Which Christine McVie song from Tusk is your favorite? [Archive]

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vivfox

03-09-2010, 11:25 AM

BROWN EYES.

This thread was inspired by the other thread titled Tusk: pick 12 songs to make the album. I've noticed Christine's songs have the least representation, so I'm curious which one you like the best.

bluefox4000

03-09-2010, 12:08 PM

Think about me, Followed by Over and Over As i said in the other thread I feel Tusk is her weakest album. Always felt that way.:shrug:

Mick

David

03-09-2010, 12:10 PM

Honey Hi, probably. What a charmer, I always thought. No other megaband of the late '70s presented itself (at least on occasion) with such freshness & simplicity, such unassuming romanticism.

In tracks like this, Fleetwood Mac pioneered a New American Pop, akin to the New American Cinema of Scorsese, Altman, Ashby, & De Palma earlier in the decade.

ButterCookie

03-09-2010, 12:24 PM

I love this thread :D

Brown Eyes is my favourite too :blob1:

MikeVielhaber

03-09-2010, 01:01 PM

Probably Think About Me. I like them all though.

Sleepless-Child

03-09-2010, 01:47 PM

That's too hard. Brown Eyes was immediately a favorite when I first listened to Tusk, but then, my love for Honey Hi and Over and Over grew A LOT.
I can't choose between those 3 amazing songs, and I definitely like the whole Chris contribution on Tusk, I think it's really different from what she's done on other albums.

chiliD

03-09-2010, 01:57 PM

"Brown Eyes" (because it has a Bob Welch feel and Peter Green playing guitar on it)

"Honey Hi" is a VERY close second.

michelej1

03-09-2010, 01:58 PM

Honey Hi, probably. What a charmer, I always thought. No other megaband of the late '70s presented itself (at least on occasion) with such freshness & simplicity, such unassuming romanticism.

Very nice showcase for both Mick and Christine and beautifully woven into the album's theme of tribal beats. This and "Never Forget" would be my 2nd and third favorites of hers from this album. Think About Me is #1.

Michele

Gailh

03-09-2010, 02:09 PM

Brown Eyes. Sexiest FM song ever

Gail

tilthefirefades

03-09-2010, 02:14 PM

Think About Me is my favorite, followed by Never Forget and Brown Eyes.

holidayroad

03-09-2010, 02:24 PM

I go for Brown Eyes. Really when I wrote out my Tusk list, I didn't realize I was leaving out so many of Christine's songs. To me, I was thinking about songs that 'make' the album, and the songs by Christine could have been on any album, not just Tusk. (Does that make sense?)

michelej1

03-09-2010, 02:32 PM

Article in Pop Matters by Alfred Soto, http://www.popmatters.com/pm/feature/121168-christine-mcvies-warm-ways/

Christine McVie’s Warm Ways
[9 March 2010]

My favorite Christine McVie song isn’t on Tusk. Sandwiched between two bits of exemplary crunch-pop on Fleetwood Mac’s eponymous 1975 American breakthrough, “Warm Ways” lives up to its title and then some. Over Lindsey Buckingham’s strummed acoustic, a John McVie bass line as plush as a comforter, and her own Fender Rhodes, McVie’s contralto radiates the heat of someone who enjoyed hours of incredible sex and can’t wait for the next round. But the music is wistful. The layers of gratitude McVie’s voice folds into the line “You made me a woman tonight” suggest a woman awake to erotic possibilities undreamt of twelve hours earlier.

Gratitude is a virtue too little expressed or written about in pop music, a genre comfortable with means rather than ends, and the twaddle of post-relationship analysis. As adults, though, we’re less interested in appearances, alert to the nuances of shrinking possibilities, and grownup emotions are McVie’s specialty. Her talent blurs the line between gratitude and rue. As a woman who’s been burned, she’s wary of passion, so when she surrenders we feel a special thrill even when we want to protect her. In song after song on Fleetwood Mac and Rumours—“Over My Head”, “Oh Daddy”, “You Make Lovin’ Fun”—McVie reminds me of what Anthony Miccio said about her: “It’s like seeing your stressed-out but faithful and kind friend find somebody who treats them right.” Listen to the joy as she sings the title line in “You Make Loving Fun” while the song fades. It’s surprising, it’s all encompassing, it’s earned.

There’s joy in Tusk alright; a curdled joy, remembrances of joy past. If the apocrypha is true—McVie, divorced from husband John, had shacked up with former Beach Boy Dennis Wilson—then neither adventure satisfied McVie, and, given the fact that we’re talking about Wilson and John McVie, she’s lucky her lovers could last an hour (“Never Make Me Cry” and “Over and Over” evoke the bleary wine-soaked despair of “Holocaust”-era Big Star). Because we expect normality from McVie, producer-guitarist Buckingham lavishes special attention on her songs until his filigrees coax their conventional skeletons into novel shapes. When she chooses to rock on “Think About Me”, for example, there’s a note of hysteria, startling but welcome, like a lover experimenting with a new position.

That’s Buckingham’s game on Tusk: he gussies up McVie’s tunes in the same way that Douglas Sirk imposed so many distancing devices and subtext on visual kitsch; it leaves us a bit unsettled. We may not recognize the person at first, but the transformation isn’t such that we doubt she’s incapable of it. The one member in Fleetwood Mac who sounds like a real person becomes the most natural conveyor of Buckingham’s vision. He and McVie toy with our expectations from the start, albeit mildly—like the decision to lead with a McVie ballad instead of a Buckingham rocker. Superficially, “Over and Over” isn’t much different from “Warm Ways” or “Songbird”: another in-the-pocket groove, with special thanks to Mick Fleetwood’s drum flourish at the four-minute mark; a mournful synthesizer pokes its head from beneath the twinkle of Buckingham’s acoustic and electric guitars; and a lyric that verges on incoherence, with McVie refusing to negotiate the differences. Her desolate vocals sound like she intends the title to stand for romantic masochism instead of an ode to or demand for great sex. Not that incoherence couldn’t signify on its own, but the song’s languid pace pushes her into a contemplative state we’re not used to hearing from this most sensual of singers.

There’s joy in Tusk alright; a curdled joy, remembrances of joy past. If the apocrypha is true—McVie, divorced from husband John, had shacked up with former Beach Boy Dennis Wilson—then neither adventure satisfied McVie, and, given the fact that we’re talking about Wilson and John McVie, she’s lucky her lovers could last an hour (“Never Make Me Cry” and “Over and Over” evoke the bleary wine-soaked despair of “Holocaust”-era Big Star). Because we expect normality from McVie, producer-guitarist Buckingham lavishes special attention on her songs until his filigrees coax their conventional skeletons into novel shapes. When she chooses to rock on “Think About Me”, for example, there’s a note of hysteria, startling but welcome, like a lover experimenting with a new position.

That’s Buckingham’s game on Tusk: he gussies up McVie’s tunes in the same way that Douglas Sirk imposed so many distancing devices and subtext on visual kitsch; it leaves us a bit unsettled. We may not recognize the person at first, but the transformation isn’t such that we doubt she’s incapable of it. The one member in Fleetwood Mac who sounds like a real person becomes the most natural conveyor of Buckingham’s vision. He and McVie toy with our expectations from the start, albeit mildly—like the decision to lead with a McVie ballad instead of a Buckingham rocker. Superficially, “Over and Over” isn’t much different from “Warm Ways” or “Songbird”: another in-the-pocket groove, with special thanks to Mick Fleetwood’s drum flourish at the four-minute mark; a mournful synthesizer pokes its head from beneath the twinkle of Buckingham’s acoustic and electric guitars; and a lyric that verges on incoherence, with McVie refusing to negotiate the differences. Her desolate vocals sound like she intends the title to stand for romantic masochism instead of an ode to or demand for great sex. Not that incoherence couldn’t signify on its own, but the song’s languid pace pushes her into a contemplative state we’re not used to hearing from this most sensual of singers.

Let’s return to the sequencing, which on Tusk matters even more aesthetically than on Rumours. If the songs on the latter were supposed to be “conversations” between the errant lovers in the band, then on Tusk the conversations have dissipated into arguments by people tired of repeating themselves. The sequencing plays tricks with our understanding of the intraband melodrama: with Stevie Nicks edging closer to a leather and lacy self-regard, as if she’s on vacation in Emerald City, McVie sounds like she wants in on Buckingham. His “The Ledge”, a demented sequel to “Go Your Own Way”, follows “Over and Over”. McVie’s “Never Forget” is a return to the husky-voiced lust of “Say You Love Me”, but it succeeds the title track “Tusk”, whose chorus is, of course, “Don’t say that you love me”.

Although Nicks’s “Sara” gets the most radical production treatment, “Think About Me” is the unlikeliest of things: a McVie rocker. Anchored by her electric piano, Buckingham’s fuzzed-up “Day Tripper”-esque riff, and the most sarcastic lyrics of McVie’s career (“I don’t hold you down / Maybe that’s why you’re around”—yay, Christine!), “Think About Me” accepts the gauntlet thrown down by “The Ledge”. Through guitars that sound like they’re screeching through several layers of mud and silt, McVie gets to play make-believe with Nicks’s top hat and onstage twirling. It makes perfect sense that while Gang of Four and Wire scored no American hits in 1980, “Think About Me” peaked in the top 20: a near-perfect punk number that snuck in below the radar. Jukeboxes across the land probably had copies of the single version, which is even faster and treblier (now found on the 2002 compilation The Very Best of Fleetwood Mac).

When reviewing Tusk for my college newspaper in 1997 at the height of Dance-mania, I complained that Buckingham “dulls McVie’s warm tenor” on “Brown Eyes”—a deliberately contrarian point of view. What’s clear now is that “Brown Eyes” and its companion track “Never Make Me Cry” are the album’s emotional centerpieces. In the relentless snare taps on the former, and the processed liquidity of the guitars on the latter, sarcasm and recriminations dissolve; the music swells and contracts, a pulse suspended between hemorrhage and arrest. Together the tracks are McVie’s “Sara”, but she’s drowning in a sea of love whose waters taste bitter, and she can’t decide whether to pretend otherwise. This is the sound of loneliness, again colored by the intimations of mature sexuality in McVie’s sobbed vocals. She can’t distinguish being undersexed from emotional rescue, which is why the unpleasant echo with which Buckingham sheathes her voice in “Never Make Me Cry” devastates. She’s hearing her own words thrown back at her, as taunts.

By comparison, the rest of her tenure in the Mac was lying in bed eating strawberries while hubby’s at work. Traces of Buckingham’s work lingered in McVie’s post-Tusk recordings, although the ever-shiner surfaces began to obscure their increasing irrelevance. She coasted on the memories of a grand passion, but rarely convinces that her new ones are worth sharing, or even measure up. Still, she rarely sang or wrote badly. “Boringly” was another story. 1982’s Mirage has “Hold Me”, one of Fleetwood Mac’s biggest hits, and probably the apogee of Buckingham’s production approach. The thing is ear candy, a sweet tart of chewy goodness filled with tinkling pianos, more fantastic McVie-Buckingham harmonizing, and what sounds like 87 guitar parts crisscrossing over the coda. The ballad “Only Over You” needs to be heard once, a total drip of a number whose title cobbles bits from earlier songs and whose chorus has the line “I’m out of my mind”, which is truer than she realized.

When reviewing Tusk for my college newspaper in 1997 at the height of Dance-mania, I complained that Buckingham “dulls McVie’s warm tenor” on “Brown Eyes”—a deliberately contrarian point of view. What’s clear now is that “Brown Eyes” and its companion track “Never Make Me Cry” are the album’s emotional centerpieces. In the relentless snare taps on the former, and the processed liquidity of the guitars on the latter, sarcasm and recriminations dissolve; the music swells and contracts, a pulse suspended between hemorrhage and arrest. Together the tracks are McVie’s “Sara”, but she’s drowning in a sea of love whose waters taste bitter, and she can’t decide whether to pretend otherwise. This is the sound of loneliness, again colored by the intimations of mature sexuality in McVie’s sobbed vocals. She can’t distinguish being undersexed from emotional rescue, which is why the unpleasant echo with which Buckingham sheathes her voice in “Never Make Me Cry” devastates. She’s hearing her own words thrown back at her, as taunts.

By comparison, the rest of her tenure in the Mac was lying in bed eating strawberries while hubby’s at work. Traces of Buckingham’s work lingered in McVie’s post-Tusk recordings, although the ever-shiner surfaces began to obscure their increasing irrelevance. She coasted on the memories of a grand passion, but rarely convinces that her new ones are worth sharing, or even measure up. Still, she rarely sang or wrote badly. “Boringly” was another story. 1982’s Mirage has “Hold Me”, one of Fleetwood Mac’s biggest hits, and probably the apogee of Buckingham’s production approach. The thing is ear candy, a sweet tart of chewy goodness filled with tinkling pianos, more fantastic McVie-Buckingham harmonizing, and what sounds like 87 guitar parts crisscrossing over the coda. The ballad “Only Over You” needs to be heard once, a total drip of a number whose title cobbles bits from earlier songs and whose chorus has the line “I’m out of my mind”, which is truer than she realized.

Recorded when the band was barely functional, Tango in the Night sounds like an alternate-universe version of 1987. When it works it is tinsel done right. Drum machines are all over the place, sure, but synthesized chimes double the guitars, and the music-box arrangements on “You and I (Part Two)” and “Everywhere” predate Bjork’s Vespertine by 15 years. Looking past two Nicks numbers that sound like she’s singing through a fourth, invisible nostril, “Little Lies” and “Everywhere” mean the most to anyone born after 1970. As the last example of an interesting collaboration in McVie World, “Little Lies” embeds a message as old as popular music itself in an arrangement whose electronic arabesques and expert use of space conjure a yearning that’s toughened by a realistic-not-cynical awareness of how even relationships need useful fictions (and the Nicks harmony in the chorus is the shrewdest hook of McVie’s career).

But in 1979 McVie didn’t stop thinking about tomorrow, although maybe Buckingham did (the next seven years would mean increased dependence on his studio wizardry to save neglible tunes). I interpret Tusk‘s last song as McVie bidding farewell to the high ship of peak-period Fleetwood Mac, and, it’s true, the band conjures a rather sunny, almost pastoral mood on “Never Forget”. As the morning sun shines into a recording studio stuffy with the smoke of last night’s cigarettes and arguments, McVie allows her voice to express the optismism she’d suppressed for 19 songs. Since this is an adult, though, she tempers the optimism with realism. “Just remember love is cold”—a reminder, not a realization. While Buckingham’s acoustic subsumes the nominal percussion, and Nicks’s harmonies shade McVie as craftily as they’ll do eight years later on “Little Lies”, McVie sounds buoyed by the support, a sweet little lie that she’s willing to disguise.

Fannymac

03-09-2010, 04:17 PM

"Over And Over", hands down!

And I think her contributions on TUSK are MUCH stronger than her stuff on TANGO IN THE NIGHT (except for "Little Lies" and "Ricky", THE greatest overlooked FM song EVER!!!) and, particularly, MIRAGE!!

chelluversu

03-09-2010, 05:23 PM

I can never pick a favorite Christine song because I love them all. I guess it's between brown eyes and over & over for tusk :nod:

David

03-09-2010, 05:36 PM

Looking past two Nicks numbers that sound like she’s singing through a fourth, invisible nostril ...

ROFLMAO!!!!!

chiliD

03-09-2010, 06:05 PM

...that sound like she’s singing through a fourth, invisible nostril...

LOL!!!

That's making the assumption that there's a VISIBLE "third"!

louielouie2000

03-09-2010, 06:20 PM

It's Brown Eyes all the way for me too! Never thought of it this way, but ChiliD is absolutely right... it has a very Bob Welch flair to it, and I too adore Bob Welch. What a sensuous, steamy song. It's so simple... but the "breathing room" in the song speaks more volumes than words or instrumentation ever could. Definitely one of FM's masterpiece songs, in my opinion.

mylittledemon

03-09-2010, 06:24 PM

Probably Never Forget or Think About Me. :thumbsup:

jaycee

03-09-2010, 07:06 PM

"Brown Eyes". The song would've been perfect enough with just the instrumentation, but we get the added beauty of Christine's vocals and the sha la las as well! Simply put, there is nothing wrong with that song - nothing about it could be improved.
(I feel like Paul Simon talking about his own song "Graceland", which he thought was perfect. Modest, to say the least! :D Although I think he said there was one line he thought might be slightly convoluted, and could've perhaps changed...)

starshine

03-09-2010, 07:45 PM

I also love Brown Eyes but the original version not the one on the Tusk remastered version....too me somethings lost sound wise too me....and I love those oooh laaa's too awesome!! than probably Over & Over....I love Tusk....great LP.....esp Stevie's songs too....:D

nailatixela

03-09-2010, 07:48 PM

I love Christine's songs on Tusk. For some reason I tend to forget about them. Not to say they are forgetable - but some are kind of similar. But considering Stevie had the best songs on Tusk that she has ever had on a Fleetwood Mac album, and Lindsey's attention grabbing songs, Christine gets left in the shadow. I think I need to listen to all of Christine's Tusk songs in a row to fully appericate them. With all that said, Over and Over is def my favorite of her's of Tusk, and it's one of my favorite Mac songs of all time.

StephenC

03-11-2010, 08:52 AM

I have always thought that Over and Over is a great track that has some stunning songwriter touches.

Zanobbi

03-11-2010, 09:14 AM

Brown eyes is great, but I'd say Honey Hi. I really love those harmonies.

GypsySorcerer

03-11-2010, 09:16 AM

Top three:

1) Over & Over (I adore this song)
2) Brown Eyes
3) Think About Me

I like Christine's Tusk material, although I think she was stronger on other albums.

goldustsongbird

03-11-2010, 11:52 AM

Honey Hi. It's short and sweet, which sums up Christine's attitude toward songwriting.

Andy Man

03-11-2010, 12:56 PM

Thank you so much michelej1 for posting that article. Great, great read and it sums up a lot of how Christine contributed to Fleetwood Mac

Dr. Groove

03-11-2010, 01:08 PM

Brown Eyes is definitely my favorite McVie tune on Tusk, hands down. Honey Hi and Never Forget are up there, but not nearly as good in my opinion. Honestly, I agree that McVie was a little disappointing on Tusk.

