeper from the underground

Mmm, yes, I've read that before. I disagree, for the most part, sorry. I don't think I purposely look at everything through some misplaced romantic ideal but I DO think that it makes FAR more sense seeing this song in terms of the personal and not the professional. Although Lindsey has written plenty of songs about the world in general and the business in specific, I don't think this is one of them. He directly addresses a person in these lyrics and talks about dreams and faith and plans that two people have had that can be no longer.

I would say that yes, his artistic vision and work IS a constant and important thing to him (though not necessarily the most, actually, anymore). I also think it's fair to say from both interviews and songs that STEVIE is a constant and important thing for him too, in terms of an important relationship in his life as well as an inspiration for lyrics.
thank you for juxtaposing words of Rodeo and SYW. i read them and sang these songs in my head at the same time... and what immediately jumped out was that there is such a huge difference in the quality of these 2 songs (for me at least :D ), even though Rodeo is often dismissed as one of Lindsey's more commercial sounding songs.

i don't want to dump on him but i do think that for the longest time being commercially successful or at least being as commercially successful as Stevie ("it was all for you" ;) ) was an obsession for him.

and while i agree that in my interpretations i provide just one dimension / version / explanation, i go that way mostly because there's no need to go into SnL explanation. tons of other people already go there at every opportunity - and they see ONLY that dimension. that's why i loved reading your other posts below (and CAD's), because i agree that most Lindsey's songs are very multi-dimensional, and about many different things. like many songwriters write in fact, including Stevie from what i know - her song that she says is about Mick, or Lindsey, or whoever or whatever, maybe actually spliced of components of several different poems, each about something different. especially if Lindsey had something to do with producing that particular song lol.

May I just ask, Elle, why is it that one is wearing 'S+L blinders' if they think a large number of Lindsey's songs are about Stevie and vice versa? Certainly, thinking that doesn't mean that one can't acknowledge or interpret songs as being about his wife, other relationships, business and work issues, the world at large, politics, etc. I just happen to think that certain songs of his ARE about her (even after reading alternate interpretations and explanations sometimes) and many recurrent themes, words, images seem to point to that in this song - CAD - and others as well.

Naturally, a song can also be about more than one thing and I don't think it's a stretch to say that he can be talking about both the personal and professional within a song and that the personal element may be about Stevie, a woman he still obviously had and has complicated and deep feelings about and for. I don't think that's me wearing blinders, even if I quite happily admit to being a 'shipper'. Your mileage may vary, of course.
i agree with much of what you wrote, and especially parts i highlighted. while many of his songs may have a very simplistic lyrics and be about one thing (WMYTYTO?), many are also very multidimensional - as we both seem to agree.
i also think that LB sometimes just throws words in that he likes, or that sound good to him, or that are just swirling in his head for no particular reason (like because SN uses them so much and they sound good or mysterious? :p). remember, some of Love Runs Deeper words that you quoted came from KB (and are some of his most pedestrian and bland lyrics imo - :sorry: KB!).

Absolutely. It's all tied together anyway. Of course there is more than one meaning. Both Stevie & Lindsey write like that. After all, Lindsey said they appreciate the double entendre of "EP" - "extended play"...
and not just that lol - gift of screws if nothing else comes to mind. he loves loves loves double entendre... and almost every time one of the meanings has to be very dirty / sexual :laugh:. nobody thinks GOS is only about art and squeezing creative juices! (to the left to the right up and down and around... with some sex noises added into it. hmmm. yes. Emily Dickenson inspired art only.).

Quite. We can't have them being boring and having simplistic, literal lyrics all the time. Double-meanings, symbolism and parallels all the way.
completely agree.

Yes, I think that has been the case at times. Certainly, there are certain very political songs but I think often his explanation of them as being such means that less attention is paid to the more personal elements that also exist within said songs and, whilst his explanation isn't untrue by any means, it doesn't explain *all* the lyrics of the song or all the layers of the song. And it doesn't have to. Would be far less fun to read into and interpret, then. :D And yeah, he's apparently very interested in things like the politics within a band, for example. Which he doesn't mention much AT ALL, cough.

I walk empty halls wondering what is true
Behind the garden walls I search for you
Deep down in the ocean, deep down in the sea
Saw your face full of grace searching for me

Halls, truth, walls, searching, ocean, sea, grace - check, check, check. Yep, definitely some nice imagery and personal elements in that one...
yes - but the words he repeats and loves to use - do they really have to be about one thing or person? as you said above, many of these songs have great lyrics with many different meanings.

i'm actually surprised you didn't bring up SWS and EAP, but maybe that one's too obvious.

U2's MLK? wasn't the song originally supposed to be about someone nasty, like Hitler? but as the song developed Bono did a complete 180, and while he may have kept some of the lyrics, song ended up going into completely different direction. i think while this is very drastic example, many songs may start inspired by one thing, and have many twists and turns till they become a complete song.

especially with LB, remember he would tear down the sentence into words and give people around him to construct sentences around each word? maybe there are some words he just starts from or throws in when he's lazy? ;)

[CADreaming]

i also think that LB sometimes just throws words in that he likes, or that sound good to him, or that are just swirling in his head for no particular reason (like because SN uses them so much and they sound good or mysterious? :p).

I love the fact you think he has actually learned something from Stevie. :laugh:

remember, some of Love Runs Deeper words that you quoted came from KB (and are some of his most pedestrian and bland lyrics imo - :sorry: KB!).

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


and not just that lol - gift of screws if nothing else comes to mind. he loves loves loves double entendre... and almost every time one of the meanings has to be very dirty / sexual :laugh:. nobody thinks GOS is only about art and squeezing creative juices! (to the left to the right up and down and around... with some sex noises added into it. hmmm. yes. Emily Dickenson inspired art only.).

I always thought he was um, sticking it to the record company... on one side of the double meaning there, at least.

[elle]

I love the fact you think he has actually learned something from Stevie. :laugh:
:lol: oh noooooooo ;)
I always thought he was um, sticking it to the record company... on one side of the double meaning there, at least.
there you go! yes another meaning. (although i'm sure if we discuss long enough, somebody will for sure come up withe conclusion that this song is exclusively about SN ;):p. )

talking about his obsessions... Surrender the Rain comes to mind pretty fast:
I've got to stop this obsession of revenge and fear
I've been running from everything I once held dear
And it feels so cold; it feels like sin
I've got to stop this obsession and start living again

some intepretations of STR lyrics here:
http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/interpretations/s/surrendertherain.htm

[Lindsfan]

He alluded to it on his his Under the Skin Tour during the Cast Away Dreams Into. He would tell the story of his and his wife's argument New York after the Fleetwood Mac show he says this

"She had left to go back to L.A and I was sitting alone the hotel room thinking about what we talked about and it occurred to me that if you have held onto a dream, a goal, and idea for a long, long time it can be difficult to know when it is appropriate to let go of that and also it occurred to me that when you do finally come to that clarity it can be helpful to be left alone for while to mourn the loss of that idea and also to simultaneously celebrate what might come from having made that change".

Here's the video:

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsqPyoeq2M0

Thanks for the link, but as I said...I know the speech very well. And even as I read your transcript of it, I see nothing in it alluding to Stevie. It's just your interpretation of his words.


i have Cast Away Dreams interpretation a bit different from most other people... while looking at everything through the lens of a star-crossed love relationship is romantic, what seems to be a constant and most important thing to LB is music, his art and getting it out there through his musical career (remember young SN complaining he'd rather sleep with his guitar than her :laugh:?). repeated use of a word visionary, plans, and everything that you listed in your bullets above to me points towards him finally letting go of any plans to become commercially successful solo artist - we were discussing that in this thread:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=1041481&postcount=5


^^ THAT is what I think he meant. That would be my interpretation.

Well, it wouldn't be the only thing that didn't make sense....for example...my mind is boggled by the fact that any woman, girl friend or wife, could EVER in a million years sit thru a concert where said man sings songs of longing, lust, crashed dreams, when they come to get us we'll finally tell the truth...make amends, the stars are crazy, magic one, and on and on it goes about another woman, one who is obviously of extreme importance in his life! I find his songs to be pretty to the point. I mean each line would stab me in the heart, and it makes her, Kristin, look stupid. I really dislike it when women allow that behavior and look the other way...acting, real, half/half doesn't really matter. So go figure...but the baby being alluded to as a barricade...and DR, it's not being together, it's just following the rules...so fatalistic, kinda takes some of the shine off it all...maybe that's why they didn't't play it..I'm sorry...I think I'm rambling. :nod:

Well, I guess Kristen must just be more secure in herself and her husband than you are. Not everyone looks for drama in their lives ;)


Kristen is stupid?? That is extremely presumptuous!! You don't know any of these people!! She's stupid, and yet she's got a successful business of her own, is married to a man that may other women on this earth would LOVE to be married to, has three happy, beautiful kids...and we're here on a chat forum :p LOL!! :sorry: but really?? We should all be so stupid.

yes, that doesn't say absolutely anything about SN. clarity, loss of a dream, an idea... doesn't say it's about a person even.

see my post above, plus look at that whole thread i linked to for different interpretations. there are some really good ones there, once a person takes off S+L blinders.

Yep :nod: Obviously Lindsey and Stevie have a complicated relationship, blah blah blah, but that hardly means every word written by either one is about the other. As you stated elsewhere, some of their songs have multiple, or purposely ambiguous meanings. Others, not so much.

[elle]

Yes, I'm aware of that interpretation and, for sure, a lot of it may be about Anne. However, I find THESE (and a few others, to be honest, esp. the last verse) lyrics quite curious in terms of a set of VERY similar lyrics of Stevie's and they, to me, bely quite an interesting 'coincidence'.

