Meat-Eating Debate (Relocated Thread)

[Jondalar]

Yes, I think wearing fur is a cruel and barbaric practice. But to be honest, I think the harvesting of animals for food and leather, especially on an industrial scale, is also cruel and barbaric. I don't want to tell people how to live their lives, but I do find it difficult to reconcile killing/eating/wearing some animals (the ugly ones), yet vilifying the wearing of other animals (the cute ones). As far as I'm concerned, welfare for animals is universal, and it doesn't matter whether they are cute/cuddly or not. You either condone animal cruelty or you don't, period. Accordingly, if a person makes the personal decision to eat meat and wear leather, why not wear fur too? :shrug: I know that's not a popular stance, but at least they're being consistent. What would be especially egregious is if Stevie went around spouting about militant veganism and wearing fur at the same time. But from what we can tell, Mama loves her steak, which is unfortunate (especially given the history of heart disease in her family), but she is a grown woman who can make her own decisions.

I eat meet, but I won't wear fur. To me, it's not a real meal without meat. I think the problem is population when it comes to animal cruelty. There should be a limit on how many kids people can have. One reason why animals are slaughtered so barbraically is because of the demand. Everything is out of balance because of the world population. Resources are dwindling. Animals are just treated like a resource. Kill them quick and make a buck.

Still, humans were mean't to eat meat in my opinion. It's a shame the animals are treated.

[HejiraNYC]

I eat meet, but I won't wear fur. To me, it's not a real meal without meat. I think the problem is population when it comes to animal cruelty. There should be a limit on how many kids people can have. One reason why animals are slaughtered so barbraically is because of the demand. Everything is out of balance because of the world population. Resources are dwindling. Animals are just treated like a resource. Kill them quick and make a buck.

Still, humans were mean't to eat meat in my opinion. It's a shame the animals are treated.

No offense, but there are so many contradictions and whoppers in that post that I just can't bring myself to try to point them out without sounding like a pedantic arse (well, any more so than usual).

[Jondalar]

No offense, but there are so many contradictions and whoppers in that post that I just can't bring myself to try to point them out without sounding like a pedantic arse (well, any more so than usual).

I just think that vegans who don't like people eating meat are extremist. What whoppers? Animals are treated cruely out of demand. Chicken farms... blah blah The world is overpopulated. Animals are suffering because of it. However, meat is good. I like it. Fur is an extravagance.

[Pyewacket]

Meat is an extravagance...especially if you agree we weren't meant to eat it (and prehistorically speaking, there was a time when we didn't). We don't need it by any means, it actually does considerable harm to us when we rely on it for every meal and it is environmentally unsound.

Not to get into a vegan/vegetarian/carni-war (everyone here is a grown-up and can make their own choices), but being informed beforehand about those choices can only do us all good.

[HejiraNYC]

I just think that vegans who don't like people eating meat are extremist. What whoppers? Animals are treated cruely out of demand. Chicken farms... blah blah The world is overpopulated. Animals are suffering because of it. However, meat is good. I like it. Fur is an extravagance.

I didn't say that all people should be vegans. I just said that people should be consistent in their beliefs and behaviors. And your assertion that animals are treated cruelly because of overpopulation is absurd. There's plenty of grain to go around; unfortunately, a large chunk of it gets diverted towards animal feed. And there is a long-established statistic that it takes something like 22 pounds of plant protein to produce one pound of animal protein. Quite simply, if people decreased or eliminated their reliance on animals for food, there would be more grain to feed the world, less pollution of water (from cattle run-off), less carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, less western diseases (heart disease, stroke, diabetes, cancer, etc.), and more aerable land for fruits and vegetables. At the end of the day, demand for animals is set, not by the number of people on the planet, but on the number of people who choose to consume meat. You may think that people were meant to eat meat, but the totality of scientific data would suggest strongly otherwise.

[Jondalar]

I didn't say that all people should be vegans. I just said that people should be consistent in their beliefs and behaviors. And your assertion that animals are treated cruelly because of overpopulation is absurd. There's plenty of grain to go around; unfortunately, a large chunk of it gets diverted towards animal feed. And there is a long-established statistic that it takes something like 22 pounds of plant protein to produce one pound of animal protein. Quite simply, if people decreased or eliminated their reliance on animals for food, there would be more grain to feed the world, less pollution of water (from cattle run-off), less carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, less western diseases (heart disease, stroke, diabetes, cancer, etc.), and more aerable land for fruits and vegetables. At the end of the day, demand for animals is set, not by the number of people on the planet, but on the number of people who choose to consume meat. You may think that people were meant to eat meat, but the totality of scientific data would suggest strongly otherwise.

Overpopluation means more animals are being bread just to be butchered. It also means less room for animals to roam free. The animals that are here are relagated to certain areas. And NO as far as "if people decreased or eliminated their reliance on animals for food, there would be more grain to feed the world, less pollution of water (from cattle run-off), less carbon dioxide in the atmosphere." Not when the human population continues to spiral out of control. The science keeps changing too, depending on which side a person is arguing on. Humans are more abundant on the planet than cattle and take up a lot more space. Animals will keep becoming extinct because of it.

[Jondalar]

Meat is an extravagance...especially if you agree we weren't meant to eat it (and prehistorically speaking, there was a time when we didn't). We don't need it by any means, it actually does considerable harm to us when we rely on it for every meal and it is environmentally unsound.

Not to get into a vegan/vegetarian/carni-war (everyone here is a grown-up and can make their own choices), but being informed beforehand about those choices can only do us all good.

We did eat it. Monkeys even eat meat. Surprise! And the sciences that you guys are talking aren't truth. Science is not old. It keeps changing over and over again, especially paleantology and sciences related to Anthrology. My area of specialization in college was Anthropology. New things are discovered all the time and keep changing the so called TRUTHS.

[HejiraNYC]

We did eat it. Monkeys even eat meat. Surprise! And the sciences that you guys are talking aren't truth. Science is not old. It keeps changing over and over again, especially paleantology and sciences related to Anthrology. My area of specialization in college was Anthropology. New things are discovered all the time and keep changing the so called TRUTHS.

Oh, I didn't realize that I was dealing with someone wno knows the TRUTH, science be damned. Many apologies. :rolleyes: I think you've pretty much said all there needs to be said right there. :eek:

[Jondalar]

Oh, I didn't realize that I was dealing with someone wno knows the TRUTH, science be damned. Many apologies. :rolleyes: I think you've pretty much said all there needs to be said right there. :eek:

Well, you skirted the issue. Overpopulation is at the heart of the problem. And who said I know the truths. I don't, but I do know that science is consistently changing, going back and forth between fact and fiction.

[Pyewacket]

We did eat it. Monkeys even eat meat. Surprise! And the sciences that you guys are talking aren't truth. Science is not old. It keeps changing over and over again, especially paleantology and sciences related to Anthrology. My area of specialization in college was Anthropology. New things are discovered all the time and keep changing the so called TRUTHS.


Some monkeys do eat meat -- but sparingly. The primary source of food for all primates is vegetation. We are the only primate that consumes so much animal matter.

And the "sciences we guys are talking" are truth. You can say that theories change all the time, sure, but you can't just sweep away all facts by saying that and not coming up with a specific study or fact to refute it. That's like saying "atoms aren't real because there may be a study in the future that says they aren't." C'mon.

And yes, the production of meat takes up far more energy and space and has far more environmental repercussions (not to mention health problems) than farming would for the same amount of nutritional food. Surprise! It's true. Again, find me the accredited study that says it's not. And good luck with that.



I do not mean to come across as a vegan hun (largely because I am not vegan -- or even vegetarian -- and last I checked, I am not a hun). I don't even like being preach-y. But facts ARE facts and should be accepted as such. Overpopulation sucks, sure, and there is nothing that can realistically be done to curtail it. However there are simple and fairly easy things we can do to help out with our environment and our health and being less cruel. Not eating meat every time you sit down at a table is one of those things.

[KarmaContestant]

Just wanted to throw something out there regarding the whole meat or no-meat debate. As a side note, I eat meat, but in very small quantites. I'd wager that I eat as much meat in one year as the average American eats in three days, and the bulk of that is on pizza that I didn't order. Americans eat too much meat - it's hardly an essential part of our diets in the quantites in which it is consumed, and should be treated as a luxury item, in my opinion.

Anyway, I recently read the book Eating Animals (a GREAT book by the way, and I'd recommend it to vegans, carnivores and vegetarians). The author made a very good point regarding factory farming and the barbaric methods with which animals are treated in a modern world supposedly so concerned with compassion and the humane treatment of all life forms; I don't rememebr the exact words but basically he said "If you eat chicken, and you recognize the suffering and brutality that this animal endured, and you can live with that sitting on your conscience, so be it. However, if you eat chicken simply because it tastes good, then you are part of the problem."

The 'problem' of course is obesity, mad cow disease, SARS, H1N1 and the incredibly unethical methods used to satisfy America's demand for flesh. Most people would be truly horrified if they knew the truth, if they witnessed the reality behind the shiny, sanitary packaging in the grocery store. In 2000, Americans ate an average of 195 pounds (boneless) of flesh annually - 57 more pounds per person than in 1950, and we eat more meat per capita than any other nation on Earth.

Regarding the topic of fur and leather: on the surface I don't have an issue with the byproducts of the meat industry being used for other materials and goods - it only makes sense that the skin of slaughtered cattle and pigs should be turned into shoes, but ultimately I would prefer that the demand didn't exist in the first place to justify the supply all of that leather. I do wear leather shoes - which may be hypocritical on my part, but it is what it is until an equally sturdy, resilient and affordable alternative becomes available. I have made peace with the issue.

The industrial production of animals exclusively for fur products is repugnant. If you're not going to eat it, there is no justification for killing it unless your survival is called into question, and to the best of my knowledge none of my local grocery stores are selling mink and fox in their meat cases.

http://www.eatinganimals.com/

[HejiraNYC]

Some monkeys do eat meat -- but sparingly. The primary source of food for all primates is vegetation. We are the only primate that consumes so much animal matter.

And the "sciences we guys are talking" are truth. You can say that theories change all the time, sure, but you can't just sweep away all facts by saying that and not coming up with a specific study or fact to refute it. That's like saying "atoms aren't real because there may be a study in the future that says they aren't." C'mon.

And yes, the production of meat takes up far more energy and space and has far more environmental repercussions (not to mention health problems) than farming would for the same amount of nutritional food. Surprise! It's true. Again, find me the accredited study that says it's not. And good luck with that.

I do not mean to come across as a vegan hun (largely because I am not vegan -- or even vegetarian -- and last I checked, I am not a hun). I don't even like being preach-y. But facts ARE facts and should be accepted as such. Overpopulation sucks, sure, and there is nothing that can realistically be done to curtail it. However there are simple and fairly easy things we can do to help out with our environment and our health and being less cruel. Not eating meat every time you sit down at a table is one of those things.

Thanks for adding a voice of reason to this discussion. But we are dealing with someone who probably believes in Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck. There's no such thing as global warming. Animals were put on earth by God to be consumed. Science is part of the liberal propaganda machine, etc. I see the warning signs and I'm staying clear!

[Jondalar]

Some monkeys do eat meat -- but sparingly. The primary source of food for all primates is vegetation. We are the only primate that consumes so much animal matter.

And the "sciences we guys are talking" are truth. You can say that theories change all the time, sure, but you can't just sweep away all facts by saying that and not coming up with a specific study or fact to refute it. That's like saying "atoms aren't real because there may be a study in the future that says they aren't." C'mon.

