Brokeback Mountain Review and Response

[sparky]

It was not easy, but I did it. I got in to see this movie.
It is only playing in one theatre in town, on three screens. The first show was 12:01 Friday morning/Thursday evening. Every show yesterday was sold out except for 11:45 p.m. Then they added a midnight show.

To be honest, I don't know how in depth, detailed, or eloquent I can be at this moment. I read the story upon which the film is based years ago. I avoided all the reviews because I didn't quite remember the details of some of it, especially the last section. It has been difficult to avoid the hubbub in the press, but I have noticed the words that are being trumpeted about. Astonishing. Epic. Heartbreaking. Revolutionary. Masterpiece.

All of the above and more.

I have quite simply never seen a film that moved me to this degree. There has never been a film about this particular subject. Not with this backdrop, depth, quality and meaning. Not that I have seen. As far as I am concerned, this is the first love story about two men that has even been made. I have seen all the indie gay movies since the 70's. They had their moments, but this is another animal entirely. This not a gay movie. It is so much bigger than that.

Nearly every aspect of this film is graceful, sharp, honest, and beautiful. Ang Lee paces it to unfold and grow as the relationship intensifies. It is never rushed. It moves very slowly in parts, and as the story propels and draws you in, it traps you as surely as the lead characters are trapped.

I could go on about the camera work, the writing, the careful direction, the authentic design, the devastating score. It was all top notch art. The only drawback was some of the makeup. A minor quibble. When I noticed that, I was so absorbed in the story I was on the verge of cracking in half in my chair.

This film captures the irresistable force of love in such a powerful, aching manner, that it made me feel I had never seen two people onscreen in love before. The characters, and their plight, will haunt me for years to come. At this point, I am exhausted and a bit out of it. Therefore I can no longer hear the theme music playing on a loop in my head. It is a good thing, because if I could still hear that music, it is likely I would be sobbing as I write.

This film is a landmark. It made my guts buzz, my heart yearn, and my entire identity rattle. I don't know that it will ever be far from my mind.

[BombaySapphire3]

Yeah it's only playing at one theatre here too.I'm going to see it in a few hours my date bought tickets 3 days ago but I guess we'd better get there early anyway.

[ThePenguin]

Thanks for your review. i really want to go see this movie, i have only heard great things about it.

And that Jake is such a hottie. :)

-Lis

[strandinthewind]

Wow - that makes me even more anxious to see it!!!!

I am going to see it next weekend and plan to carry a wad of tissue into it along with my popcorn.

[Rickypt]

**I deleted my post as I realized almost nobody has seen this film yet and it's hard to give my review without giving up too much info**

Suffice to say, a beautiful film but it didn't live up to the hype in my opinion. I didn't find the relationship to be well developed.

[sparky]

Wow - that makes me even more anxious to see it!!!!

I am going to see it next weekend and plan to carry a wad of tissue into it along with my popcorn.

It is honestly not as bad during as it is after. I ? Couldn't get out of my seat.
Then I sat in my truck for 10 minutes before I wanted to drive. I dreamed about it. I woke up thinking about it. No joke.
Now I have to finish getting ready to entertain about 50 people. And I will need to be the perfect host. Wish me luck.

[Serrart]

It is honestly not as bad during as it is after. I ? Couldn't get out of my seat.
Then I sat in my truck for 10 minutes before I wanted to drive. I dreamed about it. I woke up thinking about it. No joke.
Now I have to finish getting ready to entertain about 50 people. And I will need to be the perfect host. Wish me luck.

I'm really happy for Ang Lee, probably he won't win at the Oscars but he's proving more and more what an incredible director he is.

Romy

[BombaySapphire3]

I'm really happy for Ang Lee, probably he won't win at the Oscars but he's proving more and more what an incredible director he is.

Romy
I just saw it .I think it will be a strong contender for best picture at the oscars and definately a nod and possibly a win for Heath with Ang Lee being more of a long shot but he will get a nomination I'd wager.I think the film more than lived up to it's hype, I have teared up in films before but never can I remember being frozen in my seat and gripping the arm chairs so hard my hands went numb.I don't think judging by the reactions of others around me that I was the only one that had such a visceral reaction.I'll stop now because I don't want to give away anything for those that have not seen the film .I just have to say I have seen many.many films in my life and never have I had a reaction to one quite like this.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

This film is a landmark. It made my guts buzz, my heart yearn, and my entire identity rattle. I don't know that it will ever be far from my mind.

That is the exact same response I had after watching "Glitter"...I just didn't get the hate!?!? :confused: :laugh:


But seriously...sounds like an awesome movie...will have to see for myself soon! :)

[sparky]

Funny, I had everyone leave my house just now. After a nearly all night party.
I attempted to explain this film to a number of people. In the interest of not spoiling the plot, I attempted to explain the gravity of the film. I am not convinced I am capable of communicating it to anyone. After hearing one response from Rickypt saying the relationship was not well developed, I had to just shake my head. I have never seen a depiction of two people in love that had more depth, more authenticity, or more genuine emotion in my life.

I can scarcely even discuss this film without my eyes welling with tears. It has affected me like no other book, film, or piece of art I have ever encountered. It pains me to say that the melody of the theme song, and the final images of the film have recurred in my head and I simply cannot stop crying.

[sara1998]

Funny, I had everyone leave my house just now. After a nearly all night party.
I attempted to explain this film to a number of people. In the interest of not spoiling the plot, I attempted to explain the gravity of the film. I am not convinced I am capable of communicating it to anyone. After hearing one response from Rickypt saying the relationship was not well developed, I had to just shake my head. I have never seen a depiction of two people in love that had more depth, more authenticity, or more genuine emotion in my life.

I can scarcely even discuss this film without my eyes welling with tears. It has affected me like no other book, film, or piece of art I have ever encountered. It pains me to say that the melody of the theme song, and the final images of the film have recurred in my head and I simply cannot stop crying.
Gosh, Sparky, you're breaking my heart just reading your responses to this movie. If anything, I'll have to see it just based on your reaction.

[Rickypt]

After hearing one response from Rickypt saying the relationship was not well developed, I had to just shake my head.

There's two of us who feel this way, me and my friend who saw it with me. I'm sure we'll be in the very small minority. It's impossible to get into it without revealing details--maybe when more people see it, there can be a discussion. I just feel like we didn't witness enough of the development of the relationship to truly understand its depth.

That said, it's definitely a stunningly beautiful movie with fantastic acting (particularly Ledger and Michelle Williams--she was my favorite character). Maybe if it wasn't hyped as such a masterpiece, I would have had a different reaction.

But I'm very moved by your reaction, Sparky. I have had similar reactions to other movies and plays and I marvel at the power of art to halt us in our tracks sometimes.

[BombaySapphire3]

Originally posted by Rickypt
That said, it's definitely a stunningly beautiful movie with fantastic acting (particularly Ledger and Michelle Williams--she was my favorite character). Maybe if it wasn't hyped as such a masterpiece, I would have had a different reaction.

I forgot to add Michelle Williams as am almost certain contender for best supporting actress.

[DavidMn]

I'm gonna see it this coming weekend if everyhing goes well. It's onlt playing at one place here too.:(

[dontlookdown]

everything Ang Lee does is great

[sparky]

There's two of us who feel this way, me and my friend who saw it with me. I'm sure we'll be in the very small minority. It's impossible to get into it without revealing details--maybe when more people see it, there can be a discussion. I just feel like we didn't witness enough of the development of the relationship to truly understand its depth.

That said, it's definitely a stunningly beautiful movie with fantastic acting (particularly Ledger and Michelle Williams--she was my favorite character). Maybe if it wasn't hyped as such a masterpiece, I would have had a different reaction.

But I'm very moved by your reaction, Sparky. I have had similar reactions to other movies and plays and I marvel at the power of art to halt us in our tracks sometimes.

People are very different when it comes to these kind of things. There are plenty of people who probably won't have the same visceral reaction I did. Those who connect with it the way I did will say masterpiece, but most everyone else will say merely great.

I can understand my own response pretty well. So much of that landscape and imagery are familiar to me. The characters too. It really pushed a lot of my buttons, most powerfully in terms of the tone. In some odd way, and this is simply a connection I have with the way Lee directs, the pacing, the framing, and the ambience of the movie evokes the way my brain constructs memories. It felt extremely intimate and personal to me, my experience, and the style in which my imagination works.

The fact that the two main characters do not share a great amount of dialogue also worked for me. The film doesn't have a lot of dialogue, period.
So much of what was communicated was communicated visually, and the images that were chosen were extremely evocative and memorable to me. The more things I see, hear, and experience...the more I am finding that certain kinds imagery and careful, quiet storytelling have the most impact on me. It is in near silence and stillness that some of the most compelling things in life happen. Lee captures that. There was also a lack of sentimentality that, for me, makes all the difference.

It is perhaps an intensely personal and particular vantage point that enabled me to understand the relationship between these characters and feel the depth of it. The outdoors, the things they did together, the stillness between them...it spoke volumes to me. But not everyone is going to get that, I suppose. They were scenes that could have been pulled out my life. Characters that I have known. That is a familiarity not everyone is going to have. I do not think it detracts from the success of the film, however. I believe the original writer of the story, the screenwriters, and the director all understood the way the two men thought, and the way they related to each other. The scarcity of their time together, the intimacy of the wilderness, all of this enhanced the intensity of it for me. The very scarcity of a precious item is part of what enhances its value. I guess that I felt that way about the character of Ennis. We all have known a few people who rarely say much. But when they do ? Every word counts. When you are with them, every second counts. I felt the film makers conveyed this sense of gravity and power. It is a language that was natural, familiar, and effective to me.
And that is probably part of why it impacted me the way it did.

[markolas]

I want to see this and the Johnny Cash thing, but unfortunately the only movies my friends like to see are sci-fi and teeny bopper movies like Mean Girls and Sky High. :distress:

[sparky]

I want to see this and the Johnny Cash thing, but unfortunately the only movies my friends like to see are sci-fi and teeny bopper movies like Mean Girls and Sky High. :distress:

Dude, what do your friends tastes in movies have to do with anything ?

Or do movie theatres in Texas prohibit the sales of single tickets to movies ?

:shrug:

[markolas]

Dude, what do your friends tastes in movies have to do with anything ?

Or do movie theatres in Texas prohibit the sales of single tickets to movies ?

:shrug:

Going to movies by yourself is just creepy.

[sparky]

Going to movies by yourself is just creepy.

On what planet ? Dude, that is goofy.

Does this mean that you simply don't get to see movies unless you
can find someone to go with ? I am kind of snickering to myself writing this,
but I find that really bizarre.
It sounds like a social anxiety disorder that
hasn't been researched yet. But, hey, if that works for you, it works for you.

[markolas]

On what planet ? Dude, that is goofy.

:shrug:

Does this mean that you simply don't get to see movies unless you
can find someone to go with ?

Yep.

I am kind of snickering to myself writing this,
but I find that really bizarre.
It sounds like a social anxiety disorder that
hasn't been researched yet. But, hey, if that works for you, it works for you.

It doesn't work for me, actually. I need to find better/more compatible friends.

[sparky]

Yep.

I can only shrug. All I can say is that I guess
you must not want to see movies very badly if
you would rather not see them than go alone.
It doesn't compute in my brain. But, it takes
all kinds to make the world go round.



It doesn't work for me, actually. I need to find better/more compatible friends.

We have so had this conversation before.
I like ya, Mark, but it does seem that your friends suck.
Sorry, man.:distress:

[irishgrl]

On what planet ? Dude, that is goofy.

Does this mean that you simply don't get to see movies unless you
can find someone to go with ? I am kind of snickering to myself writing this,
but I find that really bizarre.
It sounds like a social anxiety disorder that
hasn't been researched yet. But, hey, if that works for you, it works for you.
okayyy that was a bit harsh....on a couple of levels.
1) if markolas prefers to go to events with a partner, who are YOU to tell him thats goofy or bizarre? Some people are just old school and feel that that is how it is done. not everyone has embraced the credo of independence....but even if that isnt the issue,
2) its extremely cavalier of you to make light of what may or may not be a mental issue. We are what we are and we are also not cookie cutter people.

ok. flame away. :shrug:

edit: I posted this before I saw your other comment, (which is a bit more compassionate--thank goodness) but it still doesnt negate the fact that you're being a bit hard on markolas IMO.......

