Problem Muslims

[becca]

Canada is preoccupied lately with the group of young people who plotted in Al-Q fashion to blow up and behead in Toronto and Ottawa. I think most of us wish that Muslim-Canadians would be more a part of Canada in that they will alert if not deal with problems they are uniquely aware of within their culture and/or community. I think many are offended at Muslims whose reactions to Muslim violence is to tell Canadians to look at the situation we have created. Who say we need to understand Islam. Well, like Holland, Canada in the later half of the twentieth century has traditionally been very liberal and welcoming. There are no white people in Indonesia and Muslims are blowing up stuff and people there, so I don't think we are much of the problem at all and that the problem is something from a culture outside of Canada or Holland. I have done quite a bit in learning about Islam actually, but coming into my country and demanding I learn and conform to you and your foreign religion is not very balanced, or much of a solution to the problems you bring here. Holland had a political candidate killed by a proclaimed Muslim. They have since taken the unprecedented for them steps of requiring Muslim immigrants to learn Dutch, to conform to the scales of bodily exposure and social institutions they have, or else you are deported, to somewhere more hospital to your culture. If I go to Saudi Arabia I do not dare drink, or show my hair or body much. The fact that U.S. forces on their bases in S.A. did drink and have skin magazines etc. has been used as grounds for the current holy war, that the infidels defiled their land. It is looking like we may well have to demand some changes of Muslims to fit in within our countries. In canada we have even allowed Sikh youths to carry daggers into schools as supposed religious and cultural symbols, but the tide will turn if we keep getting back to much accusations and blame and lawsuits, just as it has in Holland where they are deporting thousands of Muslims who will not conform. I would love to have people be free to dress and live as they choose, but if they are going to be so little a part of our society I have no idea why they would want to be here at all and live so aggrieved and offended. I think we just want to be met half way. If you have problems with Holland and Denmark and Canada about intolerance, well, I think it is you who have something to learn. Right now what people are learning is that it may be time to rethink our openness. It's a sad time when that's what we are thinking. :(

Eastern cultures often do not allow Mothers to control their sons in any way. this a problem over there and everywhere else they are, with Palestinian teens throwing rocks in streets decade after decade, and Hindu men demanding huge dowries for arranged marriage brides they care nothing for. Leaving Mothers out of social power is not part of our western culture, and doing so is not welcomed here anymore than removing parts of female genitalia. There are a few things, but mainly violence, that we cannot accept here. I am proud to be Canadian for the most part and I think we usually do well at seeing our faults, but we need to be met half way at this time. We do not owe any uimmigrant any percentage of jobs or opportunities just for coming here or minorities for merely being born. We have a great debt to Native Americans, but that does not equate to all non-white people. I think that distinction needs to be made by the most lib eral people in our country at this time. We have given a lot to and we have gotten a lot from people of other cultures and I hpe we remain accountable. But when a person of your culture does something wrong the best reaction is not to blame people of a very different culture for not giving even more, you will break our backs as you have apparently broken Holland's and France's. Do we have a problem like this with Hungarians? Do we have a problem like this with Buddhists? You learn to discriminate in order to survive in the real world, if you have bad experiences with a certain kind of person you will avoid people similar to them. The world is learning to not want Muslims. Maybe you all should try learning about us or if not stay where only your culture is dominant.

[DavidMn]

I just wish there was a way to find the terrorists and take them out without harming innocent muslim people. The F**KIN terrorists make it hard cause they use every advantage they can, I.E looking as much like normal as possible to avoid detection.

[irishgrl]

Muslim culture as a whole needs to accept responsibility for the acts of these radicals. Either by refusing to educate their young in the ways of hate or ...or by standing up to these radicals and point blank telling them their agenda wont be tolerated any longer.

Becca, it took a lot of guts to post what you did, and I salute you.

[becca]

Becca, it took a lot of guts to post what you did, and I salute you.