And yes, the production of meat takes up far more energy and space and has far more environmental repercussions (not to mention health problems) than farming would for the same amount of nutritional food. Surprise! It's true. Again, find me the accredited study that says it's not. And good luck with that.



I do not mean to come across as a vegan hun (largely because I am not vegan (or even vegetarian) and I am not a hun. I don't even like being preach-y. But facts ARE facts and should be accepted as such. Overpopulation sucks, sure, and there is nothing that can realistically be done to curtail it. However there are simple and fairly easy things we can do to help out with our environment and our health and being less cruel. Not eating meat every time you sit down at a table is one of those things.

No they are not truth. New techniques are developed regulary to evaluate how we lived thousands of years ago. Hell, scientist still go back and forth on Neanderthal man, who basically only ate meat. They are still debating whether or not Neanderthal man actually cross bread with modern humans and is part of our dna. New studies say no. But it's still up in the air. It could change next month. Man only really started to populate the planet when agriculture was developed. Population was not much of an issue, neither was war, which is what happens when people compete for resources.

As far as the data used for the arguement for eating less meat, that can be applied to overpoplulation too. And we can do something about that. As far as Heart Disease, Cancer... Good. I'm glad they are here. (Checks and balances.) If there were no diseases then we would really be screwed. There are 7 BILLION people on this planet. That is way too much. The projection for 2050 is 9 BILLION. If you think animals are being treated cruelly now, wait till they are gone.

[Pyewacket]

^Beautifully put, KarmaContestant.

I believe many of us simply don't want to know the facts because they are essentially an inconvenient truth and sausage on a pizza tastes so damn good. And there are those who hunt and those who ranch and have become very desensitized to the killing of animals for money or product. That is unfortunate to say the least.

Here's a guy, with whom I essentially disagree about the consumption of meat, but who makes some really good points on respect and reverence and simply facing the truth about where that nicely packaged ground comes from. This man went in to butcher a cow. And he still eats meat now, but...less of it. And is mindful of where it came from.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0NurqEub-N0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Jondalar]

Thanks for adding a voice of reason to this discussion. But we are dealing with someone who probably believes in Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck. There's no such thing as global warming. Animals were put on earth by God to be consumed. Science is part of the liberal propaganda machine, etc. I see the warning signs and I'm staying clear!

Don't insult me. Did you not read my posts? And you are not a voice of reason at all, and never have been.

[Pyewacket]

New techniques are developed regulary to evaluate how we lived thousands of years ago. Hell, scientist still go back and forth on Neanderthal man, who basically only ate meat.


Sources please. Or even just singular: source. Just one accredited source from "Anthrology" or wherever it is that you're getting your "facts."

[mezzoforte]

I've always wondered why there's so much vitriol directed at celebs who wear fur. I don't so much mean here, but it feels like every picture of an actress in a fur coat is followed by 50 comments criticizing it. I'd argue that eating sushi daily and supporting the fishing industry is more harmful than owning a mink coat, no? Certainly I don't *love* the idea of fur, but I own leather boots and jackets--I don't feel like I'm in a position to judge.

[Jondalar]

Sources please. Or even just singular: source. Just one accredited source from "Anthrology" or wherever it is that you're getting your "facts."

I cannot these believe these freaking people.

Here is just one article from the New York Times, but actually there some kind of special about it on tv. Of course, I paid attention since it was a specialization of mine in college.

Neanderthals mated with some modern humans after all and left their imprint in the human genome, a team of biologists has reported in the first detailed analysis of the Neanderthal genetic sequence.
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The New York Times

Max-Planck-Institute EVA
The Neanderthal DNA that Svante Pääbo analyzed came from these three bones.
The biologists, led by Svante Paabo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, have been slowly reconstructing the genome of Neanderthals, the stocky hunters that dominated Europe until 30,000 years ago, by extracting the fragments of DNA that still exist in their fossil bones. Just last year, when the biologists first announced that they had decoded the Neanderthal genome, they reported no significant evidence of interbreeding.

Scientists say they have recovered 60 percent of the genome so far and hope to complete it. By comparing that genome with those of various present day humans, the team concluded that about 1 percent to 4 percent of the genome of non-Africans today is derived from Neanderthals. But the Neanderthal DNA does not seem to have played a great role in human evolution, they said.

Experts believe that the Neanderthal genome sequence will be of extraordinary importance in understanding human evolutionary history since the two species split some 600,000 years ago.

So far, the team has identified only about 100 genes — surprisingly few — that have contributed to the evolution of modern humans since the split. The nature of the genes in humans that differ from those of Neanderthals is of particular interest because they bear on what it means to be human, or at least not Neanderthal. Some of the genes seem to be involved in cognitive function and others in bone structure.

“Seven years ago, I really thought that it would remain impossible in my lifetime to sequence the whole Neanderthal genome,” Dr. Paabo said at a news conference. But the Leipzig team’s second conclusion, that there was probably interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans before Europeans and Asians split, is being met with reserve by some archaeologists.

A degree of interbreeding between modern humans and Neanderthals in Europe would not be greatly surprising given that the species overlapped there from 44,000 years ago when modern humans first entered Europe to 30,000 years ago when the last Neanderthals fell extinct. Archaeologists have been debating for years whether the fossil record shows evidence of individuals with mixed features.

But the new analysis, which is based solely on genetics and statistical calculations, is more difficult to match with the archaeological record. The Leipzig scientists assert that the interbreeding did not occur in Europe but in the Middle East and at a much earlier period, some 100,000 to 60,000 years ago, before the modern human populations of Europe and East Asia split. There is much less archaeological evidence for an overlap between modern humans and Neanderthals at this time and place.

Dr. Paabo has pioneered the extraction and analysis of ancient DNA from fossil bones, overcoming daunting obstacles over the last 13 years in his pursuit of the Neanderthal genome. Perhaps the most serious is that most Neanderthal bones are extensively contaminated with modern human DNA, which is highly similar to Neanderthal DNA. The DNA he has analyzed comes from three small bones from the Vindija cave in Croatia.

“This is a fabulous achievement,” said Ian Tattersall, a paleontologist at the American Museum of Natural History in New York, referring to the draft Neanderthal genome that Dr. Paabo’s team describes in Thursday’s issue of Science.

But he and other archaeologists questioned some of the interpretations put forward by Dr. Paabo and his chief colleagues, Richard E. Green of the Leipzig institute, and David Reich of Harvard Medical School. Geneticists have been making increasingly valuable contributions to human prehistory, but their work depends heavily on complex mathematical statistics that make their arguments hard to follow. And the statistical insights, however informative, do not have the solidity of an archaeological fact.

“This is probably not the authors’ last word, and they are obviously groping to explain what they have found,” Dr. Tattersall said.

Richard Klein, a paleontologist at Stanford, said the authors’ theory of an early interbreeding episode did not seem to have taken full account of the archaeological background. “They are basically saying, ‘Here are our data, you have to accept it.’ But the little part I can judge seems to me to be problematic, so I have to worry about the rest,” he said.

In an earlier report on the Neanderthal genome, the reported DNA sequences were found by other geneticists to be extensively contaminated with human DNA. Dr. Paabo’s group has taken extra precautions but it remains to be seen how successful they have been, Dr. Klein said, especially as another group at the Leipzig institute, presumably using the same methods, has obtained results that Dr. Paabo said he could not confirm.

Dr. Paabo said that episode of human-Neanderthal breeding implied by Dr. Reich’s statistics most plausibly occurred “in the Middle East where the first modern humans appear before 100,000 years ago and there were Neanderthals until 60,000 years ago.” According to Dr. Klein, people in Africa expanded their range and reached just Israel during a warm period some 120,000 years ago. They retreated during a cold period some 80,000 years ago and were replaced by Neanderthals. It is not clear whether or not they overlapped with Neanderthals, he said.

These humans, in any case, were not fully modern and they did not expand from Africa, an episode that occurred some 30,000 years later. If there was any interbreeding, the flow of genes should have been both ways, Dr. Klein said, but Dr. Paabo’s group sees evidence for gene flow only from Neanderthals to modern humans.

The Leipzig group’s interbreeding theory would undercut the present belief that all human populations today draw from the same gene pool that existed a mere 50,000 years ago. “What we falsify here is the strong out-of-Africa hypothesis that everyone comes from the same population,” Dr. Paabo said.

In his and Dr. Reich’s view, Neanderthals interbred only with non-Africans, the people who left Africa, which would mean that non-Africans drew from a second gene pool not available to Africans.

[HejiraNYC]

Just wanted to throw something out there regarding the whole meat or no-meat debate. As a side note, I eat meat, but in very small quantites. I'd wager that I eat as much meat in one year as the average American eats in three days, and the bulk of that is on pizza that I didn't order. Americans eat too much meat - it's hardly an essential part of our diets in the quantites in which it is consumed, and should be treated as a luxury item, in my opinion.

Anyway, I recently read the book Eating Animals (a GREAT book by the way, and I'd recommend it to vegans, carnivores and vegetarians). The author made a very good point regarding factory farming and the barbaric methods with which animals are treated in a modern world supposedly so concerned with compassion and the humane treatment of all life forms; I don't rememebr the exact words but basically he said "If you eat chicken, and you recognize the suffering and brutality that this animal endured, and you can live with that sitting on your conscience, so be it. However, if you eat chicken simply because it tastes good, then you are part of the problem."

The 'problem' of course is obesity, mad cow disease, SARS, H1N1 and the incredibly unethical methods used to satisfy America's demand for flesh. Most people would be truly horrified if they knew the truth, if they witnessed the reality behind the shiny, sanitary packaging in the grocery store. In 2000, Americans ate an average of 195 pounds (boneless) of flesh annually - 57 more pounds per person than in 1950, and we eat more meat per capita than any other nation on Earth.

Regarding the topic of fur and leather: on the surface I don't have an issue with the byproducts of the meat industry being used for other materials and goods - it only makes sense that the skin of slaughtered cattle and pigs should be turned into shoes, but ultimately I would prefer that the demand didn't exist in the first place to justify the supply all of that leather. I do wear leather shoes - which may be hypocritical on my part, but it is what it is until an equally sturdy, resilient and affordable alternative becomes available. I have made peace with the issue.

The industrial production of animals exclusively for fur products is repugnant. If you're not going to eat it, there is no justification for killing it unless your survival is called into question, and to the best of my knowledge none of my local grocery stores are selling mink and fox in their meat cases.

http://www.eatinganimals.com/

Thanks for the book idea... I shall add it to my list of reading material. The statistics on increased meat consumption cannot be easily extricated from the increased incidence of obesity and related illnesses over the same period of time. It's difficult to pinpoint exactly how/why this all came to be, but I would wager a good guess that it is largely due to the U.S. system of corn subsidies, which makes animal feed dirt cheap- to the point where cattle are raised completely on corn, despite the fact that they are grass-eating animals. Accordingly, meat is much cheaper at the store than its true, embodied value. I think the only way to alter the landscape is to eliminate this subsidy and force the price of meat to rise to its actual value while subsidizing the production of fruits and vegetables for the end consumer, not for the food refineries. It drives me crazy that two fresh tomatoes at the grocery store can cost more than a can of tomatoes or a jar of tomato sauce. Low income people really have no choice to but to consume unhealthy meat- and corn-based products because they are invariably the most affordable options that offer the most calories per dollar. And in NYC and many other cities, the poorest neighborhoods are also the neighborhoods that are the least likely to have a convenient source for fresh produce while being the most likely to have the highest per capita fast food establishments.