[Richard B]

okayyy that was a bit harsh....on a couple of levels.
1) if markolas prefers to go to events with a partner, who are YOU to tell him thats goofy or bizarre? Some people are just old school and feel that that is how it is done. not everyone has embraced the credo of independence....but even if that isnt the issue,
2) its extremely cavalier of you to make light of what may or may not be a mental issue. We are what we are and we are also not cookie cutter people.

ok. flame away. :shrug:

edit: I posted this before I saw your other comment, (which is a bit more compassionate--thank goodness) but it still doesnt negate the fact that you're being a bit hard on markolas IMO.......
I don't think Sparky was harsh at all and was simply responding to this:

Going to movies by yourself is just creepy.

I go to movies by myself...so by his remark...I'm creepy. That's not very nice at all. I like going to movies alone with my own thoughts and less distraction. I also meet people all the time that way, especially if I'm early and the film has not started yet.

[irishgrl]

I don't think Sparky was harsh at all and was simply responding to this:



I go to movies by myself...so by his remark...I'm creepy. That's not very nice at all. I like going to movies alone with my own thoughts and less distraction. I also meet people all the time that way, especially if I'm early and the film has not started yet.

that isnt the impression I got....I understood him to say that for HIM, going by himself was creepy. That doesnt mean everyone who goes by themselves is creepy, only that Markolas doesnt like to do it.

[irishgrl]

Well he did say that going by yourself is creepy which would make me one of the creepy ones.
I think he meant creepy for HIM. not that everyone who goes alone is creepy. And Sparky also took it the way I did, as evidenced by his reply.

good grief. and there are those who say that words mean only one thing....

the only one who can answer the question of what he meant by his statement is markolas........so If I am wrong, fine. but I'll wait to see his explanation before I do any apologizing.

[Richard B]

that isnt the impression I got....I understood him to say that for HIM, going by himself was creepy. That doesnt mean everyone who goes by themselves is creepy, only that Markolas doesnt like to do it.
Regardless, both comments are quite innocuous anyway.

[irishgrl]

Regardless, both comments are quite innocuous anyway.
REALLY? telling someone they have an unaddressed mental problem is INNOCUOUS? Maybe in YOUR world, but not in mine :shrug:

[Richard B]

REALLY? telling someone they have an unaddressed mental problem is INNOCUOUS? Maybe in YOUR world, but not in mine :shrug:
On a forum with people you don't know, don't want to know and who could probably care less...YES.

But you care and that is really sweet.

And again, saying "Going to movies by yourself is just creepy" is again not a nice thing to say and the grammar used does not imply "him" going to the movies is creepy. The comment is wielded to all.

[irishgrl]

On a forum with people you don't know, don't want to know and who could probably care less...YES.

But you care and that is really sweet.

And again, saying "Going to movies by yourself is just creepy" is again not a nice thing to say and the grammar used does not imply "him" going to the movies is creepy. The comment is wielded to all.

actually, if you read the thread, Sparky and Markolas have had discussions regarding this before. so its not technically a topic that hasnt already been broached between them. Thus, for Sparky to say such a thing to Markolas even after they have already discussed it, is harsh to MY way of thinking. Again, Sparky took it the same way I did, which was more on a personal level (ie Markolas' preference).
as for why I care:
I guess its a little closer to home for me because I work with people who DO have agorophobia and anxiety disorders and its like pulling teeth for them to even come to my office to deal with their own cases! Just because I dont suffer from the phobias that my clients do, doesnt mean I have the right to feel superior to them...and that was the tone I got from Sparky's post (dude: that's bizarre, and you've got some unaddressed social anxiety disorder) Just uncalled for IMO, or at the very least, oblivious to how it might be received....

btw: Im very well aware that I may be overly sensitive on behalf of Markolas and that he didnt take offense. He knows his own business best. Im only expressing my OWN opinion about how it hit ME. by tomorrow this wont matter diddly, so, I guess I'll just let it go........carry on good people :wavey:

[Richard B]

actually, if you read the thread, Sparky and Markolas have had discussions regarding this before. so its not technically a topic that hasnt already been broached between them. Thus, for Sparky to say such a thing to Markolas even after they have already discussed it, is harsh to MY way of thinking. Again, Sparky took it the same way I did, which was more on a personal level (ie Markolas' preference).

as for why I care:
I guess its a little closer to home for me because I work with people who DO have agorophobia and anxiety disorders and its like pulling teeth for them to even come to my office to deal with their own cases!
I did read the entire thread. I don't know how I got caught up in this. I don't really care. Actually I was simply amused by your reaction. I think they're both amused by each other and trying to be clever with their banter. Whatever.

I had no idea you worked with people with anxiety and agorophobia. That must be quite challenging. Good for you.

[Serrart]

I just saw it .I think it will be a strong contender for best picture at the oscars and definately a nod and possibly a win for Heath with Ang Lee being more of a long shot but he will get a nomination I'd wager.I think the film more than lived up to it's hype, I have teared up in films before but never can I remember being frozen in my seat and gripping the arm chairs so hard my hands went numb.I don't think judging by the reactions of others around me that I was the only one that had such a visceral reaction.I'll stop now because I don't want to give away anything for those that have not seen the film .I just have to say I have seen many.many films in my life and never have I had a reaction to one quite like this.

It gave me the same reaction, but it usually happens to me watching Ang Lee's movies (the exception is Hulk, but I loved it too). He's able to bottle the emotions and to let them come out in an intoxicating way from the gestures, the glances, the landscapes, with his discreet but so intense direction, alla aspects perfectly reflected by Brokeback Mountain. He respects life in every aspect, people, and cinema; he doesn't feel the need to destroy to create, but observes and tells in his unique way, without fear. Great director indeed.

Romy

[irishgrl]

I did read the entire thread. I don't know how I got caught up in this. I don't really care. Actually I was simply amused by your reaction. I think they're both amused by each other and trying to be clever with their banter. Whatever.

I had no idea you worked with people with anxiety and agorophobia. That must be quite challenging. Good for you.
Its also rewarding. I have no regrets :)

[Serrart]

Going to movies by yourself is just creepy.

I love it, it gives me the space to totally enjoy the experience without the sweet burden to be social.

Romy

[Richard B]

Its also rewarding. I have no regrets :)
I was going to say rewarding as well...but wanted you to say it! That's how it should be. Much success to you.

[irishgrl]

I was going to say rewarding as well...but wanted you to say it! That's how it should be. Much success to you.


awwww now I need a tissue! Im giving you a virtual hug, Sir :nod:

[Richard B]

awwww now I need a tissue! Im giving you a virtual hug, Sir :nod:
Hug right back at ya!

Here you go, please help yourself....
http://www.uab.edu/images/imedpub/Kleenex.jpg

[sparky]

okayyy that was a bit harsh....on a couple of levels.
1) if markolas prefers to go to events with a partner, who are YOU to tell him thats goofy or bizarre? Some people are just old school and feel that that is how it is done. not everyone has embraced the credo of independence....but even if that isnt the issue,
2) its extremely cavalier of you to make light of what may or may not be a mental issue. We are what we are and we are also not cookie cutter people.

ok. flame away. :shrug:

edit: I posted this before I saw your other comment, (which is a bit more compassionate--thank goodness) but it still doesnt negate the fact that you're being a bit hard on markolas IMO.......

You have a lot nerve telling me how I should or should not talk to people I consider friends. I am not particularly interested in what you think of how I talk to people with whom I have developed a rapport. Your arrogance is astonishing. In addition, I don't think Mark needs you to stand up for him.

Perhaps I shouldn't have conversations with people I am friends with in a public forum. I will, however, continue to do so, whether or not you feel some kind of duty to moderate my tone of voice or my manner of dealing with people. Just be aware that your opinions of me are of no consequence to me at all.

[irishgrl]

You have a lot nerve telling me how I should or should not talk to people I consider friends. I am not particularly interested in what you think of how I talk to people with whom I have developed a rapport. Your arrogance is astonishing. In addition, I don't think Mark needs you to stand up for him.

Perhaps I shouldn't have conversations with people I am friends with in a public forum. I will, however, continue to do so, whether or not you feel some kind of duty to moderate my tone of voice or my manner of dealing with people. Just be aware that your opinions of me are of no consequence to me at all.

Well, my nerve equals your own. if you want to make a conversation public, then you have only yourself to blame if people call you on your "comments".
If you dont like it--tough ****. dont put it out there.

Ive already said Im not trying to be Mark's champion, only commenting on how your comments seemed to ME and by GAWD Ive got as much right to say your comments STINK as you have to make them. so THERE.

by the way, if my FRIEND told me I had an "unaddressed mental issue," I think I'd be looking for a new friend. NUFF SAID.

[irishgrl]

Actually I have anxiety and agorophobia and it is for that reason I'm one who prefers to see a film by myself. I wasn't offended but if you really want to look at it that way I could be offended at being creepy due to my mental condition. I prefer going by myself because should I need to suddenly flee, there's no angry friend to have to explain this to or fellow passenger I'm going to leave stranded, and just knowing I can go means I most likely won't need to. Anyway, I'm just being technical because you were, I wasn't offended.
Lux, you are smarter than this; Markolas was only saying it was "creepy" for him to go somewhere by himself, not that everyone who goes solo is creepy.
You know better. and Im sorry you have to deal with such a debilitating condition. I cant imagine what it must be like....so, even tho we argue, I hope you know that I do what I can for others in your same situation. Im not judging by any stretch.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I can only shrug. All I can say is that I guess
you must not want to see movies very badly if
you would rather not see them than go alone.
It doesn't compute in my brain. But, it takes
all kinds to make the world go round.


Hmmm my view...

I don't go to the movies alone because well, you look, sorta...

alone and the one that 'everyone' stares at!

My ass is going to find someone to bring to the movies with me...I would like to think I have enough friends for that.

[irishgrl]

Hmmm my view...

I don't go to the movies alone because well, you look, sorta...

alone and the one that 'everyone' stares at!

My ass is going to find someone to bring to the movies with me...I would like to think I have enough friends for that.

there are all sorts of reasons why people do what they do, but for someone to pass judgement (on a public forum no less) is bad form....

[dissention]

there are all sorts of reasons why people do what they do, but for someone to pass judgement (on a public forum no less) is bad form....

Didn't you recently pass judgement on others who use provocative language by stating that they were somehow less intelligent than those who abstained from employing such verbal offal? As for making light of people with "mental issues," I saw no one engaging in any such thing. Try to differentiate between jovial exchanges and aggressive ones. Though I'm more than happy to make light of people who suffer from Arachibutyrophobia. May they be cursed by Skippy for all of eternity.

In regards to the movie that seems to have yielded such stimulating conversation, I now want to see it even more than before after reading Sparks' glowing words about it. Hopefully it lives up to even a fraction of the hype and I'm tickled pink that you had such an awesome experience viewing it. It's rare that Hollywood can construct a movie that resonates on such a deep level.

[sparky]

Well, my nerve equals your own. if you want to make a conversation public, then you have only yourself to blame if people call you on your "comments".
If you dont like it--tough ****. dont put it out there.

I'll put anything I want out there, like I always have. And uninvolved parties will or will be not feel the need to put themselves in the middle of it.

Ive already said Im not trying to be Mark's champion, only commenting on how your comments seemed to ME and by GAWD Ive got as much right to say your comments STINK as you have to make them. so THERE.

Like I said, your opinion of my comments is irrelevant to me.

by the way, if my FRIEND told me I had an "unaddressed mental issue," I think I'd be looking for a new friend. NUFF SAID.

My friends know when I am kidding or having fun and when I am serious. That would be why I talk to them. They are not such walking wounded that I have to edit my very thought process for fear of destroying them.