HomerMcvie

03-11-2010, 01:38 PM

Honey Hi. It's short and sweet, which sums up Christine's attitude toward songwriting.

I thought it was Homie Hi. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Think About Me would be my favorite, followed by Over and Over.

APerfectLie

03-11-2010, 03:26 PM

Never Forget, for sure.

bluefox4000

03-11-2010, 03:37 PM

I thought it was Homie Hi. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Think About Me would be my favorite, followed by Over and Over.

Lol Homie hi. That made me like the song better:laugh:

Mick

bluefox4000

03-11-2010, 03:45 PM

Currently listening to Tusk all the way through. can't get behind Chris on this album. She drags it down. Just too songs of hers I like the rest sound dull and half-baked. Sorry:shrug::shrug:

Mick

Madelow

03-11-2010, 04:07 PM

Hello all: I'm afraid I must disagree with Mick, the Blue Fox, on this subject. I think "Tusk" presents Chris at her most versatile. Catchy, up-tempo pop (Think About Me). Mix in three romantic ballads (Honey Hi, Brown Eyes, Over and Over), and you have a fine contribution. Thirty years later, the lady still sounds great! Best regards, Madelow.

jbrownsjr

03-11-2010, 05:39 PM

jbrownsjr

03-11-2010, 05:49 PM

It has always been Brown Eyes...

But now I love the vocal arrangement of Honey Hi...

yummy..

goldustsongbird

03-12-2010, 06:37 PM

I thought it was Homie Hi. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Think About Me would be my favorite, followed by Over and Over.

That's only when I sing it! Chris doesn't know any better.

HomerMcvie

03-12-2010, 06:44 PM

That's only when I sing it! Chris doesn't know any better.

She was probably drunk when she recorded it, and forgot the right words!:mad:

Meowi

03-12-2010, 07:41 PM

Brown Eyes
Certainly her most adventerous, abstract song to date :)

goldustsongbird

03-12-2010, 08:58 PM

She was probably drunk when she recorded it, and forgot the right words!:mad:

Well, remember the Tusk doc? :lol:

aleuzzi

12-19-2020, 10:45 PM

Bringing this thread back because I’ve been listening to TUSK all week and putting “Brown Eyes,” “Over and Over,” and “Never Forget” on repeat.

Her vocals on this record are exquisite.

michelej1

12-20-2020, 02:22 AM

TAM, of course.

FuzzyPlum

12-20-2020, 04:01 AM

Had Tusk on in the car for the last couple of days.
Was thinking about how Never Forget would be a great concert closer in place of Songbird. Has it never been played live?
Lovely song.

Macfan4life

12-20-2020, 06:36 AM

Had Tusk on in the car for the last couple of days.
Was thinking about how Never Forget would be a great concert closer in place of Songbird. Has it never been played live?
Lovely song.
Yes I agree. Sometimes it gets forgotten as the album closer. I would love to hear it live. It would have been so good to do in a small theater on the Buck/Vie tour.

Villavic

12-20-2020, 09:12 AM

Over & Over, closely followed by Never Make Me Cry.

TAM is the typical sound of a great single. Should be a favorite, but no; I don't know why but this song has never convinced me.

HomerMcvie

12-20-2020, 11:18 AM

TAM, of course.

You know, if I had to pick ONE FM song, that's my song forever, it would be Think About Me. I love everything about that song!

It doesn't/didn't get the love it deserved.

On Ice

12-20-2020, 02:27 PM

Hard to pick, all 6 songs are great. I would go with my all time fav of hers Over and Over but the original Brown Eyes with Peter Green and the alternate lyrics steals the show. Sublime, a perfect song.

I do agree with Homer about TAM should have been the lead single and would've been a massive hit. Her second best pop song after You Make Loving Fun.

secondhandchain

12-20-2020, 03:31 PM

She was probably drunk when she recorded it, and forgot the right words!:mad:

These threads are useless to me now. I have a bad taste in my mouth for the band, and never listen to their music anymore. I just come on here to see what they've done lately to ruin their legacy with the fans. And also to see what funny sh#t David says. lol

HomerMcvie

12-20-2020, 04:36 PM

These threads are useless to me now. I have a bad taste in my mouth for the band, and never listen to their music anymore. I just come on here to see what they've done lately to ruin their legacy with the fans. And also to see what funny sh#t David says. lol

I live in their past now. The Tom Petty's Crowded House tour is the ONLY tour I've missed since my journey began with Tusk. I had NO interest in it. $tevie's not the boss.....&%$# that old &*%$#. I've said it for decades. $tevie Nicks is the worst thing that EVER happened to FM.

Thank you my friend.:xoxo:

bwboy

12-20-2020, 05:00 PM

And another thread comes to a crashing halt. Well, it was a fun and interesting thread for a while.

HomerMcvie

12-20-2020, 05:35 PM

And another thread comes to a crashing halt. Well, it was a fun and interesting thread for a while.

There's still activity. But thanks for playing. Don't leave your shrine unattended!!!:lol:

aleuzzi

12-20-2020, 07:09 PM

ricohv

12-20-2020, 08:56 PM

Christine’s vocal on “Never Forget” is so evocative—she milks each note on the final take. “What a wonderful night to be / Stars must be my friends to shine for me...” She delivers those lines to perfection.
I totally agree! I LOOOOOVE Christine's songs on Tusk, so much so that I can't pick a favorite. So much to love. , so much subtlety: Over & Over and Brown Eyes are sheer, understated brilliance.

Macfan4life

12-21-2020, 06:12 AM

jbrownsjr

12-21-2020, 11:20 AM

Christine’s vocal on “Never Forget” is so evocative—she milks each note on the final take. “What a wonderful night to be / Stars must be my friends to shine for me...” She delivers those lines to perfection.

Yes!! And the way she says, "love is gold". Uhhh I love it so much!!!

goldustsongbird

12-21-2020, 09:56 PM

BombaySapphire3

12-21-2020, 10:22 PM

I've been listening to this album and Heroes all week. Apart from Over & Over, there isn't one bad Christine song on it. I wouldn't even go so far as to call it bad, it's just a strange opener. I like the way her songs bookend the madness that is Tusk.

Over & Over is a gorgeous song .The artistic endeavor of Tusk was to shake people's perceptions so of course it is going to have a strange opener. I have seen some people opine that Christine was the weak link on Tusk .There was no weak link on Tusk just as there was not on Rumours or the 1975 album either. Of course after this things would begin to unravel.

aleuzzi

12-21-2020, 11:48 PM

I have seen some people opine that Christine was the weak link on Tusk .There was no weak link on Tusk just as there was not on Rumours or the 1975 album either.

Agreed—there is no weak link on any of those albums. I suspect some people consider Christine’s TUSK songs weaker than her usual standard because none of her songs there has the impact of her previous four hits. But it’s an apples-oranges comparison. Her songs on TUSK, though every bit as seductive, warm and approachable as her material on FLEETWOOD MAC and RUMOURS, were produced as exquisite low-fi songs to counterpoint the rougher-edged material. It’s no accident that “The Ledge” follows “Over and Over” and “That’s Enough for Me” precedes “Brown Eyes.” The sequencing is deliberate, intended to startle through contrast. “Think About Me” is the exception: that tune, the closest thing to a typical FM hit on the record, blends cool California sophistication with crunching guitar. It’s one of the few spots on the record that synthesizes the old with the new.

Macfan4life

12-22-2020, 04:40 AM

Christine is always ready for every album. She never has any duds or "padding" as she calls it. I like some more than others but each song of hers is always good. I posted this years ago but its worth posting again. Someone created this amazing tribute to Christine with an alternative version of Never Forget

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8a3u6OfPU

greendaze5

12-22-2020, 10:02 AM

'Honey Hi' :thumbsup:

I'm really surprised Christine barely did her 'Tusk' songs on that tour. :distress:

I think 'Over and Over' and 'Think About Me' were only done at some shows, whereas Stevie and Lindsey showcased their new stuff.

Did Christine not like her new material?? I thought her 'Brown Eyes' (later done on the 1987 and 1990 tours) and 'Think About Me' were terrific.

secondhandchain

12-22-2020, 12:26 PM

How are you doing? Did you ever get your sense of smell back?

Not really. It’s very weak. I can only smell something if I put it right up to my nose and it’s been very depressing to be honest. This virus is real people. Even if you don’t die it could do long lasting damage to you. By the way I am in top physical shape and I have zero pre-existing conditions.

Macfan4life

12-22-2020, 12:50 PM

Not really. It’s very weak. I can only smell something if I put it right up to my nose and it’s been very depressing to be honest. This virus is real people. Even if you don’t die it could do long lasting damage to you. By the way I am in top physical shape and I have zero pre-existing conditions.
I hope it comes back. I hope that while very weak, it gets stronger and stronger.

**Thinking of you***

Macfan4life

12-22-2020, 12:52 PM

HomerMcvie

12-22-2020, 01:35 PM

goldustsongbird

12-22-2020, 03:43 PM

Over & Over is a gorgeous song .The artistic endeavor of Tusk was to shake people's perceptions so of course it is going to have a strange opener. I have seen some people opine that Christine was the weak link on Tusk .There was no weak link on Tusk just as there was not on Rumours or the 1975 album either. Of course after this things would begin to unravel.

Musically, I have to agree! I like the gentleness of it, the way it eases you into the album, in the same way that NMMC leads you out of it. It's just not my fave. If any one of her songs is a weak link, it would be this one, but I think they pull everything together nicely.

secondhandchain

12-23-2020, 11:26 PM

Christine doesn't have a bad song on the album IMO.

HomerMcvie

12-24-2020, 01:08 AM

Christine doesn't have a bad song on the album IMO.

I enjoy Christine's sleepers(Honey Hi and Never Forget) far more than the old goat's(Beautiful Child and Storms). Christine's are soothing.

SteveMacD

12-24-2020, 02:20 AM

Christine doesn't have a bad song on the album IMO.

Nobody does. It’s a flawless album.

Macfan4life

12-24-2020, 05:30 AM

I enjoy Christine's sleepers(Honey Hi and Never Forget) far more than the old goat's(Beautiful Child and Storms). Christine's are soothing.
(Here I go again)

Ok you don't like Oh Daddy because there is no "beat" but like Honey Hi? What about Never Make Me Cry?

I'm sorry, I cant let go of this. I will follow you down till the sound of Oh Daddy will haunt you

On Ice

12-24-2020, 08:30 AM

Throughout her long career, Christine has never written a bad ballad, all are wonderful and sung from the heart. Come to think of it, she really hasn't written a bad song even though of course, some are better than others. Far too overlooked are her wonderful songs on Time.

HomerMcvie

12-24-2020, 10:33 AM

(Here I go again)

Ok you don't like Oh Daddy because there is no "beat" but like Honey Hi? What about Never Make Me Cry?

I'm sorry, I cant let go of this. I will follow you down till the sound of Oh Daddy will haunt you

I know that you can't let it go, and that's okay(if anyone has a hard time letting things go, it's me, so I understand).:xoxo:

You know, I prefer blonds over brunettes, and both over redheads. Sometimes there's not a valid reason behind someone's taste. It just is what it is.

Ask me how I feel about goat...:lol:

aleuzzi

12-24-2020, 09:22 PM

I know that you can't let it go, and that's okay(if anyone has a hard time letting things go, it's me, so I understand).:xoxo:

You know, I prefer blonds over brunettes, and both over redheads. Sometimes there's not a valid reason behind someone's taste. It just is what it is.

Ask me how I feel about goat...:lol:

Oh Daddy is one of the best Mac songs ever. Iconic. Sorry, I can’t let this go, either....

HomerMcvie

12-24-2020, 09:27 PM

Oh Daddy is one of the best Mac songs ever. Iconic. Sorry, I can’t let this go, either....

Think About Me is my all time favorite song. Not Oh Daddy.
Ymmv.:angel:

HomerMcvie

12-24-2020, 09:30 PM

Oh Daddy is one of the best Mac songs ever. Iconic. Sorry, I can’t let this go, either....

Maybe part of it is because I hate the word daddy.

I remember being around 5 years old, and I called my Dad daddy, and he got all over me about how I was never to call him daddy. Yeah, he was an a*shole.

Maybe I hate it for reasons unknown...

Kubrick2788

12-24-2020, 09:48 PM

Over and Over in any version is always good. Unlike a lot of you...I've never been much of a Brown Eyes fan. I was hoping Over and Over might make it into a set but the US tour didn't even get Think About Me until the Classic E/W shows. Bit of a let down for me :( I'd agree with the person that said Never Forget could make a good encore. Something tells me we heard the last Songbird once that reunion tour was over.

HomerMcvie

12-24-2020, 10:33 PM

secondhandchain

12-25-2020, 03:08 AM

Nobody does. It’s a flawless album.

Yes I agree. Can’t stand the old goat now but her songs are flawless. Love Lindsay songs as well the only one I don’t like of his is That’s enough for me just because of the screaming.

aleuzzi

12-25-2020, 04:37 AM

I don't think she's able to play it anymore, and that would be a tough one to do with tracks.

Oh—if that’s the issue, no problem: these days, at any Mac show, there is an army of backup musicians filling in most of the sound anyway....

Macfan4life

12-25-2020, 09:43 AM

Maybe part of it is because I hate the word daddy.

I remember being around 5 years old, and I called my Dad daddy, and he got all over me about how I was never to call him daddy. Yeah, he was an a*shole.

Maybe I hate it for reasons unknown...
I am sorry if I unearthed deep and personal issues with the word Daddy. Its very possible that is why you hate it. Now I feel guilt and will drop the issue.

Many years ago I worked with this guy who hated pizza. I told him that he was the only person I ever met that hated pizza. The smell made him nauseous and I would repeatedly tease him when the larger group was deciding where to go for lunch when we had pizza. I found out from someone else later that his dad was a strict disciplinarian and as a child he ate some cheese that his mom bought. His dad was angry and made him eat a ton of cheese till he threw up. From that day forward the smell of cheese brought back this childhood trauma
Now I feel guilt towards you like I did to my other friend :(

HomerMcvie

12-25-2020, 11:53 AM

I am sorry if I unearthed deep and personal issues with the word Daddy. Its very possible that is why you hate it. Now I feel guilt and will drop the issue.

Many years ago I worked with this guy who hated pizza. I told him that he was the only person I ever met that hated pizza. The smell made him nauseous and I would repeatedly tease him when the larger group was deciding where to go for lunch when we had pizza. I found out from someone else later that his dad was a strict disciplinarian and as a child he ate some cheese that his mom bought. His dad was angry and made him eat a ton of cheese till he threw up. From that day forward the smell of cheese brought back this childhood trauma
Now I feel guilt towards you like I did to my other friend :(

Oh god no. Please don't stop! :xoxo:

Life deals us adversity. You either let that baggage drag you down into the gutter, or you learn how to let it go. Believe me, it's gone. I've overcome every obstacle life has ever thrown at me.

You're one of my favorite Ledgies, and I always enjoy our exchanges. Seriously. :xoxo: Happy holidays!

Man, that Oh Daddy is a snoozefest! Change my mind! :wavey:

HomerMcvie

12-25-2020, 11:56 AM

Oh—if that’s the issue, no problem: these days, at any Mac show, there is an army of backup musicians filling in most of the sound anyway....

Yeah, but that makes it an admission that she can no longer do it.

When BuckVie played Hold Me, there's virtually NO WAY she was playing the piano part. Her hands weren't moving with the notes. It was tracks. She mostly just holds organ chords these days. :shocked:

aleuzzi

12-25-2020, 01:54 PM

Yeah, but that makes it an admission that she can no longer do it.

When BuckVie played Hold Me, there's virtually NO WAY she was playing the piano part. Her hands weren't moving with the notes. It was tracks. She mostly just holds organ chords these days. :shocked:

Well, she played some Sonny Thompson-style piano in her “Songbird” Doc, and did some cool piano improv in the BuckVie doc. So, there’s no doubt she CAN still play. But it appears she’d rather farm out the task, probably due to stamina issues...

aleuzzi

12-25-2020, 01:58 PM

Man, that Oh Daddy is a snoozefest! Change my mind! :wavey:

Your mind is made up, so what’s the point? Just know that song means A LOT to some of us.

HomerMcvie

12-25-2020, 02:03 PM

Your mind is made up, so what’s the point? Just know that song means A LOT to some of us.

Because Macfan wants to stop trying to persuade me, because of a sensitive issue. It WAS a sensitive issue. It ain't now.

Think About Me is the greatest FM song of all time...
Prove me wrong.

Macfan4life

12-25-2020, 03:05 PM

Oh god no. Please don't stop! :xoxo:

Life deals us adversity. You either let that baggage drag you down into the gutter, or you learn how to let it go. Believe me, it's gone. I've overcome every obstacle life has ever thrown at me.

You're one of my favorite Ledgies, and I always enjoy our exchanges. Seriously. :xoxo: Happy holidays!

Man, that Oh Daddy is a snoozefest! Change my mind! :wavey:
Ok. Game on. I will try to change your mind. Let's remove the word Daddy and replace it with Stevie. It can be your personal note to Stevie...almost asking for forgiveness. It will make you change how you think about the song.

Oh Stevie
You know you make me cry
How can you love me
I dont understand why
Oh Stevie
If I can make you see
if there's been a fool around, its got to be me
Oh Stevie
You soothe me with your smile
You're letting me know
You're the best thing in my life
Oh Stevie
If I can make you see
If there's been a fool around
Its got to be me
Why is Macfan4life so right when I'm so wrong
I'm so weak but you're so strong
Everything you do is just alright
And I cant walk away from you
Baby if I tried

bombaysaffires

12-25-2020, 08:43 PM

HomerMcvie

12-26-2020, 01:01 AM

Ok. Game on. I will try to change your mind. Let's remove the word Daddy and replace it with Stevie. It can be your personal note to Stevie...almost asking for forgiveness. It will make you change how you think about the song.