There is so much wrong with this system- food, health, environment, economics, politics... that it drives me crazy when people go around spouting untruths about the situation. Again, eating meat is a personal choice. But at least be willing to consider the consequences of your choices at face value without trying to cloud it with some kind of irrelevant conservative talking points.

[Jondalar]

Oh this one is from the Christian Monitor

Study suggests humans mated with Neanderthals
A study of DNA from humans living today has found signs of Neanderthal genes, suggesting that interbreeding occurred between the two species.

Humans today could be part Neanderthal, according to a new study that found our ancestors interbred with an extinct hominid species some millennia ago.

X Woman: Not human, not Neanderthal, what is she?
Jewelry: so easy a cave man can do it
Fossil DNA tells tales of red-haired Neanderthals
Neanderthals walked the Earth between about 130,000 and 30,000 years ago. While they co-existed with modern humans for a while, eventually they went extinct and we didn't. There has been intense scientific debate over how similar the two species were, and whether they might have mated with each other.

"The issue has been highly contentious for some time," said University of New Mexico genetic anthropologist Keith Hunley.

Last week at the annual meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists in Albuquerque, N.M., Hunley and colleagues presented the results of a new study that found evidence for interbreeding between modern humans and some other extinct ancient human species – either Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) or another group such as Homo heidelbergensis. The research was first reported by NatureNews.

The researchers looked at DNA samples from humans living today, and found signs of leftover Neanderthal genes introduced from this interbreeding. They looked at genetic data from almost 2,000 people around the world, and calculated how much genetic variation existed between samples. The results indicate that some extinct group of hominids mixed their genes with ours at two points in history, Hunley said.

One period of interbreeding probably occurred shortly after Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa around 60,000 years ago. The researchers found an excess of genetic diversity in all modern people except Africans, suggesting that the influx of Neanderthal-like DNA came after the exodus from Africa.

A second period of interbreeding is suggested by the fact that the researchers measured even more genetic diversity among people of Oceanic descent – people from Australia, New Zealand, New Guinea and other Pacific islands.

"I think we show there's clear evidence in the genome of living people of this mixture," Hunley told LiveScience. "The fact that there's a clear signal implies that there was some significant amount" of interbreeding, he said.

This work is the first time scientists have used DNA from living people to look at this question, Hunley said.

In an earlier study, Erik Trinkaus of Washington University in St. Louis found suggestions of Neanderthal and modern human interbreeding by comparing ancient bone fossils from the two species.

Trinkaus said the new work fits into his findings, though he hasn't reviewed the details yet since Hunley's paper has not yet been published in a peer-reviewed journal. "The conclusion makes sense and fits with the majority of the data available," Trinkaus said.

Another anthropologist who has studied Neanderthal anatomy agreed.

"I have been arguing for this position throughout my career, ever since I began to study Neandertals and other populations," said Milford Wolpoff of the University of Michigan. "It has always seemed clear that some Neandertal anatomy appears in living populations."

Not everyone, though, will be easily convinced yet, Hunley said.

[KarmaContestant]

I've always wondered why there's so much vitriol directed at celebs who wear fur. I don't so much mean here, but it feels like every picture of an actress in a fur coat is followed by 50 comments criticizing it. I'd argue that eating sushi daily and supporting the fishing industry is more harmful than owning a mink coat, no? Certainly I don't *love* the idea of fur, but I own leather boots and jackets--I don't feel like I'm in a position to judge.

I agree, although ultimately I see very little difference between wearing animal fur/skin and wearing human skin...even though I wear leather shoes as well. Have you seen The Cove? The Japanese fisherman say they have to slaughter all those dolphins every year because they are eating too much fish. Seriously.

[KarmaContestant]

It drives me crazy that two fresh tomatoes at the grocery store can cost more than a can of tomatoes or a jar of tomato sauce. Low income people really have no choice to but to consume unhealthy meat- and corn-based products because they are invariably the most affordable options that offer the most calories per dollar.

I know, right?! I'll never get over the shock and awe while watching Food, Inc., and seeing that family load up their cart with Pepsi and Mountain Dew, all the while complaining that they couldn't afford broccoli at $1.49 per pound.

[Pyewacket]

"I cannot freaking these believe these people..." for what? For being so incendiary as to ask for sources, and not about Neanderthals, who, are completely irrelevant to this conversation and are likely 98% irrelevant to our lineage?

Are you so attached to your happy meal that you must keep creating diversions to what is essentially a simple equation? World overpopulation? Sure it's a problem -- not sure what you're going to do about it in say, China or Latin America, where it's epidemic. Neanderthals? Or course they ate meat and so did our primary ancestors, the Cro-Magnons (they drew it on their cave walls), but what about before that?

We have always been primarily a vegetarian species -- overwhelmingly so -- until the stone age, and even then, we simply added a little meat when we could. But we don't need to now. We have simply become used to it, because now we don't hunt...we just buy. And buy, and buy, in huge Costco portions that are making us fatter and ruining our environs. At least when we hunted, we didn't cause the animal lifelong discomfort, or in many cases, agony. We should pay attention to what we are eating and why we are eating it. This is all I am saying. If you choose to eat an extra bit of burger today out of spite, so be it. But why not cut down? It simply makes a lot more sense.

[HejiraNYC]

I've always wondered why there's so much vitriol directed at celebs who wear fur. I don't so much mean here, but it feels like every picture of an actress in a fur coat is followed by 50 comments criticizing it. I'd argue that eating sushi daily and supporting the fishing industry is more harmful than owning a mink coat, no? Certainly I don't *love* the idea of fur, but I own leather boots and jackets--I don't feel like I'm in a position to judge.

Agreed. Sort of. I recall a number of years back reading about the killing of "innocent dolphins" who happened to get caught up in Japanese tuna nets. And I was like, well, aren't the tuna innocent too? Do they deserve to be killed? :shrug: Have you seen The Cove? Definitely essential viewing. It just goes to show you that people have the capacity to be completely barbaric and shameless when money is involved.

[HejiraNYC]

"I cannot freaking these believe these people..." for what? For being so incendiary as to ask for sources, and not about Neanderthals, who, are completely irrelevant to this conversation and are likely 98% irrelevant to our lineage.

Our you so attached to your happy meal that you must keep creating diversions to what is essentially a simple equation? World overpopulation? Sure it's a problem -- not sure what you're going to do about it in say, China or Latin America, where it's epidemic. Neanderthals? Or course they ate meat and so did our primary ancestors, the Cro-Magnons (they drew it on their cave walls), but what about before that? What

Regardless of Man's origins, guess what? We evolved. Enough said. I don't see what some thick-skulled, knuckle-dragging Neanderthal has to do with us today. They didn't have the intellectual capacity to prevent their own extinction, so why should they be held up as an example of how modern humans should live their lives today? :shrug:

[Jondalar]

ok, here is another source. And I'm doing this to show that science is tit for tat. Someone can quote a scource and then another person can quote another source with a different take or different perspective. Science is a lot like religion. You have to have faith.

Humans are Omnivores

Adapted from a talk by John McArdle, Ph.D.

There are a number of popular myths about vegetarianism that have no scientific basis in fact. One of these myths is that man is naturally a vegetarian because our bodies resemble plant eaters, not carnivores. In fact we are omnivores, capable of either eating meat or plant foods. The following addresses the unscientific theory of man being only a plant eater.

Confusion between Taxonomy and Diet

Much of the misinformation on the issue of man's being a natural vegetarian arises from confusion between taxonomic (in biology, the procedure of classifying organisms in established categories) and dietary characteristics.

Members of the mammalian Order Carnivora may or may not be exclusive meat eaters. Those which eat only meat are carnivores. Dietary adaptations are not limited by a simple dichotomy between herbivores (strict vegetarians) and carnivores (strict meat-eaters), but include frugivores (predominantly fruit), gramnivores (nuts, seeds, etc.), folivores (leaves), insectivores (carnivore-insects and small vertebrates), etc. Is is also important to remember that the relation between the form (anatomy/physiology) and function (behavior) is not always one to one. Individual anatomical structures can serve one or more functions and similar functions can be served by several forms.

Omnivorism

The key category in the discussion of human diet is omnivores, which are defined as generalized feeders, with neither carnivore nor herbivore specializations for acquiring or processing food, and who are capable of consuming and do consume both animal protein and vegetation. They are basically *opportunistic* feeders (survive by eating what is available) with more generalized anatomical and physiological traits, especially the dentition (teeth). All the available evidence indicates that the natural human diet is omnivorous and would include meat. We are not, however, required to consume animal protein. We have a choice.

The Great Apes

There are very few frugivores amongst the mammals in general, and primates in particular. The only apes that are predominantly fruit eaters (gibbons and siamangs) are atypical for apes in many behavioral and ecological respects and eat substantial amounts of vegetation. Orangutans are similar, with no observations in the wild of eating meat.

Gorillas are more typically vegetarian, with less emphasis on fruit. Several years ago a very elegant study was done on the relationship between body size and diet in primates (and some other mammal groups). The only primates on the list with pure diets were the very small species (which are entirely insectivorous) and the largest (which specialize in vegetarian diet). However, the spectrum of dietary preferences reflect the daily food intake needs of each body size and the relative availability of food resources in a tropical forest. Our closest relatives among the apes are the chimpanzees (i.e., anatomically, behaviorally, genetically, and evolutionarily), who frequently kill and eat other mammals (including other primates).

Evidence of Humans as Omnivores

Archeological Record

As far back as it can be traced, clearly the archeological record indicates an omnivorous diet for humans that included meat. Our ancestry is among the hunter/gatherers from the beginning. Once domestication of food sources began, it included both animals and plants.

Cell Types

Relative number and distribution of cell types, as well as structural specializations, are more important than overall length of the intestine to determining a typical diet. Dogs are typical carnivores, but their intestinal characteristics have more in common with omnivores. Wolves eat quite a lot of plant material.

Fermenting Vats

Nearly all plant eaters have fermenting vats (enlarged chambers where foods sits and microbes attack it). Ruminants like cattle and deer have forward sacs derived from remodeled esophagus and stomach. Horses, rhinos, and colobine monkeys have posterior, hindgut sacs. Humans have no such specializations.

Jaws

Although evidence on the structure and function of human hands and jaws, behavior, and evolutionary history also either support an omnivorous diet or fail to support strict vegetarianism, the best evidence comes from our teeth.

The short canines in humans are a functional consequence of the enlarged cranium and associated reduction of the size of the jaws. In primates, canines function as both defense weapons and visual threat devices. Interestingly, the primates with the largest canines (gorillas and gelada baboons) both have basically vegetarian diets. In archeological sites, broken human molars are most often confused with broken premolars and molars of pigs, a classic omnivore. On the other hand, some herbivores have well-developed incisors that are often mistaken for those of human teeth when found in archeological excavations.

Salivary Glands

These indicate we could be omnivores. Saliva and urine data vary, depending on diet, not taxonomic group.

Intestines

Intestinal absorption is a surface area, not linear problem. Dogs (which are carnivores) have intestinal specializations more characteristic of omnivores than carnivores such as cats. The relative number of crypts and cell types is a better indication of diet than simple length. We are intermediate between the two groups.

Conclusion

Humans are classic examples of omnivores in all relevant anatomical traits. There is no basis in anatomy or physiology for the assumption that humans are pre-adapted to the vegetarian diet. For that reason, the best arguments in support of a meat-free diet remain ecological, ethical, and health concerns.