It's pretty much just a reflection of what people are talking about here the last two weeks. We need to know about how Muslim community groups are helping or serving non-muslims, because anyone can protect and support their immediate family but it's more of a virtue to include and consider those outside your immediate realtionships which I think most all kinds of people in our country do except for this one. If you didn't come to bring something as well as to take it's not surprising if you become ostracized. I see Greek groups and Chinese groups and many others reaching out across communities, most east Asian groups seem to be more recognized for their bringing battles with each other here and we have had violence at Mosques in particular for years. We have had some sporadic trouble with Sikh and also with Vietnamese but nothing like we have had with Muslim communities even before 9/11/01. Almost everyone is saying we need to rethink some things about multiculturalism now in order to protect it as a positive position ultimately.

[strandinthewind]

Muslim culture as a whole needs to accept responsibility for the acts of these radicals. Either by refusing to educate their young in the ways of hate or ...or by standing up to these radicals and point blank telling them their agenda wont be tolerated any longer.

Becca, it took a lot of guts to post what you did, and I salute you.

I agree - I think the Muslim world wants it both ways. When I watch the news, I see streets filled with violence and most or that is against us. But, then they claim most are peaceful. Those two do not mesh. I totally get that many if not most Muslims, like Christians, are peaceful and that the Christian world has been unfair, to say the least, to Muslims over the last many thousands of years. But, education of the past is the past and let's look toward the future is the way to go - and that applies equally to Muslims and Christians. Thoush, I must say, I cannot recollect any non-retaliation violence against Muslims by Christians in recent history. I do recollect, however, 9/11 and though that was roughly due to a rouge sect, thousands of Muslims were seen on tv rejoicing in the streets - that is hard to reconcile

[David]

I agreeI disagree. Those who pull the triggers or fly the planes or pull the pins out of grenades are the ones who are ultimately responsible, as well as those who issue such orders--which couldn't possibly include every Muslim. However, I'm curious about the varieties of Muslim teaching worldwide & certainly critical of emphatic support for terrorism & murder.

Think of the way some Arabs or Europeans blame "Americans" for all this warfare the United States is waging. I'm an American but I don't accept responsibility for dropping bombs in Afghanistan or Vietnam--even if I were to voice my support for such actions (which I happen not to).

[strandinthewind]

^^^^

I agree the ultimate responsibility is with the ones doing the act. But, I am not talking about that. I am talking about the obvious rejoicing in the Muslim world when these acts are done. I get that it is not all of the Muslim world and that many if not most may find such acts horrible and outside the faith. I am just saying that so many seem to want to high five such acts is disarming and that sort of euphoria really does not exist in the Christian world. It seems like it is almost promoted in the Middle East - though I am loathe to admit that less I become a total cynic.

Disclaimer - I am most definitely not saying that Christians are not responsible for that animosity. I am just saying the Christian aggression was a very long time ago.

Interestingly, the argument is often made that the US and rest of the world's aggression is different in that though there are no more real crusades, the advancement of business interests in the Middle East is the same. While I think there is some truth to that argument, the resentment and retailiation is too extreme. Plus, and I know this is not a popular argument here but it is the truth, cultures advance and decline. The world's culture now is the advancement of US and European economic interests and the advancement of those interests has, while fattening the US, greatly benefitted these countries in terms of medical care, economics, etc. I mean it seems as if on the one hand, people scream out that the US and European countries should give hand outs to the poorer countries. Yet, when the US and European countries try to stablize these poorer economies through the advancement of our businesses, they get pissed. That just does not sit well with me.

[irishgrl]

I disagree. Those who pull the triggers or fly the planes or pull the pins out of grenades are the ones who are ultimately responsible, as well as those who issue such orders--which couldn't possibly include every Muslim. However, I'm curious about the varieties of Muslim teaching worldwide & certainly critical of emphatic support for terrorism & murder.