We never took quite enough chances
We never had quite enough time
I did about a thousand dances
But nothing would change your mind

Say you will, say you will give me one more chance
At least give me time to change your mind
That always seems to heal the wounds, if I can
Get you to dance

hey something else just occurred to me - Rodeo is several years older than SYW. so if what you are saying is the case, SN ripped him off! :laugh: ;)

although i frankly think that pointing similarity of wording in these 2 songs is way over-interpreting it (and is very different from repeated use of words like underground, rooms falling, EAP, fire, and others you pointed out).

we should go back to interpreting Lindsey's lyrics in those old threads now that people like you who have some interesting things to say while not being close-minded are here! or talk about Sad Angel, Miss Fantasy, It Takes Time... which are written to SN, as LB has said too, but not necessarily about romantic couple-ship, especially Sad Angel being a complete call to arms on the work front. :nod:

[CADreaming]

or talk about Sad Angel, Miss Fantasy, It Takes Time... which are written to SN, as LB has said too, but not necessarily about romantic couple-ship, especially Sad Angel being a complete call to arms on the work front. :nod:

Yeah. I call all my coworkers "Angel" and "Baby" too. :laugh:;)

[elle]

Yeah. I call all my coworkers "Angel" and "Baby" too. :laugh:;)

you slept with your coworkers? ;)

didn't he always call her angel?

[CADreaming]

you slept with your coworkers? ;)

didn't he always call her angel?

:laugh: Uh, in a word - no. But nor would I still be referring to anyone with endearments if it had been over for "35 years"...

I have no idea - CAH said he called her angel so I'm sure it was recycled.

[michelej1]

Yeah. I call all my coworkers "Angel" and "Baby" too. :laugh:;)

Well, in a song you have to. Darling, baby, angel are just there because how are you going to slip "Buck" into a lyric smoothly? What even rhymes with it?:laugh:

I would be more interested in what they still call each other in real life, aside from Stevie, Lindsey and Linds. In real conversation those "honeys" mean a lot, but no so much in a song.

Michele

[CADreaming]

Well, in a song you have to. Darling, baby, angel are just there because how are you going to slip "Buck" into a lyric smoothly? What even rhymes with it?:laugh:

I would be more interested in what they still call each other in real life, aside from Stevie, Lindsey and Linds. In real conversation those "honeys" mean a lot, but no so much in a song.

Michele

They do and they don't, but yeah I loved it at the NO show when the bug flew in her mouth and when she came back onstage & said she would try to get through and if not "Lindsey will be singing lead on this next song...you can do it, honey!" :laugh:

[elle]

you can do it, honey!" :laugh:
i mostly dislike it or just take it as a part of the local folklore, but in some parts of the country all cashiers and shop clerks call every customer honey.

[elle]

Well, in a song you have to. Darling, baby, angel are just there because how are you going to slip "Buck" into a lyric smoothly? What even rhymes with it?:laugh:

I would be more interested in what they still call each other in real life, aside from Stevie, Lindsey and Linds. In real conversation those "honeys" mean a lot, but no so much in a song.

Michele

:laugh: :laugh: Michele!

[CADreaming]

i mostly dislike it or just take it as a part of the local folklore, but in some parts of the country all cashiers and shop clerks call every customer honey.

:laugh: first it was because they slept together and now it's because it's regional?? :laugh: smh

Ok, honey. ;)

[elle]

:laugh: first it was because they slept together and now it's because it's regional?? :laugh: smh

Ok, honey. ;)

lolol. you are from the South right?

first we talked about the poetic license, second we talked about throwing names across the stage. you know, we have multidimensional conversations, even though some people always end up in the same place regardless of where they start. ;)

[CADreaming]

lolol. you are from the South right?

first we talked about the poetic license, second we talked about throwing names across the stage. you know, we have multidimensional conversations, even though some people always end up in the same place regardless of where they start. ;)

Hahaha. Well it is "all the same, all the same, baby" :D

And, yes, I am from the South.

[Deeshere]

yes, that doesn't say absolutely anything about SN. clarity, loss of a dream, an idea... doesn't say it's about a person even.

see my post above, plus look at that whole thread i linked to for different interpretations. there are some really good ones there, once a person takes off S+L blinders.

I think your interpretation is great and very insightful. However, I do still think I am correct in saying the song is about Stevie.

Here's a 2007 interview with Doug Fox where Lindsey explains what Cast Away Dreams is about.

" I guess the imagery was really just about the idea of someone who is trying to do the right thing - this is not what I did - but it was sort of imagining being in the position of someone who's wanting to make the right choice, who's wanting to prioritize properly and in order to do that, they're feeling like they pretty much have to give up their MUSE."

http://<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/pHljzrKpwQI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You take this interview, add it to the story he told over and over again during the Under the Skin Tour, add the song's lyrics saying "magic one all our dreams are done", as well as "so, sleep and dream of me" and I don't see how you can come up with any other explanation except, Lindsey and Kristen were fighting about Lindsey and Stevie's relationship and Lindsey decided (in 2003) that he needed to let his dreams, ideas, goals with Stevie go for the good of his family. I know it's not a popular idea on this board, but to me it appears it is valid. Or should I say possibly valid.

[CADreaming]

I think your interpretation is great and very insightful. However, I do still think I am correct in saying the song is about Stevie.

Here's a 2007 interview with Doug Fox where Lindsey explains what Cast Away Dreams is about.

" I guess the imagery was really just about the idea of someone who is trying to do the right thing - this is not what I did - but it was sort of imagining being in the position of someone who's wanting to make the right choice, who's wanting to prioritize properly and in order to do that, they're feeling like they pretty much have to give up their MUSE."

You take this interview, add it to the story he told over and over again during the Under the Skin Tour, add the song's lyrics saying "magic one all our dreams are done", as well as "so, sleep and dream of me" and I don't see how you can come up with any other explanation except, Lindsey and Kristen were fighting about Lindsey and Stevie's relationship and Lindsey decided (in 2003) that he needed to let his dreams, ideas, goals with Stevie go for the good of his family. I know it's not a popular idea on this board, but to me it appears it is valid.

I have no real opinion or interpretation of this song. But, if it is about Stevie - he said whatever it was he did not do the right thing. So, your conclusion would be incorrect that he let "his dreams, ideas, goals with Stevie go for the good of his family" based on his statement.

[Deeshere]

I have no real opinion or interpretation of this song. But, if it is about Stevie - he said whatever it was he did not do the right thing. So, your conclusion would be incorrect that he let "his dreams, ideas, goals with Stevie go for the good of his family" based on his statement.

No, what he said was that they were TRYING to do the right thing and make the right choice.

[Lindsfan]

Okay, I always felt this song was about Kristen. That he's talking to Kristen. And I still do. But this part was always what tripped me up:

Magic one all our dreams are done I
have no faith today
Sun will rise in your newborn eyes just
let me slip away
I won't be home tonight I'll just slip out
of sight

WHO is Magic one? The way it's written, it's the same person that has newborn eyes, right? Unless he's mixing his tenses ;)

So either he's talking to Will, or he's doing something we know, based on Destiny Rules doc., that he would never do.

Or...maybe he just likes the sound of Magic One. I don't know if Bob Dylan would approve, or not, but what does Lindsey care? He does what he wants to do.

But maybe it's not that deep. Obviously he was arguing with Kristen about something. Something that happened around the time of Will's birth. So, I think Magic One is his weed pipe. The argument was about his smoking. She wanted him to give it up, and so he decided to cast it away into the waste basket. But not before slipping out of sight for one last toke.

[elle]

Okay, I always felt this song was about Kristen. That he's talking to Kristen. And I still do. But this part was always what tripped me up:

Magic one all our dreams are done I
have no faith today
Sun will rise in your newborn eyes just
let me slip away
I won't be home tonight I'll just slip out
of sight

WHO is Magic one? The way it's written, it's the same person that has newborn eyes, right? Unless he's mixing his tenses ;)

So either he's talking to Will, or he's doing something we know, based on Destiny Rules doc., that he would never do.

Or...maybe he just likes the sound of Magic One. I don't know if Bob Dylan would approve, or not, but what does Lindsey care? He does what he wants to do.

But maybe it's not that deep. Obviously he was arguing with Kristen about something. Something that happened around the time of Will's birth. So, I think Magic One is his weed pipe. The argument was about his smoking. She wanted him to give it up, and so he decided to cast it away into the waste basket. But not before slipping out of sight for one last toke.
wait wasn't CAD written during SYW tour? that would be the time of his youngest child birth (not that it matters).

in what other songs does he mention "magic one"? in relation to?

when i re-read the lyrics and listened to that interview clip that Deeshere posted i started thinking the same thing - he says in all these interviews and intros he was having fight with and then talking to Kristen the next morning after he played her the song that he wrote for her, so why are we taking his words as he's talking to someone else? isn't she the one he has a home with? and isn't she the one who had a newborn baby, at that very home at that time? that he will not come back to that night, but he will be back after he finishes mourning his cast away dreams?

(i don't think a person he's talking to is a newborn / has newborn eyes, i think person he's talking to is looking in the eyes of their newborn.)

lolol - love it Lindsfan! that must be it!! magic one is his weed pipe, taking him to magical places, while neglecting his home life. :p :D

[Lindsfan]

wait wasn't CAD written during SYW tour? that would be the time of his youngest child birth (not that it matters).

in what other songs does he mention "magic one"? in relation to?

when i re-read the lyrics and listened to that interview clip that Deeshere posted i started thinking the same thing - he says in all these interviews and intros he was having fight with and then talking to Kristen the next morning after he played her the song that he wrote for her, so why are we taking his words as he's talking to someone else? isn't she the one he has a home with? and isn't she the one who had a newborn baby, at that very home at that time? that he will not come back to that night, but he will be back after he finishes mourning his cast away dreams?

(i don't think a person he's talking to is a newborn / has newborn eyes, i think person he's talking to is looking in the eyes of their newborn.)

lolol - love it Lindsfan! that must be it!! magic one is his weed pipe, taking him to magical places, while neglecting his home life. :p :D

See, YOU get it. I knew you'd understand.