Oh Stevie
You know you make me cry
How can you love me
I dont understand why
Oh Stevie
If I can make you see
if there's been a fool around, its got to be me
Oh Stevie
You soothe me with your smile
You're letting me know
You're the best thing in my life
Oh Stevie
If I can make you see
If there's been a fool around
Its got to be me
Why is Macfan4life so right when I'm so wrong
I'm so weak but you're so strong
Everything you do is just alright
And I cant walk away from you
Baby if I tried

Why would I want $tevie to forgive me? For not petitioning Pfizer to stop manufacturing penicillin in the 80's?
For not getting her eyeglasses earlier in her career, so $he could see how ugly Mick and Joe Walsh were?
If anything, I've been beyond kind to her. :p

Happy holidaze, y'all! :xoxo:

PS- I finally got the screen cap of the face of the..."actress" that looks like her, yesterday. I'll have to photoshop it when I get to FL for vacation tomorrow, when I have a few minutes to shrink it with ps.

HomerMcvie

12-26-2020, 01:04 AM

:laugh: Have you hit on Homer's subconscious Stevie desire here??

My only $tevie desire(these says, now that $he's a senior citizen) is to have her wait on me in a diner, where I can tell her how $he mistreated Lindsey. Then leave her a 25c tip! :lol:

vivfox

12-27-2020, 02:23 PM

Yes I agree. Can’t stand the old goat now but her songs are flawless. Love Lindsay songs as well the only one I don’t like of his is That’s enough for me just because of the screaming.

Spelling should always be checked before you tap "enter."

vivfox

12-27-2020, 02:25 PM

BROWN EYES.

Glad to see I still feel the same way in 2020 as I did in 2010 and 1979.:angel:

BombaySapphire3

12-28-2020, 01:27 AM

REALLY? REALLY???????? My niece happens to have the name Lindsay, and I type it out without thinking. You REALLY had to spend your time posting about that????? You must be such a sad, awful person.

He is actually a very long time fan and probably a decent person who has just not yet realized what a sad awful person that Stevie has become.

BombaySapphire3

12-28-2020, 09:49 AM

Sorry, who are the sad, awful people?;)

Let' s see maybe the one that had the person largely responsible for her own success and the architect of the classic lineup of Fleetwood Mac's sound unceremoniously fired from the band in their twilight years .:shrug:I can compartmentalize and still listen to the old music when they were still great and before money , fame and grandiosity really took it's toll. Like yourself and vivfox I have been a fan since the 1970s and should be able to express my disappointment .in someone that I once idolized destroying the band that she once vowed that she would never break up.

HomerMcvie

12-28-2020, 10:10 AM

Sorry, who are the sad, awful people?;)

I guess you've finished sharpening your darts for your Lindsey dart board. :distress:

jbrownsjr

12-28-2020, 04:23 PM

I know that you can't let it go, and that's okay(if anyone has a hard time letting things go, it's me, so I understand).:xoxo:

You know, I prefer blonds over brunettes, and both over redheads. Sometimes there's not a valid reason behind someone's taste. It just is what it is.

Ask me how I feel about goat...:lol:

Oh Daddy is beautifully arranged, amazing vocal, sparse/terse drums, lovely keys, lush harmonies. I'm not letting this go either. Go to the beach already and sober up. :wavey::laugh:

jbrownsjr

12-28-2020, 04:29 PM

aleuzzi

12-28-2020, 04:36 PM

Oh Daddy is beautifully arranged, amazing vocal, sparse/terse drums, lovely keys, lush harmonies. I'm not letting this go either. Go to the beach already and sober up. :wavey::laugh:

Thank you! I love that song so much. I’m protective of it.

But even in some of the contemporary reviews of RUMOURS, “Oh Daddy” and “Songbird” got attitude from people who’d come to the band through the sunny California country-tinged rock of LB/SN. One reviewer claimed “Oh Daddy” and “Songbird” recalled the “solemn bleating” of the Christine Perfect record—and intimated that Christine was only an asset on up-tempo songs. Blimey.

Macfan4life

12-28-2020, 04:42 PM

Oh Daddy is beautifully arranged, amazing vocal, sparse/terse drums, lovely keys, lush harmonies. I'm not letting this go either. Go to the beach already and sober up. :wavey::laugh:
Exactly. The lyrics and singing are ok but the musical track is just magic. It does not get any better than that especially Chris's keyboard playing at the end. Its so 70s, mystical, magical, and beautiful.

HomerMcvie

12-28-2020, 05:26 PM

jbrownsjr

12-28-2020, 09:30 PM

Exactly. The lyrics and singing are ok but the musical track is just magic. It does not get any better than that especially Chris's keyboard playing at the end. Its so 70s, mystical, magical, and beautiful.

See, I said I love you way too soon. The lyrics and vocals are amazing to me. I love the isolated track on the Rumours documentary that Ken plays. It's very haunting to me.

jbrownsjr

12-28-2020, 09:32 PM

Blah, blah, blah...

We just got back from the beach, and we're heading back for sunset. Drinks in hand!

Like Homer thru the looking glass, she used to know who she was.

Have fun Homie!! Get a nice tan!

HomerMcvie

12-28-2020, 10:29 PM

Like Homer thru the looking glass, she used to know who she was.

Have fun Homie!! Get a nice tan!

This winter sun ain't like no summer sun.:shrug: I've put in about 7 hours, and I'm not even pink! My very pale family is pink, but I'm not...

Illume, my ass! :lol:

jbrownsjr

12-28-2020, 10:41 PM

This winter sun ain't like no summer sun.:shrug: I've put in about 7 hours, and I'm not even pink! My very pale family is pink, but I'm not...

Illume, my ass! :lol:

And the burn they feel, will simply melt away

SteveMacD

12-29-2020, 11:27 PM

Let' s see maybe the one that had the person largely responsible for her own success and the architect of the classic lineup of Fleetwood Mac's sound

Without Stevie, Lindsey would have been lost, likely just a guy who used to play bass in a long forgotten band from San Francisco in the late ‘60s and brother of an Olympic swimmer or just another folky guitarist who sang like Kenny Loggins. Stevie brought harmony, stage presence, muse, and most importantly drive. Together, they had sex appeal, chemistry, and tension. She’s the one who pushed the move to Los Angeles and she’s the one who pushed to join Fleetwood Mac, by far their two biggest career moves and ones he wasn’t instinctively predisposed to make.

As far as being the architect of the classic Fleetwood Mac sound, that’s always been one of the most overblown claims ever. Lindsey didn’t have the musical vocabulary to make a legendary album without Mick, John, and Christine. All of the Brian Wilson studio gimmickry in the world would have been for not without the muscle behind the songs that the Brits brought (OOTC). He eventually realized that.

Sure, the white Fleetwood Mac album sounds noticeably better that its predecessors. Then again, they took three months to make it (compared to a week for Bare Trees) and recorded it in a big Los Angeles studio. However, it also sounds noticeably better than Buckingham Nicks. That said, it‘s not especially remarkable, just typical ‘70s. “Miracles” by Jefferson Starship was also recorded in February, 1975, for comparison, and “Black Water” by the Doobie Bros. was released in 1974. Fleetwood Mac didn’t exactly break new ground on that album.

Now, if we’re talking about Rumours, his production certainly made that album a timeless, compelling masterpiece. But, I can say that was even more true of Tusk, which wasn’t nearly as successful. The success of that album went far beyond the actual music. If we’re being honest, Lindsey’s biggest contribution to the massive *success* of Rumours was getting dumped by Stevie Nicks.

I have been a fan since the 1970s and should be able to express my disappointment .in someone that I once idolized destroying the band that she once vowed that she would never break up.
I’ve been a fan since 1987. I guess my first decade of fandom made me see this band for the freak show it was. What soap opera ever ended without one last plot twist?

michelej1

12-30-2020, 02:21 AM

SteveMacD

12-30-2020, 03:03 AM

UnwindedDreams

12-30-2020, 07:20 AM

If we’re being honest, Lindsey’s biggest contribution to the massive *success* of Rumours was getting dumped by Stevie Nicks.

What was Stevie's biggest contribution to the success of Rumours? Mick said in Play On that Stevie is not a musician, she's a vocalist.

Stevie's biggest contribution to Rumours was dumping Lindsey then because her songs were also about her/him.

Other than Stevie's high notes, what's memorable about the song "Dreams" is the guitar work. Most drummers could have come up with the introduction and beat throughout that song. Stevie contributed the clunking on the piano and the lyrics. It's their only US #1 but the only sound Stevie made for it was what she air plays with her fingers when Dreams is played live.

Gold Dust is all Lindsey with the multi guitars and Mick does very well after the Go Home note.

John is a delicious bassist for everything but the guitars stands out; that's Lindsey's sound.

The band kept Lindsey from 75-87. They didn't choose Billy and Rick Vito to do The Dance in 97 or to make an album in 2002.

They didn't perform songs from Behind the Mask in 2018 but they did Second Hand News, Monday Morning, Go Your Own Way and two Lindsey co-writes. What does that say about Billy and Rick?

jbrownsjr

12-30-2020, 09:45 AM

What was Stevie's biggest contribution to the success of Rumours? Mick said in Play On that Stevie is not a musician, she's a vocalist.

Stevie's biggest contribution to Rumours was dumping Lindsey then because her songs were also about her/him.

Other than Stevie's high notes, what's memorable about the song "Dreams" is the guitar work. Most drummers could have come up with the introduction and beat throughout that song. Stevie contributed the clunking on the piano and the lyrics. It's their only US #1 but the only sound Stevie made for it was what she air plays with her fingers when Dreams is played live.

Gold Dust is all Lindsey with the multi guitars and Mick does very well after the Go Home note.

John is a delicious bassist for everything but the guitars stands out; that's Lindsey's sound.

The band kept Lindsey from 75-87. They didn't choose Billy and Rick Vito to do The Dance in 97 or to make an album in 2002.

They didn't perform songs from Behind the Mask in 2018 but they did Second Hand News, Monday Morning, Go Your Own Way and two Lindsey co-writes. What does that say about Billy and Rick?

I think Christine gets really under-rated here. (Not to take a thing away from what Lindsey contributes)
Her keyboards on Dreams with the warm rhythmic pumping gives the song movement and a wonderful backdrop. I hear a high string part in there also that adds to the harmonies. Plus, her voices goes in and out of the forefront on the blend.

Same for the song, Gold Dust Woman. Listen to Christine's contributions to this song.

With Stevie:
It's as if I run into the room and say look everyone, I sketched some trees and mountains.
And Fleetwood Mac says, "ok, it's nice. But let's put a river here, some birds, add colours, a background, and some contrast! Also, let us edit it down to make it a picture."

elle

12-30-2020, 12:46 PM

Without Stevie, I doubt that Lindsey would’ve been “lost.” Lindsey was already in Fritz when he met Stevie. He was the one pursuing his musical aspirations already. Stevie, who was one year older, thought of herself as a poet and songstress, but she hadn’t done anything with those talents yet.

Fleetwood Mac was not the first time that Lindsey said that it’s a package deal. Even in Fritz he was the one who stood out to people in the industry. Sure, the fans may have been attracted to Stevie early on, even then. She said they all wanted to know who that mousy-haired girl was. But the music executives were not asking about her. He was the one who they wanted to give a recording contract. He dragged his girlfriend along then, too. Stevie is not the reason that they got the opportunity to do BN.

Plus, he may have been on the floor smoking hash, but he was also networking with other musical dopes smoking hash. Lindsey had friends. The money his aunt left him helped him buy nice sound equipment that kept people around him. He may never have become a star without Stevie pushing for that, but he could easily have become a player in a popular band. He would never have been Tom Petty, but he could certainly have been a Heartbreaker. Lindsey could easily have earned a handsome living as a superior guitarist and maybe have even written a couple of hits, if not GYOW.

so now I'll build on these nicely laid out facts by adding a lot of speculation and what ifs:

Lindsey invested a lot in their success early on, both time, effort and money. without Stevie, he would have been a working musician, probably a happier person for a lot of his life and while successful not nearly as cosmically / commercially huge as FM has been with both of them added in. but he would have been playing and making music, possibly produce more, and possibly play and sing in a different band. he had connections to a lot of relevant musicians at the time, and he still has tons of cred among fellow musicians.

probably without Lindsey, Stevie would have found someone else to hitch her ambition to, but that may not have worked out nearly as well and she may have ended up with a life outside music. she had tons of sex appeal and ambition. for all of their health, Stevie should have probably left FM after she first found solo success. of course, she would have not been nearly as commercial now in that case, but they could have all probably had healthier lives. well, maybe not Mick. looking back, it is actually really puzzling that Stevie came back to FM after the success of her first solo outing.

UnwindedDreams

12-30-2020, 01:33 PM

l looking back, it is actually really puzzling that Stevie came back to FM after the success of her first solo outing.
What I find interesting is that even though she had a couple of top 10 album charters... Bella Donna was her only #1 and most successful whereas Madonna and Janet had more success with subsequent albums.
She says Wild Heart was just as successful as BD but it wasn't.
I guess she just stayed around FM to sing her angelic harmony and stay in the cool kids club.

jbrownsjr

12-30-2020, 01:45 PM

What I find interesting is that even though she had a couple of top 10 album charters... Bella Donna was her only #1 and most successful whereas Madonna and Janet had more success with subsequent albums.
She says Wild Heart was just as successful as BD but it wasn't.
I guess she just stayed around FM to sing her angelic harmony and stay in the cool kids club.

Wild Heart was hot with Stand Back.. but then faded with IAF. Nightbird didn't really do all that well. I don't remember it being in the top 20.

Keep in mind, I love all these songs. And at the time, they really couldn't compete with what was going on. Music was changing. After Wild Heart it was dicey.

UnwindedDreams

12-30-2020, 01:50 PM

Wild Heart was hot with Stand Back.. but then faded with IAF. Nightbird didn't really do all that well. I don't remember it being in the top 20.

Keep in mind, I love all these songs. And at the time, they really couldn't compete with what was going on. Music was changing. After Wild Heart it was dicey.
Stevie was changing her music too. All the synths and drum machines. Maybe it was people didnt think the quality of Rock A Little or Other Side was good. Couldn't that have been?

jbrownsjr

12-30-2020, 01:52 PM

Stevie was changing her music too. All the synths and drum machines. Maybe it was people didnt think the quality of Rock A Little or Other Side was good. Couldn't that have been?

Point taken. :woohoo:

SteveMacD

12-30-2020, 04:12 PM

What was Stevie's biggest contribution to the success of Rumours? Mick said in Play On that Stevie is not a musician, she's a vocalist.
She’s a singer songwriter. She writes lyrics, chord progressions, and melodies and she’s a brilliant harmony vocalist. Stevie’s stage presence, though, is what made her indispensable back then. Even then, she was the star of the show.

Stevie's biggest contribution to Rumours was dumping Lindsey then because her songs were also about her/him.
That’s exactly my point. Everyone uncoupling was the reason for the success. It’s the freak show. It was the freak show of Lindsey leaving ten years later that boosted the sales of TITN.

Other than Stevie's high notes, what's memorable about the song "Dreams" is the guitar work.
Mick’s drums, John’s bass, and especially Christine’s keyboards are every bit as memorable as the guitars. That was the epitome of a group effort. (I still love what they did on “wrap around your dreams”).

Gold Dust is all Lindsey with the multi guitars and Mick does very well after the Go Home note.
Except that memorable bass line that seems to get cranked another 10db every tour. That’s another band effort, especially Christine’s keyboard playing.

The band kept Lindsey from 75-87. They didn't choose Billy and Rick Vito to do The Dance in 97 or to make an album in 2002.
Who cares about Billy and Rick? They weren’t in the Rumours lineup, which was the whole point of The Dance.

They didn't perform songs from Behind the Mask in 2018 but they did Second Hand News, Monday Morning, Go Your Own Way and two Lindsey co-writes. What does that say about Billy and Rick?
Who cares about Billy or Rick? Outside of maybe “Do You Know,” I can’t think of anything they brought to the table that would have worked for either Neil or Mike. I was slightly disappointed they didn’t do “Freedom,” which was an obvious choice. That said, they did two Peter Green (later three) songs, a Danny Kirwan song, a Bob Welch song (briefly), and a song from Time.

ETA: I can’t state how strongly I disagree with your notion that any drummer could do what Mick does. Mick, John, and Christine have a groove that’s never been duplicated during solo shows. Take any one of them out of the equation and the song starts to suffer. But, the terrible, amateurish version of “Rhiannon” by Buckingham Nicks is really all the evidence one needs to hear what the Brits brought to the table.

UnwindedDreams

12-30-2020, 04:53 PM

She’s a singer songwriter.
ETA: I can’t state how strongly I disagree with your notion that any drummer could do what Mick does. Mick, John, and Christine have a groove that’s never been duplicated during solo shows.

Cher, Streisand, and Sandy Stewart are singer-songwriters too.

I think the groove during the BuckVie Tour was excellent. Jimmy Paxson has a muscular rhythym. Federico is a god on bass.

You should be blessed for stating that you disagree rather than dashing out the "Who cares?" response!

I thought you were of the mindset that Billy and Rick needed to replace Lindsey for good from 87 on!

The Dance was about making money. Wouldn't they have had the same success with legendary Billy and Rick rather than useless Lindsey?

SteveMacD

12-30-2020, 06:48 PM

Cher, Streisand, and Sandy Stewart are singer-songwriters too.
And, I’m sure they would have sounded great in Fleetwood Mac...:laugh:

I thought you were of the mindset that Billy and Rick needed to replace Lindsey for good from 87 on!
If the band had been serious about reinventing itself, maybe. By the time they came into the band, it was too late for that. Billy and Rick deserve credit for joining the band and being on a tour like that in less than two months.

The Dance was about making money. Wouldn't they have had the same success with legendary Billy and Rick rather than useless Lindsey?
The Dance was about making money BY REUNITING THE CLASSIC LINEUP. It was an event about a specific entity. Just like it would have been about making money and been a major event if they had reunited with Peter Green and Jeremy Spencer (in which case, Rick might have been a suitable substitute for Danny Kirwan).