BTW, I am not going to be person number 50 who gets into a multi page fight with you over semantics or anything else. What is going on between myself and the people I choose to interact with is our business. Other's interpretations of what we say or do says little about us, but plenty about them. That's all I will be saying about this subject. Bickering with you doesn't interest me.

[irishgrl]

I'll put anything I want out there, like I always have. And uninvolved parties will or will be not feel the need to put themselves in the middle of it.



Like I said, your opinion of my comments is irrelevant to me.



My friends know when I am kidding or having fun and when I am serious. That would be why I talk to them. They are not such walking wounded that I have to edit my very thought process for fear of destroying them.

BTW, I am not going to be person number 50 who gets into a multi page fight with you over semantics or anything else. What is going on between myself and the people I choose to interact with is our business. Other's interpretations of what we say or do says little about us, but plenty about them. That's all I will be saying about this subject. Bickering with you doesn't interest me.

You DO that Sparko Darko. I guess embarrassing your "friend" doesnt interest you either. You should give fair warning to all your friends: WARNING: Sparky's friends MUST also do double duty as doormats NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

by the way, I didnt just hack my way into a private conversation. you put it out there for all to see. if I were your "friend", I think I'd be re-evaluating my friendships.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

there are all sorts of reasons why people do what they do, but for someone to pass judgement (on a public forum no less) is bad form....

Oh yea totally...I agree with you!

I was just stating only my view of the situation...that is the reason that I myself choose not to go alone to the movies...Im sure many many others don't feel that way.

[irishgrl]

Oh yea totally...I agree with you!

I was just stating only my view of the situation...that is the reason that I myself choose not to go alone to the movies...Im sure many many others don't feel that way.
Brandon, for once, Im glad you forgot your meds

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Brandon, for once, Im glad you forgot your meds

alright...who blabbed!?!?!


:laugh:

[irishgrl]

alright...who blabbed!?!?!


:laugh:
bless you my boy, you DO have a sense of humor :nod:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

bless you my boy, you DO have a sense of humor :nod:

Oh come now!

Could I be such a snarky, evil bitch if I didn't?!? :lol:

[irishgrl]

Oh come now!

Could I be such a snarky, evil bitch if I didn't?!? :lol:
funny, I dont see you as snarky or evil or bitchy......maybe its just me?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

funny, I dont see you as snarky or evil or bitchy......maybe its just me?

Maybe you and............4 or 5 others! :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

I guess its a little closer to home for me because I work with people who DO have agorophobia and anxiety disorders and its like pulling teeth for them to even come to my office to deal with their own cases! Just because I dont suffer from the phobias that my clients do, doesnt mean I have the right to feel superior to them.I didn't realize this is what you do for a living -- my hat is off to you. As someone with a panic/anxiety disorder and an acute tendency towards agoraphobia, I realize it must be as difficult for those who try to help people who have this disorder, as it is for the people who actually have it.

I also give you credit for trying to stick up for Markolas and being concerned about his feelings, though I'm certain Sparky didn't have any ill intent with this particular comment. I imagine you're just more sensitive to the issue of mental illness than the average person, and I find it respectable when someone shows some empathy and consideration and tries to stick up for those who can't always stick up for themselves.

[Johnny Stew]

Actually I have anxiety and agorophobia and it is for that reason I'm one who prefers to see a film by myself. I prefer going by myself because should I need to suddenly flee, there's no angry friend to have to explain this to or fellow passenger I'm going to leave stranded, and just knowing I can go means I most likely won't need to.I can definitely relate to that.
It lifts a lot of pressure when you don't feel responsible for whether or not someone else is able to stay and enjoy themselves.

[The Tower]

Like I said, your opinion of my comments is irrelevant to me.
Ditto.

They are not such walking wounded that I have to edit my very thought process for fear of destroying them.
Preach it, sistah!

Bickering with you doesn't interest me.
Mary is one fukcing hard-ass head that don't interest my ass either, babe. Why even attempt to argue with an Immovable Object??? Jason is a Sag- which is always going to try to be the seeker of truth. Otherwise, faggetaboutit......

By the way, I haven't seen the movie and don't plan to- Tragic Gay is not on my menu anymore.

I didn't realize this is what you do for a living -- my hat is off to you. As someone with a panic/anxiety disorder and an acute tendency towards agoraphobia, I realize it must be as difficult for those who try to help people who have this disorder, as it is for the people who actually have it.
All I can say is there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I don't know how long your tunnel is, but I found the end of mine. Here's to hoping you find your light as well.

[sparky]

Gosh, Sparky, you're breaking my heart just reading your responses to this movie. If anything, I'll have to see it just based on your reaction.

I hope you do see it and I would be very interested in how you respond to it. I think that everyone's own unique experience is going to color their reactions.

By the way, I haven't seen the movie and don't plan to- Tragic Gay is not on my menu anymore.

That would be a great loss, for you not to see it. It isn't all tragedy. And it is by no means Tragic Gay. The only reason it is so heartbreaking is that it is such a great love story. I suspect you have seen some or much of the trash the indie film industry has generated and called "gay movies". This is not one of those movies. It is great film making first and foremost, and I think you would be doing yourself a great disservice in missing it. Not everyone is going to reduced to a sobbing wreck like I was. I think you are a very sensitive and perceptive guy and it might move you in ways you wouldn't expect.

[sparky]

Thank you for posting your words about the film, Sparky.

I would love to see Brokeback Mountain but...am unsure how I could go about seeing it without...letting my parents know I'm homosexual. Sounds stupid, I'm sure...

It doesn't sound stupid at all.


Next month I'll have some money (depleted by holiday gifts/shipping) and I really hope to see this on the big screen then. I may just lie to my parents about what I see.

If I could, I would take you to see it myself. Failing that, it is easy enough to hop theatres or just not take the stub home. You'll find a way to see it.

(Incidentally, I have issues involving panic/anxiety and agoraphobia; I am glad to say that I have gone forth more than ever seemed possible with regards to it. To anyone reading, progress is slow and scary but it is possible.)

I am quite certain that you will be fine, and that as you get older and your life becomes more your own you will find a way to move beyond that.

[strandinthewind]

Well he did say that going by yourself is creepy which would make me one of the creepy ones.

Me too. I go alone all of the time, though I do have a friend I like to go with as well.

[irishgrl]

I didn't realize this is what you do for a living -- my hat is off to you. As someone with a panic/anxiety disorder and an acute tendency towards agoraphobia, I realize it must be as difficult for those who try to help people who have this disorder, as it is for the people who actually have it.

I also give you credit for trying to stick up for Markolas and being concerned about his feelings, though I'm certain Sparky didn't have any ill intent with this particular comment. I imagine you're just more sensitive to the issue of mental illness than the average person, and I find it respectable when someone shows some empathy and consideration and tries to stick up for those who can't always stick up for themselves.

thank you for that :xoxo: I'll publicly apologise to Sparky if I misunderstood his comment, if in fact he WAS joking. It wasnt apparent to me but I know its very easy to misinterpret the written word.
SPARKY, IM SORRY IF I MISUNDERSTOOD YOU.

[gldstwmn]

I love it, it gives me the space to totally enjoy the experience without the sweet burden to be social.

Romy

That really is a blessing sometimes, isn't it? Personally, I love to go to the movies by myself.

[sara1998]

I hope you do see it and I would be very interested in how you respond to it. I think that everyone's own unique experience is going to color their reactions.
I would, but it's "not currently playing in my area." I don't know that I would be as emotional about it, because I wouldn't "get" some of it. Ya know?? But, none-the-less, it looks like a damn good movie, and I'm just moved by your response to it.

[The Tower]

That would be a great loss, for you not to see it. It isn't all tragedy. And it is by no means Tragic Gay. The only reason it is so heartbreaking is that it is such a great love story. I suspect you have seen some or much of the trash the indie film industry has generated and called "gay movies". This is not one of those movies. It is great film making first and foremost, and I think you would be doing yourself a great disservice in missing it. Not everyone is going to reduced to a sobbing wreck like I was. I think you are a very sensitive and perceptive guy and it might move you in ways you wouldn't expect.
I think I'll probably rent the DVD or buy it on DirecTV. I heard the blurb on this on NPR and I'm just not into the whole shame/forced to live a lie kind of thing that this movie seems to have. I'm sure my body will swoon at the love story and probably break as well. I'm just tired of watching the suffering/struggle against society. I love Jake and Heath, but :shrug:

So, did your holiday party end up getting clunked by this whole experience??

[strandinthewind]

I would, but it's "not currently playing in my area." I don't know that I would be as emotional about it, because I wouldn't "get" some of it. Ya know?? But, none-the-less, it looks like a damn good movie, and I'm just moved by your response to it.

It opens in wide release this weekend.

[Richard B]

That really is a blessing sometimes, isn't it? Personally, I love to go to the movies by myself.
It's interesting...I think humans are the most inconsistent creatures of all.

I go to movies by myself.
I drive my car by myself.
I go to the gym by myself.
I go to clubs by myself.
I go to concerts by myself.
I go to dinner by myself.
I take long walks by myself.
I go shopping by myself.
I ride my bike by myself.
I travel by myself.

Obviously not everytime, but there is nothing wrong with doing things by yourself. I tend to meet more people when by myself and get myself into all kinds of good trouble. When with a group of friends, you tend to stay in the group and you're not so approachable. It really is restraining. I guess I'm a huge lover of freedom and independence. I have no hang ups about it.

[sparky]

I would, but it's "not currently playing in my area." I don't know that I would be as emotional about it, because I wouldn't "get" some of it. Ya know?? But, none-the-less, it looks like a damn good movie, and I'm just moved by your response to it.

I doubt you would be as emotional. I am just interested in seeing if other people find the love story as intense.

I think I'll probably rent the DVD or buy it on DirecTV. I heard the blurb on this on NPR and I'm just not into the whole shame/forced to live a lie kind of thing that this movie seems to have. I'm sure my body will swoon at the love story and probably break as well. I'm just tired of watching the suffering/struggle against society. I love Jake and Heath, but

The funny thing is there wasn't a focus on there being some whole shame/oppression thing. It is the backdrop of the conflict, it is not saturated in there like some dogmatic message movie. The main gig is two people are powerfully, epically in love and have obstacles. It is classic. The difference is it is finally two men, and it is artfully done.

So, did your holiday party end up getting clunked by this whole experience??

Oh no. Not at all. Everything was beautiful and tons of fun. Everyone had a great time, and I especially enjoyed myself. Missing old friends came out of the woodwork and there were some wonderful new friends that showed up and connected with the gang. I was up all night and am still giddy about how much fun we all had.

[Beachwood Mac]

I go to movies by myself.
I drive my car by myself.
I go to the gym by myself.
I go to clubs by myself.
I go to concerts by myself.
I go to dinner by myself.
I take long walks by myself.
I go shopping by myself.
I ride my bike by myself.
I travel by myself.


I use to feel self conscious doing things on my own. After realizing how many great experiences I had missed I started doing things on my own all the time. I never think twice about it now. And you do meet so many people this way.

Terry

[Rickypt]

People are very different when it comes to these kind of things. There are plenty of people who probably won't have the same visceral reaction I did. Those who connect with it the way I did will say masterpiece, but most everyone else will say merely great.

I can understand my own response pretty well. So much of that landscape and imagery are familiar to me. The characters too. It really pushed a lot of my buttons, most powerfully in terms of the tone. In some odd way, and this is simply a connection I have with the way Lee directs, the pacing, the framing, and the ambience of the movie evokes the way my brain constructs memories. It felt extremely intimate and personal to me, my experience, and the style in which my imagination works.

The fact that the two main characters do not share a great amount of dialogue also worked for me. The film doesn't have a lot of dialogue, period.
So much of what was communicated was communicated visually, and the images that were chosen were extremely evocative and memorable to me. The more things I see, hear, and experience...the more I am finding that certain kinds imagery and careful, quiet storytelling have the most impact on me. It is in near silence and stillness that some of the most compelling things in life happen. Lee captures that. There was also a lack of sentimentality that, for me, makes all the difference.