Think of the way some Arabs or Europeans blame "Americans" for all this warfare the United States is waging. I'm an American but I don't accept responsibility for dropping bombs in Afghanistan or Vietnam--even if I were to voice my support for such actions (which I happen not to).

When you have cultures that look the other way or actively support hate-schools such as Madrassas that churn out fanatic after fanatic, then I blame the culture. You cant excuse that kind of activity. you cant turn a blind eye, and you sure as hell shouldnt be supporting it monetarily or by sending your kids there....Regimes that pay "protection" money to terrorists to avoid being toppled (House of Saud anyone?) are just as bad as the terrorists for extorting the Regimes.

And if the moderates really do deplore the terrorists activities why dont they DO something? Why is the predictable response (no matter the crime) to blame the West? or Israel? How would the Muslims feel if the West made threats to wipe THEM off the face of the earth the way they do about Israel and the US? Make no mistake, these folks are deadly serious; and because they infuse their earthly acts with spiritual significance, they fool themselves into thinking they are "holy warriors" fighting the evil West/Israel.

[becca]

As far as rejoicing, you have to look at the media exaggerating things by repeating one image over and over... like thise Palestinian kids jumping around happy supposedly because the WTC was destroyed (as opposed to say the fact that they had just been given a lot of candy); you would think that all these little kids in Palestine were celebrating death and destruction. That is just a very blatant example. Al Jazeera does the same thing showing civillian casualties that aren't even shown much over here at all, nor including the fact when they are being used by insurgent guerillas as human shields. Also some Arabic networks love to cover the history of the western Crusades of the middle ages and our TLC, Discovery Channel, History Channel or A&E has had as many shows just about the WTC bombing. In Canada like England we are sometimes in a good position to see both sides' coverage of things but getting two extremes isn't the best way to find the middle always.

[becca]

you sure as hell shouldnt be supporting it monetarily or by sending your kids there....Regimes that pay "protection" money to terrorists to avoid being toppled (House of Saud anyone?) are just as bad as the terrorists for extorting the Regimes.

It's taken awhile for many western nations to become really aware of what Hamas was doing with funds raised, and that it was barely charitable at all in the first place (Al Capone ran soup kitchens and Hells Angels have toys for kids drives), but I think it's been stapled to the right political foreheads politically. A lot of politicians all the way back to NYC mayor Boss Tweed at Tammanhy Hall have pandered to and used minority groups for votes/power. Divide and conquer, and it has undermined the U.S. and Canada at times. In Canada we still have government tax dollar paid for ads wanting to help immigrant and visible minorites to find jobs... free! It may be a quick way to gain votes for some party under the guise of the public good, but this kind of thing will inevitably lead to resentment, just as if you find your business threatened when some government job creation tax dollar grant has gone to someone who opens the exact same kind of business as you have across the street from you (and meanwhile your property and business taxes have tripled in ten years and you get held up and broken into more and more, as often as not by white homeless and unemployables). It's really been amazing to see how the republican party of the U.S. has gone from less government and spending to the opposite; big beauracracy and record deficits (starting with Reagan and the thousand dollar coffee pots resulting from blank checks to the military procurers and supplier).

[irishgrl]

As far as rejoicing, you have to look at the media exaggerating things by repeating one image over and over... like thise Palestinian kids jumping around happy supposedly because the WTC was destroyed (as opposed to say the fact that they had just been given a lot of candy); you would think that all these little kids in Palestine were celebrating death and destruction.
Im inclined to think they were as a matter of fact :shrug: these kids are taught to HATE at a very young age. Whats more, they are trained to fight and kill, and told that they are "holy warriors" and that they will be rewarded for their acts should they die in the attempt. There's no shortage of suicide bombers and now, even the women want to get in on the act.

IMO, this hatred of the West is a deep seated resentment of the fact that the Ottoman Empire is no more. The sun has set on the Arab/Muslim empire and they cant get past it. There is nothing we can do to appease them because our very existence is proof of the triumph of Western ways...