So it should be "In your newborn's eyes"? ...but it's just beautiful the way it's written.

[elle]

No, what he said was that they were TRYING to do the right thing and make the right choice.

considering this is interview and words may not come out exactly as one wants them, i think what he was saying was that:
a) he became a much better lyricist and not as literal as he used to be, and he mentioned CAD as an example of his more mature lyrics.
b) "this is not what I did" could be taken as, these lyrics as written are not necessarily literally about me.

[elle]

See, YOU get it. I knew you'd understand.

So it should be "In your newborn's eyes"? ...but it's just beautiful the way it's written.

i'm not sure, i didn't look at the lyrics on the CD sleeve, i just looked at one of those free online lyric sites and those don't always have it right. so i just assumed it was written wrong.

i don't know, i always took it as telling the person as they were looking in the eyes of their newborn... but you know english is not my first language so i may be wrong.

[Lindsfan]

i'm not sure, i didn't look at the lyrics on the CD sleeve, i just looked at one of those free online lyric sites and those don't always have it right. so i just assumed it was written wrong.

i don't know, i always took it as telling the person as they were looking in the eyes of their newborn... but you know english is not my first language so i may be wrong.

I was just pointing out that his tense would still be wrong. But that's the poet that he is.

[Deeshere]

Okay, I always felt this song was about Kristen. That he's talking to Kristen. And I still do. But this part was always what tripped me up:

Magic one all our dreams are done I
have no faith today
Sun will rise in your newborn eyes just
let me slip away
I won't be home tonight I'll just slip out
of sight

WHO is Magic one? The way it's written, it's the same person that has newborn eyes, right? Unless he's mixing his tenses ;)

So either he's talking to Will, or he's doing something we know, based on Destiny Rules doc., that he would never do.

Or...maybe he just likes the sound of Magic One. I don't know if Bob Dylan would approve, or not, but what does Lindsey care? He does what he wants to do.

But maybe it's not that deep. Obviously he was arguing with Kristen about something. Something that happened around the time of Will's birth. So, I think Magic One is his weed pipe. The argument was about his smoking. She wanted him to give it up, and so he decided to cast it away into the waste basket. But not before slipping out of sight for one last toke.


Going with my theory that the song is about Stevie an not Kristen..magic one would be Stevie as Stevie has always been associated with magic, spirits, fairies etc... New born eyes would be his description of how Stevie sees Lindsey now that he's married has kids and has moved on with his life with his family...her eyes are now open to his new life.

If the song is about Kristen why would he tell her to "''keep yourself out of sight" he's telling Stevie to stay away and let him be happy with his family and dance on his cast away dreams...but he doesn't want her to completely go away because he tells her to sleep and dream of him...if he was talking about weed he would not tell it to dream about him...because as you know that's not possible.

[CADreaming]

So, I think Magic One is his weed pipe. The argument was about his smoking. She wanted him to give it up, and so he decided to cast it away into the waste basket. But not before slipping out of sight for one last toke.

:laugh::laugh: I'm sorry. That's just funny to me. I've heard this interpretation before but I can't see it at all.

[Deeshere]

he says in all these interviews and intros he was having fight with and then talking to Kristen the next morning after he played her the song that he wrote for her, so why are we taking his words as he's talking to someone else? 0

He never said in any interviews or intro's that I have seen that he talked to Kristen the next morning and played her the song that he wrote for her.

Everytime I have heard him talk about the argument he and Kristen had, he said that Kristen went back to L.A after the argument, and he stayed in the hotel room alone and ended up writing Cast Away Dreams.

[Lindsfan]

:laugh::laugh: I'm sorry. That's just funny to me. I've heard this interpretation before but I can't see it at all.

:D

Actually, I'm a little bummed. I thought I was the first to come up with that theory :(

[redtulip]

I think when he says "keep yourself out of sight" he is talking about himself. Taking some time to himself to say goodbye to his castaway dreams. And maybe newborn is more like "new born" eye. Not a baby, but his new outlook once he has cast aside his dreams?

Regardless, I think the song is written for Kristen and not Stevie, since Lindsey has flat out said this. There may be Stevie in the song, but I think he's writing it to Kristen about their fight and what ever he agreed to give up (dreams of solo fame, Stevie, pot, maybe a combo of all three). But since he has come out and said he wrote the song after a fight with Kristen, I don't see how it could be written to Stevie.

[Lindsfan]

He never said in any interviews or intro's that I have seen that he talked to Kristen the next morning and played her the song that he wrote for her.

Everytime I have heard him talk about the argument he and Kristen had, he said that Kristen went back to L.A after the argument, and he stayed in the hotel room alone and ended up writing Cast Away Dreams.



I have no idea re. the first part. I don't care enough to dig that deeply into it. It sounds right, but I honestly don't recall. However, I do recall him saying that she went back to L.A., while he stayed in his hotel. If she did, they can still talk. They have phones for that. I'm sure he could play her a song over the phone too.

[CADreaming]

:D

Actually, I'm a little bummed. I thought I was the first to come up with that theory :(

:sorry: Maybe I read your interpretation before?

I think it's highly creative and entertaining though!

[Lindsfan]

:sorry: Maybe I read your interpretation before?

I think it's highly creative and entertaining though!

Aww, thanks :)

[redtulip]

He never said in any interviews or intro's that I have seen that he talked to Kristen the next morning and played her the song that he wrote for her.

Everytime I have heard him talk about the argument he and Kristen had, he said that Kristen went back to L.A after the argument, and he stayed in the hotel room alone and ended up writing Cast Away Dreams.

Why would he write a song for Stevie and play it for Kristen after a fight? That seems like it would just start a new fight. The way Lindsey describes calling Kristen the next day and playing her the song, I can't only take from that that the song is written for Kristen and not Stevie. There may be elements of Stevie in it, but it is largely about something that happened between Lindsey and Kristen based on everything Lindsey has ever said about the song.

[Lindsfan]

Why would he write a song for Stevie and play it for Kristen after a fight? That seems like it would just start a new fight. The way Lindsey describes calling Kristen the next day and playing her the song, I can't only take from that that the song is written for Kristen and not Stevie. There may be elements of Stevie in it, but it is largely about something that happened between Lindsey and Kristen based on everything Lindsey has ever said about the song.

Exactly!!

And I just watched his description again, just now, on Bass Hall. He describes it as "...holding on to a dream, an idea, a goal."

His whole demeanor, as well as his words clearly sound like it's more career related. Maybe that dream was BN, or maybe it was a different kind of solo career...or both :shrug:

[Deeshere]

I have no idea re. the first part. I don't care enough to dig that deeply into it. It sounds right, but I honestly don't recall. However, I do recall him saying that she went back to L.A., while he stayed in his hotel. If she did, they can still talk. They have phones for that. I'm sure he could play her a song over the phone too.

Honestly, I am not trying to upset anyone. I admit I am kind of a research alcoholic, but all I really was trying to do was present another side to the discussion, so maybe you could think about it.

I hope I did not offend you or elle questioning the song's meaning.

[CADreaming]

Honestly, I am not trying to upset anyone. I admit I am kind of a research alcoholic, but all I really was trying to do was present another side to the discussion, so maybe you could think about it.

I hope I did not offend you or elle questioning the song's meaning.

You're entitled to your opinion and interpretation. Everybody gets offended here sooner or later. :laugh:

[Deeshere]

You're entitled to your opinion and interpretation. Everybody gets offended here sooner or later. :laugh:

Thanks. I don't think truer words have ever been spoken..Err..I mean written. :xoxo:

[elle]

Honestly, I am not trying to upset anyone. I admit I am kind of a research alcoholic, but all I really was trying to do was present another side to the discussion, so maybe you could think about it.

I hope I did not offend you or elle questioning the song's meaning.

why would that offend us? you are adding to the discussion, providing your opinion. :nod:

it would be boring if everybody had the same opinion, and it just shows how interesting lyrics are if everyone draws different conclusions from them.

plus, we are discussing a meaning of LB's solo song in a Rumours forum thread discussing the album that had a lot of LB's solo material on it, but that song was not a part of that solo material predating SYW! i for one am happy about that!! :thumbsup: :nod: :cool:


about being offended by someone constructively contributing to a discussion, it goes both ways. in my experience (being thrown out of various BN boards and blocked by various shippers on twitter :laugh: ), it seems that at least a good number of shippers are way too easily offended if someone states any opinion that doesn't agree with their theories and speculations. :shrug:


going back to Cast Away Dreams, who knows, people who think it's about ending Stevie/Lindsey affair may be right... but i think the problem with that interpretation is that it's based on the premise that they actually HAD an affair during SYW tour. if they didn't - well, it's a house of cards.

my interpretation is built primarily on Bass Hall / Not Too Late doc. that whole doc is going in circles around his solo career options and choices. many songs on UTS are about that too - think Not Too Late as the most blatant example. so to me the interpretation i talked about was just a complete non-brainer, something that logically flowed from Bass Hall / Not Too Late doc. but that may not be the only interpretation and i don't think it is, otherwise LB wouldn't make a point n that interview you quoted about how his lyrics are not as literal as they used to be by citing example of that song. and, you never know, Lindsfan may be closer to the truth than we think with that weed interpretation :lol: :p.