It is perhaps an intensely personal and particular vantage point that enabled me to understand the relationship between these characters and feel the depth of it. The outdoors, the things they did together, the stillness between them...it spoke volumes to me. But not everyone is going to get that, I suppose. They were scenes that could have been pulled out my life. Characters that I have known. That is a familiarity not everyone is going to have. I do not think it detracts from the success of the film, however. I believe the original writer of the story, the screenwriters, and the director all understood the way the two men thought, and the way they related to each other. The scarcity of their time together, the intimacy of the wilderness, all of this enhanced the intensity of it for me. The very scarcity of a precious item is part of what enhances its value. I guess that I felt that way about the character of Ennis. We all have known a few people who rarely say much. But when they do ? Every word counts. When you are with them, every second counts. I felt the film makers conveyed this sense of gravity and power. It is a language that was natural, familiar, and effective to me.
And that is probably part of why it impacted me the way it did.

Great post. I can see why you responded to the film in such an intense way.

I think I'm going to see it again in about a month and see if I have a different take on it not having such huge expectations.

[Serrart]

That really is a blessing sometimes, isn't it? Personally, I love to go to the movies by myself.

Absolutely.:nod: And I 'm free to see the movie I want without compromising. The joy to see a Makhmalbaf or Tsai Ming Liang movie in a small cinema, is always a magic moment for me.

Romy

[foxyluva]

It's interesting...I think humans are the most inconsistent creatures of all.

I go to clubs by myself.


Wow :eek: Don't you feel a little self concious? I always have to be with someone when i go clubbing or to a party, im guess im just a little scared :rolleyes:

[BombaySapphire3]

I think being comfortable with going to the movies by yourself may have something to do with age and maturity level .Before 25 I don't ever remember going to a film alone. After that age I've gone to them increasingly more often alone.I'm glad I had a date for Brokeback Mountain however .I was so drained and disoriented and pulled out of myself after seeing this film I needed help finding the car!

[Richard B]

Wow :eek: Don't you feel a little self concious? I always have to be with someone when i go clubbing or to a party, im guess im just a little scared :rolleyes:
Self conscious? Naah...my friends say I have enough self assurance to share. I really don't mind going to clubs alone. First off, I'm not alone (there's people everywhere)...I just don't know anyone yet! I've never had a problem meeting people or chatting up strangers. I really love it. I honestly have more fun on my own and am much more open to meeting people. Some friends love to have me around because I do work a room and introduce them to new people.

To each his own. What's works for me may certainly not work for others.

[sparky]

I think being comfortable with going to the movies by yourself may have something to do with age and maturity level .Before 25 I don't ever remember going to a film alone.

Could be age. Movies were always a social thing for me at a younger age, rather than really about seeing the movie. On the flip side, I went alone to Europe for 3 months when I was 23. I still prefer such trips alone, at least most of the time.


I'm glad I had a date for Brokeback Mountain however .I was so drained and disoriented and pulled out of myself after seeing this film I needed help finding the car!

I walked back like a zombie.

[sparky]

POSSIBLE MINOR SPOILER ALERT


For God's sake someone see this damned thing so there is another opinion !
One extremely annoying and predictable development is the politically correct gay cynic response I have read a few times. Some jackass columnist wrote about the movie and was absolutely unable to see it in historical context. The guy literally expected the two main characters to mount some kind of Stonewall revolution and become gay pioneers in Wyoming. What the hell are two high school dropout ranch hand/rodeo types going to do in the midwest in the 60's ? Listen to Judy Garland, read Proust, wear ascots and sip tea while deconstructing rare Virginia Woolf essays and smoking imported Parisian cigarettes ? These guys probably never ever heard the WORD gay. Then, he went on to talk about how terrible it was that Focus Features was marketing it to get a straight female audience, that Focus is owned by NBC, which is in turn owned by GE. Of course, GE is evil, so you should not go see the movie because to do so would be to contribute to furthering the agenda of one more evil conglomerate. :rolleyes:

So short sighted. On top of that, the maniac movie reviewer Michael Medved actually said nice things about the film, but had to comment that one scene that implies gay bashing was a questionable suggestion of a "political agenda".
They say these things with NO attention to the fact that the film is based on source material. Proulx had no agenda in her story. It is a story. Period. It is a time capsule love story. This is one reason I stopped pursuing academia - the constant second guessing of the intention of a writer - the insistence on assigning unintended meaning and deconstructing the psychology of the artist. And it is so often done to further the agenda of the analyst and not the artist. Of course art is a platform for larger discussion, and BBM is a rich subject that can inspire many political, social and sexual discussions. However, people so rarely are able to do that without dragging the writer or the characters over the coals comparing them to some ideal that they think society should live up to. I fail to understand why so many are incapable of employing art as an inspiration for dialogue without sucking the soul out the piece of art. It drives me nuts.

[DavidMn]

POSSIBLE MINOR SPOILER ALERT


For God's sake someone see this damned thing so there is another opinion !
One extremely annoying and predictable development is the politically correct gay cynic response I have read a few times. Some jackass columnist wrote about the movie and was absolutely unable to see it in historical context. The guy literally expected the two main characters to mount some kind of Stonewall revolution and become gay pioneers in Wyoming. What the hell are two high school dropout ranch hand/rodeo types going to do in the midwest in the 60's ? Listen to Judy Garland, read Proust, wear ascots and sip tea while deconstructing rare Virginia Woolf essays and smoking imported Parisian cigarettes ? These guys probably never ever heard the WORD gay. Then, he went on to talk about how terrible it was that Focus Features was marketing it to get a straight female audience, that Focus is owned by NBC, which is in turn owned by GE. Of course, GE is evil, so you should not go see the movie because to do so would be to contribute to furthering the agenda of one more evil conglomerate. :rolleyes:

So short sighted. On top of that, the maniac movie reviewer Michael Medved actually said nice things about the film, but had to comment that one scene that implies gay bashing was a questionable suggestion of a "political agenda".
They say these things with NO attention to the fact that the film is based on source material. Proulx had no agenda in her story. It is a story. Period. It is a time capsule love story. This is one reason I stopped pursuing academia - the constant second guessing of the intention of a writer - the insistence on assigning unintended meaning and deconstructing the psychology of the artist. And it is so often done to further the agenda of the analyst and not the artist. Of course art is a platform for larger discussion, and BBM is a rich subject that can inspire many political, social and sexual discussions. However, people so rarely are able to do that without dragging the writer or the characters over the coals comparing them to some ideal that they think society should live up to. I fail to understand why so many are incapable of employing art as an inspiration for dialogue without sucking the soul out the piece of art. It drives me nuts.I look at it this way, see the movie for what it is, brilliant, leave all the other bs out of it and judge it on it's own merits.

[amber]

POSSIBLE MINOR SPOILER ALERT
I fail to understand why so many are incapable of employing art as an inspiration for dialogue without sucking the soul out the piece of art. It drives me nuts.
Best sentence ever. I totally agree.
It's amazing how moronic and irrelevant to the movie those reviewers "points" were. :confused:
Sorry, I haven't seen it, though....:o

[DavidMn]

Best sentence ever. I totally agree.
It's amazing how moronic and irrelevant to the movie those reviewers "points" were. :confused:
Sorry, I haven't seen it, though....:oThey wanna get people to pay attention to them and their shock statements. that's all it is.:mad:

[dissention]

For God's sake someone see this damned thing so there is another opinion !

It's not out yet here, bub. It's only playing in New York, LA, and San Francisco at the moment!

Then, he went on to talk about how terrible it was that Focus Features was marketing it to get a straight female audience, that Focus is owned by NBC, which is in turn owned by GE. Of course, GE is evil, so you should not go see the movie because to do so would be to contribute to furthering the agenda of one more evil conglomerate. :rolleyes:

Well, a third of Dunkin' Donuts was just sold to The Carlyle Group. I shall no longer purchase wheat bagels from them.

So short sighted. On top of that, the maniac movie reviewer Michael Medved actually said nice things about the film, but had to comment that one scene that implies gay bashing was a questionable suggestion of a "political agenda".

Are you not a Med Head? :laugh:

I fail to understand why so many are incapable of employing art as an inspiration for dialogue without sucking the soul out the piece of art. It drives me nuts.

I wish Kael was around to give us a review of this movie. Who knows what the hell she'd say about it because she was such a wild card, but it would certainly be worth reading.

[Rickypt]

POSSIBLE MINOR SPOILER ALERTOne extremely annoying and predictable development is the politically correct gay cynic response I have read a few times.

The problem is that so many people see it as a gay movie. GLAAD didn't help by sending a press release about it the day it opened, trying to get some political capital out of it.

Once it is defined as a gay movie, then a lot of gay people are going to start looking at the movie through a political lens. I caught myself doing it from time to time, but was able to check myself.

You have described the movie very accurately, sparky. It is a love story between two men. It is really irrelevant if they were straight men who fell in love, one gay guy and a straight guy, two gay guys that would have been able to identify themselves that way in a different place and time, etc.

[DavidMn]

The problem is that so many people see it as a gay movie. GLAAD didn't help by sending a press release about it the day it opened, trying to get some political capital out of it.

Once it is defined as a gay movie, then a lot of gay people are going to start looking at the movie through a political lens. I caught myself doing it from time to time, but was able to check myself.

You have described the movie very accurately, sparky. It is a love story between two men. It is really irrelevant if they were straight men who fell in love, one gay guy and a straight guy, two gay guys that would have been able to identify themselves that way in a different place and time, etc.Well said. :)

[sparky]

It's not out yet here, bub. It's only playing in New York, LA, and San Francisco at the moment!

YOU should have gone to NY to see it. But I think it opens in 20 more cities this weekend.



Well, a third of Dunkin' Donuts was just sold to The Carlyle Group. I shall no longer purchase wheat bagels from them.

Doesn't the Carlyle group own about 40% of the world yet ?



Are you not a Med Head? :laugh:

The irony is, that guy is about as hissy and prissy as Charles Nelson Reilly.



I wish Kael was around to give us a review of this movie. Who knows what the hell she'd say about it because she was such a wild card, but it would certainly be worth reading.

We no longer need her. WE HAVE YOU.

[dissention]

YOU should have gone to NY to see it. But I think it opens in 20 more cities this weekend.

You's talking crazy, cracker. If I'm going to drive to NYC to see a goddamned movie, the red carpet had better be rolled out for my arrival.

They're showing it here on Thursday at midnight (crazy fools), but I can wait until Friday night. :laugh:

Doesn't the Carlyle group own about 40% of the world yet ?

57% to be exact. I hear they're currently attempting to purchase a hefty portion of Chik-Fil-A, which will bring them 4% closer to absolute world domination.

The irony is, that guy is about as hissy and prissy as Charles Nelson Reilly.

He's a closeted Mary if I've ever seen one. Just look:

http://www.eyeonentertainment.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/medved.jpg.w300h300.jpg

I thought his review for Brokeback Mountain was a a scream. You just know he got hard when he typed the words "explicit R-rated man-on-man action."

We no longer need her. WE HAVE YOU.

Aw, you flatter me. Hopefully the movie will elicit a kind & gentle repsonse from me.

[DavidMn]

You's talking crazy, cracker. If I'm going to drive to NYC to see a goddamned movie, the red carpet had better be rolled out for my arrival.

They're showing it here on Thursday at midnight (crazy fools), but I can wait until Friday night. :laugh:



57% to be exact. I hear they're currently attempting to purchase a hefty portion of Chik-Fil-A, which will bring them 4% closer to absolute world domination.



He's a closeted Mary if I've ever seen one. Just look:

http://www.eyeonentertainment.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/medved.jpg.w300h300.jpg

I thought his review for Brokeback Mountain was a a scream. You just know he got hard when he typed the words "explicit R-rated man-on-man action."



Aw, you flatter me. Hopefully the movie will elicit a kind & gentle repsonse from me.Dammit, stop it!!! Youre making my sides hurt today..:lol:

[dissention]

Dammit, stop it!!! Youre making my sides hurt today..:lol:

That's nothing, man! Go to his website.

It's cool to be conservative!