[irishgrl]

It's taken awhile for many western nations to become really aware of what Hamas was doing with funds raised, and that it was barely charitable at all in the first place (Al Capone ran soup kitchens and Hells Angels have toys for kids drives), but I think it's been stapled to the right political foreheads politically. A lot of politicians all the way back to NYC mayor Boss Tweed at Tammanhy Hall have pandered to and used minority groups for votes/power. Divide and conquer, and it has undermined the U.S. and Canada at times. In Canada we still have government tax dollar paid for ads wanting to help immigrant and visible minorites to find jobs... free! It may be a quick way to gain votes for some party under the guise of the public good, but this kind of thing will inevitably lead to resentment, just as if you find your business threatened when some government job creation tax dollar grant has gone to someone who opens the exact same kind of business as you have across the street from you (and meanwhile your property and business taxes have tripled in ten years and you get held up and broken into more and more, as often as not by white homeless and unemployables). It's really been amazing to see how the republican party of the U.S. has gone from less government and spending to the opposite; big beauracracy and record deficits (starting with Reagan and the thousand dollar coffee pots resulting from blank checks to the military procurers and supplier).


the GOP have managed to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that "absolute power corrupts absolutely."

if it werent so tragic what they've done to this country, it'd be a real howl....

[becca]

There's no shortage of suicide bombers and now, even the women want to get in on the act.

It's such an extreme thing to try to understand at all that's for sure, but a lot of money (Saudi originated often) is involved too. But even without that there always seems to be some weirdly submissive person around to die for an emporer or a flag, whether we call them the universal soldier or a true believer the results are pretty negative. Muslims way way back attempted to dismantle the great pyramids of Egypt in order to make them into moques that would glorify Allah rather than the infidel structures that were an affront. Mind you, western people later just plundered for the purpose of selling old stuff to rich collectors and western museums.

[irishgrl]

It's such an extreme thing to try to understand at all that's for sure, but a lot of money (Saudi originated often) is involved too. But even without that there always seems to be some weirdly submissive person around to die for an emporer or a flag, whether we call them the universal soldier or a true believer the results are pretty negative. Muslims way way back attempted to dismantle the great pyramids of Egypt in order to make them into moques that would glorify Allah rather than the infidel structures that were an affront. Mind you, western people later just plundered for the purpose of selling old stuff to rich collectors and western museums.

I cant imagine this world without the pyramids...Im glad they didnt succeed in such a foolish venture...

[tommer]

of course the west did (and still does) countless mistakes in treating the muslim world. but still, i don't think that it matters that much; the muslim world's organized resentment to the west is encouraged in every formal and informal method, in order to cover and disguise the main issues and deep problems facing their societies- the absence of democracy and freedom of speech, the deep and agonizing poverty, lack of human rights, limited higher education facilities, mistreatment of women ect...
the inability (or unwillingness) to face all those issues is the main problem, and channeling societie's anger and hatred towards the west in general, and israel in particular is its easy "solution".

[strandinthewind]

As far as rejoicing, you have to look at the media exaggerating things by repeating one image over and over... like thise Palestinian kids jumping around happy supposedly because the WTC was destroyed (as opposed to say the fact that they had just been given a lot of candy); you would think that all these little kids in Palestine were celebrating death and destruction. That is just a very blatant example. Al Jazeera does the same thing showing civillian casualties that aren't even shown much over here at all, nor including the fact when they are being used by insurgent guerillas as human shields. Also some Arabic networks love to cover the history of the western Crusades of the middle ages and our TLC, Discovery Channel, History Channel or A&E has had as many shows just about the WTC bombing. In Canada like England we are sometimes in a good position to see both sides' coverage of things but getting two extremes isn't the best way to find the middle always.

With all due respect (and I have bunches for you :wavey: ) I agree the media does play it up, but that cannot erase the images of the thousands shown on all reporting sources.

And - we agree (I think) the problem is with the education of both sides and the mass media's lack thereof.