[Dr. McArdle is a vegetarian and currently Scientific Advisor to The American Anti-Vivisection Society. He is an anatomist and a primatologist.]

[HejiraNYC]

ok, here is another source. And I'm doing this to show that science is tit for tat. Someone can quote a scource and then another person can quote another source with a different take or different perspective. Science is a lot like religion. You have to have faith.

Humans are Omnivores

Adapted from a talk by John McArdle, Ph.D.
For that reason, the best arguments in support of a meat-free diet remain ecological, ethical, and health concerns.[

Dr. McArdle is a vegetarian and currently Scientific Advisor to The American Anti-Vivisection Society. He is an anatomist and a primatologist.]

This is the issue, not all of that evolutionary mumbo-jumbo.

[Jondalar]

Regardless of Man's origins, guess what? We evolved. Enough said. I don't see what some thick-skulled, knuckle-dragging Neanderthal has to do with us today. They didn't have the intellectual capacity to prevent their own extinction, so why should they be held up as an example of how modern humans should live their lives today? :shrug:

Because people keep talking about origins and science.

Neanderthal man could be part of our DNA. Many vegans claim that what we evolved from creatures that did not eat meat. Well, I highly doubt that is true. Many animals that are considered carnivores eat plants and vice versa. Anyway, Neanderthal ate very little plants (if you believe the science). They basically lived off meat. If they are part of our DNA then man may be even more inclined to eat meat.

It doesn't really matter. Humans are neither a herbivore or carnivore.

"They didn't have the intellectual capacity to prevent their own extinction." Modern man doesn't seem to have it either. No checks and balances. Hell, 9 billion in 2050. In 2100 will it be 12 Billion. UGG!

[Jondalar]

This is the issue, not all of that evolutionary mumbo-jumbo.

No the issue is overpopulation leads to cruelty—animal cruelty, wars... there are no checks and balances.

[Pyewacket]

So...animal cruelty is a recent development, say in the last 100 years?

Animal dependency leads to animal cruelty. And wars have been around forever and are not always caused by competition for resources. Many have been ideological (no, I am the king) or religious (yay, religion!).

Overpopulation is a sidebar, and a distraction. It has less to do with "eating animals" than "not eating animals" does.

[louielouie2000]

ok, here is another source. And I'm doing this to show that science is tit for tat. Someone can quote a scource and then another person can quote another source with a different take or different perspective. Science is a lot like religion. You have to have faith.

This has got to be one of my favorite quotes of Ledgedom, especially the part I bolded. I love how we debate really deep, meaningful issues here. :nod:

[vivfox]

I would suggest moving this thread to chit chat and changing the title because this thread is supposed to be about whether or not Stevie wears real or fake fur.

[Jondalar]

So...animal cruelty is a recent development, say in the last 100 years?

Animal dependency leads to animal cruelty. And wars have been around forever and are not always caused by competition for resources. Many have been ideological (no, I am the king) or religious (yay, religion!).

Overpopulation is a sidebar, and a distraction. It has less to do with "eating animals" than "not eating animals" does.

Those religions are all about populating the earth with lots of children to spread their religion. They are fighting over who will control the population. What religion tells its flock to have less children. Religions are all about population and domination. The resource they are competing for is people. A tribes did fight each but it was really over food. Sorry, but lots of wars are disquised. We went to war basically for oil, but the president tried to say it was for something else. It's resources.

No overpopulation is not a sidebar. It's the main reason why the planet is in the shape it is in today. It's the real reason, but no one likes to talk about it.

[jannieC]

I have not had a chance to read all of the responses here, but I can't WAIT to do so. I do want to quickly respond to the idea that cruelty to animals comes from overpopulation. The cruelty to animals comes from GREED. God, I wish I were not at work so I could get in on this discussion. Please consider this post as my place holder, or bookmark.

[chriskisn]

Oh dear not the old vegetarian debate again. It is kind of like politics and religion, not the sort of thing to bring up at the dinner table. I have never known this discussion lead to anything but arguments (oh and believe me I've had this debate many times). There are the people who say "but we are meant to eat meat" and the people who say "but eating meat is cruel" and they are never ever going to agree or see things from the same perspective.

My two cents worth here though is that if you eat meat, and you are happy to eat meat, then don't be upset if other cultures eat dogs, cats, horses or whales. I drives me insane the amount of meat eating people who complain about commercial whaling.

Oh and the old "we are meant to eat meat" argument. Sure this may well be true and I wouldn't profess to be an expect in this area. If we look back at our ancestors though, we can quite easily work out that we probably aren't meant to drive in cars, fly in planes, practise monogamy, or a whole list of other things. Good thing that cannibalism and human sacrifice never caught on !

[APerfectLie]

Both sides have pros and cons and neither side is "right". Why can't people just accept that it is a personal choice and allow others to live their lives as they please?

[jannieC]

One reason why animals are slaughtered so barbraically is because of the demand. Everything is out of balance because of the world population. Resources are dwindling. Animals are just treated like a resource. Kill them quick and make a buck.

Still, humans were mean't to eat meat in my opinion. It's a shame the animals are treated.
I addressed the first statement in my earlier post. Thanks to greedy corporations, factory farmed animals are given a life of pain and suffering. Factory farmed animals (aka, the meat on your table) are looked at as a commodity to be exploited. Their lives are hell; the slaughter is the final "relief". We use animals for food, clothing, transport, protection, entertainment and companionship. In return, humane treatment is the least we can provide.

It's actually more than just a "shame" that the animals are treated this way. They're pumped up with growth hormones, appetite stimulants, pesticides and antibiotics. These chemicals build up and collect and the animals milk and tissues.

Animals are suffering because of it. However, meat is good. I like it.

Truthfully, there's really no way to respond to this in a way you would hear and understand. :shrug:



Again, eating meat is a personal choice. But at least be willing to consider the consequences of your choices at face value without trying to cloud it with some kind of irrelevant conservative talking points.

Yes. When I was younger (in my twenties), I was much more outspoken in regard to my beliefs. As I've gotten older and more mellow, I realize that it's not my job to "save" the animals. I do wish that people would be more mindful about the reality of factory farmed animals. I am not a vegetarian vigilante. My mother eats meat, as does my 17 year old step son. It's not up to me to dictate what someone else eats. Why then, do some meat eaters feel the need to ruthlessly prove why it's so important for us to eat meat?

I've heard all of the arguments related to whether or not we are meant to eat meat. I've heard all about canines and cave men, etc. Who cares? Animals were killed swiftly and without torture.

I'm losing steam- it's late (for me-old lady). It's an age old debate that does not need to be fought. Non meat eaters tend to debate it because of the belief that modern day farming and meat eating is detrimental not only to one's health but to the over all environment. People who love meat debate it because...:shrug:

Sorry for typos- I'm tired. :)

[louielouie2000]

Both sides have pros and cons and neither side is "right". Why can't people just accept that it is a personal choice and allow others to live their lives as they please?

That's exactly my response to just about every debate in life: religion, marriage, sexuality, politics, children, etc.

[HomerMcvie]

That's exactly my response to just about every debate in life: religion, marriage, sexuality, politics, children, etc.

Word.


fukcing 10 characters

[mezzoforte]

Oh dear not the old vegetarian debate again. It is kind of like politics and religion, not the sort of thing to bring up at the dinner table. I have never known this discussion lead to anything but arguments (oh and believe me I've had this debate many times). There are the people who say "but we are meant to eat meat" and the people who say "but eating meat is cruel" and they are never ever going to agree or see things from the same perspective.

My two cents worth here though is that if you eat meat, and you are happy to eat meat, then don't be upset if other cultures eat dogs, cats, horses or whales. I drives me insane the amount of meat eating people who complain about commercial whaling.

Oh and the old "we are meant to eat meat" argument. Sure this may well be true and I wouldn't profess to be an expect in this area. If we look back at our ancestors though, we can quite easily work out that we probably aren't meant to drive in cars, fly in planes, practise monogamy, or a whole list of other things. Good thing that cannibalism and human sacrifice never caught on !

You're right--these arguments will never be productive. I don't think these sorts of debates will ever change anyone's mind--no diehard meat eater is going to read an internet debate and say "you're right, I will go vegan!" Just as no atheist will ever say, "Thanks for explaining it--the Mormon faith sounds perfect for me!"

And yet....
Most of us have a certain amount of investment in these topics. We define ourselves in part by how we align on these sorts of issues. Heck, I float somewhere in the middle--I've given up seafood for environment reasons, but not meat, and don't particularly begrudge either party. And even I can't stop myself from butting in on these unproductive conversations.

I was intrigued by your opinion on cats, dogs, and whales. I agree with you on cats and dogs--the idea makes me a little squeamish (no way could I eat a cat), but I agree that it's unfair for meat-eaters to draw a moral line there. As Americans and Europeans, most of us spent our formative years with Fluffy and Rex, and impose those memories on very different cultures. Basically, unless an animal is endangered or threatened (or highly intelligent--sentience has meaning IMO), I think it's unfair for meat-eaters to get too judge-y.

But whales? Are they really in the same category? I realize most whaling is carried out by indigenous communities and it may not be fair of us to imposeon their cultural traditions, but I definitely have a problem with hunting threatened species of whales. I'm less sure about non-endangered species--for me, the question with any kind of fishing comes down to the method they use and how destructive it is to other marine life. But I honestly don't know much about commercial whaling, and am very open to being educated...

[McTrouble]

If we weren't meant to eat cows then they wouldn't have been created meat flavoured - OK I know its an old joke but I couldn't resist it ;)

[ButterCookie]

If we weren't meant to eat cows then they wouldn't have been created meat flavoured - OK I know its an old joke but I couldn't resist it ;)

Omg! That was so funny, I actually forgot to laugh :shocked:

[chriskisn]

If we weren't meant to eat cows then they wouldn't have been created meat flavoured - OK I know its an old joke but I couldn't resist it ;)

Apparently humans taste real good too!

[chiliD]

Regardless of Man's origins, guess what? We evolved. Enough said. I don't see what some thick-skulled, knuckle-dragging Neanderthal has to do with us today. They didn't have the intellectual capacity to prevent their own extinction, so why should they be held up as an example of how modern humans should live their lives today? :shrug:


And, you're saying modern man DOES know how to prevent their own extinction? I seriously doubt that...especially if you watch Fox News for more than 10 minutes. We're on a collision course with our own species demise...have been for as long as we've been on Earth. (assuming we came from elsewhere in the Universe) Humans have basically been the "cancer cell" lifeform on this planet. We've grown in population totally unchecked like a malignancy. But, we'll get our due in time...not my lifetime, maybe not even our great-great-great-great grandchildren's, but eventually, humans will not exist on this planet. Gone like a cool breeze.

[bluefox4000]

And, you're saying modern man DOES know how to prevent their own extinction? I seriously doubt that...especially if you watch Fox News for more than 10 minutes. We're on a collision course with our own species demise...have been for as long as we've been on Earth. (assuming we came from elsewhere in the Universe) Humans have basically been the "cancer cell" lifeform on this planet. We've grown in population totally unchecked like a malignancy. But, we'll get our due in time...not my lifetime, maybe not even our great-great-great-great grandchildren's, but eventually, humans will not exist on this planet. Gone like a cool breeze.