Or, my favorite, his website poll:

Which mainstream media story scares you the most?

-Bird Flu Pandemic
-Small Pox Outbreak
-Category 5 Hurricanes
-Cataclysmic Earthquakes
-President Hillary Rodham Clinton

[DavidMn]

That's nothing, man! Go to his website.

It's cool to be conservative!

Or, my favorite, his website poll:

Which mainstream media story scares you the most?

-Bird Flu Pandemic
-Small Pox Outbreak
-Category 5 Hurricanes
-Cataclysmic Earthquakes
-President Hillary Rodham ClintonWhen I saw him on tv today, he reminded me of a younger Joel Siegel.:lol:

[sparky]

The problem is that so many people see it as a gay movie. GLAAD didn't help by sending a press release about it the day it opened, trying to get some political capital out of it.

GLAAD is so desperate to have gay culture legitimized that they would claim a Leave It To Beaver episode was gay. Not that I don't understand their aims, but I have different view of the culture and this movie than they do. Which I will get to...

Once it is defined as a gay movie, then a lot of gay people are going to start looking at the movie through a political lens. I caught myself doing it from time to time, but was able to check myself.

My issue is with the definition of GAY. I am no longer looking at that word as a cultural concept. I no longer view love or my sexuality as a political statement. And while I can appreciate the marriage of the romantic and political in terms of civic struggles, it is no longer how I view my own life.

You have described the movie very accurately, sparky. It is a love story between two men. It is really irrelevant if they were straight men who fell in love, one gay guy and a straight guy, two gay guys that would have been able to identify themselves that way in a different place and time, etc.

That is what I am talking about. Political activists have understandably taken the cause of equal rights, and marriage and all that, and are fighting the courts and politicians to get protections for people like myself. Their agenda does not belong in the world of every piece of art. It has little place in the world of art criticism. The word GAY to me has become so politically charged that I hesitate to even associate it with myself. IMO, gay "culture" has been spiritually and emotionally bankrupt for very long time.

What I like about this story in particular is that it is independent of all of that. Two guys fall in love. Period. I identify with it on a primal level. My life is for the most part independent of what is identified as gay culture. Most of what is included in that is of no interest at all to me. Give me a simple, down to earth guy who likes to go out in the woods, ride horses, camp, build stuff, and run around in a pickup truck. That's it. Is it a dream world ? Not really. Did we have to go through all the politics to get here ? I guess so. I could go into how those two characters could have done just that, but they didn't. It wasn't the point of the story. The fact that there was no gay community for them, that they had their private, isolated affair over those years...you can take out the adultery, take out the secrecy, and it doesn't change the spirit of the connection. It was simple, unavoidable. A force of nature. I think that's the point.

[DavidMn]

GLAAD is so desperate to have gay culture legitimized that they would claim a Leave It To Beaver episode was gay. Not that I don't understand their aims, but I have different view of the culture and this movie than they do. Which I will get to...



My issue is with the definition of GAY. I am no longer looking at that word as a cultural concept. I no longer view love or my sexuality as a political statement. And while I can appreciate the marriage of the romantic and political in terms of civic struggles, it is no longer how I view my own life.



That is what I am talking about. Political activists have understandably taken the cause of equal rights, and marriage and all that, and are fighting the courts and politicians to get protections for people like myself. Their agenda does not belong in the world of every piece of art. It has little place in the world of art criticism. The word GAY to me has become so politically charged that I hesitate to even associate it with myself. IMO, gay "culture" has been spiritually and emotionally bankrupt for very long time.

What I like about this story in particular is that it is independent of all of that. Two guys fall in love. Period. I identify with it on a primal level. My life is for the most part independent of what is identified as gay culture. Most of what is included in that is of no interest at all to me. Give me a simple, down to earth guy who likes to go out in the woods, ride horses, camp, build stuff, and run around in a pickup truck. That's it. Is it a dream world ? Not really. Did we have to go through all the politics to get here ? I guess so. I could go into how those two characters could have done just that, but they didn't. It wasn't the point of the story. The fact that there was no gay community for them, that they had their private, isolated affair over those years...you can take out the adultery, take out the secrecy, and it doesn't change the spirit of the connection. It was simple, unavoidable. A force of nature. I think that's the point.Someone that can actually see the forest through the trees. BRAVO:)

[dissention]

I just got back from seeing this.

Overall, I greatly enjoyed it. Mostly on a personal level because of some things going on in my life right now. I loved the story and the way it played out (for the most part), but I was not a big fan of the direction. Ang Lee's rigid ideals of tastefulness began to bug me after a while.

Heath Ledger blew me away. He made me tear up quite a few times; I never knew he was such a gifted actor. Masculine, heartfelt, sexy, I thought he was riveting. I couldn't take my eyes off of him when he was onscreen. His loneliness was palpable and broke my heart. Gah, I just loved him. Loved him. Gyllenhaal suffered a bit next to him if you ask me, but not to the point where I'd diss his performance. Michelle Williams was pretty ****ing fabulous, too. I could have done without Anne Hathaway, but that was mostly because her character was so poorly written and developed. She was nothing but a cartoon character; as one-dimensional as a Little Lulu comic book panel and inspiring nothing but a snicker and a roll of the eyes from me.

The relationship between Ennis and Jack was the one of the most realistic depictions of love I've ever seen in a movie. Nothing seemed forced or phoney, it came across as actual love; deeply flawed as only humans could make it, but it being the only thing in life that matters. That feeling of longing that you have for someone you love but can't fully act on for whatever reason and the sense of not being whole without the person you're madly in love with; it was all so real. I get chills just thinking about it. So wonderful.

I only have a few real complaints about it. Ang Lee is as subtle as a jackhammer to the groin. The "visual imagery" he uses metaphorically is obvious and conventional. I got a bit bored by his subjecting me to frame after frame of lush mountainscapes with gurgling streams running in the background when the two leads are onscreen together. What is it meant to signify? Why, the natural beauty of their love, of course. Like I said, the man is as subtle as a jackhammer to the crotch and as imaginative as latter-day Stephen King.

Lee can't find it in him to be anything but pure and chaste to an extreme degree. For example, take the sexual encounters between Ennis and Jack. If Lee had taken a cue from John Waters and filmed these scenes in Odor-Rama, chances are that after I scratched the corresponding dots on my card and held them up to my nostrils, I would have smelled lilies & rose water, not the scents of dirt, sweat, & the foul stench of booze. The scenes are almost as unrealistic as heterosexual sex scenes in other mainstream pictures. In those het-sex scenes, there is a lot of light kissing, heavy petting, slow gyrating, and just a hint of shoulder to make it seem erotic. Then each character rolls over onto their respective side of the bed, sheet pulled up to their armpits, and seem to happily lie in the resulting wet spot. Realistic? Not a chance.

My gripes with Lee aside, I absolutely loved it. It made me think a lot about some things going on in my life and I'm sure my great enjoyment of it was colored by those things.

[strandinthewind]

YOU should have gone to NY to see it. But I think it opens in 20 more cities this weekend. . . . .

It opened in Atlanta this weekend. I am waiting to see it with my friend. I need that shoulder to cry on :shrug:

[markolas]

I've made plans with a couple of friends to go see it after the holiday.

[markolas]

My life is for the most part independent of what is identified as gay culture. Most of what is included in that is of no interest at all to me. Give me a simple, down to earth guy who likes to go out in the woods, ride horses, camp, build stuff, and run around in a pickup truck.

What exactly is identified as "gay culture." And is the only alternative camping in the woods and driving a pick-up truck? I've got news...I have no sense of direction, and if it's not an automatic transmission, I can't drive it. Hey, there's something else for the "I Can't..." thread!

[Serrart]

I only have a few real complaints about it. Ang Lee is as subtle as a jackhammer to the groin. The "visual imagery" he uses metaphorically is obvious and conventional. I got a bit bored by his subjecting me to frame after frame of lush mountainscapes with gurgling streams running in the background when the two leads are onscreen together. What is it meant to signify? Why, the natural beauty of their love, of course

or...
the role of nature as deus ex machina
Ennis and Jack as an oasis in an unforgiving reality
a love story protected from the shield of nature against rules and conventions

He uses nature as a living character, his nature isn't reassuring, but keeps changing, is fascinating, tormented, seeks revenge, gives another chance, seals emotions. It's where revelations, absolute feelings, death take place. And it's been this way in movies like Pushing Hands, Eat Drink Man Woman (where nature is in the most carnal shape, food) , Sense and Sensibility, The Ice Storm, Ride With The Devil, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Brokeback Mountain.

Lee can't find it in him to be anything but pure and chaste to an extreme degree. For example, take the sexual encounters between Ennis and Jack. If Lee had taken a cue from John Waters and filmed these scenes in Odor-Rama, chances are that after I scratched the corresponding dots on my card and held them up to my nostrils, I would have smelled lilies & rose water, not the scents of dirt, sweat, & the foul stench of booze. The scenes are almost as unrealistic as heterosexual sex scenes in other mainstream pictures. In those het-sex scenes, there is a lot of light kissing, heavy petting, slow gyrating, and just a hint of shoulder to make it seem erotic. Then each character rolls over onto their respective side of the bed, sheet pulled up to their armpits, and seem to happily lie in the resulting wet spot. Realistic? Not a chance.

So two cowboys in love have to stink? That's Hollywood, not Oriental way to see love. Lee shows passion as most directors of his culture do. His sublimation is apparent, it's an easy path to an uncompromising and universal sphere, that usually western cinema portrays through cliches. He goes to the core of feelings, as it usually happens making love with someone you (saying it in general) care for, no?

Romy

[sparky]

I could have done without Anne Hathaway, but that was mostly because her character was so poorly written and developed. She was nothing but a cartoon character; as one-dimensional as a Little Lulu comic book panel and inspiring nothing but a snicker and a roll of the eyes from me.


She scarcely exists in the story, and I also wanted to know a bit more about her. She wasn't given all that much to do, but I thought she revealed some interesting things about her character in the backseat scene and in the dinner scene with her parents. Ultimately, I think the function of the character was solely to show what Jack's marriage was about - a mostly lifeless, stifling, and castrating marriage of convenience.

I only have a few real complaints about it. Ang Lee is as subtle as a jackhammer to the groin. The "visual imagery" he uses metaphorically is obvious and conventional. I got a bit bored by his subjecting me to frame after frame of lush mountainscapes with gurgling streams running in the background when the two leads are onscreen together. What is it meant to signify? Why, the natural beauty of their love, of course. Like I said, the man is as subtle as a jackhammer to the crotch and as imaginative as latter-day Stephen King.

:lol: Well, he was subtle with the sex anyway. I have to agree with Romy about the use of the landscapes. I knew you would find it tiresome, but let's face it, most people are stupid and need a 2x4 in the head with the symbolism. A good part of the movie going audience doesn't know the definition of the word symbolism, so some artists go way overboard with it to make sure it sinks in under the radar.

Lee can't find it in him to be anything but pure and chaste to an extreme degree. For example, take the sexual encounters between Ennis and Jack.

I thought the tent scene and the reunion scene were pretty sexy. I knew that Lee was going to be subtle - he is not the kind of film maker who shows a lot of sex. Like so much of the tone of the film, that is completely in line with the story. I could have done with more physical intimacy between them. Not that they needed it to sell their passion. They did that in spades.



If Lee had taken a cue from John Waters and filmed these scenes in Odor-Rama, chances are that after I scratched the corresponding dots on my card and held them up to my nostrils, I would have smelled lilies & rose water, not the scents of dirt, sweat, & the foul stench of booze.

That is a funny image. I know what that tent smelled like. Add the musty moldy tinges of being stored in the shed for months to that little melange you described and you about have it. Mmm. Happy Sparky.

My gripes with Lee aside, I absolutely loved it. It made me think a lot about some things going on in my life and I'm sure my great enjoyment of it was colored by those things.

I ? am thrilled you enjoyed it.