[Deeshere]

why would that offend us? you are adding to the discussion, providing your opinion. :nod:

it would be boring if everybody had the same opinion, and it just shows how interesting lyrics are if everyone draws different conclusions from them.

plus, we are discussing a meaning of LB's solo song in a Rumours forum thread discussing the album that had a lot of LB's solo material on it, but that song was not a part of that solo material predating SYW! i for one am happy about that!! :thumbsup: :nod: :cool:


about being offended by someone constructively contributing to a discussion, it goes both ways. in my experience (being thrown out of various BN boards and blocked by various shippers on twitter :laugh: ), it seems that at least a good number of shippers are way too easily offended if someone states any opinion that doesn't agree with their theories and speculations. :shrug:


going back to Cast Away Dreams, who knows, people who think it's about ending Stevie/Lindsey affair may be right... but i think the problem with that interpretation is that it's based on the premise that they actually HAD an affair during SYW tour. if they didn't - well, it's a house of cards.

my interpretation is built primarily on Bass Hall / Not Too Late doc. that whole doc is going in circles around his solo career options and choices. many songs on UTS are about that too - think Not Too Late as the most blatant example. so to me the interpretation i talked about was just a complete non-brainer, something that logically flowed from Bass Hall / Not Too Late doc. but that may not be the only interpretation and i don't think it is, otherwise LB wouldn't make a point n that interview you quoted about how his lyrics are not as literal as they used to be by citing example of that song. and, you never know, Lindsfan may be closer to the truth than we think with that weed interpretation :lol: :p.


Glad to know I did not offend you, I felt like I might have been stepping on your toes (so to speak) and wanted to let you know that was not my intention ... Honestly I do try not to offend...because I am a pretty peace loving person and don't like to waste my time arguing ( will argue a point if I think it's important, but usually I would like to have a regular discussion). I get that you are a genuine fan of Lindsey' s (just so you know, I am too) and I hope he knows how lucky he is to have you..

[Desiree]

I get that you are a genuine fan of Lindsey' s (just so you know, I am too) and I hope he knows how lucky he is to have you..

Elle, we've talked LB too and I agree with Deeshere, he's very lucky to have you. He is still growing on me, btw and I am completely obsessed with some of the amazing music on his solo output after OOTC (only solo besides Trouble that I'd ever heard up until a couple months ago...I know, I can't believe it either! I thought Trouble was ok, love that track and a couple others. OOTC, I've always believed to be outstanding.

I do take exception with your shipper line tho because not everyone who sees something more or unrequited between S&L is a shipper, just don't like name calling and labels. I do understand that apparently your opinions and thoughts were not respected by some on other sites...boy, FB gave me a time at first, what a learning experience, and very recent at that! Tell you what, if anyone disses you around me, they'll get it back! I too love all of the different opinions and takes...never even thought about your take on interpreting LB's songs, very interesting!!:nod:

[iamnotafraid]

I am completely obsessed with some of the amazing music on his solo output after OOTC (only solo besides Trouble that I'd ever heard up until a couple months ago...:nod:


A couple of months ago..?

[Desiree]

A couple of months ago..?

Maybe three...hard to believe, huh? Been a fan of FM from way back. He really turned me off with his attitude from around the Rumours record and tour...such a diva, bitching all the time and acting crazy, out of control, mean...I saw them three times in a row for that tour and he was a real jerk on stage every time! Even being gorgeous wasn't enough although it was hard to take your eyes off them...I admit it drove the show, she was all vulnerable, then she'd fire back! He always seemed so angry and sullen. Much better these days although he's still uptight as hell seeming!:shrug:

[iamnotafraid]

He really turned me off with his attitude from around the Rumours record and tour...such a diva, bitching all the time and acting crazy, out of control, mean...I saw them three times in a row for that tour and he was a real jerk on stage every time!

I thought maybe it was due to your
age. But if you saw them on the Rumours
Tour - I guess not.

I think Lindsey has a bit of the Jekyll and Hyde
syndrome.

[Deeshere]

[COLOR="Indigo"] He is still growing on me, btw and I am completely obsessed with some of the amazing music on his solo output after OOTC.

I do understand that apparently your opinions and thoughts were not respected by some on other sites...boy, FB gave me a time at first, what a learning experience, and very recent at that!


Well Desiree not everyone is a Lindsey fan right away and some may never become his fan. However, I hope he continues to grow on you, because I love him (I don't mean love, love, but love his music and even his quirky personality. He's very funny) and I also (just to clarify) love Stevie too.

I'm sorry you too got bullied by fans that did not share your opinions. I guess I can see back in the day with Stevie and Lindsey fighting, if you were a fan of either Stevie or Lindsey you felt like you had to take their side and argue their points for them, but now why bother? Neither is dissing the other and like Lindsey said it's a love fest up on stage.

[Desiree]

I thought maybe it was due to your
age. But if you saw them on the Rumours
Tour - I guess not.

I don't follow, why my age? I'm 56 and much less judgmental than I was at 20! Remember this is 36 years ago and my memory sucks but I do remember how mean he was to Stevie on stage all three shows. She looked so afraid of him at times! He seemed to just snarl at her and then he would give her one of those OMG looks, that probably terrified her even more than the mean ones! "When he was loving, I was in tears, he knows my fears..."

I think Lindsey has a bit of the Jekyll and Hyde
syndrome.

Me, too! Seems to have it a little more balanced these days tho...

[Deeshere]

He really turned me off with his attitude from around the Rumours record and tour...such a diva, bitching all the time and acting crazy, out of control, mean...I saw them three times in a row for that tour and he was a real jerk on stage every time! ...I admit it drove the show, she was all vulnerable, then she'd fire back! He always seemed so angry and sullen. Much better these days although he's still uptight as hell seeming!:shrug:

You have to try and understand that his heart was broken. Lindsey is a very emotional guy, and does not hide his feelings. That's one of the reasons I like him. Good or bad you always know where you stand with Lindsey. Yes, he was a jerk to Stevie on and off stage, because he was angry at her, for breaking up with him. If you've ever had someone you love break up with you, you know how painful that is and there's a lot of anger directed towards the person that hurt you.

I think Lindsey did the best he could under the circumstances (actually I think they both did), but (IMO) that's were the division in the fan's really started. Did you feel sorry for Stevie that she had to put up with such a jerk and see that Lindsey was mean and picking on her, or did you understand that Lindsey's heart was broken and he was lashing out at the woman that it and feel sorry for Lindsey because he obviously loved her so much?

I think Stevie's a very sweet, caring, extremely generous and loving person. As I've said before I love Stevie too. She's a very strong woman and I'm pretty sure she can take care of herself when it comes to Lindsey. She's also very good a hiding her feelings in public, and Lindsey's not.

However, like I said before, does it really matter anymore? If the two of them are true to their word, they are done fighting with each other and are now good friends, so I don't think you will have to go to another show and watch him shoot nasty looks at her, or scream lyrics of a song to her anymore, telling her how he can't stand her or how he won't miss her when she's gone. :laugh:

[Desiree]

Well Desiree not everyone is a Lindsey fan right away and some may never become his fan. However, I hope he continues to grow on you, because I love him (I don't mean love, love, but love his music and even his quirky personality. He's very funny) and I also (just to clarify) love Stevie too.

My opening up to try out LB's other solo stuff and give him another chance is a direct result of seeing the changes in him that I know require real work and self analysis...I actually love them both too.

I'm sorry you too got bullied by fans that did not share your opinions. I guess I can see back in the day with Stevie and Lindsey fighting, if you were a fan of either Stevie or Lindsey you felt like you had to take their side and argue their points for them, but now why bother? Neither is dissing the other and like Lindsey said it's a love fest up on stage.

I didn't get bullied by fans, said something on FB to someone who didn't like my comment or women for that matter and he went nuts! it involved his being brought up by myself and another woman on legal charges that are still playing out. Crazy men, crazy women!
To be honest, I think a lot of what formed my opinion on LB at the time was my boyfriend. He was a musician and seemed to come from the same mold!

I hope they can keep the love going, there are lessons to be learned on that count and it feels terrific to watch it unfold. Who knows? It might just lead to new music!

[Desiree]

You have to try and understand that his heart was broken. Lindsey is a very emotional guy, and does not hide his feelings. That's one of the reasons I like him. Good or bad you always know where you stand with Lindsey. Yes, he was a jerk to Stevie on and off stage, because he was angry at her, for breaking up with him. If you've ever had someone you love break up with you, you know how painful that is and there's a lot of anger directed towards the person that hurt you.

I think Lindsey did the best he could under the circumstances (actually I think they both did), but (IMO) that's were the division in the fan's really started. Did you feel sorry for Stevie that she had to put up with such a jerk and see that Lindsey was mean and picking on her, or did you understand that Lindsey's heart was broken and he was lashing out at the woman that broke his heart and feel sorry for Lindsey because he obviously loved her so much?

I think Stevie's a very sweet, caring, extremely generous and loving person. As I've said before I love Stevie too. She's a very strong woman and I'm pretty sure she can take care of herself, when it comes to Lindsey. She's also very good a hiding her feelings in public, and Lindsey's not.

I've always thought Stevie kind of ruled Lindsey instead of the opposite. Like she behaved like a man might have in dealing or not dealing with their relationship issues.

However, like I said before, does it really matter anymore? If the two of them are true to their word, they are done fighting with each other and are now good friends, so I don't think you will have to go to another show and watch him shoot nasty looks at her, or scream lyrics of a song to her anymore, telling her how he can't stand her or how he won't miss her when she's gone. :laugh:

I think it must have been very hard for all of them and mostly because very talented and creative people tend to be high strung and hyper emotional. Throw in all matter of drugs and alcohol and BOOM! It was inevitable! That they still speak is amazing to me! And only will and want and love and desire to make amends could have gotten them this far, that I truly believe.

[redtulip]

Maybe three...hard to believe, huh? Been a fan of FM from way back. He really turned me off with his attitude from around the Rumours record and tour...such a diva, bitching all the time and acting crazy, out of control, mean...I saw them three times in a row for that tour and he was a real jerk on stage every time! Even being gorgeous wasn't enough although it was hard to take your eyes off them...I admit it drove the show, she was all vulnerable, then she'd fire back! He always seemed so angry and sullen. Much better these days although he's still uptight as hell seeming!:shrug:

Why do you think he's uptight as hell these days? I don't see it at all. Both shows I saw on this current tour he seemed very at ease and enjoying himself. Same for the 10 OMS shows I saw. In fact, take a look at this thread in the Lindsey forum: http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=52536. A few personal encounters with him described in there and all thought him to be very pleasant and open.