Reminds of one of my fav George Carlin pieces.....The planet is fine.....The people.....ARE FUKED:thumbsup:

Mick

[APerfectLie]

And, you're saying modern man DOES know how to prevent their own extinction? I seriously doubt that...especially if you watch Fox News for more than 10 minutes. We're on a collision course with our own species demise...have been for as long as we've been on Earth. (assuming we came from elsewhere in the Universe) Humans have basically been the "cancer cell" lifeform on this planet. We've grown in population totally unchecked like a malignancy. But, we'll get our due in time...not my lifetime, maybe not even our great-great-great-great grandchildren's, but eventually, humans will not exist on this planet. Gone like a cool breeze.

"Especially if you watch Fox News" :lol:

Eventually, nothing will exist on this planet.

[Jondalar]

You're right--these arguments will never be productive. I don't think these sorts of debates will ever change anyone's mind--no diehard meat eater is going to read an internet debate and say "you're right, I will go vegan!" Just as no atheist will ever say, "Thanks for explaining it--the Mormon faith sounds perfect for me!"

And yet....
Most of us have a certain amount of investment in these topics. We define ourselves in part by how we align on these sorts of issues. Heck, I float somewhere in the middle--I've given up seafood for environment reasons, but not meat, and don't particularly begrudge either party. And even I can't stop myself from butting in on these unproductive conversations.

I was intrigued by your opinion on cats, dogs, and whales. I agree with you on cats and dogs--the idea makes me a little squeamish (no way could I eat a cat), but I agree that it's unfair for meat-eaters to draw a moral line there. As Americans and Europeans, most of us spent our formative years with Fluffy and Rex, and impose those memories on very different cultures. Basically, unless an animal is endangered or threatened (or highly intelligent--sentience has meaning IMO), I think it's unfair for meat-eaters to get too judge-y.

But whales? Are they really in the same category? I realize most whaling is carried out by indigenous communities and it may not be fair of us to imposeon their cultural traditions, but I definitely have a problem with hunting threatened species of whales. I'm less sure about non-endangered species--for me, the question with any kind of fishing comes down to the method they use and how destructive it is to other marine life. But I honestly don't know much about commercial whaling, and am very open to being educated...

Whales are almost extinct? The Blue Whale, the largest creature on the planet has been on the endangered species list for years.

[mezzoforte]

Whales are almost extinct? The Blue Whale, the largest creature on the planet has been on the endangered species list for years.

Believe me, I'm well aware. I don't think there's any debate over killing blue whales.
As I said in my post, mist whaling is carried out by indigenous communities on a subsistence level. They hunt mainly smaller baleen whales like minke whales. Right now, minke whales are considered to be of "least concern.". I don't know how accurate that is, though--often species are mislabeled LC because of insufficient data. With marine mammals, I would guess it's especially hard to ascertain.

Anyway, the morality of whaling by indigenous communities is an interesting debate, but probably not relevant here since it opens the door to some very messy issues. I was merely responding to another posters argument that it isn't fair to judge other cultures for eating whales, cats, and dogs. I think you may have missed my point, Jondolar.

[Jondalar]

Believe me, I'm well aware. I don't think there's any debate over killing blue whales.
As I said in my post, mist whaling is carried out by indigenous communities on a subsistence level. They hunt mainly smaller baleen whales like minke whales. Right now, minke whales are considered to be of "least concern.". I don't know how accurate that is, though--often species are mislabeled LC because of insufficient data. With marine mammals, I would guess it's especially hard to ascertain.

Anyway, the morality of whaling by indigenous communities is an interesting debate, but probably not relevant here since it opens the door to some very messy issues. I was merely responding to another posters argument that it isn't fair to judge other cultures for eating whales, cats, and dogs. I think you may have missed my point, Jondolar.

I get it. I don't blame other cultures for eating animals as long as they are not endangered.

My arguement is that most of the most of the problems we talk about come about from overpopulation but no one wants to talk about putting limits on family size. It's obvious that that is going to have to happen. China had to do it because of population and people tried to put a negative on it by saying they killed baby girls. Well, there are wackos in every community and you can't babysit everyone. People kill children even when there are not limits on population.

[McTrouble]

Apparently humans taste real good too!

Yeah, that Snake & Pygmy Pie goes down real well with cannibals!:eek:

[Jondalar]

Yeah, that Snake & Pygmy Pie goes down real well with cannibals!:eek:

I think a lot of cannibalism also stems out of religions. Go figure.

[jannieC]

Apparently humans taste real good too!

Well, eating bacon is almost like noshing on a three year old human. :wavey:

<a href="http://www.suite101.com/content/the-intelligent-pig-a84448">A roadblock humans have in deciphering intelligence in animals is that we can't help but assume the smartest ones must resemble us. Clearly, nobody told that to the pig.</a>

[KarmaContestant]

Well, eating bacon is almost like noshing on a three year old human. :wavey:

<a href="http://www.suite101.com/content/the-intelligent-pig-a84448">A roadblock humans have in deciphering intelligence in animals is that we can't help but assume the smartest ones must resemble us. Clearly, nobody told that to the pig.</a>

^^^^And that is where my aversion to meat stems from. Eating something that has greater intelligence than human children is not something I can reconcile.

I will never forget an article from an old National Geographic about tigers being caged and killed for food in Asia, and the madness and despair in the eyes of the big cats as they were carted off. They knew their fate, and it haunts me.

[jannieC]

^^^^And that is where my aversion to meat stems from. Eating something that has greater intelligence than human children is not something I can reconcile.

I will never forget an article from an old National Geographic about tigers being caged and killed for food in Asia, and the madness and despair in the eyes of the big cats as they were carted off. They knew their fate, and it haunts me.

Obviously, I feel the same way. I know that I won't be able to ever eat meat. But truthfully, I know that a non meat diet is not for everyone. I mention the intelligence thing to bring awareness. Animals do not need to be treated with cruelty and disrespect to end up on one's dinner table.

I have to restate what I said earlier:

We use animals for food, clothing, transport, protection, entertainment and companionship. In return, humane treatment is the least we can provide.

(Though hardly anyone is responding to me here. Is it because I am a moderator? I will not ban anyone for disagreeing with me!)

[HomerMcvie]

Even though I eat very little meat now, I'm VERY thankful that the meat processing industry does what it does.

Because if I had to kill them myself, I couldn't do it.

Today, 1/2 a slice of bacon(just the taste, is the reason I'm still eating salad 4-5 days a week, after 18 months), and 4 fish sticks, baked.

[HejiraNYC]

Even though I eat very little meat now, I'm VERY thankful that the meat processing industry does what it does.

Because if I had to kill them myself, I couldn't do it.

Today, 1/2 a slice of bacon(just the taste, is the reason I'm still eating salad 4-5 days a week, after 18 months), and 4 fish sticks, baked.

Yes, thank goodness that 80% of the U.S. antibiotics supply gets used by the meat processing industry. Fresh off today's Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laurie-david/antibiotics-agriculture_b_830061.html

Reading through the replies, I love how everyone says that the solution to the problem of Big Meat is to buy only farm-raised/grass-fed meat, which is clearly not sustainable for feeding the U.S. population at its current meat-consuming capacity. It's usually some ignorant limousine liberal douche who thinks that the world's problems can all be solved if we pay "a little more" for organic stuff and shop at Whole Foods. The problem is not the means of production as much as it is the U.S. lifestyle, which needs to be changed drastically to avert a looming ecological, economic and medical catastrophe. It's the western diet that demands the intense utilization of land for meat production and all of its environmental consequences. And perhaps it's also time that modern civilization learned a thing or two about empathy, not only for the cute and cuddly dogs and cats, but for all sentient beings. The complete lack of remorse in today's society really sickens me.

/rant

[HomerMcvie]

Wow.

That was a rant!

[HejiraNYC]

Obviously, I feel the same way. I know that I won't be able to ever eat meat. But truthfully, I know that a non meat diet is not for everyone. I mention the intelligence thing to bring awareness. Animals do not need to be treated with cruelty and disrespect to end up on one's dinner table.

I have to restate what I said earlier:

We use animals for food, clothing, transport, protection, entertainment and companionship. In return, humane treatment is the least we can provide.

(Though hardly anyone is responding to me here. Is it because I am a moderator? I will not ban anyone for disagreeing with me!)

I think people are put off by some of the outre comments about overpopulation (which really has nothing to do with the issue of eating meat). And others think it's a hot-button issue that should never be discussed. But I disagree... the decision over eating meat is not an intrinsic factor that we are born with; it is purely choice. And the more informed we are about our choices, the better.

Personally, I do think a non-meat diet would work for everyone. Food is one of the necessities of life. But it can also be an addiction. And the most ubiquitous food choices we have today are invariably the most quickly prepared, made of the cheapest ingredients, have unimaginably long shelf lives/stability, and offer abundant stimuli for the western palette- sweet, oily and salty. Meat and dairy products fit perfectly into that equation. So it is no wonder that there is so much resistance against eating fresh, unprocessed "real" food; it doesn't whop you over the head with stimulation, and people are addicted to this stimulation. But as with any other drug, I think people can be detoxed. And, yes, people can lose their taste for meat. Very quickly too. When I stopped eating meat 23 years ago, within two months I was convinced that I would never eat meat again, and these days I can't even stomach the thought, just from a taste perspective alone. Earlier in my life I had assumed that vegetarians/vegans were all hippie freaks who were malnourished and living a miserable life of self-deprivation and longing. That's so not true at all. In the least. I think the bottom line is that people who claim that eating meat is a necessity, or that they could not survive without meat, should actually test that theory. Not only will they lose their taste for meat, they'll probably feel a lot better physically.

/propaganda

[jannieC]

I think people are put off by some of the outre comments about overpopulation (which really has nothing to do with the issue of eating meat). And others think it's a hot-button issue that should never be discussed. But I disagree... the decision over eating meat is not an intrinsic factor that we are born with; it is purely choice. And the more informed we are about our choices, the better.

Personally, I do think a non-meat diet would work for everyone. Food is one of the necessities of life. But it can also be an addiction. And the most ubiquitous food choices we have today are invariably the most quickly prepared, made of the cheapest ingredients, have unimaginably long shelf lives/stability, and offer abundant stimuli for the western palette- sweet, oily and salty. Meat and dairy products fit perfectly into that equation. So it is no wonder that there is so much resistance against eating fresh, unprocessed "real" food; it doesn't whop you over the head with stimulation, and people are addicted to this stimulation. But as with any other drug, I think people can be detoxed. And, yes, people can lose their taste for meat. Very quickly too. When I stopped eating meat 23 years ago, within two months I was convinced that I would never eat meat again, and these days I can't even stomach the thought, just from a taste perspective alone. Earlier in my life I had assumed that vegetarians/vegans were all hippie freaks who were malnourished and living a miserable life of self-deprivation and longing. That's so not true at all. In the least. I think the bottom line is that people who claim that eating meat is a necessity, or that they could not survive without meat, should actually test that theory. Not only will they lose their taste for meat, they'll probably feel a lot better physically.

/propaganda

I agree with everything you say. I also think most people would be better off doing lots of things. That doesn't mean that everyone has it in their heart to <i>care</i>.

I accidentally ate a bite of regular chicken salad last month and seriously almost vomited. I had no idea that chicken tasted so, <i>chicken-ey</i>!