UnwindedDreams

12-30-2020, 07:00 PM

So then while planning a 1997 tour, Stubner and Kaufman saw having Lindsey in the lineup as attractive to ticketbuyers, right?

You have Stevie and Christine in the lineup for BTM Tour. Those are the two most people buy tickets to see. Not sure why they didnt choose Billy and Rick for 97.
Thousands don't buy FM tickets to see Lindsey.

Is The Classic Lineup the Rumours Lineup? Maybe it's the BTM lineup. It was a #1 album in the UK

bombaysaffires

12-30-2020, 07:36 PM

so someone keeps moving the goalposts to suit their bias.

The question of whether Lindsey could have been successful without Stevie is unquestionably yes. He had the musicianship, he certainly had the technical interest and developing skill as an engineer and producer. Stevie had NONE of these skills.

Would he have been a "star"? The better question is, Did he ever DESIRE to be a "star"? The answer is no. So, if you aren't trying your damndest to be something, well, chances are you won't become whatever that is. Did Stevie have the DESIRE to be a 'star"? You bet your a$$ she did. Was it somehow inherited from the failure of her grandfather? Maybe. Was it inherited ambition learned from her dad? Quite possibly. She didn't express that she wanted to be an "artist" she expressed her desire to be a 'STAR'. And because that was her desire, that's where she put her efforts. Why kill yourself to have the discipline to be really good as a musician (a discipline Lindsey had. Did he learn this from the incredible athletic discipline of his Olympian brother, off to the pool to practice every day at 5am? Quite possibly. Did he learn it from his own athletic endeavors? Quite possibly). Stevie's discipline was directed squarely on making herself a star. The meant putting energy into finding people whom she could leverage to achieve that goal. (As to the claim she hadn't done anything with her musical interests before LB/Fritz, not so. She had been in a 4 person musical group called The Changing Times, which she described as like a Mamas and Papas group and they performed in coffee houses and the like. She hadn't considered a "real rock band" until Fritz called, and by her own reckoning she had to think, "Can I do this?" and then says she thought about Janis Joplin and "yeah I think I could do that" and joined.)

So could Lindsey have had a successful career in music without Stevie? Sure. Maybe not front and center onstage, but certainly as a musician (which he did to support them... her bs about him "never working" to the contrary... who went off and did gigs on the road to make money? Not her, him. Who was making money before FM, such that he had to think about whether he wanted to give that up to join...him, not her). One has to be very, very cautious when only taking her version of history. She worked a DAY as a dental assistant and quit. If we want to cite Keith Olsen, she did a sh&tty job "cleaning" his house, making a big show out of it and hoping her charm would suffice over her actual cleaning skills. She waitressed, but really for how long?? She came home to "all these guys laying on the floor getting high" but what were they working on.... demo tapes that she could just show up and sing on and never put much effort into making otherwise. (And LB did take on other gigs...he tells a funny story of working-- for about a week-- as a telemarketer).

She read a letter in the Sound City film that she'd written her parents during the BN days, and in it she is complaining to her parents how tedious the hours in the studio are and how she just doesn't know how long she can stand more of it (she does also state how gifted LB is as a player). Then they join FM and every.single.one. of her interviews in those days brings up "how hard" it is to be in FM, so hard it's "like being in the army"... and why?? Because she has to "show up on time" and "there's no calling in sick" and taking time off. :eek:

Ever watch the Destiny Rules doc? Where Lindsey is alone in the studio for days and days whilst the rest of the band is off doing whatever? Even when Mick and John are there laying down tracks, Stevie mostly isn't. It's only when things are ready for her to sing on that she's there. That's one of the interesting conversations between the two of them at one point... he reminds her that he's been at the house recording every day by like 10am or whatever while they aren't.

So this idea that because Stevie can sing and flutter around onstage she would automatically be a star is hilarious. And to that end, if you take the road crew at their word, her performances on the first shows FM did before making the white album were really, really NOT good.

As much as she desired fame, and despite whatever natural talent she had, she needed OTHER people to really force her hand to be disciplined about it... and to make smart choices to have the career she's had. Before The Dance tour in a band interview when Lindsey says he drew the line at BN doing dinner theater, Stevie is right there saying how she would gladly have done cheesy dinner shows. She relied on LB's judgement on many artistic decisions, and later on Jimmy's and even Tom's... who was the one who told her if you're going to claim to be a rock and roller, play rock and roll and stop with the cheesy synth dance music. He had to push her to "write your own songs" when it got tough and she wanted him to do it for her. How many shows did she do where she sounded absolutely awful because of how high or drunk she was? ("thish ish a shtory about a welsh witchhhh"). Not very professional; but being famous and partying was more important. She admits this in her Oprah master class where she says she looks at pics/vids of herself and thinks "Did you have to always be so high?"

UnwindedDreams

12-30-2020, 07:46 PM

She's one to talk about persons laying down on the floor getting high after she was getting dangerously ****** up with cocaine. That cocaine probably did pure damage to her memory too.

michelej1

12-30-2020, 07:59 PM

Not according to Keith Olsen. He was asked to check out Fritz and encouraged Lindsey and Stevie to leave Fritz and form a duo, and he told Mick that Lindsey came as part of a duo, to which Mick asked him to convince them to join.

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Studio_Legends_Keith_Olsen

According to Stevie herself, they were interested in signing Lindsey, not her. Lindsey would not do it without her.

michelej1

12-30-2020, 08:03 PM

I would say that Stevie’s voice is remarkable. She still would’ve had that even without Fleetwood Mac and even without someone producing her music. I remember hearing her with Kenny Loggins and I did not realize it was her, but I was still attracted to her voice. That voice alone could’ve taken her somewhere.

Likewise with Gold and Magnet and Steel, I was very drawn. I did not know Lindsey was associated with them at all, but I credit his production for making those songs magical. The same with Sentimental Lady, although I do not knock the other version.

I think Lindsey could’ve been a very successful producer for other acts.

SteveMacD

12-30-2020, 08:59 PM

So then while planning a 1997 tour, Stubner and Kaufman saw having Lindsey in the lineup as attractive to ticketbuyers, right?
Except that’s not how the reunion happened.

Lindsey tanked with OOTC and Fleetwood Mac was tanking with Christine leaving the band and Bekka and Billy set to make a duo album outside of Fleetwood Mac. At the same time, the success of the Eagles and Page/Plant reunions wasn’t lost on them. Since they were both in a bad place in their careers and would have more sway with the label together, Lindsey recruited Mick to play on his next solo album. As a result, Time was DOA, getting barely any promotion and no tour.

UnwindedDreams

12-30-2020, 09:06 PM

Except that’s not how the reunion happened.

Why did they have Lindsey as part of the The Dance tour if they could have Rick and Billy play the songs Lindsey wrote on Rumours? They're more successful and well-known than Lindsey.
As long as Stevie was in the lineup, they were golden. Stevie was having a career skyrocket from 94-96, right?

So it wasn't attractive to ticketbuyers to put Lindsey in the 97 Fleetwood Mac roster?

SteveMacD

12-30-2020, 09:37 PM

As long as Stevie was in the lineup, they were golden. Stevie was having a career skyrocket from 94-96, right?
OTOH, what songs were covered Smashing Pumpkins and Hole during those years? Realistically, all Stevie needed was to quit smoking, drop some weight, and get a makeover. She could have done a special on her own, maybe with relevant artists of the day, like Dave Grohl. It probably wouldn’t have been as impactful on her career, but she had less ground to make up compared to Lindsey and the Brits. Street Angel peaked at #45, just like Go Insane.

jwd

12-30-2020, 09:37 PM

That’s exactly my point. Everyone uncoupling was the reason for the success. It’s the freak show. It was the freak show of Lindsey leaving ten years later that boosted the sales of TITN.

Lindsey leaving in 87 had nothing to do with the sales of TITN. It had everything to do with how good the album was. Especially, and mainly the tour de force that was Buckingham and McVie. Buckingham and McVie under the guise of FM and in a more potent and formidable time. Their second best selling album of all time had NOTHING to do with Lindsey leaving. Quite the opposite.

Macfan4life

12-30-2020, 09:46 PM

She’s a singer songwriter. She writes lyrics, chord progressions, and melodies and she’s a brilliant harmony vocalist. Stevie’s stage presence, though, is what made her indispensable back then. Even then, she was the star of the show.

That’s exactly my point. Everyone uncoupling was the reason for the success. It’s the freak show. It was the freak show of Lindsey leaving ten years later that boosted the sales of TITN.

Mick’s drums, John’s bass, and especially Christine’s keyboards are every bit as memorable as the guitars. That was the epitome of a group effort. (I still love what they did on “wrap around your dreams”).

Except that memorable bass line that seems to get cranked another 10db every tour. That’s another band effort, especially Christine’s keyboard playing.

Who cares about Billy and Rick? They weren’t in the Rumours lineup, which was the whole point of The Dance.

Who cares about Billy or Rick? Outside of maybe “Do You Know,” I can’t think of anything they brought to the table that would have worked for either Neil or Mike. I was slightly disappointed they didn’t do “Freedom,” which was an obvious choice. That said, they did two Peter Green (later three) songs, a Danny Kirwan song, a Bob Welch song (briefly), and a song from Time.

ETA: I can’t state how strongly I disagree with your notion that any drummer could do what Mick does. Mick, John, and Christine have a groove that’s never been duplicated during solo shows. Take any one of them out of the equation and the song starts to suffer. But, the terrible, amateurish version of “Rhiannon” by Buckingham Nicks is really all the evidence one needs to hear what the Brits brought to the table.
Lindsey leaving the band did not boost sales of Tango In The Night. You just make stuff up. Tango peaked inside the top 10 during Big Love and fell out of the top 10 after Big Love faded. Seven Wonders barely cracked the top 20 and sales went down. The third single "Little Lies" was the biggest single (highest charting) of the album. If album sales increased slightly it was because of a hit single, not because of Lindsey leaving the band. Tango was so radio friendly it should have sold far more copies than it actually did. But Lindsey leaving the band had little to do either way about album sales. When you get a big HIT song, it will make album sales spike. Lindsey left right as Little Lies was released.

BombaySapphire3

12-30-2020, 09:47 PM

Lindsey leaving in 87 had nothing to do with the sales of TITN. It had everything to do with how good the album was. Especially, and mainly the tour de force that was Buckingham and McVie. Buckingham and McVie under the guise of FM and in a more potent and formidable time. Their second best selling album of all time had NOTHING to do with Lindsey leaving. Quite the opposite.

There is no use trying . He actually believes that the chart positions of Little Lies and Everywhere on both sides of the Atlantic were significantly goosed by Lindsey leaving Fleetwood Mac.:rolleyes:

SteveMacD

12-30-2020, 09:48 PM

Lindsey leaving in 87 had nothing to do with the sales of TITN. It had everything to do with how good the album was.
LOL, keep telling yourself that. The highest charting hit was released two or three weeks after he left and it topped MTV’s Top 20 videos two weeks in a row. Yep. Nothing to do with the drama. Purely coincidental.

jwd

12-30-2020, 10:10 PM

lol, keep telling yourself that. The highest charting hit was released two or three weeks after he left and it topped mtv’s top 20 videos two weeks in a row. Yep. Nothing to do with the drama. Purely coincidental.

He was in the video! Lol! Like he never left.

UnwindedDreams

12-30-2020, 10:15 PM

OTOH, what songs were covered Smashing Pumpkins and Hole during those years? Realistically, all Stevie needed was to quit smoking, drop some weight, and get a makeover. She could have done a special on her own, maybe with relevant artists of the day, like Dave Grohl. It probably wouldn’t have been as impactful on her career, but she had less ground to make up compared to Lindsey and the Brits. Street Angel peaked at #45, just like Go Insane.

Did you know Stevie said to Lindsey that he made Landslide the song that it is? Redaction is tempting to you?

Did Rick Vito or Billy Burnette have any of their albums chart in the Top 50?

SteveMacD

12-30-2020, 10:18 PM

He was in the video! Lol! Like he never left.
Just the opposite. It felt like the video was ominous to him leaving, especially the last scene, where he fades away. Everyone knew that was the last time, at least for the foreseeable future, that we’d get a glimpse of those five together. An end of an era in a way that felt every bit as voyeuristic as a decade prior.

SteveMacD

12-30-2020, 10:22 PM

Did you know Stevie said to Lindsey that he made Landslide the song that it is? Redaction is tempting to you?
Do you think that mattered to anyone who didn’t follow the band?

Did Rick Vito or Billy Burnette have any of their albums chart in the Top 50?
No, but Crowded House and Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers did :D

jwd

12-30-2020, 10:26 PM

Just the opposite. It felt like the video was ominous to him leaving, especially the last scene, where he fades away. Everyone knew that was the last time, at least for the foreseeable future, that we’d get a glimpse of those five together. An end of an era in a way that felt every bit as voyeuristic as a decade prior.

People fell in love with "Little Lies" whether or not they saw the video. How could you not fall in love with the hooks in that song? Most people had forgotten the melodrama by then. It was the SONG!

SteveMacD

12-30-2020, 10:30 PM

People fell in love with "Little Lies" whether or not they saw the video. How could you not fall in love with the hooks in that song? Most people had forgotten the melodrama by then. It was the SONG!

Nobody forgot about the melodrama. It got mentioned almost all the time. Remember, they were starting to promote an upcoming tour without Lindsey. Not saying Little Lies isn’t a great song, but it absolutely benefited from the drama.

jwd

12-30-2020, 10:38 PM

"Little Lies" is my favorite Chris song from Tusk. :p

SteveMacD

12-30-2020, 10:48 PM

"Little Lies" is my favorite Chris song from Tusk. :p

Interesting. :lol:

SteveMacD

12-30-2020, 11:26 PM

Sentence 2: Those are bands, not solo acts.
Top 50 AND a solo artist??? Fleetwood Mac could NEVER find someone like that...

Well, except Dave Mason, but he only had SEVEN Top 50 albums. I guess they could have brought back Bob Welch in 1997, since he had two Top 20 albums. How many Top 20 albums did Lindsey have?

Also, those dudes came into the band to play songs Lindsey wrote
Yes, those timeless Lindsey Buckingham classics like I Got You, Don’t Dream It’s Over, Tell Me All The Things You Do, Oh Well, Hypnotized, Black Magic Woman, Man of the World, Free Fallin’, and anything Stevie or Christine wrote.

They couldn't even make an EP. Both guys said before the tour that the expectation was to make new FM music
For much the same reason why we got LBCM and not another Fleetwood Mac album. They were up for it and still are.

BombaySapphire3

12-31-2020, 01:54 AM

Lindsey leaving the band did not boost sales of Tango In The Night. You just make stuff up. Tango peaked inside the top 10 during Big Love and fell out of the top 10 after Big Love faded. Seven Wonders barely cracked the top 20 and sales went down. The third single "Little Lies" was the biggest single (highest charting) of the album. If album sales increased slightly it was because of a hit single, not because of Lindsey leaving the band. Tango was so radio friendly it should have sold far more copies than it actually did. But Lindsey leaving the band had little to do either way about album sales. When you get a big HIT song, it will make album sales spike. Lindsey left right as Little Lies was released.

Tango did sell a lot of copies .It is just that most of them were not in the U.S. .Worldwide it did around 15 million.I agree Lindsey leaving has nothing to do with sales.

Macfan4life

12-31-2020, 10:35 AM

LOL, keep telling yourself that. The highest charting hit was released two or three weeks after he left and it topped MTV’s Top 20 videos two weeks in a row. Yep. Nothing to do with the drama. Purely coincidental.
OMG I thought jwd was joking but you really believe this?
When I first played Tango, Little Lies was so obvious it was going to be a huge hit that they placed it first song side 2 where back in those days the lead singles usually went.
Little Lies was the most radio friendly song on the album. Big Love was not an adult contemporary song (that radio was big in the 80s). Little Lies dominated that chart as well. Christine always churned out big hits.
I guess by your philosophy, Hold Me was a huge hit because people were more interested in Mirage because of Bella Donna ;)

Lindsey leaving had NOTHING to do with the release of singles from Tango. It came from the deadline to agree to start tour rehearsals which he bailed. If you really think this was coordinated, then they would have released Family Man or a Lindsey song. It was Christine's turn at a single. None of what you say makes any sense

elle

12-31-2020, 01:52 PM

amusing to come here in the thread that has nothing to do with it, to read how some people keep twisting themselves into pretzels to find various completely non-sensical ways to justify what happened in 2018 and push the false narrative that Stevie = saint, Lindsey = bad, in 1000s of different ways.

because if you make up things and then say them over and over and over and over, they just might start being perceived as truths no matter how removed from the reality they may be.

sure, Lindsey leaving in 1987 was what made Little Lies go through stratosphere of popularity :rolleyes:;). even though FM actual fans had no clue and went to the shows on that tour expecting to see Lindsey there. and Christine's amazing hook-writing skills had absolutely nothing to do with it.

that said, Little Lies on 2014-15 and then even more on 2017 tours?? R O C K I N G!!!!! loved that we had a chance to actually hear it live with Lindsey.

UnwindedDreams

12-31-2020, 02:18 PM

^I am sensing that the person might be in need of therapy and I will pray for them. May they find joy at a Crowded House concert in a H.O.B.

aleuzzi

12-31-2020, 04:52 PM

Look at the the thread title and then look at where the discussion has turned. I initially resurrected this old thread a few weeks back because, well, I really love Christine’s TUSK songs. All of them.

But to the matter of whether or not Lindsey could have been successful and even famous without Stevie, I’d say yes. At the very least, he would have carved out a niche for himself as a much-prized studio musician and arranger.

Now back to Christine, maybe?

Oh—and happy new year!

SteveMacD

12-31-2020, 06:11 PM

OMG I thought jwd was joking but you really believe this?
I finally bought TITN (first Fleetwood Mac album for me) around the time Lindsey quit. I’d been paying attention since Big Love was released. There was absolutely a curiosity about what was going on with the band. It was THE story. Lindsey was out and they had a new lineup getting ready to hit the road.