[Lindsfan]

Honestly, I am not trying to upset anyone. I admit I am kind of a research alcoholic, but all I really was trying to do was present another side to the discussion, so maybe you could think about it.

I hope I did not offend you or elle questioning the song's meaning.

No offense taken. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and even if I, or anyone else, was offended, so be it :shrug:

Besides...



we are discussing a meaning of LB's solo song in a Rumours forum thread discussing the album that had a lot of LB's solo material on it, but that song was not a part of that solo material predating SYW! i for one am happy about that!! :thumbsup: :nod: :cool:



my interpretation is built primarily on Bass Hall / Not Too Late doc. that whole doc is going in circles around his solo career options and choices. many songs on UTS are about that too - think Not Too Late as the most blatant example. so to me the interpretation i talked about was just a complete non-brainer, something that logically flowed from Bass Hall / Not Too Late doc. but that may not be the only interpretation and i don't think it is, otherwise LB wouldn't make a point n that interview you quoted about how his lyrics are not as literal as they used to be by citing example of that song. and, you never know, Lindsfan may be closer to the truth than we think with that weed interpretation :lol: :p.

...which is awesome :D

And I agree 100% with Elle's interpretation. Nothing about the UTS album strikes me as being even remotely related to Stevie, except for the song, UTS, which I think is directed at/to her.


You have to try and understand that his heart was broken. Lindsey is a very emotional guy, and does not hide his feelings. That's one of the reasons I like him. Good or bad you always know where you stand with Lindsey. Yes, he was a jerk to Stevie on and off stage, because he was angry at her, for breaking up with him. If you've ever had someone you love break up with you, you know how painful that is and there's a lot of anger directed towards the person that hurt you.

I think Lindsey did the best he could under the circumstances (actually I think they both did), but (IMO) that's were the division in the fan's really started. Did you feel sorry for Stevie that she had to put up with such a jerk and see that Lindsey was mean and picking on her, or did you understand that Lindsey's heart was broken and he was lashing out at the woman that it and feel sorry for Lindsey because he obviously loved her so much?

I think Stevie's a very sweet, caring, extremely generous and loving person. As I've said before I love Stevie too. She's a very strong woman and I'm pretty sure she can take care of herself when it comes to Lindsey. She's also very good a hiding her feelings in public, and Lindsey's not.

However, like I said before, does it really matter anymore? If the two of them are true to their word, they are done fighting with each other and are now good friends, so I don't think you will have to go to another show and watch him shoot nasty looks at her, or scream lyrics of a song to her anymore, telling her how he can't stand her or how he won't miss her when she's gone. :laugh:

This is the kind of thing that gets under my skin a little bit, if I'm being honest. It's no secret, as you stated, that Lindsey was/could be a real jerk, and not the best person at that time. But when you give Stevie a free pass, when she herself has said, more than once, that she wasn't always so nice either, and in fact, was sleeping with another woman's husband (Mick), was just as heavily involved (if not more so) with drugs and alcohol than Lindsey, and has no right being held on such a high pedestal. She's human. Yes, she is a sweet lady, I guess. I've never met her, but she seems like a nice lady to me. But they were all f**ked up back then, and they all have come a long way and have worked hard to become better people. People will always bash Lindsey, but when they talk about Stevie as if she never did anything wrong, or bad, for me, they lose all credibility. And I'm not just calling you out on that. I see it a lot on all different social media sites. I don't say that to bash Stevie. I just think we need to be clear that there's probably no one in that band who is without sin!

Why do you think he's uptight as hell these days? I don't see it at all. Both shows I saw on this current tour he seemed very at ease and enjoying himself. Same for the 10 OMS shows I saw. In fact, take a look at this thread in the Lindsey forum: http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=52536. A few personal encounters with him described in there and all thought him to be very pleasant and open.

I was wondering that, myself? Thirty years ago, sure. Now and again in more recent years? Sure. Most people are uptight at times, and Lindsey is no different. But Uptight as hell?? Based on what? Again, on those same social media sites that I see people bashing Lindsey, I also see a lot of tweets and posts from people who either randomly met Lindsey, or had the pleasure of working with him. And the people who have actually met him, say only really nice things about him. I've met him numerous times over the last two years, and no matter how busy he was, he was always polite, kind, and just a super nice guy. Have you met him? Was he uptight with you?

Peace :cool:

[McTrouble]

All I can say is thank goodness that Elle, Lindsfan, Redtulip and Nico are still the voices of common sense on The Ledge!

[Deeshere]

This is the kind of thing that gets under my skin a little bit, if I'm being honest. It's no secret, as you stated, that Lindsey was/could be a real jerk, and not the best person at that time. But when you give Stevie a free pass, when she herself has said, more than once, that she wasn't always so nice either, and in fact, was sleeping with another woman's husband (Mick), was just as heavily involved (if not more so) with drugs and alcohol than Lindsey, and has no right being held on such a high pedestal. She's human. Yes, she is a sweet lady, I guess. I've never met her, but she seems like a nice lady to me. But they were all f**ked up back then, and they all have come a long way and have worked hard to become better people. People will always bash Lindsey, but when they talk about Stevie as if she never did anything wrong, or bad, for me, they lose all credibility. And I'm not just calling you out on that. I see it a lot on all different social media sites. I don't say that to bash Stevie. I just think we need to be clear that there's probably no one in that band who is without sin! :

Whoa..no need to get upset, and your not calling me out, because I think you miss understood my post.

I was not trying to say Stevie never did anything wrong and give her a pass for all her bad behavior.

My post was in response to Desiree's post saying that in the past she felt like Lindsey was ...such a diva, bitching all the time and acting crazy, out of control, mean... (which she's entitled to think)

The reason I brought up Lindsey being a (perceived) jerk at all was to illustrate the point of why some fan's choose to be a fan of Stevie's over Lindsey which a lot of times comes down to as a fan: Did you feel sorry for Stevie that she had to put up with such a jerk and see that Lindsey was mean and picking on her. That DOES NOT mean that I think Lindsey is or was a jerk. I was simply stating a reason that many fans have given as to why they are a fan of Stevie.

I also wrote as a fan: did you understand that Lindsey's heart was broken and he was lashing out at the woman that did it and feel sorry for Lindsey because he obviously loved her so much ? Because again, I was simply stating the reason that many fans have given as to why they are a fan of Lindsey.

Like, I've said many time I personally don't' think he is a jerk and I also think he had a valid reasons for being angry at Stevie for so long. If you read the post in it's context, I was actually defending Lindsey by explaining why in the past I thought he acted out towards Stevie.

Neither mine or Desiree's post were even really about Stevie except to illustrate the differences of how they act in public, and also how fans perceive them as people. It was never meant to give Stevie a free pass for bad behavior or to bash Lindsey in any way, as we were never really talking about Stevie in the first place.

DANG.. I really hope you have given Lindsey your name and phone number, because if he ever needs a bodyguard, I have no doubt you would do an AMAZING job. :]

[elle]

why some fan's choose to be a fan of Stevie's over Lindsey which a lot of times comes down to as a fan: Did you feel sorry for Stevie that she had to put up with such a jerk and see that Lindsey was mean and picking on her. [/B]That DOES NOT mean that I think Lindsey is or was a jerk. I was simply stating a reason that many fans have given as to why they are a fan of Stevie.

I also wrote as a fan: did you understand that Lindsey's heart was broken and he was lashing out at the woman that did it and feel sorry for Lindsey because he obviously loved her so much ? Because again, I was simply stating the reason that many fans have given as to why they are a fan of Lindsey.

i'm completely confused... i thought people are fans of musicians because of their music, singing, songwriting, guitar playing, drumming...

[elle]

[COLOR="Indigo"]Elle, we've talked LB too and I agree with Deeshere, he's very lucky to have you.

he doesn't have me lol.

regardless, it's a nice sentiment, from both you and Deeshere. same with your wanting to defend me. but as i'm sure you've noticed i have no problems standing for my opinions. the way i see it, people who cannot bear to hear anybody's different views are the ones with a problem.

[elle]

but peeps, we strayed... let's go back to discussing Lindsey's lyrics. :D

how about Dancin'? and its one-two punch with Sad Angel?

i always considered that one really really in-your-face straightforward, but maybe there are different opinions?

[Deeshere]

i'm completely confused... i thought people are fans of musicians because of their music, singing, songwriting, guitar playing, drumming...

Right as usual Elle, however (and I know you know this) a musicians personally also matters to the fans.

[Deeshere]

but peeps, we strayed... let's go back to discussing Lindsey's lyrics. :D

how about Dancin'? and its one-two punch with Sad Angel?

i always considered that one really really in-your-face straightforward, but maybe there are different opinions?

Why talk about the lyrics Elle? You know all the new songs are about Kristen, so what does is matter anyway?? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[elle]

You know all the new songs are about Kristen, so what does is matter anyway??

i do? :confused:

i don't really think these 2 songs are about a person, i think they are directed to a person, actually.


for anybody who is not familiar with this song, since Dancin' was played just twice, live, and is not on any published material, here are the lyrics, transcribed by CAD:
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=50108 .

Deeshere apparently thinks this song is about Kristen; i don't see it. :laugh: however i can imagine SN not being very happy with this song, if she heard it. :shrug: :p

[iamnotafraid]

Me, too!


What I meant by mentioning your age is
that I thought maybe you hadn't heard
Lindsey's music because you had been a
youngin when his first solo albums came
out.

But since you're older than me (ha ha) that's
not the case.

[michelej1]

he doesn't have me lol.



He doesn't?

I personally own all 5 Macsters. I don't own the other 11 members though. Although, I do claim possession of certain stuff that they've worked on, like the French Kiss version of Sentimental Lady. Mine.