Tried to see it again last night. I bought tix Thurs night. By the time we got done with dinner it was 10 minutes before showtime. It was sold out, the only two seats together were in the front row. After two hours, I would have been Brokeneck Sparky, so we bailed. Came home, built a huge fire, had a shot of tequila. If Mr. Lee would have had a spy cam, he would have been shown what for.

[sparky]

What exactly is identified as "gay culture."

Living close to Weho, which is a mecca gay ghetto, the culture there I have observed consists of living there, going to bars, doing crystal meth, hanging out in mostly homo only places, the rainbow flag thing, dah dee dah. Seemingly living a life where your sexual identity is front and center. I can see it as a thing to do as a kid, to get the feel of a group, but not a full time adult life.

And is the only alternative camping in the woods and driving a pick-up truck?

Certainly not. It just happens to be one that I grew up with and a life that makes me comfortable and happy. When I was younger I never thought that I could reconcile that with being a homo. I didn't think I could reconcile a LOT of traditionally masculine things with that fact. Thus I rejected many things I grew up with and things that I always liked. My mistake. So, I did the gay ghetto trip. Shortly. It never worked for me. It was a set of clothes that never fit. So I reclaimed a great part of my background, and fit it together with my young adult experiences to make the life that feels best to me.

I've got news...I have no sense of direction, and if it's not an automatic transmission, I can't drive it. Hey, there's something else for the "I Can't..." thread!

Silly Mark. Almost all pickups are automatics these days. In fact, you have to order a manual special from Ford, at least in some models. I could learn ya to drive a stick. :lol:

[markolas]

Living close to Weho, which is a mecca gay ghetto, the culture there I have observed consists of living there, going to bars, doing crystal meth, hanging out in mostly homo only places, the rainbow flag thing, dah dee dah. Seemingly living a life where your sexual identity is front and center. I can see it as a thing to do as a kid, to get the feel of a group, but not a full time adult life.

Hmm...never having lived anyplace where there was a gay ghetto, I can't entirely relate to something like that. I don't like bars or drugs, but I will admit to not having any straight friends...I also don't have any Christian friends or any Republican friends. I tend to insulate myself from all that, for better or worse. I just don't want to have to deal with it.

Certainly not. It just happens to be one that I grew up with and a life that makes me comfortable and happy. When I was younger I never thought that I could reconcile that with being a homo. I didn't think I could reconcile a LOT of traditionally masculine things with that fact. Thus I rejected many things I grew up with and things that I always liked. My mistake. So, I did the gay ghetto trip. Shortly. It never worked for me. It was a set of clothes that never fit. So I reclaimed a great part of my background, and fit it together with my young adult experiences to make the life that feels best to me.

Ah. See, I never liked those things. Much to my father's chagrin. They all thought I was an alien from the time I was born, basically. :nod:

I could learn ya to drive a stick. :lol:

Who knew you were a bottom? :lol:

[sparky]

I will admit to not having any straight friends...

Funny. In real life I only have about 3 gay friends. Almost all my friends are straight. Online, I have lotsa gay chat friends, like here.


Ah. See, I never liked those things. Much to my father's chagrin. They all thought I was an alien from the time I was born, basically. :nod:

I liked some, and disliked others. Now, I am all about the outdoors and have become fond of hockey. WHO KNEW.

Who knew you were a bottom? :lol:

Lord Have Mercy. I didn't.

We need to teach you so much, Markster.:xoxo:

[dissention]

Ultimately, I think the function of the character was solely to show what Jack's marriage was about - a mostly lifeless, stifling, and castrating marriage of convenience.

I think that could have been achieved without displaying her as nothing but a cartoon character. She didn't even seem human; she was a caricature, a cliched parody of loudmouthed women.

:lol: Well, he was subtle with the sex anyway. I have to agree with Romy about the use of the landscapes. I knew you would find it tiresome, but let's face it, most people are stupid and need a 2x4 in the head with the symbolism. A good part of the movie going audience doesn't know the definition of the word symbolism, so some artists go way overboard with it to make sure it sinks in under the radar.

Lee certainly falls into that category. It was so predictable and lacking such imagination that at times I wondered why he bothered. He doesn't strike me as a dummy filmmaker, so I don't understand the need to hit you over the head with symbolism that is as obvious as the sun above our heads.

I thought the tent scene and the reunion scene were pretty sexy. I knew that Lee was going to be subtle - he is not the kind of film maker who shows a lot of sex. Like so much of the tone of the film, that is completely in line with the story. I could have done with more physical intimacy between them. Not that they needed it to sell their passion. They did that in spades.

That is a funny image. I know what that tent smelled like. Add the musty moldy tinges of being stored in the shed for months to that little melange you described and you about have it. Mmm. Happy Sparky.

Maybe Proulx's story spoiled me a bit and I shouldn't have expected the movie version to faithfully recreate their sexual encounters, but they just lacked realism. She writes it as reeking of cum, sweat, and smoke, he films it in a way that completely ignores anything of that nature. It was too prettied up. Lee was too concerned with staying within the boundaries of what he considers to be tasteful and that took away from certain aspects of the story for me.

I ? am thrilled you enjoyed it.

I really did. What we're discussing are really only minor quibbles that I have with it and Ang Lee, I honestly thought it was a fantastic movie. You certainly nailed it when you expressed how great it was. I can't tell you how good I thought Heath Ledger was.

Tried to see it again last night. I bought tix Thurs night. By the time we got done with dinner it was 10 minutes before showtime. It was sold out, the only two seats together were in the front row. After two hours, I would have been Brokeneck Sparky, so we bailed. Came home, built a huge fire, had a shot of tequila. If Mr. Lee would have had a spy cam, he would have showed been shown what for.

:laugh: If only Lee had you to consult, it would have been an even more amazing movie.

I ordered our tix online because I knew the Cambridge queers were going to storm the theater for every seat available. And they did.

[sparky]

I think that could have been achieved without displaying her as nothing but a cartoon character. She didn't even seem human; she was a caricature, a cliched parody of loudmouthed women.

I will look for this again in my second viewing. Nonetheless her phone call scene is pretty damned good.

Lee certainly falls into that category. It was so predictable and lacking such imagination that at times I wondered why he bothered. He doesn't strike me as a dummy filmmaker, so I don't understand the need to hit you over the head with symbolism that is as obvious as the sun above our heads.

Hm. I think most people are dumber than you believe.
You know what visual I really wanted to see ? Them holding hands at some point.

Maybe Proulx's story spoiled me a bit and I shouldn't have expected the movie version to faithfully recreate their sexual encounters, but they just lacked realism. She writes it as reeking of cum, sweat, and smoke, he films it in a way that completely ignores anything of that nature. It was too prettied up. Lee was too concerned with staying within the boundaries of what he considers to be tasteful and that took away from certain aspects of the story for me.

I see both sides. I think his "distant" way of directing served most aspects of the story extremely well. Could I have done with a more explicit sex scene somewhere ? Absolutely. You know those guys had the type of sex that leaves you literally bruised and beat up. In the story, that reunion kiss leaves one of them with a bloody lip. Now that's some intensity. Me likey.

I really did. What we're discussing are really only minor quibbles that I have with it and Ang Lee, I honestly thought it was a fantastic movie. You certainly nailed it when you expressed how great it was. I can't tell you how good I thought Heath Ledger was.

So glad it passed the Diss Keal test. Heath was really something. That scene where he punches the wall was EXACTLY what I had been picturing.



:laugh: If only Lee had you to consult, it would have been an even more amazing movie.

And NC-17.

I ordered our tix online because I knew the Cambridge queers were going to storm the theater for every seat available. And they did.

The crowd we left last night was only about 30% homo.

[dissention]

I will look for this again in my second viewing. Nonetheless her phone call scene is pretty damned good.

I thought Michelle Williams was incredible out of the two female characters. Granted, I've always liked her, but this movie proved she's got some serious chops. She got my pulse racing with just one look at certain points in the movie.

Hm. I think most people are dumber than you believe.

Oh, there's no doubt that the average moviegoer is as stupid as you make them out to be. Even with his heavyhanded schtick, I doubt half of them even got what he was trying to convey.

You know what visual I really wanted to see ? Them holding hands at some point.

Ooh, good call.

So glad it passed the Diss Keal test. Heath was really something. That scene where he punches the wall was EXACTLY what I had been picturing.

You just named my favorite scene in the whole movie. :o

And NC-17.

:laugh: They'll slap anything with an NC-17 these days. Three thrusts and you get one.

The crowd we left last night was only about 30% homo.

The crowd we left the theater with last night was 99.9% Mary-fied. I've never seen so much tissue on the floor in my life.

[BombaySapphire3]

originally posted by dissention The crowd we left the theater with last night was 99.9% Mary-fied. I've never seen so much tissue on the floor in my life.
__________________
Ditto for San Francisco .The only heterosexuals at the show I noticed were an Asian couple .probably fans of Ang Lee.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I thought Michelle Williams was incredible out of the two female characters. Granted, I've always liked her

Me too...LOVE LOVE LOVE HER!

*and she is big on the second amendment, which rocks my socks!*

[strandinthewind]

. . . I ordered our tix online because I knew the Cambridge queers were going to storm the theater for every seat available. And they did.

You paid the service fee :eek:

[sparky]

Ditto for San Francisco .The only heterosexuals at the show I noticed were an Asian couple .probably fans of Ang Lee.

Isn't this true of SF in general anyway ?:shrug:

:wavey: Couldn't help it.

[SpyNote]

Asian couple must have been there because they were fans of Ang Lee? Uh, ok. :rolleyes:

[sparky]

OMG, second weekend. 20 new cities, and Diss, my beloved Diss, is the only one with a review ? What is UP with you people ?

I thought this place was SWIMMING with homos.

What gives?

BTW, I just saw a hysterical show in LA at Casito del Campo called Fruitcake Follies. If anyone else here has a chance, SEE IT. I hate musicals and I laughed my ass off.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I thought this place was SWIMMING with homos.



I haven't seen it yet...

but when I do see it...it's not going to be so much for the homo story line, as it is for...

MICHELLE WILLIAMS! :)

[sparky]

I haven't seen it yet...

but when I do see it...it's not going to be so much for the homo story line, as it is for...

MICHELLE WILLIAMS! :)


The irony is STAGGERING.

:blob2: :eek:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

The irony is STAGGERING.

:blob2: :eek:

ehh...I'm not big on "message" movies. So they fall in love, so they are hot cowboys...:rolleyes:

Go Michelle Williams! :blob1:

[BombaySapphire3]

Asian couple must have been there because they were fans of Ang Lee? Uh, ok. :rolleyes:
Oh lord !Please don't construe my comment as some kind of racist remark .The idea I was trying to get across was the paucity of heterosexuals in a sold out show.So I was kind of half joking that the only non- gay couple there was probably there because they were fans of Ang Lee and not the subject matter of the film .I guess it came off awkwardly .I apologize.:xoxo:

[cliffdweller]

OMG, second weekend. 20 new cities, and Diss, my beloved Diss, is the only one with a review ? What is UP with you people ?

I thought this place was SWIMMING with homos.

What gives?

BTW, I just saw a hysterical show in LA at Casito del Campo called Fruitcake Follies. If anyone else here has a chance, SEE IT. I hate musicals and I laughed my ass off.

Spoiler Below:











































I'm not a homo :laugh: but I saw it yesterday and WEPT! All I have to say is, the shirt. That damned shirt at the end!!! I was doing okay until they whipped that out of the closet (so to speak *wink*) and then I just lost it. I thought Jake G and Heath Ledger were phenomenal and Michelle Williams was every bit as good as everyone says. Wow. Not once did this story feel forced or contrived, it felt very honest and real. Ang Lee did a beautiful job. This is a touching love story.

[sparky]

ehh...I'm not big on "message" movies. So they fall in love, so they are hot cowboys...:rolleyes:

Go Michelle Williams! :blob1:

Oh, you make me laugh. And it really isn't a message movie.