Question for you: Do you think Big Love benefited from being the first single from the first Fleetwood Mac album in five years, complete with a cool video? Like, would it have hit #5 if Lindsey had released it as a solo artist?

There was a distinct curiosity factor that surrounded Fleetwood Mac in 1987 that benefited the sales beyond just the music.

I guess by your philosophy, Hold Me was a huge hit because people were more interested in Mirage because of Bella Donna ;)
Huh? Belladonna had nothing to do with Mirage. They were two separate projects.

Lindsey quit the band when they were promoting an album and the single released weeks later was the biggest one and album sales started going up. And, I read somewhere that more copies were sold after Lindsey quit than before.

Lindsey leaving had NOTHING to do with the release of singles from Tango.
Didn’t suggest it did.

If you really think this was coordinated,
I didn’t say or imply it was coordinated. I was clearly saying that sales benefited from the freak show that was going on.

bombaysaffires

12-31-2020, 06:35 PM

SteveMacD

12-31-2020, 06:49 PM

amusing to come here in the thread that has nothing to do with it, to read how some people keep twisting themselves into pretzels to find various completely non-sensical ways to justify what happened in 2018 and push the false narrative that Stevie = saint, Lindsey = bad, in 1000s of different ways.
Wow, that’s laying it on pretty thick, even by your standards. Nobody said Stevie saint, Lindsey bad.

because if you make up things and then say them over and over and over and over, they just might start being perceived as truths no matter how removed from the reality they may be.
Like “Lindsey made them superstars?”

sure, Lindsey leaving in 1987 was what made Little Lies go through stratosphere of popularity :rolleyes:;). even though FM actual fans had no clue and went to the shows on that tour expecting to see Lindsey there. and Christine's amazing hook-writing skills had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Elle, when did you become a fan?

You couldn’t escape the story in 1987. MTV mentioned it almost every time they played LL. Nobody was expecting to see Lindsey. They played clips from the press conference announcing Billy and Rick all the time.

michelej1

12-31-2020, 07:30 PM

SteveMacD

12-31-2020, 07:44 PM

I don’t care how publicized something is in the musical industry, most fans at arena sized FM concerts know nothing about it. There are casual fans and focused fans and focused fans probably make up less than 20% of album and ticket sales.

I am sure that you guys experience that even now. There are things that we talk about nonstop that you mention to your outside friends and they have no idea. They know who Fleetwood Mac is. They can sing along to the hits. But they don’t pay attention to the inside gossip. They don’t know when Lindsey left. They don’t know when he returned. They don’t know when he left again. They don’t know when Christine left. They don’t know when she returned. If they want to know anything about the band, they ask you. But mostly they don’t want to know. They don’t care.

To say everyone who bought Tango or went to a Tango concert did it because they were curious about Billy and Rick or the drama of Lindsey leaving is silly. And I’ve been a focused fan since 1979. I was paying attention when it happened. People knew, but I wouldn’t say the majority did.

I went to an FM meet and greet once and before the show they gave us a little gift bag, they gave us time to buy merchandise and then they gave us an opportunity to win a prize. We had to answer questions about the band. I got all the questions right and everyone else got about five right answers tops. They had paid over $1000 a person to attend the meet and greet, but they were still only casual Fleetwood Mac fans. They didn’t know the band history.
I respectfully call BS.

I bought TITN, my first Fleetwood Mac album, sometime in late July/early August and was 13 at the time. If I was very aware of Lindsey leaving before I was familiar with “Fleetwood Mac” or “Rumours,” I guarantee you that people dropping money on tickets also knew.

You keep trying to pull this “casual fan” card on Fleetwood Mac (at least the Rumours band) as if it’s not one of the biggest selling bands ever. Why was the OWTS tour much bigger than the 2013 tour? How do you explain that?

Of course Lindsey leaving was a huge story in 1987, just as the return of Lindsey and Stevie were the whole point of the 1997 tour.

I almost went to opening night in 2013 for $35. That price went bye-bye the moment Christine returned. But, yeah, nobody noticed the difference.

UnwindedDreams

12-31-2020, 08:28 PM

Why was the OWTS tour much bigger than the 2013 tour? How do you explain that?

I almost went to opening night in 2013 for $35. That price went bye-bye the moment Christine returned. But, yeah, nobody noticed the difference.

Was the $35 ticket being sold through the show via Ticketmaster or was ot resale?

I bought my 6th row Philly tickets for $250 each on StubHub and my 3rd row DC seats from Ticketmaster for $375... it was under $400. $250 for Jones Beach sixth row.

The 2013 Tour was not a tour that lost money or failed. Before the tour started, there was an Extra interview where they talked about it selling out, Mick thanked Stevie for her "witchery". They headlined Jazz Fest. 3 nights were booked at The o2.
Stevie had just toured the year before too. I did all her NYC Metro shows that year and the only one that was packed was Beacon. It was one of my favorite concerts.
So the ticketbuying public could have been exhausted with Stevie's strong touring presence from early 2011 to late 2012. But they weren't.

I think FM becoming more popular than they were 03-09 years (which still had sold out shows in places like MSG and MGM in Vegas, though the June 2009 MSG show sold bad) started the Glee "FM" episode. Back in 2011, Glee was ginormous. Remember Glee got Rumours charting again. I don't think it's left the Billboard 200 for a while.
Stevie did help bring attention to FM too by doing The Voice, America's Got Talent, and American Idol. A lot of young people discovered FM.
Christine was the hot product for selling the 2014 Tour along with the surge that FM was having.
Over 2 years later from OWTS, they (I think) sold out Shea with ridiculous prices $500 for 20th row. It did look sold out.
Fleetwood Mac has had a crazy popularity rise since 2011.

SteveMacD

12-31-2020, 08:55 PM

Was the $35 ticket being sold through the show via Ticketmaster or was ot resale?
Probably Stub Hub. That said, I also got my 2014 and 2018 tickets that way and didn’t pay less than $120. And, that’s nosebleeds, last row central in one show.

The 2013 Tour was not a tour that lost money or failed.
Still, it paled in comparison to the 2014 tour.

Christine was the hot product for selling the 2014 Tour along with the surge that FM was having.
EXACTLY my point! People, even casual fans, understood when Christine came back. That was a huge moment for the band, and demand for tickets certainly corresponded with that.

Over 2 years later from OWTS, they (I think) sold out Shea with ridiculous prices $500 for 20th row. It did look sold out.
Fleetwood Mac has had a crazy popularity rise since 2011.
As a fan from 1987, I’d say since The Dance. Those shows may have brought in a new generation, but they’ve been exclusively arena/large amphitheater rock since 1997. I was around for the lean times for Fleetwood Mac and Lindsey (avoided Stevie like the plague...well, at least for someone serious about avoiding a plague) between 1991-96. I was/am a staunch Bekka Bramlett fan.

UnwindedDreams

12-31-2020, 09:18 PM

Still, it paled in comparison to the 2014 tour. Still, Live 2013 was greatly successful. Mick was going on about what great business they were doing and how they were outselling the Stones 50 Years & Counting Tour. Azoff said it was the best business the band had done in 25 years. But they did also announce the Live 2013 Tour by saying they were following the sold out Unleashed Tour...not true
OWTS was enormous. I don't think every show was a sellout but they did do a ton more shows than 2013 and multinight runs. It was a solid show. Especially when Think About Me and Bleed to Love Her came back.

EXACTLY my point! People, even casual fans, understood when Christine came back. That was a huge moment for the band, and demand for tickets certainly corresponded with that. They did have major major press for OWTS. I watched the Today show announcement.

As a fan from 1987, I’d say since The Dance.
I'm going to stick with Glee and I'll add American Horror Story too for the enhanced interest. The mass tv audience helped the band and it helped Stevie too. 03-09 they could draw crowds but not all markets so I feel 2011 was the Resurrection.

michelej1

12-31-2020, 10:25 PM

I respectfully call BS.

I bought TITN, my first Fleetwood Mac album, sometime in late July/early August and was 13 at the time. If I was very aware of Lindsey leaving before I was familiar with Â“Fleetwood MacÂ” or Â“Rumours,Â” I guarantee you that people dropping money on tickets also knew.

You keep trying to pull this Â“casual fanÂ” card on Fleetwood Mac (at least the Rumours band) as if itÂ’s not one of the biggest selling bands ever. Why was the OWTS tour much bigger than the 2013 tour? How do you explain that?

Of course Lindsey leaving was a huge story in 1987, just as the return of Lindsey and Stevie were the whole point of the 1997 tour.

I almost went to opening night in 2013 for $35. That price went bye-bye the moment Christine returned. But, yeah, nobody noticed the difference.

Of course Fleetwood Mac is popular. To say that the bulk of their fans are Â“casualÂ” is not to deny their popularity. In fact it is to corroborate it. It is when you cross over and seep into the consciousness of the main stream public at large that you become a massive band. But buying a concert ticket does not mean that everyone is intimately familiar with an entertainment act. If you like music, if you like top 10 hits, then you buy a ticket for best selling acts. It doesnÂ’t mean you know about the personal drama going on behind the scenes. Look at all the records that Abba has sold. Do you think I know one single thing about any of the members of Abba? I do not. I know all of their songs though. I have seen both Mamma Mia movies.I donÂ’t know who is in that band. I think itÂ’s two men and two women. That is all I know. That is all IÂ’ve ever known. Wanting to hear their songs live has nothing to do with wanting to know what is going on with the band internally.

If there are 15,000 people at a concert, not all of them watch the news updates on MTV. Heck, if Lindsey leaving the band made such big news back then, IÂ’m surprised Elle didnÂ’t find out about it and become a fan at that time. You really over inflate the pervasiveness of this Â“newsÂ“.

Everyone knows that John Lennon was fatally shot. That impacted the sales of Double Fantasy. But Tango propelled to stellar sales because the world learned Lindsey left? Not so much. Also, this drama that you mentioned . . . it is mostly only known to us. Please ask someone who is not on a Fleetwood Mac bulletin board what happened when Lindsey left the band in 1987. They wonÂ’t have a clue. No one knows about the fight at ChristineÂ’s house except us and, um, Martha Quinn.

Record buyers are not the same people who voraciously read articles about a specific band in Rolling Stone, for the most part.

Also, I think you just thought of this idea right now because in all these years you never proffered it before. I think it wouldÂ’ve come up in conversation in the past.HavenÂ’t we all discussed everything 200 times already?

SteveMacD

01-01-2021, 02:59 AM

Still, Live 2013 was greatly successful.
Didn’t say it wasn’t, but not really the point. My comment was about Michelle’s notion in late 2013/early 2014 that nobody would notice the difference if Christine returned and that what became the OWTS tour would be a failure because of how close it was to the Unleashed tour. In other words, that casual fans wouldn’t care enough to notice whether not a key member, the primary hit songwriter no less, was in the band. Of course they knew. OWTS was a much bigger tour.

I'm going to stick with Glee and I'll add American Horror Story too for the enhanced interest.
Enhanced, absolutely. However, Fleetwood Mac would still have been an arena rock band.

SteveMacD

01-01-2021, 03:13 AM

It is when you cross over and seep into the consciousness of the main stream public at large that you become a massive band. But buying a concert ticket does not mean that everyone is intimately familiar with an entertainment act.
I’m not a fan of Van Halen. I don’t own any of their albums. However, I’d probably know wether or not I was going to see Sammy or Dave before the show.

Look at all the records that Abba has sold. Do you think I know one single thing about any of the members of Abba? I do not.
Abba isn’t one of the top 50 selling artists of all time. Fleetwood Mac is 21 and has a twice member of the Hall of Fame.

I’m surprised Elle didn’t find out about it and become a fan at that time. You really over inflate the pervasiveness of this “news.”
Elle only became a fan in 2006, if I’m not mistaken.

But Tango propelled to stellar sales because the world learned Lindsey left? Not so much.
Except it reportedly sold more copies after Lindsey left than before.

Also, this drama that you mentioned . . . it is mostly only known to us. Please ask someone who is not on a Fleetwood Mac bulletin board what happened when Lindsey left the band in 1987. They wonÂ’t have a clue.
Today, random, anecdotal person who might not have been alive at the time won’t know, but Fleetwood Mac concert goers in 1987 knew.

Macfan4life

01-01-2021, 08:15 AM

SteveMacD

01-01-2021, 09:05 AM

Many may have known Lindsey left but could not name the 2 new guitarists.
That’s moving the goalpost, though. I was replying to Elle’s comment that people were going to shows in 1987 expecting to see Lindsey in the band, as if the split wasn’t highly publicized.

You seemed to claim Lindsey leaving spiked album sales. That makes no sense.
That happened, though. There was a controversy, the single that was released two or three weeks later became the highest charting single, followed by a promotional tour.

There was no social media in 1987 and his departure was one day news that ended after one week. MTV did air parts of the news conference announcing the new line up.
Except, it didn’t just end after a week.

Claiming Little Lies was a bigger hit because of Lindsey's leaving is not only wrong but an insult to the song.
So, is it an insult to Rumours that the album’s popularity went far beyond the music?

A band reuniting with former members is much bigger and more powerful than one of them leaving. You are comparing Lindsey leaving to the buzz of Lindsey and Stevie coming back in 1997. That is apples and oranges.
Both were extensively covered in the music media.

UnwindedDreams

01-01-2021, 10:07 AM

Abba isn’t one of the top 50 selling artists of all time. Fleetwood Mac is 21 and has a twice member of the Hall of Fame. ABBA's sold 385 million records.

Elle only became a fan in 2006, if I’m not mistaken. It's mean that you said "only". Fleetwood Mac doesn't belong to just to you.

aleuzzi

01-01-2021, 11:53 AM

Yeah, Christine’s TUSK songs are great. Happy New Year!

michelej1

01-01-2021, 01:13 PM

Yeah, Christine’s TUSK songs are great. Happy New Year!

Well, Little Lies (and the reason for its success) does figure into the conversation tangentially. If that is any comfort.

michelej1

01-01-2021, 01:29 PM

Why do we complain that Fleetwood Mac plays to casual fans, rather than the dedicated ones who know their catalog by heart? Because they are so big that casual fans out number the diehards by the thousands. Many people go to Fleetwood Mac concert because itÂ’s the thing to do. ItÂ’s a fad. Not because they know anything about the performers as individuals.

For the SYW tour and beyond, many people didnÂ’t know Christine was no longer in the band. I know this because I sat near loads of these people in concert and although I really tried to mind my own business, sometimes I could not help but butt in and share with them knowledge that only focused fans, fanatics and stans actually care about.

People know the Beatles broke up. I think they know that there was some acrimony between Yoko Ono and Paul. I know that John claimed Paul looked at Yoko every time he sang the chorus to “get back”. That is universal knowledge. I don’t think the masses know what goes on in Fleetwood Mac other than the fact that they all supposedly slept together and used drugs during Rumours. People know more about that than they do about anything that happened in 1987. That’s probably why the band is not asked about 1987 in interviews. They are only asked about Rumours over and over and over again.

It’s like Macfan4life said, the bigger your audiences, the less likely people are to know intimate details about the band. When you’re a small, eclectic band the majority of your record buyers and concert goers are more likely to be into you. When you’re big, people just want to hop on the band wagon. They don’t care so much where that wagon is going or where it’s been or who hopped off along the way.

aleuzzi

01-01-2021, 02:33 PM

Well, Little Lies (and the reason for its success) does figure into the conversation tangentially. If that is any comfort.

Haha! Yes it does, slightly. And sadly, you’re right about the bulk of FM concert-goers: they’re casual fans who kinda’ don’t care as long as their hits get played by someone.

SteveMacD

01-01-2021, 02:46 PM

It's mean that you said "only". Fleetwood Mac doesn't belong to just to you.

Huh? Seriously, what are you talking about?

I said Elle “only” became a fan in 2006 because she said something about how people went to see Fleetwood Mac in 1987 expecting to see Lindsey. As someone who was only familiar with TITN and the Mirage singles in 1987, that’s simply not accurate. The change received extensive coverage and was all over MTV and classic rock and Top 40 radio in the fall of 1987.

SteveMacD

01-01-2021, 02:53 PM

For the SYW tour and beyond, many people didnÂ’t know Christine was no longer in the band.
Many might not have, but I’m sure most noticed there was only one blonde.

I don’t think the masses know what goes on in Fleetwood Mac other than the fact that they all supposedly slept together and used drugs during Rumours.
I don’t see how this can simultaneously exist with people not realizing one of the two women wasn’t there. At the very minimum, Fleetwood Mac’s imagine was largely as a band with two women.

UnwindedDreams

01-01-2021, 03:54 PM

Huh? Seriously, what are you talking about?

I said Elle “only” became a fan in 2006 because she said something about how people went to see Fleetwood Mac in 1987 expecting to see Lindsey.

Why didn't you write "Elle became a fan in 2006"? Why did you include "only became"?

Mindy and Jana were blondes in the band during SYW Tour.

Macfan4life

01-01-2021, 04:18 PM

Its a little known fact but Stevie's rebab stint may have brought terrible songs to Tango but the drama of it all increased Tango sales and brought Big Love into the top 10.

michelej1

01-01-2021, 05:41 PM

Why didn't you write "Elle became a fan in 2006"? Why did you include "only became"?

Lindsey’s departure created such national, well global, news that Elle probably bought Big Love in 1987, due to the scandal. But she didn’t actually think the song was any good. In short, it sucked. That’s why it took her awhile to become a fan.

SteveMacD

01-01-2021, 05:48 PM

Why didn't you write "Elle became a fan in 2006"? Why did you include "only became"?
Because she wasn’t a fan when everything went down in 1987.

Mindy and Jana were blondes in the band during SYW Tour.
What’s your problem? That’s maybe the single most juvenile, idiotic thing I think I’ve ever read on this forum.