Michele

[Deeshere]

Deeshere apparently thinks this song is about Kristen; i don't see it. :laugh: however i can imagine SN not being very happy with this song, if she heard it. :shrug: :p

You know I was being sarcastic. Of course it's about Stevie. :nod:

[CADreaming]

for anybody who is not familiar with this song, since Dancin' was played just twice, live, and is not on any published material, here are the lyrics, transcribed by CAD:
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=50108 .

Deeshere apparently thinks this song is about Kristen; i don't see it. :laugh: however i can imagine SN not being very happy with this song, if she heard it. :shrug: :p

Thanks... but I think Stevie loves it. It's about her!

[elle]

Thanks... but I think Stevie loves it. It's about her!

sure, thank you!

is Come about Stevie? does she love it?

[Deeshere]

sure, thank you!

is Come about Stevie? does she love it?

Oh yeah, Comes about Stevie too, and no she hated it. Lindsey said they had a huge argument over it, and every time it was played she left the stage. I know he said it's not about her later, but Stevie obviously didn't believe him and she knows him best.

[applebucked]

Oh yeah, Comes about Stevie too, and no she hated it. Lindsey said they had a huge argument over it, and every time it was played she left the stage. I know he said it's not about her later, but Stevie obviously didn't believe him and she knows him best.
Sometimes I wonder what things S & L do NOT fight on. :shrug:

[redtulip]

Oh yeah, Comes about Stevie too, and no she hated it. Lindsey said they had a huge argument over it, and every time it was played she left the stage. I know he said it's not about her later, but Stevie obviously didn't believe him and she knows him best.

Please tell me you are joking.

[bluefox4000]

Mom gets frustrated......"DON'T THEY WRITE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE?!!!":laugh:.

mICK

[Deeshere]

Please tell me you are joking.

Uh oh. Hey, I thought everyone was allowed to have their own opinion on this board. :confused: So who or what do you think it's about? :shrug:

[CADreaming]

sure, thank you!

is Come about Stevie? does she love it?

You believe it's about Stevie?

[elle]

You believe it's about Stevie?

no idea.

actually, i think it's about his inflated arrogant male ehm... ego. ;) :laugh: he just paints himself as a need-to-be-macho a**hole with those lyrics, so i'm not really sure why SN was apparently so upset about them. :shrug: (unless they are true, i guess.) Come is a fun rocking song, and was especially and surprisingly incredible during his last year's OMS tour, when he was performing it completely alone with the click-track background.

conversely, in Dancin' lyrics he basically calls her a fame whore who is sadly trying to recapture her heyday when it shouldn't matter anymore, and in the process betraying her friends. now that's much nastier in my book, and if it is about SN, i think she called him on it and that's why he stopped doing that song.

[redtulip]

Uh oh. Hey, I thought everyone was allowed to have their own opinion on this board. :confused: So who or what do you think it's about? :shrug:

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that was a joke, right?

I think the song is about Anne Heche.

[GypsySorcerer]

I think the song is about Anne Heche.

Same here. And I think "Miranda" is too.

[Deeshere]

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that was a joke, right?

I think the song is about Anne Heche.

No, there was no joke. I am going to be honest and say, contrary to popular opinion I think it's about Stevie.

Also, Stevie also thought it was about her, because like I said Lindsey said in an interview that they argued about it being put on the CD, and she would leave the stage every time the band played the song.

[CADreaming]

Come is a fun rocking song, and was especially and surprisingly incredible during his last year's OMS tour, when he was performing it completely alone with the click-track background.

:laugh: I don't think LB's OMS or his band is near as incredible as the big FM sound, but I have to admire your persistence, especially since I will fight for BN til the bitter end!!! :)

conversely, in Dancin' lyrics he basically calls her a fame whore who is sadly trying to recapture her heyday when it shouldn't matter anymore, and in the process betraying her friends. now that's much nastier in my book, and if it is about SN, i think she called him on it and that's why he stopped doing that song.

It takes one to know one! LOL. But, you can call people on the carpet in a loving way and sometimes the truth may smart a little, especially when you love / care about someone. I think it's a statement of where she was in her career as much as it was a beckoning. He calls her raven, he calls it "our song", he is including himself in "all those who love her".

None of that is something Stevie would deny. I think she probably digs the "Dancing" part. The reason he stopped doing the song is because IT DRAGGED.... although I liked it.


Also, Stevie also thought it was about her, because like I said Lindsey said in an interview that they argued about it being put on the CD, and she would leave the stage every time the band played the song.

I never heard Stevie say she thought it was about her, just that everyone else (fans) would think that.

[michelej1]

Also, Stevie also thought it was about her, because like I said Lindsey said in an interview that they argued about it being put on the CD, and she would leave the stage every time the band played the song.

I think Stevie is inclined to think more songs are about her than really are. That's her nature. Well, human nature. Thus, what made Carly Simon's song so popular.

Given Anne Heche's mental delusions about God and the sexual abuse she says she suffered at the hands of her father, I think Miranda and Come are chiefly about her. Although, as with Stevie's song, I don't tend to think that most of Lindsey's songs are about one thing or one person. I think they're an amalgamation. And that's how thought is anyway. One event, one hurt, one relationship reminds you of another you've experienced and informs your reaction to it.

As for Stevie, it always made me chuckle how most fans think the line "you're here because I say so is about her" and she thinks THAT one is not about her and says that the lyrics are true regarding the person to whom they refer. I assume she means CAH there.

Michele

[Deeshere]

[QUOTE=CADreaming;1102212

I never heard Stevie say she thought it was about her, just that everyone else (fans) would think that.[/QUOTE]

Your right, I don't think I've ever read an interview where Stevie has ever even talked about the song Come, so I guess it was presumptuous of me to assume she thought it was. However, Lindsey said that she would walk off the stage and did not want it on the CD because she thought everyone would think it was about her, but I don't think it's too far of a stretch to think that if she thought the fan's would think the song was about her, she may have thought it was about her too or would have outright denied it.

[CADreaming]

I think Stevie is inclined to think more songs are about her than really are. That's her nature. Well, human nature. Thus, what made Carly Simon's song so popular.

Given Anne Heche's mental delusions about God and the sexual abuse she says she suffered at the hands of her father, I think Miranda and Come are chiefly about her. Although, as with Stevie's song, I don't tend to think that most of Lindsey's songs are about one thing or one person. I think they're an amalgamation. And that's how thought is anyway. One event, one hurt, one relationship reminds you of another you've experienced and informs your reaction to it.

As for Stevie, it always made me chuckle how most fans think the line "you're here because I say so is about her" and she thinks THAT one is not about her and says that the lyrics are true regarding the person to whom they refer. I assume she means CAH there.

Michele

Michele, I never read that about The Ledge. Do you have the quote? Love it.

Your right, I don't think I've ever read an interview where Stevie has ever even talked about the song Come, so I guess it was presumptuous of me to assume she thought it was. However, Lindsey said that she would walk off the stage and did not want it on the CD because she thought everyone would think it was about her, but I don't think it's too far of a stretch to think that if she thought the fan's would think the song was about her, she may have thought it was about her too or would have outright denied it.

I think Stevie left the stage because she was not on the song at all and was using it as is common, for bathroom breaks, costume changes, retouch makeup, etc.

[elle]

I think Stevie left the stage because she was not on the song at all and was using it as is common, for bathroom breaks, costume changes, retouch makeup, etc.
i tend to think so too since she does that all the time when she's not needed on the stage. but of course, there's this:

"Nicks was particularly underwhelmed by the guitarist’s insistence on bringing his solo material into the set – notably the song Come. “Think of me sweet darling, every time you don’t come,” goes the song about one of Buckingham’s ex-girlfriends. The actress Anne Heche? “Possibly,” grins the puckish guitarist, “possibly. Yes, Stevie didn’t like me doing that song. She left the stage.” At the end of the tour Nicks vowed never to work with Buckingham again."

:laugh:

[Deeshere]

but peeps, we strayed... let's go back to discussing Lindsey's lyrics. :D

how about Dancin'? and its one-two punch with Sad Angel?

i always considered that one really really in-your-face straightforward, but maybe there are different opinions?

Ok, I know I'm asking for trouble but here's my interpretation of this song. First I think this song is about Stevie (of course) as well as a message to Stevie. Lindsey was obviously upset that Stevie did not tour with the band in 2012, and Lindsey is telling her she needs to stop her solo tour for IYD and come back to the band. Mick even said in his playboy interview that this was the first time he had seen Lindsey loose his patience about Stevie dragging her feet in touring with the band.

First let me say the Raven is Stevie. A lot of fans see Rhiannon is Stevie and vice versa, and au we know Rhiannon “Takes to the sky like a bird in flight”. So (IMO) what Lindsey is saying about Stevie as well as to her is:

Poor little raven
How she's lost her way
Buys all she can
But she can't seem to pray

Lindsey thinks Stevie has lost sight of what is important. Stevie has admitted that he loves to shop and buy things (why not she’s got the money, do it). When you pray you ask for forgiveness, but you can also give thanks for what you have been given. In the last line, I think Lindsey is trying to say that Stevie has made a lot of money being in Fleetwood Mac, and that she should be grateful to the band for everything it’s done for her (money and fame) and put the band before her solo career.

All those who love her
Just wasting away

This is pretty self-explanatory; the guy’s in Fleetwood Mac love Stevie (I don’t mean in love, but they have all said they do love and care about her) and their wasting away waiting for her to finish her solo tour for IYD and come back to the band.

Dancing
Dancing

This can mean several things, but I think it could mean that the band is just dancing around (or keeping themselves occupied with things until Stevie comes back to work with the band)

Poor little raven
Addicted to fame
Trying to begin
At the end of the game

I don’t think Lindsey’s mincing words here, nor is he trying to be vague. He says he thinks Stevie is addicted to fame and he thinks she’s trying to relive her popularity from the Bella Donna years, but essentially he says it’s the end of the game (meaning Stevie’s not 30 anymore she’s 65). However, he shows he does has sympathy for her because he calls her “poor little raven”.