In response to your first post (rant :) ), I hope you don't think I am one of those douches. I shop at Earth Fair because it's the only place I can find the types of non-meat foods I love. They also sell "organic" meat which bugs me, because I think it's bull476t too. Why does Earth Fair HAVE to sell meat products? Because they probably wouldn't survive without it. The old me could have written your rant. I think I have gotten old and tired. :o

It's been over 20 years for me, as well, and I have never looked back. I lost a lot of weight initially, most likely from the shock of eliminating all of that animal fat and grease. Ah, but have since gained it all back, and then some. Don't need meat to be chubby. :)

[chriskisn]

Well, eating bacon is almost like noshing on a three year old human. :wavey:

<a href="http://www.suite101.com/content/the-intelligent-pig-a84448">A roadblock humans have in deciphering intelligence in animals is that we can't help but assume the smartest ones must resemble us. Clearly, nobody told that to the pig.</a>

Yes and actually pigs are very much like dogs. They can be taught to sit on command, etc and love a good ear scratch.

[jannieC]

Yes and actually pigs are very much like dogs. They can be taught to sit on command, etc and love a good ear scratch.

The fact that they are known to sing to their babies while nursing them really gets to me.

[chriskisn]

I get it. I don't blame other cultures for eating animals as long as they are not endangered.


Lots of people do though. In Australia, where I live, whaling is a big issue, especially because Japan keeps whaling in our Antarctic waters. People all over the country get upset about whaling and then tuck into a nice piece of steak, lamb, etc.

A few years back there was an outcry when our then prime minister referred to Deng Xiaoping as a "three puppy a day man" which he maintained was a compliment not an insult.

Over here in Western Australia there has recently been a huge outcry because a butcher has started selling horse meat which hasn't been available here before. He has even had death threats, etc.

My point is, unless you are a vegetarian, don't get worked up about it!

[HomerMcvie]

The fact that they are known to sing to their babies while nursing them really gets to me.

But bacon is the best tasting thing in the world!!!:sorry:


I really eat SO little meat. Seriously, in the past year, I've probably had 5-6 lbs of bacon, and a couple of lbs of ground beef, and that's pretty much it. Oh, and I went out with friends, for steak, twice(I get the smallest, 6 oz one, that they have).

And while I DO feel better now, with only a taste of meat, about 3 times a week, I will always want meat. Although I don't crave red meat, nearly as much as I used to. But I NEED chicken and fish. Mmm, love me some fish!

[HejiraNYC]

I agree with everything you say. I also think most people would be better off doing lots of things. That doesn't mean that everyone has it in their heart to <i>care</i>.

That four-letter word "care" is what it's all about. About everything in life. People "care" only as long as it doesn't inconvenience them or their families.


I accidentally ate a bite of regular chicken salad last month and seriously almost vomited. I had no idea that chicken tasted so, <i>chicken-ey</i>!

I used to buy mah-po tofu, a spicy concoction, from this place in Chinatown. The first couple of times I had it, I noticed that my stomach couldn't handle it very well (I won't get graphic). I assumed it was just "one of those things." I didn't automatically draw any correlation. But the next time I had it, there was a bone in it, which meant that they must have flavored it with something meaty. And that totally explained my stomach issues; my body just can't handle animal flesh anymore! I think that is a wonderful thing, to be quite honest.


In response to your first post (rant :) ), I hope you don't think I am one of those douches. I shop at Earth Fair because it's the only place I can find the types of non-meat foods I love. They also sell "organic" meat which bugs me, because I think it's bull476t too. Why does Earth Fair HAVE to sell meat products? Because they probably wouldn't survive without it. The old me could have written your rant. I think I have gotten old and tired. :o

Oh, no! I should have explained myself better. By "limousine liberal douche," I was referring to those (typically upscale) people who think they can simply spend their way into being environmentally conscious- by shopping at Whole Foods, buying organic produce, buying farm-raised meat, etc. And they think they are leading by example when 90% of the world can't afford to do all of this. They make token gestures like wearing bamboo T-shirts and recycling soda cans and they think they're going to save the planet; meanwhile, they still eat meat, still consume imported products, still drive SUVs, etc. I'm not saying that everyone who shops at Whole Foods is a douche. I'm just saying that people should not delude themselves into thinking they're making a positive choice for their bodies or the environment just by shopping there. You shouldn't have to be rich to be "green."


It's been over 20 years for me, as well, and I have never looked back. I lost a lot of weight initially, most likely from the shock of eliminating all of that animal fat and grease. Ah, but have since gained it all back, and then some. Don't need meat to be chubby. :)

I lost a lot of weight too, and this was before I did any research about diet and nutrition. So my first couple of months consisted of assaulting my body with donuts, pizza, tater tots and pasta. And even then, the weight came off rapidly- like 20 pounds almost immediately (I wasn't exactly heavy to begin with). But I gained it all back and then some once I made the resolve to work out regularly-so it was pretty much all muscle. :thumbsup: I have pretty much stayed within a 10-pound range ever since. Just stay away from any white starches and you're weight will be totally manageable.

Anyway, I know it's hard to be veg when all of the people around you are not. I have it easy because I don't have to cook/shop for anyone. I assume you probably have to "hold your nose" deal with meat for your family? If so, my condolences!

[HejiraNYC]

But bacon is the best tasting thing in the world!!!:sorry:


I really eat SO little meat. Seriously, in the past year, I've probably had 5-6 lbs of bacon, and a couple of lbs of ground beef, and that's pretty much it. Oh, and I went out with friends, for steak, twice(I get the smallest, 6 oz one, that they have).

And while I DO feel better now, with only a taste of meat, about 3 times a week, I will always want meat. Although I don't crave red meat, nearly as much as I used to. But I NEED chicken and fish. Mmm, love me some fish!

Watching shows like Top Chef, I noticed that the common theme of putting just a sprinkling of bacon in everything, including desserts! :eek: I guess that's how you win; everyone loves the taste.

[jannieC]

Anyway, I know it's hard to be veg when all of the people around you are not. I have it easy because I don't have to cook/shop for anyone. I assume you probably have to "hold your nose" deal with meat for your family? If so, my condolences!

No, my husband stopped eating meat several years ago. My mom doesn't cook much anymore and she has her own apartment (in the house) so if she cooks meat I only vaguely smell it. I don't buy it or cook it. My mother in law (who we eat a big Sunday meal with each week) almost always fixes non meat meals when we're there. I have to admit that I do eat some fish, so I am not a "true" vegetarian. But I do the best I can. :)

[HejiraNYC]

No, my husband stopped eating meat several years ago. My mom doesn't cook much anymore and she has her own apartment (in the house) so if she cooks meat I only vaguely smell it. I don't buy it or cook it. My mother in law (who we eat a big Sunday meal with each week) almost always fixes non meat meals when we're there. I have to admit that I do eat some fish, so I am not a "true" vegetarian. But I do the best I can. :)

Well, then I will refrain from sending you articles about mercury levels in fish. :lol: I'm glad everyone is along for the ride; I just hope your kid does not get peer pressure, or worse yet, get tsk tsk'd by other disapproving mothers. I'll bet there are certain areas of the country where "forcing" a vegetarian diet on your child is considered child abuse. :rolleyes:

[jannieC]

Well, then I will refrain from sending you articles about mercury levels in fish. :lol: I'm glad everyone is along for the ride; I just hope your kid does not get peer pressure, or worse yet, get tsk tsk'd by other disapproving mothers. I'll bet there are certain areas of the country where "forcing" a vegetarian diet on your child is considered child abuse. :rolleyes:

Oh, I hear, "give the kid a chicken nugget...it won't kill her!" from time to time. :rolleyes:

It's funny, my mother said I always struggled with eating meat as a kid. My hamburgers had to be hockey pucks and she would always have to cut the chicken off the bone and hide it from me before I ate. :shocked:

[HejiraNYC]

Oh, I hear, "give the kid a chicken nugget...it won't kill her!" from time to time. :rolleyes:

It's funny, my mother said I always struggled with eating meat as a kid. My hamburgers had to be hockey pucks and she would always have to cut the chicken off the bone and hide it from me before I ate. :shocked:

So I guess she wanted you to think chicken grew on trees. :lol:

Being "fresh off the boat," my parents immediately hit the ground running with American food. The earliest memories of my childhood are about eating at KFC every Sunday, year after year, for years! :eek: And there was no such thing as too much meat; I literally had it three times a day, every day of the week. And huge quantities of it. :eek: My mother would make hamburger patties that were 2 inches thick and 6 inches in diameter and pack them in my lunchbag for school; even the other kids thought it was nasty. My parents were also big membership warehouse fiends (even before Costco), so they would load up on industrial size cases of hot dogs, salami, bologna, ham... and after school I would literally take a package of sliced ham and eat it right out of the cellophane while I was watching TV. :eek: In a way, I think I've already eaten enough meat for a lifetime. :lol: So when I finally got off the meat wagon (or on it?), my body was quite shocked... in a good way. It also forced my mother to start learning how to cook without meat, and today my parents are pretty much vegetarian at home. I think it annoys my father a bit, but even he acknowledges that he feels a bit lighter on his feet after spending several days at my meat-free house.

[markolas]

I've attempted vegetarianism once or twice, and never lasted a day. Do you just get used to being hungry all the time? I can't understand these people who have a cup of yogurt for breakfast, a salad for lunch, and some pasta & beans for dinner. If that was my food intake for the day, I'd be ready to kill somebody.

[jannieC]

So I guess she wanted you to think chicken grew on trees. :lol:

Being "fresh off the boat," my parents immediately hit the ground running with American food. The earliest memories of my childhood are about eating at KFC every Sunday, year after year, for years! :eek: And there was no such thing as too much meat; I literally had it three times a day, every day of the week. And huge quantities of it. :eek: My mother would make hamburger patties that were 2 inches thick and 6 inches in diameter and pack them in my lunchbag for school; even the other kids thought it was nasty. My parents were also big membership warehouse fiends (even before Costco), so they would load up on industrial size cases of hot dogs, salami, bologna, ham... and after school I would literally take a package of sliced ham and eat it right out of the cellophane while I was watching TV. :eek: In a way, I think I've already eaten enough meat for a lifetime. :lol: So when I finally got off the meat wagon (or on it?), my body was quite shocked... in a good way. It also forced my mother to start learning how to cook without meat, and today my parents are pretty much vegetarian at home. I think it annoys my father a bit, but even he acknowledges that he feels a bit lighter on his feet after spending several days at my meat-free house.

I may have you beat. We had a "meat man" that would come to the house and sell meat to my mother. She would have her order ready and he would fill up our meat freezer in the basement. I remember that I loved bacon. And actually pork chops, too. I didn't give up eating meat because I hated the taste, that's for sure.

[jannieC]

I've attempted vegetarianism once or twice, and never lasted a day. Do you just get used to being hungry all the time? I can't understand these people who have a cup of yogurt for breakfast, a salad for lunch, and some pasta & beans for dinner. If that was my food intake for the day, I'd be ready to kill somebody.

Me too. And believe me, I am rarely hungry. :)

[HejiraNYC]

I've attempted vegetarianism once or twice, and never lasted a day. Do you just get used to being hungry all the time? I can't understand these people who have a cup of yogurt for breakfast, a salad for lunch, and some pasta & beans for dinner. If that was my food intake for the day, I'd be ready to kill somebody.