In the end, I say if we are all to survivie on this planet, it will take looking to a peaceful future and forgetting the past, as hard as that may be. Revenge never solves any problems.

[strandinthewind]

. . . And if the moderates really do deplore the terrorists activities why dont they DO something? Why is the predictable response (no matter the crime) to blame the West? or Israel? How would the Muslims feel if the West made threats to wipe THEM off the face of the earth the way they do about Israel and the US? Make no mistake, these folks are deadly serious; and because they infuse their earthly acts with spiritual significance, they fool themselves into thinking they are "holy warriors" fighting the evil West/Israel.

I agree in that America lacks the sand to confront Saudi Arabia (how many 9/11 participants were from there) and the other true states that support these people or at least turn a blind eye.

Yet, as long as the last drop of oil is there - we will never, unless the Captains and the Kings think they can take the oil or find some other way to profit from it a la Iraq.

[strandinthewind]

of course the west did (and still does) countless mistakes in treating the muslim world. but still, i don't think that it matters that much; the muslim world's organized resentment to the west is encouraged in every formal and informal method, in order to cover and disguise the main issues and deep problems facing their societies- the absence of democracy and freedom of speech, the deep and agonizing poverty, lack of human rights, limited higher education facilities, mistreatment of women ect...
the inability (or unwillingness) to face all those issues is the main problem, and channeling societie's anger and hatred towards the west in general, and israel in particular is its easy "solution".

Israel is a very easy target and that is unfortunate. Is Israel somewhat responsible, who can say for sure - after all some of its actions were IMO reprehensible. But, even so, Israel is what the vast majority of the world supports - and mostly correctly so IMO - esp. after the passage of so much time. So, again, I say if people could somehow forget and look to the future, the world could be safe again. Sadly, I have not that faith in hummanity, at least in my lifetime.

[irishgrl]

I agree in that America lacks the sand to confront Saudi Arabia (how many 9/11 participants were from there) and the other true states that support these people or at least turn a blind eye.

Yet, as long as the last drop of oil is there - we will never, unless the Captains and the Kings think they can take the oil or find some other way to profit from it a la Iraq.
dont you know? its part of the master plan to deplete the Middle East's resources and thereby eliminate them as a player on the world stage! While all the time, we are stockpiling domestic oil reserves in underground storage facilities

[Gailh]

^^^^

Disclaimer - I am most definitely not saying that Christians are not responsible for that animosity. I am just saying the Christian aggression was a very long time ago.



We do have a habit in the west of describing any acts of violence undertaken by followers of the islamic faith as "muslim" and very rarely western violence as "christian".

For example in the former Yugoslavia the Bosnians were routinely described as "muslims" but the Serbs were not described as "christians"

I am not an apologist for any terrorist but do islamic fundamentalists truly reflect the muslim faith any more than IRA terrorists reflected the catholic faith? The day after 9/11 I was in France but able to still listen to the BBC on the radio and I heard a muslim cleric roundly condemning the attack as being anti muslim. He quoted from the Koran to back this up. Unfortunately that doesn't always get much publicity (in the UK anyway) whereas the celebrations in the Palestinian territories were shown all over the media.

I have nothing in particular against islam. I think all religions are antiquated superstitions designed to keep the poor and especially the women under control.

I am sorry if this offends any religious people on this board but you only have to look at the trouble and violence religions have caused over the years.

I do however believe that anyone has the right to practice whatever religion they like - as long as they don't break the law of the country they live in or try and persuade me to think like them.

Gail

[irishgrl]

I do however believe that anyone has the right to practice whatever religion they like - as long as they don't break the law of the country they live in or try and persuade me to think like them.

very nicely put. I would add that the prohibition against law breaking should extend to univerally accepted laws in EVERY country, such as those against murder etc (basically the whole "10 Commandments" enchilada....)

[becca]

Mmmmmmmmmm... enchiladas.... whole enchiladas...