All those who love her
They look on in pain

Again I think Lindsey means the guy’s in Fleetwood Mac love Stevie and are watching her continue to try to recapture her (youth (I mean that metaphorically), fame, etc..) by continuing to prolong her solo IYD tour and they find it painful because they either think: 1) it’s a useless quest and/or 2) they think she doesn’t have to work so hard on the solo project, if she would just come back to Fleetwood Mac and tour with the band she could make 2 times the money with much less work (like mick said).

Dancing
Dancing

See previous explanation above.

A thousand years
With no place to go
How will we get along?

This can have several meanings, he could be talking about the religious 1000 year reign (but Lindsey doesn’t strike me as being overly religious) so I believe Lindsey is talking about Stevie’s belief in reincarnation and that the two of them will have to deal with and see each other again and again in different lives for the next 1000 years (essentially they are stuck with each other). As to the line “How will we get along” If you believe you have to deal with the same person, over and over again in different lives and you know the two of you argue about everything, he’s asking Stevie how are we going to work this out so we don’t fight with each other for the next 1000 years, because I don’t want to keep fighting.

A thousand pains
That raven never shows

I have said in previous post that I think Stevie is very good a hiding her emotions in public, and Lindsey seems to be saying the same thing. He’s saying Stevie has had a lot of pain over the years, but does not let her pain show to the public (and maybe even fully to Lindsey) but he knows it’s there.

This is our song
I don’t think I need to comment on this line, it’s self explanatory.

Promises, promises
Already planned

It seems like he’s talking about the fact that she told the guys she would tour with Fleetwood Mac in 2012 and then pulled the plug on the tour to continue with her solo tour for another year.

Innocence dies
When supply meets demand
Business and murder
They go hand in hand

The innocence of artist, musician or a band dies when they get into the “music business” and they make it big. Because after they become popular the record companies don’t want the artist to grow and make innovative or creative music, they want the same type of music over and over again until the public gets tired of it and stops buying it or the musician is so burnt out it kills their creativity (in essence the business end of the music industry murders the artist creativity). However, I also think he could also be saying this because Stevie is working so hard to sell her IYD CD, that he may be concerned she's burning her self out. So that when she come back to work with the band again she will have nothing left to offer them in the way of creativity because all her creativity and energy will be gone (or dead).

Dancing
Dancing
Dancing
Dancing

Essentially the guys are just waiting around (or dancing) for Stevie to decide to end her solo tour, so she can come back and tour with Fleetwood Mac.

I might do Sad Angel a little later, but I first I need the right lyrics. I have seen several different post with different lyrics.

[elle]

:laugh: I don't think LB's OMS or his band is near as incredible as the big FM sound, but I have to admire your persistence, especially since I will fight for BN til the bitter end!!! :)
you are entitled to your opinion, of course. and i do agree that Mac's sound is big and full and rocking, on most songs, and their concert is definitely worth experiencing.

but that's a completely different ball of wax from a LB solo show, and especially his one man show. one man show has so many intricacies and virtuosity that you can never get bored of seeing all that, multiple times, and you always discover something new. i remember feeling royally pissed at LB when he said he wouldn't do WATL the next night, and considered skipping that night's show. in the end i went, and after just minutes of the first song (having the best seat in the house helped too!), seeing his fingers working their magic right in front of me, i was immediately drawn back in and loved every minute of the show.

i don't really recommend seeing the same Mac show several times - unless you're an addict, as many of us here, apparently. :laugh: :p

so yeah, if we are talking incredible, there's no comparison, for me.

It takes one to know one! LOL. But, you can call people on the carpet in a loving way and sometimes the truth may smart a little, especially when you love / care about someone. I think it's a statement of where she was in her career as much as it was a beckoning. He calls her raven, he calls it "our song", he is including himself in "all those who love her".

None of that is something Stevie would deny. I think she probably digs the "Dancing" part. The reason he stopped doing the song is because IT DRAGGED.... although I liked it.
kinda like that ending of GDW at Mac show? :laugh: ;) :D :p

so i'm attacking LB and his lyrics as nasty and you defend him, that they are realistic? what's the world coming to? ;)

[CADreaming]

Yes, Stevie didn’t like me doing that song. She left the stage.” At the end of the tour Nicks vowed never to work with Buckingham again."

:laugh:

LOL! Forgot about that. I just dismissed the comment as LB adding fuel to the fire for the press. I mean, she's been leaving the stage since 1975 and we all know it's not because she hates his guitar playing. Back in the day it was for totally different reasons. I mean, let's be realistic.

you are entitled to your opinion, of course. and i do agree that Mac's sound is big and full and rocking, on most songs, and their concert is definitely worth experiencing.

but that's a completely different ball of wax from a LB solo show, and especially his one man show. one man show has so many intricacies and virtuosity that you can never get bored of seeing all that, multiple times, and you always discover something new. i remember feeling royally pissed at LB when he said he wouldn't do WATL the next night, and considered skipping that night's show. in the end i went, and after just minutes of the first song (having the best seat in the house helped too!), seeing his fingers working their magic right in front of me, i was immediately drawn back in and loved every minute of the show.

i don't really recommend seeing the same Mac show several times - unless you're an addict, as many of us here, apparently. :laugh: :p

so yeah, if we are talking incredible, there's no comparison, for me.


kinda like that ending of GDW at Mac show? :laugh: ;) :D :p

so i'm attacking LB and his lyrics as nasty and you defend him, that they are realistic? what's the world coming to? ;)

UGH! Of course it's NOTHING like the GDW ending. :rolleyes:

I've seen LB live solo many times since GOS tour and love it - for what it is - I prefer the big, full FM sound, because I get all of it - the big sound, being mesmerized by LB's playing and Stevie. The click track does not replace Mick and John AT ALL.

Funny about the lyrics. But, I commented to prove this point - sometimes it's not about who's right or wrong, sometimes both interpretations are right sometimes both are wrong and at the end of the day, we'll never really know for sure, because we're not the writer.

[michelej1]

Michele, I never read that about The Ledge. Do you have the quote? Love it.



No, Not that Funny I believe. There's an interview where she talks about Christine going up and telling Lindsey she hates some of his Tusk songs or refusing to play on particular ones in concert. Stevie was talking about Tusk and could have said that about "here because I say so" in that interview.

Michele

[elle]

I prefer the big, full FM sound, because I get all of it - the big sound, being mesmerized by LB's playing and Stevie. The click track does not replace Mick and John AT ALL.

sure, i understand seeing both of them being a big part of the attraction for many.

re the more filled sound, you will probably tell me all is great as long as it happens, but do you think in the end you will like Mac sound better than BN? since chances are BN backing musicians will not exactly be Mick and John ;) and considering big Mac sound includes 2 out of 3 LB's backing band members?

[michelej1]

re the more filled sound, you will probably tell me all is great as long as it happens, but do you think in the end you will like Mac sound better than BN? since chances are BN backing musicians will not exactly be Mick and John ;) and considering big Mac sound includes 2 out of 3 LB's backing band members?

Elle, it depends on the setlist. If Lindsey would stop playing songs I'm used to hearing with a Mac band, then I wouldn't have been so disappointed in OMS.

I would hope that for BN he is not doing ISA, although certainly that song began during the BN days. Of course, I thought ISA was ok with his small (3 piece) solo band, but I was so upset with it during OMS.:distress: He really let me down with that tour. DLMDA.

Michele

[elle]

Ok, I know I'm asking for trouble but here's my interpretation of this song.
thanks for going for it! :thumbsup:

i actually agree with most of your interpretation, i too thought it's pretty straightforward and clear.

raven i think comes from SN's use of EAP so much, to me that was another no-brainer.

one thing i would interpret differently is that this song (as well as Mick's Playboy interview) is probably more of a reaction on Heart and Soul cash grab than on IYD promotional tour. and counting the actual tour dates and their distribution, SN works much harder when she tours with FM than solo.

i still think this song is pretty in-your-face nasty and the goal was to get her to do something he wanted, and he stopped playing it once she said yes. (yes it dragged, but he knew that before he put it in the setlist.) Sad Angel is a loving follow-up, with somewhat similar topic and message, but without all the nastiness.

[elle]

Elle, it depends on the setlist. If Lindsey would stop playing songs I'm used to hearing with a Mac band, then I wouldn't have been so disappointed in OMS.

I would hope that for BN he is not doing ISA, although certainly that song began during the BN days. Of course, I thought ISA was ok with his small (3 piece) solo band, but I was so upset with it during OMS.:distress: He really let me down with that tour. DLMDA.

Michele

you know how much i loved OMS ISA, so hope he does LYDA with that one, i want to hear it again!

and you also know how much i complain about his insistence on some of the Mac songs (or solo mainstays like Trouble) which should not be taking place of more interesting solo songs. but even more, my disappointment was with the length of that show. he had plenty of time to add bunch of gems and he didn't.

but the OMS setlist he had was great, in a very similar manner as current Mac setlist is great. it all hangs together nicely, has an arc, and sounds really really good, but it's disappointing to big fans when they know what all could have been included.

[elle]

Dancing
Dancing

Essentially the guys are just waiting around (or dancing) for Stevie

i love your interpretation of actual dancing line :nod:, i just skipped over it when thinking about those lyrics.

[michelej1]

but the OMS setlist he had was great, in a very similar manner as current Mac setlist is great. it all hangs together nicely, has an arc, and sounds really really good, but it's disappointing to big fans when they know what all could have been included.

That OMS tour stunk.

I don't know what LYDA means.

So, you concede "penny arcade of Edgar Allan Poe" is a nod to Stevie?