[sparky]

Spoiler Below:











































I'm not a homo :laugh: but I saw it yesterday and WEPT! All I have to say is, the shirt. That damned shirt at the end!!! I was doing okay until they whipped that out of the closet (so to speak *wink*) and then I just lost it. I thought Jake G and Heath Ledger were phenomenal and Michelle Williams was every bit as good as everyone says. Wow. Not once did this story feel forced or contrived, it felt very honest and real. Ang Lee did a beautiful job. This is a touching love story.

YUP. That was a hell of a moment. And did you notice that when Ennis found the shirt(s) in Jack's parents house, his shirt was inside the Jack's, and then in his closet, they are reversed ? That was a very nice touch. There are some very nice subtle moments that I missed the first time, and am hearing about from people who have seen it three friggin times already. There is a lot going on in that movie.

[cliffdweller]

YUP. That was a hell of a moment. And did you notice that when Ennis found the shirt(s) in Jack's parents house, his shirt was inside the Jack's, and then in his closet, they are reversed ? That was a very nice touch. There are some very nice subtle moments that I missed the first time, and am hearing about from people who have seen it three friggin times already. There is a lot going on in that movie.

No I did NOT notice that! Wow. That makes it like 100 times more powerful. I got goosebumps just now reading your post! This is definitely a movie I will see again.

[sparky]

No I did NOT notice that! Wow. That makes it like 100 times more powerful. I got goosebumps just now reading your post! This is definitely a movie I will see again.

I wasn't convinced of it, but I have been reading this maniacal fan board and people are seeing all kinds of things. Some groupie noticed it. So, I will see it a few more times ( :shocked: )to get all the small things. And just to, you know, wallow and be miserable.:woohoo: :laugh:

[estranged4life]

OMG, second weekend. 20 new cities, and Diss, my beloved Diss, is the only one with a review ? What is UP with you people ?

I thought this place was SWIMMING with homos.

What gives?


the movie playing here is the same chance of me forgiving the doctors for killing my Mother...Slim and none, And Slim just left the building.

Deb would like to see it, She is a big Heath Ledger fan (ie-Knight's Tale), Wouldnt bother me....I am an open minded person.

[sparky]

the movie playing here is the same chance of me forgiving the doctors for killing my Mother...Slim and none, And Slim just left the building.

Deb would like to see it, She is a big Heath Ledger fan (ie-Knight's Tale), Wouldnt bother me....I am an open minded person.

You're probably right, but it is really making a lot of money in Plano Texas, of all places.

[estranged4life]

You're probably right, but it is really making a lot of money in Plano Texas, of all places.

in the hellhole I live in refused to show the first Harry Potter movie years back because it "promoted Satanism"...Yeah, Sure, Whatever!

Brian "My favorite number has always been 666" j.

[dissention]

I wasn't convinced of it, but I have been reading this maniacal fan board and people are seeing all kinds of things. Some groupie noticed it. So, I will see it a few more times ( :shocked: )to get all the small things. And just to, you know, wallow and be miserable.:woohoo: :laugh:

Christ, it's like a David Lynch movie. :laugh:

[sparky]

in the hellhole I live in refused to show the first Harry Potter movie years back because it "promoted Satanism"...Yeah, Sure, Whatever!

Brian "My favorite number has always been 666" j.

Frightening. A good friend of mine moved to Duncan OK, population who knows how small. And God Love Him, he is a flamer to beat the band. Though he is also a tough little **** and 6 year Navy vet. He says he is going to be the gay Rosa Parks of Duncan OK.

[sparky]

Christ, it's like a David Lynch movie. :laugh:

Where's my pukey emoticon ? Some of his stuff is interesting but Mulholland Drive made me want to track him down with a club. I am still pissed off by how dicked around I felt by that film.

[dissention]

Where's my pukey emoticon ? Some of his stuff is interesting but Mulholland Drive made me want to track him down with a club. I am still pissed off by how dicked around I felt by that film.

Me too, babe. I quite liked it up until Watts and Harring slept together, but then it all went to ****.

Have you ever seen "The Saddest Music In the World" with Isabella Rossellini? It's always struck me as something Lynch would make for a lark, you should check it out. It's great fun.

[sparky]

Me too, babe. I quite liked it up until Watts and Harring slept together, but then it all went to ****.

Have you ever seen "The Saddest Music In the World" with Isabella Rossellini? It's always struck me as something Lynch would make for a lark, you should check it out. It's great fun.

On my list !

Damn, I oughta do the netflix thing.

[dissention]

On my list !

Damn, I oughta do the netflix thing.

Put it at the top of that list. Rossellini as a beer baroness who has no legs and instead has glass legs filled with beer. It does not get any better. Guy Maddin makes some crazy movies.

[sparky]

Lord Have Mercy. I thought someone else would have seen this by now, considering the high percentage of homos on this board.

Anyway, I saw it again, and noticed a lot of things I didn't before. In some ways, I enjoyed it more on the second viewing. Which is not to say I wasn't emotionally wrung out just the same. In spite of knowing which scenes were the most powerful, I was not shielded from the sadness. It was worse in a few instances.

Also, I got the soundtrack and have listened to it a number of times. It is great. Of course the theme is repeated in a number of different versions throughout and I have to skip it. It makes me too sad. But the other music is fun. There is unfortunately a Rufus Wainright song, and his voice drives me straight up a wall. But, I am able to listen to it at least. He seems to have downplayed his affectation a shade, so he doesn't sound so friggin fey and mannered.

The Emmylou song is really a corker too. And the Steve Earle song is the bomb.

[markolas]

I'm going to see it on Saturday. :)

[sparky]

I'm going to see it on Saturday. :)

:blob2:

And here I was thinking I was gonna have to fly to Austin and track
you down.

[markolas]

:blob2:

And here I was thinking I was gonna have to fly to Austin and track
you down.

Well, it looks like I spoke too soon. Apparently, I've been disinvited. :shocked:

[strandinthewind]

Well, it looks like I spoke too soon. Apparently, I've been disinvited. :shocked:


How Alanis of them :laugh:

I, too, have not seen this. I am going to try and go next week.

[markolas]

How Alanis of them :laugh:

I, too, have not seen this. I am going to try and go next week.

Well, they're both scum, as far as I'm concerned. :D I'm going to go see it by myself. I'm swearing off people.

[ontheEdgeof17]

How Alanis of them :laugh:



and how Ironic....

I have her first LP on right now.

[The Tower]

I'm swearing off people.
2005 was the year I did this as well. In general, people suck. Every once in awhile you find a gem, but the pickings have been mighty slim as of late.

[strandinthewind]

. . . Every once in awhile you find a gem . . . .

SWOON!!!!! :)

[skcin]

Lord Have Mercy. I thought someone else would have seen this by now, considering the high percentage of homos on this board.




Bad homos! BAD! :mad:

I haven't seen it yet. It's not like there's a chance in hell hubby would go with me, and I just found out that my gay is moving to San Diego in a few weeks. :distress:

[The Tower]

SWOON!!!!! :)
Yes, dear- you are the Taylor-Burton diamond....

Bad homos! BAD! :mad:
I still ain't seen it, neither.

I haven't seen it yet. It's not like there's a chance in hell hubby would go with me, and I just found out that my gay is moving to San Diego in a few weeks. :distress:
Ah, the Tragedy of One's Own Soul..... the hag without her fag.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :xoxo:

[strandinthewind]

Yes, dear- you are the Taylor-Burton diamond....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/strandinthewind/untitled.jpg

also - though brilliant, I am not pear shaped.

[ontheEdgeof17]

I haven't seen it yet. It's not like there's a chance in hell hubby would go with me, and I just found out that my gay is moving to San Diego in a few weeks. :distress:


No back-up fag you can bring up from the basement and brush off?

[skcin]

Ah, the Tragedy of One's Own Soul..... the hag without her fag.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :xoxo:

I know. It's hurting my everything.


No back-up fag you can bring up from the basement and brush off?

Are you calling West Virginia a basement? :shrug: :lol:

[strandinthewind]

. . . Are you calling West Virginia a basement? :shrug: :lol:

more like the bowels of Hell :eek:

[ontheEdgeof17]

Are you calling West Virginia a basement? :shrug: :lol:

more like the bowels of Hell


Jealous bitches.

[Neal]

BBM has been playing here for a week, but I finally got around to seeing it last night.


All I have to say is, the shirt. That damned shirt at the end!!! I was doing okay until they whipped that out of the closet (so to speak *wink*) and then I just lost it.

That's the part that got me too. I got a little choked up during their last meeting, when the new object of my obsession (Heath) started crying, but held it together until the shirt scene. As one who is almost completely jaded and bitter, this film definitely put some (but not much) wind back in my sails. :cool:

[sparky]

BBM has been playing here for a week, but I finally got around to seeing it last night.



That's the part that got me too. I got a little choked up during their last meeting, when the new object of my obsession (Heath) started crying, but held it together until the shirt scene. As one who is almost completely jaded and bitter, this film definitely put some (but not much) wind back in my sails. :cool:

Well I am glad SOMEONE got out there and saw it.

The shirt scene is the toughest, though that isn't necessarily true the second time.

How can you be that jaded and bitter, Kneel, you're what, like 25?

Fetal !:lol:

[Neal]

Well I am glad SOMEONE got out there and saw it.

The shirt scene is the toughest, though that isn't necessarily true the second time.

How can you be that jaded and bitter, Kneel, you're what, like 25?

Fetal !:lol:

25?! :eek: I'm 24, thank you very much... :p ;)

Yeah, I think the shirt scene got a lot of people. There was an entire row of hags behind me who were audibly sobbing. :rolleyes:

Speaking of, the show I went to was full of middle-aged hetero couples! Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I was hoping to catch some poor, emotionally vulnerable hottie on the way out and do some "fishing" of my own... :cool:

[macfanken]

I haven't seen the movie yet but some asshole already gave away the ending to me. :mad:

[sparky]

Speaking of, the show I went to was full of middle-aged hetero couples! Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I was hoping to catch some poor, emotionally vulnerable hottie on the way out and do some "fishing" of my own... :cool:

Yeah, that is who is going to see it. Which means it is making good box office, which means Hollywood will see that a high quality love story with two male leads can be profitable. Then we will get more of them. :blob2:

The homo ratio in the theatres I have been in was less than half. About 40% in one and maybe 20% in the other.

[sparky]

I haven't seen the movie yet but some asshole already gave away the ending to me. :mad:

It's okay to know the ending. I read the story many times before seeing the movie, and it didn't lessen the impact a shred. I got lost in the movie anyway. It is that good.

[estranged4life]

more like the bowels of Hell :eek:

that would be Oklahoma as it burns....Thus making yours truly the Emperor of Hell :nod:

Brian "Proudly sits in his throne...plotting" j.

[Neal]

Yeah, that is who is going to see it. Which means it is making good box office, which means Hollywood will see that a high quality love story with two male leads can be profitable. Then we will get more of them. :blob2:


Well, that's great and all, but how does it help me get laid? :confused: :shrug:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

How can you be that jaded and bitter, Kneel, you're what, like 25?



Thats the same question I ask him...again and again...

bitter Neal...you can't be bitter! :lol:

[sparky]

Well, that's great and all, but how does it help me get laid? :confused: :shrug:

That, my friend, is up to you.

[Neal]

That, my friend, is up to you.

I really don't think it is. At this point, I have to believe the universe is conspiring to keep me celibate the rest of my life... :distress: :cool:

[sparky]

I really don't think it is. At this point, I have to believe the universe is conspiring to keep me celibate the rest of my life... :distress: :cool:

You know, I sometimes think the same thing. Every morning I wake up expecting that damned Jake Gyllenhaal to be in my bed, and he
never is. What the hell ? I want him, and therefore he should just arrive.
I shouldn't have to like, put any effort into it, or anything.

:laugh:

Seriously, on second thought, maybe this movie will help you get laid. Eventually. I am hoping people will see this, give themselves a break, and relax a little already about their lives and sexuality. SO many people aren't out, and are living lies. The less there is of that, the more possibilities there are for healthy, sane guys to find others out there. Won't happen overnight, but it can't hurt.