Macfan4life

01-01-2021, 06:15 PM

Black Monday occurred on October 19, 1987 just as Little Lies was burning up the US charts. There has always been speculation that the global shock of Lindsey's departure caused one of the biggest market crashes in history plunging the stock market over 20%.
Coincidence? I think not. Just a few weeks after Black Monday, Little Lies hit its peak chart position fueled by this moment in rock history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_(1987)

SteveMacD

01-01-2021, 06:27 PM

How did people not have the sophistication to realize she was gone, yet her comeback tour with Fleetwood Mac was the biggest in 17 years, and just a year after the last tour ended? How could people know that Fleetwood Mac was the band where everyone broke up with each other, but didn’t notice there was only one woman in the band? How many times has The Dance aired over the years?

Christine was on the back cover of an album that’s sold like 40 million copies, the front cover of an album that sold over five million copies and another that sold over three million copies, was in all of their music videos, and was in the pictures with the band over the span of decades. She was absolutely part of their public image even if she wasn’t a household name. You seriously think people didn’t notice? Of course most people noticed, even casual fans, anecdotal examples notwithstanding.

michelej1

01-01-2021, 07:53 PM

Fleetwood Mac is the band that is famous for people breaking up with each other and famous for doing drugs, but a lot of people don’t know which couples broke up or who was sleeping with whom. A lot of them probably think Mick got a divorce from Christine. They have no idea who Jenny is.

They don’t read the details. They hear the summary and don’t put names to the stories or match faces with the names. Most people don’t research a band before buying a record or going to a concert. Despite the success of Rumours and the fact that I knew the songs, I really didn’t know that the band who sang SYLM was the same band that sang GYOW. It was only after Sara came out that I bought the haunting single, then I bought the album and then I dug my heels in, bought the older records, read all the articles and started going to concerts and learning everything there was to know. But I enjoyed their music for several years before I bothered to learn anything about the band’s background.

We all have favorite bands that we collect information on and then we just have bands that we want to tap our toes to and we pay little attention to the history. What we know here is not common knowledge and what we know here seldom spurs ticket sales or Billboard charts. Does it fill magazine articles? Yes it does but don’t think that more than 20% of people who attend a concert read magazine articles about the musicians.

OK, I know Alanis Morissette broke up with that guy who was on Full House and her album was about that, but if I bought the album it was because of the songs, not the gossip.

I don’t follow music fans on social media. But I follow people who enjoy a television show that I like (I am a Joshua Jackson fan). And I see someone who has a Stevie Nicks avatar. Her username changes but it is always a variation on Rhiannon. Well, even with Stevie as their internet face, you would be shocked at how little they know about Fleetwood Mac.

elle

01-01-2021, 09:05 PM

i remember when i first joined The Ledge and people here kept saying how it was impossible not to know OOTC came out in the early 90s, that commercials for it were everywhere. yes, if you were a FM fan and interested, you may have noticed them. not if you were general music lover.

turns out in early 90s i was following what was happening in the music, happily went to see bunch of shows (including Nirvana and original Stone Temple Pilots). i never saw a single commercial for OOTC, and never heard of Lindsey Buckingham. (i so wish now i saw him on OOTC tour.) yet Fleetwood Mac was everywhere with Bill Clinton and Don't Stop. they were unavoidable. yet that did absolutely nothing for the sales of new Fleetwood Mac album at the time, or Lindsey's OOTC. i didn't have a clue who is or isn't in the band, or even that their "classic lineup" is not together. but again, they were everywhere with Don't Stop. i even bought their green greatest hits album (with that BMG deal they had going where you can get x albums for like a cent each), listened to it once, and didn't care for it much. i was into grunge. which is what was REALLY everywhere at the time. yet, people here kept saying how much advertising OOTC had at the time and that it was unavoidable. just shows you how fan perspective is a very different one than a general audience perspective.

Fleetwood Mac can pack arenas because everyone knows band's name, brand, and hits. not because they know the names of the people in the band, who is in the band at what time, what is the back story at any given time etc etc. that's the thing with huge commercial acts - they attract extra people who fill arenas or stadiums, just by their brand name. just to say they saw Fleetwood Mac.

elle

01-01-2021, 09:28 PM

another thing - what was happening in the 80s or 90s as far as the access to info was very very different than now, once internet became pervasive. now all info is at your fingertips, and social media amplifies to huge proportions. that's very different from several articles in music journals that you had to go fish for back before the internet.

as far as the tour in 2014-15, there were several things that collided in the pretty perfect storm at the time - while people may not know the names of all band members, the Glee episode made the songs and Rumours album go viral. not as much as tiktok in 2020, but it was definitely a comeback. and then, miracle happened - the band actually reunited with their biggest lineup, intact. that is rare for these older legendary bands. REALLY rare. and then, Stevie Nicks guest starred on AHS. that added a whole another layer of young girls who became huge stans and gave Nicks a whole another persona on top of her already existing persona. so all those 3 things together had people who had no clue that FM was touring in 2009 or 2013 flocking to their shows in 2014-15.

in 2009 and 2013, it was not general audience's knowledge of the band membership that made some feel like something was missing - it was lack of the songs in the setlist. experience of seeing 2013 show in Scotland really made that crystal clear for me. most Fleetwood Mac songs people recognized there were Christine's. in the bar next to the venue they were playing FM songs after the show. guess what songs? Everywhere, Little Lies, Don't Stop - Christine's songs were half of the playlist. same tour, i took my then pre-teen daughter to one of the shows and played the very best of FM double album in the car driving from the show. she was like - wait who sings those [Christine's songs]? and why were they not playing them?

SteveMacD

01-01-2021, 11:33 PM

elle

01-02-2021, 12:26 AM

So, people were expecting to see Lindsey Buckingham in 1987

"people" who were expecting to see LB in 1987 were members of The Ledge. you seem to be particularly invested in finding out more about this; if you do the search you can probably find those posts. :shrug:

bombaysaffires

01-02-2021, 12:27 AM

So, people were expecting to see Lindsey Buckingham in 1987 but were so casual in their fandom that they didn’t realize Fleetwood Mac was missing a woman in 2003-13. Got it.

However, it begs the question that if most people going to shows are so casual in their fandom that they‘re clueless about the composition of the band, not in terms of knowing their names, but that they were two women and three men, if it’s because Fleetwood Mac is just a brand, then why was the Time lineup a flop?

Ponder that while I get some popcorn.

coz the music wasn't as good, and it didn't align with the zeitgeist in music at that time as it had in the 70s. In fact, in the 70s FM was just that little bit ahead of the curve, and became part of the forefront of those defining pop music.

Cut to the time Tusk was out, and music had shifted to punk and new wave. I still have my old collection of magazines with FM on the cover along with the Eagles and Springsteen which call them all over-bloated dinosaurs whose time had passed. So yeah, fans from the heyday of the 70s knew the gossip, but they were already considered "establishment" and somewhat passe by the early 80s and over and done by early 90s. I had moved on by then having graduated college, begun my career and building an adult life. Many younger people even by then knew the name and knew they were a band that had big hits in the past, but not as part of their generation (how I grew up feeling about the 60s).

They got a bump from Clinton but really it was The Dance that brought them back.

SteveMacD

01-02-2021, 01:12 AM

"people" who were expecting to see LB in 1987 were members of The Ledge.
I‘m sorry, but the story was too huge in 1987.

No, there wasn’t social media, but this was also before digital cable. The only news station was CNN. MTV and VH-1 were actual music video stations and major players in the music industry. People still read newspapers and music magazines, where the story was heavily covered. Entertainment Tonight was really the only entertainment news program. There were very few outlets. That lack of digital television and social media was advantageous for a band at the level of Fleetwood Mac, especially in 1987, when they were still relevant and had a hit album, because it allowed them to have a dominating story in the press. That was free publicity.

coz the music wasn't as good, and it didn't align with the zeitgeist in music at that time as it had in the 70s.
I wasn’t talking about the album, just the live shows. And, considering Smashing Pumpkins had an alternative hit with Landslide, one would think that it wasn‘t completely unaligned with the zeitgeist. I mean, less than two years after the last tour date by the Mason-Bramlett lineup, probably on a bill with REO Speedwagon and Pat Benatar, Fleetwood Mac was playing a sold-out arena tour with the Rumours lineup. If Fleetwood Mac is just a brand to most casual fans, then why would it matter who was in the band? Why such a discrepancy in such a short period of time?

FuzzyPlum

01-02-2021, 07:17 AM

Tango In The Night was a particularly big album here in the UK. Throughout 87-88 I think it hit Number 1 on 3 different occasions. Pretty sure its success and the singles' success had little or nothing to do with Lindsey leaving.

I got into FM due to my parents' copy of TITN. To this day they probably have little or no idea who the band members are (possibly they'd know Stevie). They only knew the band due to Rumours. They are typical casual fans- will buy a couple of albums (and might even go to a concert) but wont know the ins and outs of who is who.

Back at that time we only had 4 terrestrial TV channels in the UK. Relatively few people had subscriptions for satellite channels so most people's musical awareness would have been radio or their weekly fix of Top of The Pops on BBC1. Pretty sure LB leaving wasn't really big news here so wouldn't have impacted on sales.

Could be wrong though.

FuzzyPlum

01-02-2021, 07:37 AM

I'm one of those people who spent ages trying to work out who is who. Stevie was obviously the chap on the TITN back cover with the big bulging jeans. Couldn't work out which of the ladies was Christine and which was Lindsey.
In 1990 I was excited to watch a new music programme called Rock Steady on UK Channel 4 (the Fleetwood Mac episode might even have been the very first episode of this new show). I knew they had a new album coming out and Rock Steady was showcasing interviews with the band. I had to watch that programme with the sound off as it was past my bedtime. Having watched it with no sound I was very confused- couldn't understand why they had an additional person in the band. Lindsey seemed to look very different by then (Billy?).

People who watched MTV and music magazines may have been more savvy than me and known a bit more about band members. However, I don't think people who bought music magazines really represented the general Fleetwood Mac demographic by that time. Most of those who who went to Shake the Cage probably had no real awareness of who is who, though they might have been a bit perplexed as to why they didn't play Big Love.

sue

01-02-2021, 08:11 AM

HomerMcvie

01-02-2021, 08:39 AM

I’m sure there was no mention of Lindsey leaving..
I was a lapsed fan by 87, but I’m sure I’d remember that being announced.

1982 was the last time they were a band, and not an orchestra. By 1987, they'd learned how to cover their tracks and lie.
"Let's dress Billy up like Lindsey, and no one will ever know".
And to be honest, for the Tango tour, we had the worst/ farthest seats in the house, and I wasn't sure if it was Lindsey or not.

UnwindedDreams

01-02-2021, 10:11 AM

I mean, less than two years after the last tour date by the Mason-Bramlett lineup, probably on a bill with REO Speedwagon and Pat Benatar, Fleetwood Mac was playing a sold-out arena tour with the Rumours lineup. If Fleetwood Mac is just a brand to most casual fans, then why would it matter who was in the band?

It would be interesting to know if Stevie had strong ticket sales on her 1994 Tour and if Mac had strong ticket sales in 94 and 95.
How strong was the marketing for these tours?

Say You Will Tour had good attendance in most markets, not strong like The Dance. Should Stevie be credited for the good SYW attendance?
She toured two years before SYW. Her sheds were best attended on TISL in her touring period of 2001-2012. The only better attendance was the Solo & Together Tour with Don.

elle

01-02-2021, 02:38 PM

1982 was the last time they were a band, and not an orchestra. By 1987, they'd learned how to cover their tracks and lie.
"Let's dress Billy up like Lindsey, and no one will ever know".
And to be honest, for the Tango tour, we had the worst/ farthest seats in the house, and I wasn't sure if it was Lindsey or not.

maybe it was your post about this that i've seen? not sure. just remember reading similar posts. either way, obviously you were a knowledgeable enough FM fan, yet unsure of what's happening.

elle

01-02-2021, 02:54 PM

It would be interesting to know if Stevie had strong ticket sales on her 1994 Tour and if Mac had strong ticket sales in 94 and 95.
How strong was the marketing for these tours?

Say You Will Tour had good attendance in most markets, not strong like The Dance. Should Stevie be credited for the good SYW attendance?
She toured two years before SYW. Her sheds were best attended on TISL in her touring period of 2001-2012. The only better attendance was the Solo & Together Tour with Don.

from what i've seen in 2000s, FM marketing is always barely half-baked.

that said, it is interesting to watch ebbs and flows of popularity, both FM and other bands. in 1992-93, everyone knew about the band with Don't Stop being omnipresent, yet nobody cared about seeing them or their various incarnations or members live. it was early 90s and grunge was huge. by mid 90s original grunge was blowing over, Kurt Cobain was dead, there was a second wave of grunge/post-grunge bands, and music was again moving on. with some alternative bands covering FM, and the hell freezing over, all of the sudden there was a fertile ground for the FM reunion. i remember seeing excerpts from the dance and the 1998 tour on tv we had going in the background. they were spotlighted at the grammys and brits. that's when i first started paying attention. when i first heard of Lindsey Buckingham. i remember boys in the room saying how the blonde used to be so hot. i was asking which blonde, there were two, and Christine looked much better than Stevie in those videos.

UnwindedDreams

01-02-2021, 03:03 PM

from what i've seen in 2000s, FM marketing is always barely half-baked.
I kid you not, I was in a Blimpie in 2004 and my soda cup had the grey and white graphic for the Say You Will Tour on it. The graphic read "An Evening With Fleetwood Mac: In Concert". I believe there were other bands on it too like Van Halen. May've been a vh1 camapign.
I can't recall the commercials or my tickets saying Say You Will Tour on them just An Evening With.

SteveMacD

01-02-2021, 03:36 PM

It would be interesting to know if Stevie had strong ticket sales on her 1994 Tour and if Mac had strong ticket sales in 94 and 95.
How strong was the marketing for these tours?
Stevie had some promotion, especially since she was touring an album. There were a few things on TV, radio, and newspapers and magazines. I wasn’t interested in her at that point, preferring the band, so I can only go by what others have said. The venues were half full, but Stevie sounded better and had noticeably more energy compared to the recent past.

Fleetwood Mac primarily opened for CSN or did that package tour with REO Speedwagon and Pat Benatar. There wasn’t really anything to promote. There were some interviews here and there, though. They did that TV broadcast in France, which was probably the biggest thing they did. Their last tour date was Aug. 31 and “Time” was released Oct. 10.

Say You Will Tour had good attendance in most markets, not strong like The Dance. Should Stevie be credited for the good SYW attendance?
She toured two years before SYW.
Absolutely, to a point. Remember, Stevie went on tour in 1998 and 2001 while Lindsey was largely inactive, at least publicly, since the 1998 award show/HOF appearances. For perspective, Peter Green was less reclusive 1996-2002 than Lindsey. I saw a TISL show because it had been four years since The Dance, three years since USA Splinter Group tour, and I needed some type of Mac fix.

UnwindedDreams

01-02-2021, 04:02 PM

Absolutely, to a point. Remember, Stevie went on tour in 1998 and 2001 while Lindsey was largely inactive, at least publicly, since the 1998 award show/HOF appearances. For perspective, Peter Green was less reclusive 1996-2002 than Lindsey. I saw a TISL show because it had been four years since The Dance, three years since USA Splinter Group tour, and I needed some type of Mac fix.

I have no problem stating or believing that Lindsey isn't a massive, super rockstar with a long list of hits. Stevie is an international superstar, but not like Cher, Janet, Tina, or Shania.
I do however believe that there are people who really enjoy his FM songs, his co-write songs and his solo songs, which is why promoters take chances and take his tours including the 2018 run and the planned 2020 run.. and a laudatory tweet from the gorgeous Rob Lowe!
There's energy from the audiences at his solo shows too. As there's energy at Stevie's...I've been asked to sit down at a bunch of Stevie shows as an aside. One lady said she didn't want to stare at my "ass".

If Stevie is to receive credit for the good attendance of the SYW Tour, I feel it's fair for me to think that more people, but not every patron, may've bought tickets to the SYW Tour than the Enchanted and TISL Tours because they wanted to see Lindsey and Stevie together. I don't think it is wild to say people came out for the 03-04 tour who didn't see Enchanted or TISL in order to see the Lindsey and Stevie show with the chemistry.

elle

01-02-2021, 05:04 PM

Say You Will Tour had good attendance in most markets, not strong like The Dance. Should Stevie be credited for the good SYW attendance?
She toured two years before SYW. Her sheds were best attended on TISL in her touring period of 2001-2012. The only better attendance was the Solo & Together Tour with Don.

Stevie should be credited for stopping the momentum that FM had after the Dance by going off to resurrect her stalled solo career instead, while the rest of the band was waiting around for her and finally decide to go into studio without her in 2001. if all members cared about the band at the time, they could have wrapped up and put SYW out immediately after the Dance and packed a huge 1-2 punch. by the time Stevie was done with making her new album and touring around it, it was 6 years later and momentum and interest from the Dance was long dead and gone.

that said, i do remember hearing Peacekeeper on the radio a lot at the time.

talking about the marketing - Stevie and her people were always 1000x better in marketing her than FM people were in marketing the band. still the case now, although Mick's been trying, and his timing jumping on tiktok trend was good.

SteveMacD

01-02-2021, 05:09 PM

I have no problem stating or believing that Lindsey isn't a massive, super rockstar with a long list of hits. Stevie is an international superstar, but not like Cher, Janet, Tina, or Shania.
I do however believe that there are people who really enjoy his FM songs, his co-write songs and his solo songs, which is why promoters take chances and take his tours including the 2018 run and the planned 2020 run.. and a laudatory tweet from the gorgeous Rob Lowe!
There's energy from the audiences at his solo shows too. As there's energy at Stevie's...I've been asked to sit down at a bunch of Stevie shows as an aside. One lady said she didn't want to stare at my "ass".

If Stevie is to receive credit for the good attendance of the SYW Tour, I feel it's fair for me to think that more people, but not every patron, may've bought tickets to the SYW Tour than the Enchanted and TISL Tours because they wanted to see Lindsey and Stevie together. I don't think it is wild to say people came out for the 03-04 tour who didn't see Enchanted or TISL in order to see the Lindsey and Stevie show with the chemistry.