That's the 'Skinny Manhattan Bitch' diet. I hate to stereotype, but I see them shopping at the market across the street all the time: tall, skinny, very well put together, probably working in fashion, P.R. or media, 30-something. Without fail, in their shopping cart they have the following items: fat free or Greek yogurt, mini-Baby-bel cheese, coffee, bottled water and some kind of pre-packaged little meal for the editrix-in-training. There's no nutrition or fiber in any of this stuff. Who knows... maybe they know something. :shrug:

If you are hungry all the time, you don't know what you're doing. I would just advise doing some research before you ever decide to try it again. I don't think of vegetarianism as "can't eat" as much as it makes me consider all of the things that I "can eat" that I've never tried before. That being said, admittedly you will probably snack more often than you are used to. When I don't have a structured day, I tend to just eat whatever/whenever I feel like it; I generally don't like defined meal periods. Also, you're not going to survive on salads three times a day. There are tons of hearty, filling rich options as well. Once you're used to it, it take no thought or effort at all.

[HejiraNYC]

I may have you beat. We had a "meat man" that would come to the house and sell meat to my mother. She would have her order ready and he would fill up our meat freezer in the basement. I remember that I loved bacon. And actually pork chops, too. I didn't give up eating meat because I hated the taste, that's for sure.

Then why did you give it up? I did it because I was a bored college student on summer break, and I wanted to try it as an experiment. It happened very spontaneously/organically; it's not like I sat down one night and had my "final supper." One morning I woke up and just decided to go with it; I never looked back.

[chriskisn]

I've attempted vegetarianism once or twice, and never lasted a day. Do you just get used to being hungry all the time? I can't understand these people who have a cup of yogurt for breakfast, a salad for lunch, and some pasta & beans for dinner. If that was my food intake for the day, I'd be ready to kill somebody.

Well I'm a 245lb vegetarian. The general manager said to me the other day "aren't vegetarians supposed to be pale and skinny?" :lol:

I have a vegetarian friend that I used to work with when I was a meat eater. I used to tell her that I liked eating meat too much to ever become a vegetarian. She used to rant at me about rennet all the time whenever I would eat cheese and I would make fun of her about it.

Then one day my wife and I sat down and had a serious discussion, decided to stop eating meat and that was over two years ago.

When I reconnected with the friend a year or so back, she almost died of shock when I told her I had stopped eating meat.

There is a huge variety of food available to the vegetarian. I hate salad too though don't worry, even though my wife does try to get me to eat it during summer.

[chriskisn]

I accidentally ate a bite of regular chicken salad last month and seriously almost vomited. I had no idea that chicken tasted so, <i>chicken-ey</i>!


I know. At Christmas I accidentally ate a cheese and bacon ball (kind of a potato chip) before I realised that it wasn't just a plain old cheese ball. I almost vomited at the bacon taste and believe me I used to love bacon.

[markolas]

That's the 'Skinny Manhattan Bitch' diet. I hate to stereotype, but I see them shopping at the market across the street all the time: tall, skinny, very well put together, probably working in fashion, P.R. or media, 30-something.

That's why they're bitchy - they're hungry!

And they eat like that because they're probably on some type of amphetamine, and have no appetite...you have to be on some kind of speed or coke or something to be able to do those kinds of jobs.

And no, I had no idea what I was doing when I tried going vegetarian. lol

Although, I forgot that I did manage it once for a week (and will again later this summer), but that was because I was on a retreat and didn't have a choice - all the meals were vegetarian. A lot of food was prepared, but none of it was very filling, and some of it - like miso soup - was downright disgusting. Generally, I'm of the opinion that anything can be made palatable if you put enough salt on it, but there wasn't even any of that available. So I went through the whole week just being kinda tired all the time, and a little bit cranky.

I have a very American palate, I'm afraid.

[markolas]

I hate salad too though don't worry, even though my wife does try to get me to eat it during summer.

Well, I do like salad - provided it's got ample amounts of Parmesan cheese, Caesar dressing, and croutons.

[jannieC]

Then why did you give it up? I did it because I was a bored college student on summer break, and I wanted to try it as an experiment. It happened very spontaneously/organically; it's not like I sat down one night and had my "final supper." One morning I woke up and just decided to go with it; I never looked back.

It's kind of a long story, but briefly: my best friend was a vegetarian and she was quite an influential person in my life at that time. I think it was in 1990 that I began to eliminate meat from my diet. The first five years, I waffled back and forth a bit. I would go one year, then eat meat for six months, and so on. At some point, I read the book Diet for a Gentle World and never had another bite of meat thereafter (with the exception of the chicken salad debacle).

[KarmaContestant]

I've attempted vegetarianism once or twice, and never lasted a day. Do you just get used to being hungry all the time? I can't understand these people who have a cup of yogurt for breakfast, a salad for lunch, and some pasta & beans for dinner. If that was my food intake for the day, I'd be ready to kill somebody.

I think it's funny how people will ask what I eat, or even funnier is when they ask 'how' I eat as a vegetarian. "WHAT?!?! You don't eat meat? How in the world do you eat, child?" There's a common misconception that vegetarians eat iceberg lettuce for every meal, and gosh that couldn't be further from the truth.

I love food, and I love to eat. I love cooking, and growing my own food, and shopping for food. I do shop at Whole Foods for some things; there's this amazing bread they make called Seeduction. I go there for parsley roots, or celery roots since other stores don't often sell them. Most importantly, I buy eggs at Whole Foods because it's the only market in Denver where I can buy eggs that are Certified Humane. Free-range and cage-free don't really mean that much if the chickens are not allowed to engage in natural chicken behavior, outdoors, unrestrained, and that's what the Humane certification is for.

I am not vegan, and it's not a very realistic diet for me. I don't know know how some vegans do it, but kudos to those who are able. I love cheese and eggs, and honey as well. I do cook with real butter, not that factory made oil-based butter-like-product, though usually I use olive or peanut oil. One friend of mine even excludes yeast from her vegan diet - I couldn't be happy without beer and bread!

Breakfast for me might be a bagel sandwich with egg and cheese, and maybe some sprouts; or steel-cut oats and yogurt with fruit and toast, fig jam and butter. I love Mexican and Italian foods, and there are so many vegetarian options in both of those cuisines. Denver has some rocking mexican restaurants that are very conscience of vegetarian patrons (we are the capital of the healthiest state in the country, and food is a huge part of that). Just last night I had chili rellenos with cheese enchiladas and a tostada piled with avocado and tomato. So good -

Indian food is a favorite as well, and vegetarian options are always on the menu. I enjoy other Asian foods as well, especially vegetarian sushi. I do not eat tofu - ever - and I do not eat those Boca or Morningstar pretend-meat products. I do in fact try to avoid soy products in general. I like food, not 'food-products'. :laugh: I used to eat a lot of the pretend-meat, but after two weeks in Europe without them it was amazing how much better I felt. I decided they weren't right for me, and so out they went along with the soy mochas and lattes. Just black coffee these days.

It's very easy to eat hearty, homestyle, filling meals that are completely vegetarian - I like to make pot-pie by simmering root vegetables with peas and corn in the crock pot all day, then I add butter and flour and make a thick gravy with the broth, pour it all into a pie shell, cover with crust and bake it. Or stuffing with leeks and pecans, meatless lasagna, macaroni & cheese made with smoked gouda and baked with broccoli and asparagus in it - or even better meatless shepherds pie! Delicious! Stuffed peppers with lentils, quinoa and black beans, or even tacos. I dry-fry cooked rice and add black beans, then season it with taco seasoning and use it in place of meat filling. Fajitas made with aparagus, peppers and yellow squash are great! Cooking vegetarian just takes a little creativity and maybe some research in a cookbook or two.

There's a brewpub (Denver is also known for the 300+ beers brewed in the area) near my house that specializes in vegetarian food where I go for grilled cheese sandwiches, with avocado and tomato, served with fries. French fries cooked in olive oil are amazing - they taste like potatoes instead of tasting like "fried". :nod:

As for junk food, I do eat it but sparingly. If someone brings doughnuts to the office, I'll have one. No guilt involved. I make cookies, and pies. I love sweets, ice cream is a favorite but usually for me sweets means fresh pineapple or oranges. Or blueberries by the pint. I can't get enough blueberries. I could eat them by the handful all day. Grapes, too.

There's no reason to be hungry just because you're not eating meat!

And if I do eat a salad as a meal, you can bet it's going to be huge, 4-5 cups of greens and then of course carrots, onions, cucumbers, peppers, tomatoes, olives, feta cheese and a good quantity of balsamic vinaigrette. Colorful food is healthier food.

And for the record, I'm 6'1" and 172 pounds.

[HomerMcvie]

Dear Bacon,
Don't listen to these bitter bitches. Daddy still loves you.
Homie

I'll admit, I've always been confused by all the terminology. Vegetarian vs vegan, vs ovo-lacto......
http://www.vegetarianvegan.com/Vegan_Vs_Vegetarian.html
I can claim semi-vegetarian, about 4 days a week(yes, I know it's not a daily classification). That's about the best I can do. Like I said, I only eat red meat, once every week or two. But my palate CRAVES tuna, bacon, chicken, and fish. I didn't include tuna as fish, because I mean tuna salad. I make a mean tuna salad!

[camchristo]

I gave up red meat and pork about 17 years ago and I don't miss it one bit. I thought I would, but I don't. As a kid, I always remember not liking red meat. My mom cooked dinner every night with meat, a starch and vegetables and I was never a fan of the meat.

I do eat chicken, turkey and fish on occasion. Fish more than chicken or turkey. I do think I could give up chicken and turkey and not miss it - and I plan to do so. However, I don't plan on giving up fish. I really enjoy all kinds of seafood. The majority of my diet consists of vegetables, fruits, beans, grains, eggs and dairy. I love the meat substitues/soy-based products as well. I don't like the ones that are trying to be a burger though, aka, Boca Burger. I like the ones that are not trying to be something they aren't. Like black bean burgers or chick pea patties. I love falafel, tofu, tempeh. I love all kinds of veggies. I eat a lot of black beans. They are very hearty and filling. I love salads but not with iceberg lettuce. I like dark leafy greens, spring mix, etc.

I love food and I love to eat. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. I guess I make the distinction between red meat/pork and chicken/turkey/fish based on health reasons. I feel that lean meat and fish is healthier and I eat them in moderation. Also, I can't stand the thought of eating other mammals. I see the trucks go by with the pigs in them and it makes me sad. I don't preach to others about what they should and should not eat because I know whatever I say is not going to change anyone's mind.

Karma, your cooking sounds delicious. I'm going to try the rice/blackbean taco filling. Yum!

[KarmaContestant]

Karma, your cooking sounds delicious. I'm going to try the rice/blackbean taco filling. Yum!

Aw, thanks. :) If you use premade taco seasoning, I suggest starting with about half of the packet at first and all of the recommended water and add more seasoning to suit your taste as you go. The water cooks off, but makes it easier to get it all mixed in.

[louielouie2000]

I was flipping channels just now and saw something that made me think of this thread. I saw a small child with a gun standing over a dead deer, and the voiceover was the child's Dad preening over his son, and I quote:

"harvesting his first animal."

:lol:

Like deer spring up out of the ground and you simply pick them when they're ripe. :p I don't care whether people eat meat or not (I eat meat personally and have no qualms with it), but I thought the self-assured imagery the Dad used on that TV program was just absurd. :rolleyes:

[HomerMcvie]

Driving home, a few days ago, about 1/2 mile from my house, I looked off into the sunset, and noticed this guy, with a rifle slung over his shoulder...he was standing over a huge Buck that he'd just shot. It's rack was probably the largest I've ever seen.
And while I hate deer, and find them to be giant, destructive rodents, my heart still kind of sank, just thinking about it being shot and killed.