Actually, although you should admit that, I will say that I find Lindsey's references to EAP in Say Goodbye to be independent of Stevie, even if the song was about her. I mean, I just think they are words that captured his imagination and had nothing to do with her affection for Poe.

Michele

[michelej1]

Oh, ok. Let you down again.
:laugh:
Michele

[MikeInNV]

I never read the lyrics to Dancin' until a minute ago. Other than this song, do we know that Lindsey was upset about Stevie delaying the Mac's plans? I remember Mick's little fit, but I thought I also remembered LB saying something like it was her right or was good for her or something else supportive. My memory is hazy, but I definitely remember thinking their reactions were the opposite of what I expected.

[SteveMacD]

I never read the lyrics to Dancin' until a minute ago. Other than this song, do we know that Lindsey was upset about Stevie delaying the Mac's plans? I remember Mick's little fit, but I thought I also remembered LB saying something like it was her right or was good for her or something else supportive. My memory is hazy, but I definitely remember thinking their reactions were the opposite of what I expected.
I think Mick said in that Playboy interview that Lindsey was also frustrated by Stevie's delaying the project. It makes sense. Lindsey DID go out of his way to make it very easy for Stevie to record with the band, even getting (the amazing) Mitchell Froom to produce the project and writing some Stevie-esq songs.

[michelej1]

Yes, he snuck Froom in under her bustle and said, "oh, look who just stopped by for a visit. You know he lives down the street."

Michele

[CADreaming]

re the more filled sound, you will probably tell me all is great as long as it happens, but do you think in the end you will like Mac sound better than BN? since chances are BN backing musicians will not exactly be Mick and John ;) and considering big Mac sound includes 2 out of 3 LB's backing band members?

I don't know but I would love the opportunity to find out! :D
Overall, I think just the thrill of hearing the old BN songs done live will be a huge score and trump anything thus far, but that's just how I hear it in my fantasy daydream concert.

Elle, it depends on the setlist. If Lindsey would stop playing songs I'm used to hearing with a Mac band, then I wouldn't have been so disappointed in OMS.

Michele

I pretty much agree with this. I wasn't as let down as you were, but I did think it was going to be an all acoustic gig and that he would have changed it up more.


raven i think comes from SN's use of EAP so much, to me that was another no-brainer.



The raven line in Dancing makes me think of both the Bob Dylan cover Love Minus Zero / No Limit he did for SYW deluxe: "My love she’s like some raven, At my window with a broken wing" and Miss Fantasy: "from a window I heard your voice, telling me you were through".

[CADreaming]

I never read the lyrics to Dancin' until a minute ago. Other than this song, do we know that Lindsey was upset about Stevie delaying the Mac's plans? I remember Mick's little fit, but I thought I also remembered LB saying something like it was her right or was good for her or something else supportive. My memory is hazy, but I definitely remember thinking their reactions were the opposite of what I expected.

Lindsey was supportive of her and she said so several times and Lindsey did say that he didn't begrudge her that time at all doing her solo thing. I would assume he felt she would be inspired from that project and experience and bring a new energy into a Mac project. Maybe in combination with her mother's death and the time she spent "underground" grieving delayed her a little longer than he had hoped, but I think Lindsey certainly understood.

[elle]

That OMS tour stunk.

I don't know what LYDA means.

So, you concede "penny arcade of Edgar Allan Poe" is a nod to Stevie?

Actually, although you should admit that, I will say that I find Lindsey's references to EAP in Say Goodbye to be independent of Stevie, even if the song was about her. I mean, I just think they are words that captured his imagination and had nothing to do with her affection for Poe.

Michele

LYDA = [you said DLMDA. so i said in that case hope he] lets you down again [with something like that OMS ISA that i would enjoy immensely.]

i actually thought that too. you know how sometimes he says "really, i used that same line in one of my previous songs?" - maybe he's teasing or playing dumb, but maybe he just likes certain lines and they stay in his head.

i think calling her raven is without a doubt a nod to SN/EAP connection. when i first heard SWS, EAP line was somehow too in your face not to be, but who knows with him.

:laugh: why do you think i "should" "admit" that? am i hiding something that i need to admit to? :confused: i did want to ask you, since you said several times that many UTS songs are about Stevie, can you tell me what am i missing (other than UTS song, i get that one)?

contrary to popular belief (or so it seems), i actually don't analyze these songs that deeply, you know i mainly listen to music. interpretations i usually give are mostly from initial impressions that i got when i heard certain song, and don't involve much deep thinking.

for example, i actually re-read those sparse Come lyrics, which i knew by heart but never thought that much about, and could find at least 3 different themes in them. but my first impression came from combination of the song title and lines that include that title. and i think that was very deliberate on his part (guess that's where his mind goes first :laugh: ), same as GOS for example, but is just one layer of interpretation.

[michelej1]

I wasn't as let down as you were, but I did think it was going to be an all acoustic gig and that he would have changed it up more.


I actually enjoyed Come more than I did with FM. But I wish he'd drop ISA and GYOW, really. And the argument that he can't because the audience expects GYOW doesn't sit well with me. Does the audience expect the classic song to sound awful?

I mean, use new arrangements. People won't like it. I had only been listening to Show You How a few weeks and was disconcerted when he changed that arrangement live. So, obviously people will be resistant to a changed GYOW, but so be it. Either adapt it to an acoustic set or drop it.

Michele

[CADreaming]

Actually, although you should admit that, I will say that I find Lindsey's references to EAP in Say Goodbye to be independent of Stevie, even if the song was about her. I mean, I just think they are words that captured his imagination and had nothing to do with her affection for Poe.

Michele

You're kidding! LOL. What a wacky wacky coincidence.... smh... :shrug::confused:

Translation: No way at all ever in the course of my life do I believe that.

[CADreaming]

I actually enjoyed Come more than I did with FM. But I wish he'd drop ISA and GYOW, really. And the argument that he can't because the audience expects GYOW doesn't sit well with me. Does the audience expect the classic song to sound awful?

I mean, use new arrangements. People won't like it. I had only been listening to Show You How a few weeks and was disconcerted when he changed that arrangement live. So, obviously people will be resistant to a changed GYOW, but so be it. Either adapt it to an acoustic set or drop it.

Michele

Agree 1000%. And, even about "Come" which is not one of my favorite songs, although I do love the guitar solo, I really liked it on the OMS tour.

[michelej1]

You're kidding! LOL. What a wacky wacky coincidence.... smh... :shrug::confused:



No, I don't think it's a wacky coincidence that they could both like Poe and both could have liked him even if they'd never met. Poe is not exactly unpopular.

Michele

[elle]

I did think it was going to be an all acoustic gig and that he would have changed it up more.

i think everyone did. i certainly did - and was worried how disappointing all acoustic gig was gonna be to me. i was not that keen on acoustic part of his SWS tour show.

i remember checking twitter as his first OMS show was going on in California, and someone posted a snippet of Come, with the comment "LB shredding" or something like that, and as i started listening to that snippet i was thinking "but... but... that's Come!?!?!". it was all uphill from there as far as i was concerned.

i loved how some reviewer described his show as LB obliterates the concept of a one-man-show... or something like that.

but i do know several other people who wanted all acoustic show from LB, and we discussed all this ad nauseum. to each their own.

[michelej1]

:laugh: why do you think i "should" "admit" that? am i hiding something that i need to admit to? :confused:

Well, yes. I like to imagine that you're hiding many things. Like the sentimental tears you couldn't help but shed during Landslide, for instance.

Michele

[CADreaming]

No, I don't think it's a wacky coincidence that they could both like Poe and both could have liked him even if they'd never met. Poe is not exactly unpopular.

Michele

Well, sure. But, it is Stevie and Lindsey. Not like he had no clue about her affinity - or even that she was working on Annabel Lee for that matter.

[michelej1]

Well, sure. But, it is Stevie and Lindsey. Not like he had no clue about her affinity - or even that she was working on Annabel Lee for that matter.

Poe just strikes me as someone whose words Lindsey would have an independent interest in and I doubt that he likes the same poems or short stories of his that capture Stevie's interest.

I think Dream Within a Dream is Lindseyesque, for reasons having nothing to do with her.

Michele

[elle]

Well, yes. I like to imagine that you're hiding many things. Like the sentimental tears you couldn't help but shed during Landslide, for instance.

Michele

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

don't know if you are aware that i actually love Landslide. it just sounds real to me. but it doesn't make me sentimental. actually you know what just occurred to me (CAD will hate this) - it's not the part i love about it, but the sentiment of Landslide partially reminds me of Pearl Jam's Better Man.

now when live versions of Rock Away Blind come up in my car, that makes me cry (for OMS :p )

[michelej1]

Dee,

Stevie said that about NTF in April 1980, for the Australian interview. Regarding, you're here cause I say so.

"The girls don't like that line. That's not a big line with the women here in America, but its ok because that's how he feels. To whom he is speaking to, it is true. I think that in this song that Lindsey is being very honest that he's angry and he's talking about some real kind of air relationships. I like to hear him talk about things because he's not a talker and he doesn't like to expound. He just figures either you understand or you're stupid."

[iamnotafraid]

I don't think it's a wacky coincidence that they could both like Poe and both could have liked him even if they'd never met.

Michele


If Poe were able to read the lyrics
of the songs from the album SYW
it's doubtful he would have liked
them.

[Lindsfan]

Dee,

Stevie said that about NTF in April 1980, for the Australian interview. Regarding, you're here cause I say so.

"The girls don't like that line. That's not a big line with the women here in America, but its ok because that's how he feels. To whom he is speaking to, it is true. I think that in this song that Lindsey is being very honest that he's angry and he's talking about some real kind of air relationships. I like to hear him talk about things because he's not a talker and he doesn't like to expound. He just figures either you understand or you're stupid."

What's an air relationship?

[CADreaming]

Dee,

Stevie said that about NTF in April 1980, for the Australian interview. Regarding, you're here cause I say so.

Thanks Michele!