Fleetwood Mac is a completely different beast than Stevie solo, but her solo tours kept her, and the band by extension, in some form of public consciousness.

Lindsey has almost as much public career inactivity as Christine. He did as many tour dates between the Tusk and SYW tours (22 years) as they did on the OWTS tours, and only three solo albums, one coming out five years after leaving the band. What did he do immediately after all the pressers from The Dance/HOF were over, at least publicly? He disappeared for five years. Peter Green was less reclusive during those years.

To her credit, Stevie struck while the fire was hot and kept her name out there and solidified her new rock godmother/survivor image.

HomerMcvie

01-02-2021, 05:28 PM

maybe it was your post about this that i've seen? not sure. just remember reading similar posts. either way, obviously you were a knowledgeable enough FM fan, yet unsure of what's happening.

Well, back in the olden days, we had no Ledge where we got our info. I'd usually only buy music mags if FM was on the cover, so I was living in the dark.
PLUS, I'd began college then, and it was horribly unhip to like FM, so I'd put them on a back burner in my life, during the Tango years.

UnwindedDreams

01-02-2021, 05:46 PM

What did he do immediately after all the pressers from The Dance/HOF were over, at least publicly? He disappeared for five years. Peter Green was less reclusive.

He and Kristen were starting a family/raising kids

SteveMacD

01-02-2021, 05:58 PM

He and Kristen were starting a family/raising kids

Jeremy, Mick, John, Billy, Rick, and Neil all managed to record and tour while they had young children. That was Lindsey’s choice, and that was his prerogative, but it had consequences to his career.

elle

01-02-2021, 06:13 PM

He and Kristen were starting a family/raising kids

nope. he and the rest of the band were waiting for Stevie to stop promoting her solo career and come back to the studio with them. as they always do. as they did from 2009 on too, and finally in 2017 (8 years later!!!!!) they decided not to wait anymore and put BuckVie out without her.

i really hope he finally learned the lesson that waiting for Stevie is a lose-lose for him and FM, and never ever tries that wait again. i am happy that at least in 2000s, after SN said nope to the band once SYW was out, he decided to release those 2 solo albums and extensively tour, and the same in 2009 after she said no to the band after Unleashed. but after 2012, it was again back to the same ole wait for SN to come back to FM. in his 70s it's the last possible hour to finally get it. as long as SN is in FM, her solo career has always and will always come first.

the false claims how SN advertising herself is somehow helping Fleetwood Mac name are naïve. helping the narrative that SN=FM, sure. it was always hurting the band and Lindsey's firing was supposed to be her final nail in that coffin.

SteveMacD

01-02-2021, 06:14 PM

Stevie should be credited for stopping the momentum that FM had after the Dance by going off to resurrect her stalled solo career instead, while the rest of the band was waiting around for her and finally decide to go into studio without her in 2001.
LOL!!!

Nevermind the fact that they weren’t absolutely sure if Christine was actually out, that she might have just needed some time away...

Still, the biggest reason for the inactivity was the debate as how to release it. Lindsey would have preferred solo, but the label wanted Fleetwood Mac. The new brass at WB wasn’t enthusiastic about another Lindsey Buckingham album. Of course, the compromise, and maybe more accurate way to credit the album, would have been Buckingham Fleetwood McVie. Not quite Fleetwood Mac, but certainly suggested in the name. IIRC, Lindsey was planning on touring with Mick in 2001. They had dates tentatively scheduled. A show was announced in my area.

But, as mentioned, Lindsey was starting a young family and prioritized that.

UnwindedDreams

01-02-2021, 06:48 PM

Jeremy, Mick, John, Billy, Rick, and Neil all managed to record and tour while they had young children. Are you a parent? It's not as easy as saying others were able to record and tour.
Children are a gift and a father wants to be fully present for his wife and help her any way he can.
Springsteen did the same thing from 88 to late 91.

SteveMacD

01-02-2021, 07:50 PM

Are you a parent?
Whether or not I have children is irrelevant.

It's not as easy as saying others were able to record and tour.
Yeah, it really is, especially for a multimillionaire. As I said, it was his choice, his priority. I’m not critiquing the choice, but to have it used as an excuse is pretty disingenuous. Most parents, even ones with little babies, have to work. He had the luxury of being able to take time off and chose to do so.

bombaysaffires

01-02-2021, 08:12 PM

Jeremy, Mick, John, Billy, Rick, and Neil all managed to record and tour while they had young children. That was Lindsey’s choice, and that was his prerogative, but it had consequences to his career.

They recorded and toured while they had young children, that was their choice and was their prerogative, but it had consequences to the childhoods of their children. Depends which you think is more important.

bombaysaffires

01-02-2021, 08:16 PM

Whether or not I have children is irrelevant.

Yeah, it really is, especially for a multimillionaire. As I said, it was his choice, his priority. I’m not critiquing the choice, but to have it used as an excuse is pretty disingenuous. Most parents, even ones with little babies, have to work. He had the luxury of being able to take time off and chose to do so.

Most parents who work come home (however late or early) each day. Touring is a bit different, and once your kids are in school, them touring with you (not that on the road with a band, even a band that travels as well as FM, is a stable or amenable environment for young kids) is not an option.

Mick has real regrets about how his older kids were raised as he put his career above all else. To each their own.

elle

01-02-2021, 08:47 PM

Most parents who work come home (however late or early) each day. Touring is a bit different, and once your kids are in school, them touring with you (not that on the road with a band, even a band that travels as well as FM, is a stable or amenable environment for young kids) is not an option.

Mick has real regrets about how his older kids were raised as he put his career above all else. To each their own.

i see all of you riffing on this, but did Lindsey ever say that he chose to stay home / not tour / not record / whatever in those years? can anyone share an interview where he said that? or did someone just come up with that because of the overlap in timing? i don't think i've heard that in any interviews before.

also, Lindsey said on several occasions how it was easy to tour when kids were young and "portable" he said - because they could take them on the road. once they started to go to school that changed and it was not as easy. then he had to resort to facetiming home every day to stay in touch with his family.

aleuzzi

01-02-2021, 08:49 PM

SteveMacD

01-02-2021, 08:50 PM

They recorded and toured while they had young children, that was their choice and was their prerogative, but it had consequences to the childhoods of their children. Depends which you think is more important.
Mick’s daughters, John’s daughter, Billy’s sons, and especially Neil’s son seem none the worse for wear. Actually, Billy and Bekka themselves seem okay having grown up around it.

Most parents who work come home (however late or early) each day. Touring is a bit different, and once your kids are in school, them touring with you (not that on the road with a band, even a band that travels as well as FM, is a stable or amenable environment for young kids) is not an option.

Mick has real regrets about how his older kids were raised as he put his career above all else. To each their own.
Still, to use that as an excuse (which Lindsey himself isn’t doing, to be clear) is disingenuous. Countless artists have kids and tour. Lindsey chose not to, which is fine. Touring wasn’t exactly his thing to begin with.

elle

01-02-2021, 08:54 PM

I really love the bass/keyboard interplay on “Never Forget” (which I’m noticing more now that I’ve been studying the sheet music).

And I adore the vocal round at the end of “Honey Hi.”

[Just persisting in the delusion that a Christine thread can continue to be about Christine.]

:xoxo::xoxo:

i'll stop answering to distractions, sorry for adding my part to it so far.

i ADORE Think About Me. all recorded versions we've heard.

bombaysaffires

01-02-2021, 11:53 PM

Mick’s daughters, John’s daughter, Billy’s sons, and especially Neil’s son seem none the worse for wear. Actually, Billy and Bekka themselves seem okay having grown up around it.

Still, to use that as an excuse (which Lindsey himself isn’t doing, to be clear) is disingenuous. Countless artists have kids and tour. Lindsey chose not to, which is fine. Touring wasn’t exactly his thing to begin with.

why do you care?:shrug:

SteveMacD

01-02-2021, 11:57 PM

why do you care?:shrug:
I really don’t, but someone else brought it up. My only point was that Lindsey was largely absent from the public eye for five years after the reunion was over, compared to the other person who co-fronted Fleetwood Mac from 2001-13.

Netter75

01-03-2021, 12:05 AM

You know, if I had to pick ONE FM song, that's my song forever, it would be Think About Me. I love everything about that song!

It doesn't/didn't get the love it deserved.

Agreed, it's such a fun song. I didn't take to it right at first but its grown on me a lot over time.

I wish they did it live more often in their heyday! It seems like it would be a fun one in concert. Certainly more so than something like Over My Head.

My overall pick has to be Brown Eyes though. Simple and perfect. There's nothing about the song that I would change, its simply a MOOD.

aleuzzi

01-03-2021, 02:04 AM

Agreed, it's such a fun song. I didn't take to it right at first but its grown on me a lot over time.

I wish they did it live more often in their heyday! It seems like it would be a fun one in concert. Certainly more so than something like Over My Head.

My overall pick has to be Brown Eyes though. Simple and perfect. There's nothing about the song that I would change, its simply a MOOD.

Love “Brown Eyes.” What do you think of the earlier version called “Yesterday’s Tears” with the Peter Green guitar? I love her voice and the two guitars on that earlier version but I think the revised version has better (and sparer) words and the whole aura on the final take is pure sex.

aleuzzi

01-03-2021, 02:07 AM

:xoxo::xoxo:

i'll stop answering to distractions, sorry for adding my part to it so far.

i ADORE Think About Me. all recorded versions we've heard.

You don’t have to apologize, elle. I was, as the Brits like to say, “taking the mick” (which has nothing to do with Mick).

SteveMacD

01-03-2021, 02:53 AM

I was hoping Never Make Me Cry would be rearranged as an acoustic number for the LBCM tour.

HomerMcvie

01-03-2021, 10:22 AM

I wish they did it live more often in their heyday! It seems like it would be a fun one in concert. Certainly more so than something like Over My Head.

Over My Head was never a favorite of mine, EXCEPT for the "Live 1980" album. I LOVE that version! That rocking guitar intro!

UnwindedDreams

01-03-2021, 10:38 AM

Yeah, it really is, especially for a multimillionaire. As I said, it was his choice, his priority. I’m not critiquing the choice, but to have it used as an excuse is pretty disingenuous. Most parents, even ones with little babies, have to work. He had the luxury of being able to take time off and chose to do so.
As Springsteen had the luxury and chose to be there for Patti and his son and daughter.

It's quite judgmental to express that Lindsey absolutely could've released music and toured from 98-2001 as if pregnancies are all the same. You don't know what the home life was like. I respect that he was there for his family. He worked hard to earn his life and the ability to stay home. Distaste for Lindsey shouldn't have you express that he was lazy or couldn't handle being a father and "working".

Most parents don't get to choose their work hours either. Stevie complained about having to rehearse at 2:00pm because she got out of bed each day at 2:00pm.

If you want to compare Fleetwood Mac to real-world working people, you're going to be disappointed because Stevie Nicks complains about any career similarities to a Monday through Friday 9am-5pm.

UnwindedDreams

01-03-2021, 10:44 AM

Mick’s daughters, John’s daughter, Billy’s sons, and especially Neil’s son seem none the worse for wear. Neil's sons are working for their father too in Crowded House. A lot of privilege.

UnwindedDreams

01-03-2021, 10:51 AM

I was hoping Never Make Me Cry would be rearranged as an acoustic number for the LBCM tour.
Too bad it wasn't for the 2018-2019 Tour or Brown Eyes.

elle

01-03-2021, 01:12 PM

Love “Brown Eyes.” What do you think of the earlier version called “Yesterday’s Tears” with the Peter Green guitar? I love her voice and the two guitars on that earlier version but I think the revised version has better (and sparer) words and the whole aura on the final take is pure sex.

opposite here - really enjoyed that earlier / non-official version with Peter Green. it sounded so different to me.

talking about live versions, i'm not well versed in Tusk tour - what Christine Tusk songs did they do on that one?

i was happy that On With the Show tour in Australia and then i think back at Classics in 2017 had Think About Me, although was sad i never got to experience it live. it was not nearly as great as the recorded versions, but still, was glad they brought it back! by the time Lindsey and Christine did Hold Me in 2017, they really had these songs down. not to mention Hold Me 2017 was way better than those Mirage versions we've heard.

HomerMcvie

01-03-2021, 01:29 PM

talking about live versions, i'm not well versed in Tusk tour - what Christine Tusk songs did they do on that one?

i was happy that On With the Show tour in Australia and then i think back at Classics in 2017 had Think About Me, although was sad i never got to experience it live. it was not nearly as great as the recorded versions, but still, was glad they brought it back! by the time Lindsey and Christine did Hold Me in 2017, they really had these songs down. not to mention Hold Me 2017 was way better than those Mirage versions we've heard.

You know, for probably 20 years following Tusk, I remembered the set list. It's just been too long now. 42 years, kill me now! But hey, I was only 3yo! ;)
I DO remember that I loved their raw version of Hold Me.

2017? They dropped the key three steps, from D to B(so it just didn't sound the same, dropped by that much), and I'm 99% positive that Christine wasn't even playing the piano parts(nor Brett). Tracks. KARAOKE.

Homie f*cking hates karaoke. I mean, I'll take whatever Christine and Lindsey are offering me, but karaoke is f*cking LAME.

Macfan4life

01-03-2021, 01:44 PM

Over My Head was never a favorite of mine, EXCEPT for the "Live 1980" album. I LOVE that version! That rocking guitar intro!
Me too. OMG the song is a completely different song live back in the day. The tempo is so much faster and it works. Although the Live album version was recorded during the Rumours tour, correct? I believe its one of the several songs that was not recorded during the Tusk tour like Rhiannon and Dreams.
Also, Stevie did fantastic back ups back then without going overboard with her cokey screams or getting in the last word. The harmony live is incredible.

HomerMcvie

01-03-2021, 01:56 PM

Although the Live album version was recorded during the Rumours tour, correct? I believe its one of the several songs that was not recorded during the Tusk tour like Rhiannon and Dreams.

Also, Stevie did fantastic back ups back then without going overboard with her cokey screams or getting in the last word.

I don't remember. I'm in TN right now, and my album is in IN. If memory serves, the liner notes say where every track was recorded. I remember Don't Stop was at a Paris sound check.

God I hate her having to get in the last word. $he's so stupid.

elle

01-03-2021, 02:00 PM

You know, for probably 20 years following Tusk, I remembered the set list. It's just been too long now. 42 years, kill me now! But hey, I was only 3yo! ;)
I DO remember that I loved their raw version of Hold Me.

2017? They dropped the key three steps, from D to B(so it just didn't sound the same, dropped by that much), and I'm 99% positive that Christine wasn't even playing the piano parts(nor Brett). Tracks. KARAOKE.

Homie f*cking hates karaoke. I mean, I'll take whatever Christine and Lindsey are offering me, but karaoke is f*cking LAME.

heh i REALLY disliked live Hold Me versions from Mirage times. it was different from the recording (which was pop perfection), but not different in any rocking, good way. just sloppy, sad.

but yeah i know what you are saying with the backing tapes in 2017. i remember seeing one youtube vid where i think Christine actually did a part of the keyboard interlude and Lindsey looked at her with a proud smile... but yeah it was mostly pre-taped. i liked the way they sang it way better than back in the early 80s though. way better. happy. i was very pleased to hear it. guess i'm easily pleased :nod::] :laugh: :wavey:

HomerMcvie

01-03-2021, 02:14 PM

heh i REALLY disliked live Hold Me versions from Mirage times. it was different from the recording (which was pop perfection), but not different in any rocking, good way. just sloppy, sad.

but yeah i know what you are saying with the backing tapes in 2017. i remember seeing one youtube vid where i think Christine actually did a part of the keyboard interlude and Lindsey looked at her with a proud smile... but yeah it was mostly pre-taped. i liked the way they sang it way better than back in the early 80s though. way better. happy. i was very pleased to hear it. guess i'm easily pleased :nod::] :laugh: :wavey:
I figured you'd prefer PUNK Lindsey SCREAMING, "why don't you come on and a!" I loved it!

The Mirage show I saw was as close to heaven as I've ever been. :angel:

elle

01-03-2021, 02:49 PM

I figured you'd prefer PUNK Lindsey SCREAMING, "why don't you come on and a!" I loved it!

The Mirage show I saw was as close to heaven as I've ever been. :angel:

lmao it has to still be at least somewhat in tune / melodic.

that said i heard just a few [horrible] recordings. never was at the live Mirage show obviously. so what do i know! :shrug::angel:

HomerMcvie

01-03-2021, 03:05 PM

SteveMacD

01-03-2021, 03:31 PM

It's quite judgmental to express that Lindsey absolutely could've released music and toured from 98-2001 as if pregnancies are all the same.
Here’s Richard and Linda Thompson performing during a difficult pregnancy (https://youtu.be/0Bm4fZHv5j0), one that caused her to develop a dysphonia that requires Botox injections to be able to sing and talk. Still, they made one more album and did one more tour before splitting. Point is that it’s possible and not uncommon.

Distaste for Lindsey shouldn't have you express that he was lazy or couldn't handle being a father and "working".
Except I never said that. Quit putting words in my mouth.

michelej1

01-03-2021, 03:41 PM

Stevie said that after the Dance they were waiting for Christine to change her mind and that’s why they didn’t do anything.

UnwindedDreams

01-03-2021, 03:45 PM

Except I never said that. Quit putting words in my mouth. I said expressed, not said. Quit putting words in my mouth.

UnwindedDreams

01-03-2021, 03:52 PM

Here’s Richard and Linda Thompson performing during a difficult pregnancy (https://youtu.be/0Bm4fZHv5j0), one that caused her to develop a dysphonia that requires Botox injections to be able to sing and talk. Still, they made one more album and did one more tour before splitting. Point is that it’s possible and not uncommon.

I didn't say it wasn't possible. I said he was raising a family from 98 on and you responded with all these other guys who worked while having young kids. If you're not critiquing his choice, then it was unnecessary to talk about other guys who had young children and toured because I didn't say starting a family kept him from working.

How do we know that Kristen wasn't working while Lindsey stayed home with the children?

You really have dislike for Lindsey. Sorry you feel that way.