JTIS

[bucklind17]

I understand and respect people who choose to be vegetarians but I never understood the need for having "fake" versions of meat products. If you're not going to eat turkey, why would need tofurkey? If you're not going to eat hot dogs, what is the purpose of a tofudog? This is a genuine question, it's something that always perplexed me, the idea of eating fake versions of things that you don't want to eat the real version of.

I personally could never be a vegetarian. I wouldn't say I crave meat, but I do have a sort of dependence on it that affects my mood and overall how I feel if I hadn't had it in awhile. But this happens with vegetables too, if I don't eat enough green vegetables in a certain amount of time, I start feeling crummy and cranky. So it must just be how I'm wired at this point.

[ButterCookie]

I understand and respect people who choose to be vegetarians but I never understood the need for having "fake" versions of meat products. If you're not going to eat turkey, why would need tofurkey? If you're not going to eat hot dogs, what is the purpose of a tofudog? This is a genuine question, it's something that always perplexed me, the idea of eating fake versions of things that you don't want to eat the real version of.

I personally could never be a vegetarian. I wouldn't say I crave meat, but I do have a sort of dependence on it that affects my mood and overall how I feel if I hadn't had it in awhile. But this happens with vegetables too, if I don't eat enough green vegetables in a certain amount of time, I start feeling crummy and cranky. So it must just be how I'm wired at this point.

I've been asked about the first quite a lot. I've only recently cut meat (bar fish) out of my diet because I've reached the age where I can cook for myself etc and therefore can choose my own meals. I like the taste of Quorn because it's not anything like Meat. Simple as that. I really don't think you can replicate the taste of it and I'm glad :lol:

I marinade my Tofu in sauces like sweet and sour or oyster so that it takes on that flavour rather than that of meat. But, I prefer meals without either Tofu or Quorn, I just find I'm much more full after those two.

I'm the exact opposite to you, which I find weird but kinda interesting. I used to be lazy, unmotivated and have terrible skin. Now that I've cut most meat out of my diet I've got more energy, more focus and a vastly improved complexion.

Damn, we're a weird species :laugh:

[chriskisn]

I understand and respect people who choose to be vegetarians but I never understood the need for having "fake" versions of meat products. If you're not going to eat turkey, why would need tofurkey? If you're not going to eat hot dogs, what is the purpose of a tofudog? This is a genuine question, it's something that always perplexed me, the idea of eating fake versions of things that you don't want to eat the real version of.


Basically the reason I eat products such as Quorn is because they are easy to use. Rather than spending an hour after work cooking a meal, I can just throw a couple of pies/pasties/schnitzels/whatever in the oven while taking the dog for a walk. Vegetarians can be lazy just like meat eaters.

Plus, just because I don't want to eat animals doesn't mean I don't want to eat a burger, a pie, a sausage roll, hot dog, etc. Quorn sausages are still good for BBQs, they just don't contain dead cow or dead pig. :shrug:

Not so sure why you actually need a tofurkey though...never had one.

[holidayroad]

I've been an ovo-lacto vegetarian for about 11 years. Even before that, from age 14-25, I rarely ate meat.
I respect that others still enjoy meat. The hard part for me is that my husband and son do eat meat, so I still have to purchase and prepare it. I hate handling raw meat.
The good part is that they respect my choices and don't do things like try to sneak meat into something I'm eating. I've had that happen before!

[jannieC]

I understand and respect people who choose to be vegetarians but I never understood the need for having "fake" versions of meat products. If you're not going to eat turkey, why would need tofurkey? If you're not going to eat hot dogs, what is the purpose of a tofudog? This is a genuine question, it's something that always perplexed me, the idea of eating fake versions of things that you don't want to eat the real version of.

I personally could never be a vegetarian. I wouldn't say I crave meat, but I do have a sort of dependence on it that affects my mood and overall how I feel if I hadn't had it in awhile. But this happens with vegetables too, if I don't eat enough green vegetables in a certain amount of time, I start feeling crummy and cranky. So it must just be how I'm wired at this point.

I like sliced tofurkey because I like to eat sandwiches. I also like to use some non meat things in my recipes for either the consistency or flavor. I use <a href="http://www.fieldroast.com/products.htm">these</a> for stews, along with vegetables and potatoes. I use the "sausage" crumbles in my chili for both flavor AND consistency. I also like to make "chicken" and rice with soy nuggets from Earth Fare. Come to think of it, I will occasionally eat a tofudog! The reason is that I do like the flavor of a soydog with mustard and sauerkraut without worrying about biting into a vein, but that's just me!:D

A lot of fake meat items are high in salt, so I try to limit the amount we eat.

[fringed n fab]

Key West, Mmmm. :)

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/9049/keywest.jpg

[David]

Isn't it sweltering & humid in Key West?

I'm not a baby spider!!

[HomerMcvie]

tofudog! The reason is that I do like the flavor of a soydog with mustard and sauerkraut without worrying about biting into a vein, but that's just me!:

I have yet, to see a hotdog with a vein!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[KarmaContestant]

I have yet, to see a hotdog with a vein!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


Where's the throw-up smiley when it's needed?

[jannieC]

Where's the throw-up smiley when it's needed?

Ha- sorry. Hot dog "veins" would be in theory anyway. If there were any veins they would have been totally mashed up and mixed in with all of the other mechanically separated meats. :woohoo:

[KarmaContestant]

Ha- sorry. Hot dog "veins" would be in theory anyway. If there were any veins they would have been totally mashed up and mixed in with all of the other mechanically separated meats. :woohoo:

If you look *really* hard, you can see the little pieces mashed together. It's quite disgusting.

[fringed n fab]

Isn't it sweltering & humid in Key West?

I'm not a baby spider!!

It's only March and was maybe upper 70's lower 80's driving down there that day. Even in the heat of Summer I've heard the Keys stay cooler than the mainland and not too bad. I've had to run the air a few times this past month because it was above 80 but humid feeling. The Summer heat is coming but so are the afternoon rains to cool it down some for a bit. I'm fascinated by the lightning and thunderstorms down here in Summer, it's the hurricanes I'm afraid of. :shocked:

[chriskisn]

Ha- sorry. Hot dog "veins" would be in theory anyway. If there were any veins they would have been totally mashed up and mixed in with all of the other mechanically separated meats. :woohoo:

I remember reading something about research done into the contents of the average meat pie (very popular in Australia). The "meat" often came from hooves, udders, penises, ears, snouts, etc. I was a meat eater back then, but it made me look twice at a pie from then on...

[CreepingDeath]

I remember reading something about research done into the contents of the average meat pie (very popular in Australia). The "meat" often came from hooves, udders, penises, ears, snouts, etc. I was a meat eater back then, but it made me look twice at a pie from then on...

Penises. :lol:

[KarmaContestant]

Regarding eggs:

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/confinement_farm/facts/guide_egg_labels.html

Egg Carton Labels
A brief guide to labels and animal welfare

The Humane Society of the United States

The vast number of consumer labels affixed to egg cartons can leave a shopper feeling dazed and confused. One carton may label its eggs "Natural." Another carton may call them "Free Range," while yet another may claim its eggs are "Certified Organic." How are thoughtful consumers supposed to know what these labels and claims really mean?

The truth is that the majority of egg labels have little relevance to animal welfare or, if they do, they have no official standards or any mechanism to enforce them.

The Labels†

Certified Organic: The birds are uncaged inside barns or warehouses, and are required to have outdoor access, but the amount, duration, and quality of outdoor access is undefined. They are fed an organic, all-vegetarian diet free of antibiotics and pesticides, as required by the U.S. Department of Agriculture's National Organic Program. Beak cutting and forced molting through starvation are permitted. Compliance is verified through third-party auditing.

Free-Range: While the USDA has defined the meaning of "free-range" for some poultry products, there are no standards in "free-range" egg production. Typically, free-range hens are uncaged inside barns or warehouses and have some degree of outdoor access, but there are no requirements for the amount, duration or quality of outdoor access. Since they are not caged, they can engage in many natural behaviors such as nesting and foraging. There are no restrictions regarding what the birds can be fed. Beak cutting and forced molting through starvation are permitted. There is no third-party auditing.

Certified Humane: The birds are uncaged inside barns or warehouses but may be kept indoors at all times. They must be able to perform natural behaviors such as nesting, perching, and dust bathing. There are requirements for stocking density and number of perches and nesting boxes. Forced molting through starvation is prohibited, but beak cutting is allowed. Compliance is verified through third-party auditing. Certified Humane is a program of Humane Farm Animal Care.

Animal Welfare Approved: The highest animal welfare standards of any third-party auditiing program. However, there are no participating producers that sell to supermarkets. The birds are cage-free and continuous outdoor perching access is required. They must be able to perform natural behaviors such as nesting, perching and dust bathing. There are requirements for stocking density, perching, space and nesting boxes. Birds must be allowed to molt naturally. Beak cutting is prohibited. Animal Welfare Approved is a program of the Animal Welfare Institute.

American Humane Certified: This label allows both cage confinement and cage-free systems. Each animal who is confined in these so-called "furnished cages" has about the space of a legal-sized sheet of paper. An abundance of scientific evidence demonstrates that these cages are detrimental to animal welfare, and they are opposed by nearly every major US and EU animal welfare group. Forced molting through starvation is prohibited, but beak cutting is allowed. Compliance is verified through third-party auditing. American Humane Certified is a program of American Humane Association.

Cage-Free: As the term implies, hens laying eggs labeled as "cage-free" are uncaged inside barns or warehouses, but they generally do not have access to the outdoors. They can engage in many of their natural behaviors such as walking, nesting and spreading their wings. Beak cutting is permitted. There is no third-party auditing.

Free-Roaming: Also known as "free-range," the USDA has defined this claim for some poultry products, but there are no standards in "free-roaming" egg production. This essentially means the hens are cage-free. There is no third-party auditing.

Food Alliance Certified: The birds are cage-free and access to outdoors or natural daylight is required. They must be able to perform natural behaviors such as nesting, perching and dust bathing. There are specific requirements for stocking density, perching, space and nesting boxes. Starvation-based molting is prohibited. Beak cutting is allowed. Compliance is verified through third-party auditing. Food Alliance Certified is a program of the Food Alliance.

United Egg Producers Certified: The overwhelming majority of the U.S. egg industry complies with this voluntary program, which permits routine cruel and inhumane factory farm practices. Hens laying these eggs have 67 square inches of cage space per bird, less area than a sheet of paper. The hens are confined in restrictive, barren battery cages and cannot perform many of their natural behaviors, including perching, nesting, foraging or even spreading their wings. Compliance is verified through third-party auditing. Forced molting through starvation is prohibited, but beak cutting is allowed. This is a program of the United Egg Producers.

Vegetarian-Fed: These birds' feed does not contain animal byproducts, but this label does not have significant relevance to the animals' living conditions.

Natural: This label claim has no relevance to animal welfare.

Fertile: These eggs were laid by hens who lived with roosters, meaning they most likely were not caged.

Omega-3 Enriched: This label claim has no relevance to animal welfare.


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†Virtually all hens in commercial egg operations—whether cage or cage-free—come from hatcheries that kill all male chicks shortly after hatching. The males are of no use to the egg industry because they don't lay eggs and aren't bred to grow as large or as rapidly as chickens used in the meat industry. Common methods of killing male chicks include suffocation, gassing and grinding. Hundreds of millions of male chicks are killed at hatcheries each year in the United States.

Updated October 2010