SteveMacD

01-03-2021, 04:11 PM

Stevie said that after the Dance they were waiting for Christine to change her mind and that’s why they didn’t do anything.

Still, the guys could have released Gift of Screws as Buckingham Fleetwood McVie and gotten at least something from the momentum of The Dance.

SteveMacD

01-03-2021, 04:24 PM

I didn't say it wasn't possible. I said he was raising a family from 98 on... because I didn't say starting a family kept him from working.
Nor had he, so why you felt the need to drag the discussion there is a bit of a mystery. Lindsey, to my knowledge, never said anything about taking time off to raise a family.

If you're not critiquing his choice
I was critiquing your point.

You really have dislike for Lindsey. Sorry you feel that way.

No. I like Lindsey and wouldn’t have a problem if he actually did say he wanted to have a normal family life for a few years. However, not capitalizing on the momentum from The Dance had consequences for his career. I can also say the same about Mick and John to some degree.

Macfan4life

01-03-2021, 04:44 PM

lmao it has to still be at least somewhat in tune / melodic.

that said i heard just a few [horrible] recordings. never was at the live Mirage show obviously. so what do i know! :shrug::angel:
Christine's live band in 1984 nailed Hold Me. She played the grand piano for the song. She also had 4 guys able to take backing vocals. It was pure perfection, even better than the Buck/Vie version IMHO. She did the album cut, not the alternate Mirage performance.
I have her live show on CD. It was professionally recorded and it is flawless. I also saw it live in concert. I wish it would end up on youtube like everything else.

UnwindedDreams

01-03-2021, 04:50 PM

Nor had he, so why you felt the need to drag the discussion there is a bit of a mystery. Lindsey, to my knowledge, never said anything about taking time off to raise a family.

I was critiquing your point.

No. I like Lindsey and wouldn’t have a problem if he actually did say he wanted to have a normal family life for a few years. However, not capitalizing on the momentum from The Dance had consequences for his career. I can also say the same about Mick and John to some degree.

I responded to this "What did he do immediately after all the pressers from The Dance/HOF were over" with a fact. Why critique a fact?

Also why to some degree for John? He didn't do anything but sail, right? Mick did an instrumental CDROM I think before they started recording SYW.

SteveMacD

01-03-2021, 06:34 PM

I responded to this "What did he do immediately after all the pressers from The Dance/HOF were over" with a fact. Why critique a fact?
I mean, I guess I could have said “professionally,” but I thought that went without saying. You’re throwing in an unknowable hypothetical red herring into the discussion (again). Ultimately, it doesn’t matter why he was publicly absent, it still had consequences for his career.

Also why to some degree for John? He didn't do anything but sail, right?
The three of them, by not releasing GoS and touring behind it as a spinoff entity sometime between 1998-2000, missed an opportunity to establish a viable way to operate without Stevie. I’m not saying they would have been arena rock or on par with Stevie’s success, but they could have still been profitable and not have their careers dependent on her. Instead, they pissed it away.

Mick did an instrumental CDROM I think before they started recording SYW.
That CD-ROM was just drum loops. I bought it with the intention of recording an album with them, credited to Fleetwood MacDougall, just to see how long before I got a cease and desist order...

michelej1

01-03-2021, 10:54 PM

Still, the guys could have released Gift of Screws as Buckingham Fleetwood McVie and gotten at least something from the momentum of The Dance.

I don’t disagree. Lindsey wastes a lot of time. That’s his thing. He could have an album out right now. He’s waiting for better marketing conditions. He wants to give it wider exposure. He wants to tour on his album. I just don’t think it’s that important at this stage in his life. Get the music out.

bombaysaffires

01-04-2021, 12:17 AM

SteveMacD

01-04-2021, 01:08 AM

I don’t disagree. Lindsey wastes a lot of time. That’s his thing. He could have an album out right now. He’s waiting for better marketing conditions. He wants to give it wider exposure. He wants to tour on his album. I just don’t think it’s that important at this stage in his life. Get the music out.

yeah, when you're 72, have a history of epilepsy and a recent heart attack, children you've gotten into (young) adulthood, WTF conditions are you holding out for that are going to miraculously return you to the 1970s charts?? Indeed, the argument could well be made that those who have put out new content in a pandemic when so much new content has been scuttled have gotten greater attention for the lack of competition...
This isn’t anything new and is kind of why I don’t think he would have made it without Stevie. If he doesn’t have someone to be professionally accountable to, he pisses all kind of time and opportunity away. Here are the studio albums between Tusk and SYW that Stevie and Lindsey weren’t on together.

Stevie

Bella Donna
The Wild Heart
Rock A Little
The Other Side of the Mirror
Behind the Mask
Street Angel
Trouble In Shangri La

Lindsey

Law & Order
Go Insane
Out of the Cradle

Now, here are the tours they weren’t on together from that same period.

Stevie

Bella Donna
The Wild Heart
Rock A Little
Shaking The Cage (TITN)
The Other Side of the Mirror
Behind the Mask
Timespace
Street Angel
Enchanted
Trouble In Shangri La

Lindsey

Out of the Cradle

michelej1

01-04-2021, 02:39 AM

But then Lindsey had a spurt of productivity and released UTS, GOS and SWS and toured. He also did BuckVie and toured, all in a very short time. He was bristling with momentum in his senior years until he was violently knocked down. Now he’s back to sitting on finished product.

UnwindedDreams

01-04-2021, 08:10 PM

I’m not saying they would have been arena rock or on par with Stevie’s success, but they could have still been profitable and not have their careers dependent on her. Instead, they pissed it away.
It is funny how she said she's not the boss of the band; she is. She could've said to Mick: I want to make an EP with Dave Stewart or Greg Kurstin producing and Chris Lord-Alge mixing before the 2018 tour just like we did in 2013.

I guess she was in for the tours from 09 and on for the money only. Not to sing with her oldest friend

UnwindedDreams

01-04-2021, 08:32 PM

Here are the studio albums between Tusk and SYW that Stevie and Lindsey weren’t on together.

Stevie

Behind the Mask
Trouble In Shangri La

Just a fact: Lindsey plays on I Miss You.
Not sure if his playing on Behind the Mask was done in the presence of Stevie.

SteveMacD

01-04-2021, 09:12 PM

I guess she was in for the tours from 09 and on for the money only. Not to sing with her oldest friend
I don’t think she’s been secretive about that. She’s actually said she doesn’t do albums because they don’t sell, but tours because they make a lot of money.

Just a fact: Lindsey plays on I Miss You.
Not sure if his playing on Behind the Mask was done in the presence of Stevie.
Yeah, I guess I don’t count cameos.

jbrownsjr

01-04-2021, 09:21 PM

Christine's live band in 1984 nailed Hold Me. She played the grand piano for the song. She also had 4 guys able to take backing vocals. It was pure perfection, even better than the Buck/Vie version IMHO. She did the album cut, not the alternate Mirage performance.
I have her live show on CD. It was professionally recorded and it is flawless. I also saw it live in concert. I wish it would end up on youtube like everything else.

Yes!!! It was so spot on in my show, too. The place went crazy when she did that because it was so well known and still rather current. (2 years)

UnwindedDreams

01-04-2021, 09:27 PM

I don’t think she’s been secretive about that. She’s actually said she doesn’t do albums because they don’t sell, but tours because they make a lot of money. Yes, for Fleetwood Mac I gathered she meant she doesn't do albums. For solo, she said she doesn't care if anyone buys it which I suppose is why she released the 24 Karat Gold Live CD at Target.

Yeah, I guess I don’t count cameos
Do you know if Lindsey recorded his guitar on BTM in 87?
I dont.

SteveMacD

01-04-2021, 10:20 PM

Do you know if Lindsey recorded his guitar on BTM in 87?
I dont.

It was 1989. I remember Rick talking about it. IIRC, he was either not in the studio that day or only briefly met him.

jbrownsjr

01-05-2021, 09:36 AM

It was 1989. I remember Rick talking about it. IIRC, he was either not in the studio that day or only briefly met him.

I love that he was on McVie's tune. Of course, Nicks showed up to the BTM sessions about as much as Tango.

David

01-05-2021, 01:11 PM

Stevie

Bella Donna
The Wild Heart
Rock A Little
The Other Side of the Mirror
Behind the Mask
Street Angel
Trouble In Shangri La

Lindsey

Law & Order
Go Insane
Out of the Cradle

Now, here are the tours they weren’t on together from that same period.

Stevie

Bella Donna
The Wild Heart
Rock A Little
Shaking The Cage (TITN)
The Other Side of the Mirror
Behind the Mask
Timespace
Street Angel
Enchanted
Trouble In Shangri La

Lindsey

Out of the Cradle
I don’t think more albums and tours would have had any commercial effect on Lindsey’s achievement. He could have put two albums out for every one of Stevie’s and still not have built an audience to rival hers. He simply does not have the mass appeal that she does. He functions best on every level as a personal, idiosyncratic musical voice with quirky aural references to pop, doo wop, jazz, roots, garage, alternative, Tin Pan Alley, and all sorts of styles that allow him to multitrack inventively and core into solitary, self-referential emotional states — none of which exactly makes for across-the-board appeal or casual listening. He has more in common with David Lynch and Eraserhead than just the hair.

The Macsters used to talk about how weird it was that they were all in the same band. Well, Lindsey is the weirdest of all: an abstruse contemporary artist in a workaday touring band with mega sales. That the blend created some great albums and exciting shows is really a miracle.

SteveMacD

01-05-2021, 10:58 PM

I don’t think more albums and tours would have had any commercial effect on Lindsey’s achievement.
The commercial success really isn’t the point. It’s more a commentary about the false narrative that Stevie owes everything to Lindsey.

Lindsey was bassist and vocalist in Fritz, but wasn’t the songwriter. Fritz was a high school band from San Francisco in the late ‘60s, where bands like Jefferson Airplane and Big Brother & The Holding Company reigned supreme. Having a girl who was popular at their high school in the band, especially one he knew he could sing with, was kind of an obvious move.

Yes, he bought some recording equipment with his aunt’s money and learned how to really play guitar while on his back. So what? There are countless musicians who buy studio equipment. Being a skillful guitarist who can sing and use studio equipment and who has great potential doesn’t equate to having a viable career in music.

Stevie is the one who had the ambition and drive to do something with it. She’d been writing for years, she was the one who pushed to move to Los Angeles, and is the one who pushed to join Fleetwood Mac.

After Tusk, Stevie used that drive and ambition to put herself with the right people to build a successful solo career. She had the discipline and was willing to put in the sweat equity to develop herself as a viable entity outside of the band. Meanwhile, Lindsey locked himself in the studio for years on end. He made great albums, but they were few and far between, especially after 1987, and he rarely did any publicity, beyond music videos, save for the 1993 tour. In other words, without a driving force to which he had to be accountable, i.e. Stevie or Fleetwood Mac, Lindsey got lost in his eccentricities. Who’s to say that without Stevie, he wouldn’t have gotten lost in those same eccentricities when he was still in San Francisco?

David

01-06-2021, 01:33 PM

The commercial success really isn’t the point.

And then you give me four paragraphs about commercial success.

It’s more a commentary about the false narrative that Stevie owes everything to Lindsey.Yes, that’s rather an overstatement. But it wasn’t my overstatement. Stevie has mass-appeal qualities and charisma that Lindsey has nothing to do with.

Stevie is the one who had the ambition and drive to do something with it. After Tusk, Stevie used that drive and ambition to put herself with the right people to build a successful solo career. She had the discipline and was willing to put in the sweat equity to develop herself as a viable entity outside of the band.You seem to be insisting that Lindsey could have garnered a Stevie-size audience by having more ambition and drive to build an audience. But I say that he could have done twice the work she did and still not built an audience her size. It was intangibles that put her across so spectacularly: her beauty, her emotive power as a singer, her visual trip, her self-mythologizing, and her sexuality. If Stevie Nicks had done everything that Stevie Nicks did, but happened to look like Lisa Lampanelli, her audience appeal would have been sizably diminished.

Who’s to say that without Stevie, he wouldn’t have gotten lost in those same eccentricities when he was still in San Francisco? Possibly, or he would have continued to find session work and tour support work, which he was already doing. If Fleetwood Mac hadn’t picked him up, another band might have — and not agreed to take her, too. However small a scale (like a solo Everly tour), he was finding work in music. Stevie at the same time was finding no work in music.

michelej1

01-07-2021, 02:33 AM

The idea that Lindsey had no ambition is a canard in the first place. No, he wasn’t practicing his autograph or shopping in the Velvet Underground for the costumes he would be wearing in the future. He was driving himself to a career in the music industry. He was forming contacts and honing his craft. He was already arranging and producing songs that are ubiquitous 50 years later. He was being selective about his choices. He didn’t want to play steak houses. He wanted to do things that would gain him respect and gain him gradual recognition. He had ambition, his simply differed from Stevie’s. He may not have been headed towards glitter and record-breaking sales, but he was headed towards solid success in the business.

Fleetwood Mac made him a star and Stevie is not the reason he got into Fleetwood Mac. It was not her “ambition” that caught Mick’s ear.

jbrownsjr

01-07-2021, 12:25 PM

And then you give me four paragraphs about commercial success.

You seem to be insisting that Lindsey could have garnered a Stevie-size audience by having more ambition and drive to build an audience. But I say that he could have done twice the work she did and still not built an audience her size. It was intangibles that put her across so spectacularly: her beauty, her emotive power as a singer, her visual trip, her self-mythologizing, and her sexuality. If Stevie Nicks had done everything that Stevie Nicks did, but happened to look like Lisa Lampanelli, her audience appeal would have been sizably diminished.

This made my day!!!!! :xoxo: It's funny because it's true. And the word "sizably", made your point genius!

bwboy

01-07-2021, 03:32 PM

Brown Eyes is probably my favorite, but Warm Ways is such a beautiful song. I can’t pick just one, c’mon. Plus As Long As a you Follow. I guess on any given day, I would pick one of these 3 songs as my favorite.

Her work with Greg Landanyi is incredibly good, too, right up there with anything from her work with the Rumours era band.

HomerMcvie

01-07-2021, 04:01 PM

This made my day!!!!! :xoxo: It's funny because it's true. And the word "sizably", made your point genius!

It really is true. If $he'd been Mama Cass, she'd have been a footnote in history. I mean, $he was Mama Cass for a while, but people remember the hottie from the 70's.

jbrownsjr

01-07-2021, 05:59 PM

It really is true. If $he'd been Mama Cass, she'd have been a footnote in history. I mean, $he was Mama Cass for a while, but people remember the hottie from the 70's.

I loved Mama Cass!!

HomerMcvie

01-07-2021, 09:51 PM

I loved Mama Cass!!

So you're not golden!!!:rolleyes:

michelej1

01-07-2021, 11:34 PM

I loved Mama Cass!!

I was listening to a Johnny Carson show on Sirius. Mama Cass was a guest and it was shortly before her death. I learned she had so many health problems just before her death. She had already passed out. She has been hospitalized. It’s sad that people remember her for choking on food, as if she died simply because of gluttony. That really wasn’t the case.

michelej1

01-08-2021, 02:11 AM

Since you guys brought up Mama Cass we must look at Michelle Phillips. Attractive, in a band with hit songs, but never came close to Stevie Nicks’ success.

It’s not just the way Stevie looked. Stevie’s got/had something inside. But when the spell is broken for you, it’s like you pulled the cloth from Dorian Gray’s picture and you can never unsee the visage.

HomerMcvie

01-08-2021, 02:21 AM

Macfan4life

01-08-2021, 07:11 AM

I was listening to a Johnny Carson show on Sirius. Mama Cass was a guest and it was shortly before her death. I learned she had so many health problems just before her death. She had already passed out. She has been hospitalized. It’s sad that people remember her for choking on food, as if she died simply because of gluttony. That really wasn’t the case.
Yes, the story was she choked on a ham sandwich. That was not true. It was a silly assumption because of her weight. She died of a drug overdose. Her manager did not want to world to know so he came up with the ham sandwich excuse. Sadly because of her weight the story had legs. Her manager was trying to to save her reputation.
David Crosby stated they were majorly into heroin because it was so widely available in London.

The story of The Mamas and the Papas is probably the most interesting story in rock. They were hippies of the time and living the love life. They were not sure where to go in their life and make music. So they blindfolded one of the members and told him or her (forget which member it was) and throw a dart at a map of the world. The dart hit the US Virgin Islands. The band went there and started becoming popular. However, Mama Cass could not harmonize with the band and was cut. She was devastated but they felt her singing was not good. One day Cass suffered a major head injury and spent time in the hospital. Suddenly the band said her singing got better and could harmonize with them so she was welcomed back into the band.
You just cant make this stuff up. Their story is incredible.

bwboy

01-08-2021, 08:07 AM

Since you guys brought up Mama Cass we must look at Michelle Phillips. Attractive, in a band with hit songs, but never came close to Stevie Nicks’ success.

I’d never thought about the comparison, but since you brought it up, it’s interesting how similar their looks were. Not identical, but definitely they both represented that California woman look, with their blond hair blowing in the wind. I’m surprised I hadn't noticed that before. Michelle Phillips seemed more interested in acting, having a few roles in the 70s before finally joining Knots Landing, which is where I became a fan. Isn’t she Chyna Phillip’s mother, who was in Wilson Phillips? I think I read somewhere that when Wilson Phillips auditioned for their record label, they sang Wild Heart by Stevie Nicks, and I know they covered Go Your Own Way somewhere.

bwboy

01-08-2021, 08:11 AM

Yes, the story was she choked on a ham sandwich. That was not true. It was a silly assumption because of her weight. She died of a drug overdose. Her manager did not want to world to know so he came up with the ham sandwich excuse. Sadly because of her weight the story had legs. Her manager was trying to to save her reputation.

This reminds me of a nasty joke that made the rounds back in the day- it’s rude but relates to this now apparently false story. The joke went Karen Carpenter died of anorexia and Mama Cass died choking on a sandwich- if Mama Cass had given her sandwich to Karen Carpenter, they would both still be alive.