[dissention]

Also, I got the soundtrack and have listened to it a number of times. It is great. Of course the theme is repeated in a number of different versions throughout and I have to skip it. It makes me too sad. But the other music is fun. There is unfortunately a Rufus Wainright song, and his voice drives me straight up a wall. But, I am able to listen to it at least. He seems to have downplayed his affectation a shade, so he doesn't sound so friggin fey and mannered.

The Emmylou song is really a corker too. And the Steve Earle song is the bomb.

Oh man, I love the soundtrack. Got it before Christmas and it's great. Wish it was without the Earle and Ronstadt songs, though, they completely kill the flow of it.

Emmylou's song slayed me when I first heard it. The way she sings "I know" makes the entire song. It's haunting. Too bad it was disqualified for the Oscars.

[priestofnothing]

<img src="http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c202/priestofnothing/Brokeback_Mountain.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

[sparky]

<img src="http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c202/priestofnothing/Brokeback_Mountain.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">


Umm, that was pretty much me at 5 or 6.

:thumbsup: :blob2:

[strandinthewind]

Well, I saw it and I saw it alone, which was a little disconcerting even though I often go to the movies alone.

It was really good if not great and Heath L. should win the Oscar for that performance - the scene where he falls to his knees after they first part ways after herding on BB Mountain - sheebus. Ditto for the final fight scene when he blames Jack for the way his life turned out. What a great movie.

[skcin]

It's haunting. Too bad it was disqualified for the Oscars.


Why was it DQ'd? :shrug:

[dissention]

Why was it DQ'd? :shrug:

It didn't meet the 30 second time requirement. The song was only heard on the radio in one scene for under 30 seconds. A dirty shame because it's one helluva tune. Surely they could have worked it into the credits to get it qualified. I would have splooged to see Emmylou perform it at the Oscars.

[JazmenFlowers]

I have yet to see this...I doubt it comes to Jackson, but I'm hoping it does. If not, I'll have to hunt down a bootleg.

[skcin]

It didn't meet the 30 second time requirement. The song was only heard on the radio in one scene for under 30 seconds. A dirty shame because it's one helluva tune. Surely they could have worked it into the credits to get it qualified. I would have splooged to see Emmylou perform it at the Oscars.


How stupid of them not to eek out another couple of seconds.

[sparky]

Well, I saw it and I saw it alone, which was a little disconcerting even though I often go to the movies alone.

It was really good if not great and Heath L. should win the Oscar for that performance - the scene where he falls to his knees after they first part ways after herding on BB Mountain - sheebus. Ditto for the final fight scene when he blames Jack for the way his life turned out. What a great movie.

It is going to do very well. Already making more money than 'Munich' on half the screens. I think it will make it to every market soon, simply because of all the awards and the juggernaut of the box office.

The reactions I have heard are odd to say the least. People are either very moved or bored. A lot of gay guys are extremely blase about it. At least the ones under 35. I think people are expecting orgies, discos, or drugs. None of this is a surprise to me, actually. It simply confirms to me what I have felt about the "gay community" for years and why I am not a part of it.

Nonetheless, it is enormously important that the film is becoming such a success. The effects of it are going to creep around for years, culturally and artistically. It isn't going to change homos, it is going to open the eyes of everyone else. And frankly, I didn't see a lot of gay people at the shows I have been to. Not surprising. I don't think most gay men would know real love between two men if it hit them in the face like a club. They see this and think "Whatever." Sad state of affairs. We have been fed garbage for so long we don't know the real thing when it is served to us.

[Neal]

I don't think most gay men would know real love between two men if it hit them in the face like a club. They see this and think "Whatever." Sad state of affairs. We have been fed garbage for so long we don't know the real thing when it is served to us.

Amen! :nod:

[Johnny Stew]

It simply confirms to me what I have felt about the "gay community" for years and why I am not a part of it. I'd actually like to chat with you sometime about the "gay community" and more of your thoughts on it.
When I came out... somewhat "late in life," I guess, at 28... some well-intentioned gay friends started to tell me how I should style my hair, what clothes I should start buying, what kind of music I should be listening to, even what kind of cologne and UNDERWEAR I should wear. The conformity amazed me. What happened to individuality? I always thought that the gay community celebrated being unique, but I quickly realized I was wrong.

But maybe it's a "safety in numbers" kind of thing, and helps some guys feel like they "fit in."
Myself, I'd rather not fit in, if it means having to give up who I am... and being true to myself was the whole reason I came out in the first place!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

what kind of music I should be listening to

So me listening to Sara Groves is out...:shrug:

[Johnny Stew]

So me listening to Sara Groves is out...:shrug:I think you listening to Mariah balances that out though. ;)

[Serrart]

Well, I saw it and I saw it alone, which was a little disconcerting even though I often go to the movies alone.

It was really good if not great and Heath L. should win the Oscar for that performance - the scene where he falls to his knees after they first part ways after herding on BB Mountain - sheebus. Ditto for the final fight scene when he blames Jack for the way his life turned out. What a great movie.

He's very good but it wouldn't be right if the Oscar went to him instead of David Strathairn, Philip Seymour Hoffman or even Joaquin Phoenix. It would have written "politically correct" all over.

Romy

[dissention]

He's very good but it wouldn't be right if the Oscar went to him instead of David Strathairn, Philip Seymour Hoffman or even Joaquin Phoenix. It would have written "politically correct" all over.

Romy

Fine with me. I prefer his performance over those of the actors you listed.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I think you listening to Mariah balances that out though. ;)

ohhh good! I could never give up Sara...or Amy (who btw...has quite a few gay fans believe it or not...I'm a fanclub member and know some).

[dissention]

or Amy (who btw...has quite a few gay fans believe it or not).

You're one, who are the other two?

[Serrart]

Fine with me. I prefer his performance over those of the actors you listed.

You prefer him even to David Strathairn? A movie doesn't make an actor, IMO.

Romy

[The Tower]

You're one, who are the other two?
Clay Aiken and Kenny Chesney

[jannieC]

I have a feeling this movie will never come to my town. I'll have to rent it on DVD, I'm afraid. :distress:

[dissention]

You prefer him even to David Strathairn? A movie doesn't make an actor, IMO.

Romy

I never said it did. However, an Oscar should celebrate particular performances, not be doled out as some sort of achievement award just because a certain actor hasn't gotten one in the past. Stack up Ledger's performance next to those of the other actors you mentioned and Ledger gave the best one. If he's nominated, he should win it. Just my opinion.

[sparky]

He's very good but it wouldn't be right if the Oscar went to him instead of David Strathairn, Philip Seymour Hoffman or even Joaquin Phoenix. It would have written "politically correct" all over.

Romy

I haven't seen Strathairn or Phoenix, but Hoffman was in my estimation a Rich Little impersonation, though I think he is a great actor. I will reserve judgement till I see the other actors, but from Heath's previous work and his interviews, he transformed absolutely.

[sparky]

I'd actually like to chat with you sometime about the "gay community" and more of your thoughts on it.
When I came out... somewhat "late in life," I guess, at 28... some well-intentioned gay friends started to tell me how I should style my hair, what clothes I should start buying, what kind of music I should be listening to, even what kind of cologne and UNDERWEAR I should wear. The conformity amazed me. What happened to individuality? I always thought that the gay community celebrated being unique, but I quickly realized I was wrong.


The friggin Gay Gestapo.

But maybe it's a "safety in numbers" kind of thing, and helps some guys feel like they "fit in."
Myself, I'd rather not fit in, if it means having to give up who I am... and being true to myself was the whole reason I came out in the first place!

I understand an element of all of this. People have felt like outsiders for so long that they are thrilled to finally find a club that wants them. So a lifetime of being excluded is reversed, and there is a celebration about being included in a group. I get it. But the group is like all other groups. It is just as exclusive, if not more so, and the history of being kicked out and stepped on tends to create a certain kind of relentless bitchiness that can only erupt from the psychic depths of people who have been truly and deeply hurt.
Ever crossed a drag queen ?

I don't dismiss all forms gay gatherings. I have my pals, and I hit a bar now and then, but the organized stuff is not for me. I have a ton of theories about this but I won't start cause I won't shut up. Suffice it to say, as I have said before, that I think that "gay culture" is emotionally and spiritually bankrupt and has been for years. A brief, occasional visit to it is all I can stand.

[Rickypt]

And frankly, I didn't see a lot of gay people at the shows I have been to. Not surprising. I don't think most gay men would know real love between two men if it hit them in the face like a club. They see this and think "Whatever." Sad state of affairs. We have been fed garbage for so long we don't know the real thing when it is served to us.

It was nothing but gay men at the showing I went to, and it is all the gay men I know have been talking about since December 9th.

I do disagree with you about gay men and love. I don't think gay men find, know, and express love any differently than other people. I've witnessed amazing examples of real love between gay men, and experienced it myself.

[dissention]

I know you adore him, my darling, but I do question his intelligence. Which could make for some interesting fun if he is dumb, nonetheless.

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/gyllenhaal%20owes%20success%20to%20ancestor

Movie star JAKE GYLLENHAAL was inspired to find fame and fortune, by his beetle-collecting great-great grandfather.

The BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN actor grew up hearing legends about his ancestry and is proud to reveal greatness runs in their family.

He says, "That's what I was told. He was a collector and cataloguer of beetles. We're interesting people. He was knighted by the King of Sweden and the Gyllenhaals even have their own coat of arms over there."

[sparky]

It was nothing but gay men at the showing I went to, and it is all the gay men I know have been talking about since December 9th.

I do disagree with you about gay men and love. I don't think gay men find, know, and express love any differently than other people. I've witnessed amazing examples of real love between gay men, and experienced it myself.

We all have different experiences. No doubt about that. I am not going to sit here and try and say your experience is fictional. I have read and heard some things that conflict with your experience about the movie - but we live different lives and have different roads. For the record, I think every gay guy in the world should see this movie. Actually, most everyone should.

We'll have to disagree about the love thing, again based on experience. I think that what we call "gay culture" in particular, tends to poison the experience of love and color the very nature of relationships with a plethora of baggage that distorts and dilutes the nature of connection. These include but are not limited to sex, drugs, dating habits, and the influence of growing up gay in a world that isn't designed to build us into men when we are not hetero.

On about every level...finding, knowing and expressing, I think that the common experience of love between gay men actually is different, by and large. Of course I cannot comment on the exact quality of "knowing" love for anyone but myself. However, there is a strange commodification of relationships that goes on in the gay world that is an extreme form of what people might call the modern version of love, and it seems to be dictated by fashion. It is completely colored by porn. It completely colored by gay media. It completely colored by trends in the gay ghettos. This year it's adopting babies, last year it was commitment ceremonies, the year before it was lawyers drawing up contracts, the year before it was buying real estate together...so on and so forth. Does the nature of the feelings change - impossible to tell. I can say with a fair amount of certainty though that the way that gay men relate to each other has been influenced by the culture of "being gay". There is a certain freedom about monogamy. There is the endless and preposterous top/bottom stupidity - don't get me started on THAT particular form of hetero-aping, power based, masculinity hangup, role playing Freudian nightmares. There is also the very real problem of having to define the nature of relationships without any reliable form of a societal role model. And toss in the extreme body fascism that dominates every part of gay culture. Seen a gay rag lately ? The ads for skin stripping, pec implants, viagra, hair treatments, penis enlargements, butt augmentation, unprintable butt surgeries, teeth bleaching, and above all, substance abuse treament - it is staggering. The Jerry Springer crowd has nothing on the organized urban gay culture. It is a disaster.

Gay men do express love differently in a relationship. And it is a clear result of the societal structure. Traditional marriage is supported by a civil partnership and usually a religious binding. And children. Married couples stay together under their commitments to the law, to the church, to each other, to their children, and to their extended family. They also have the support of all of those institutions. A husband and wife show their love for each other with respect to those structures. By taking care of the kids, by strengthening the family unit, by attending church together, interacting in the community as a unit, etc, etc. These activities strengthen the love and are the things that bind them together when they may not even want to be together anymore.

That is what we lack by not having the right to marry. We can talk all we want about trying to recreate these systems on our own, but those means of expressing love are not going to happen on the same playing field and with the same support. So, no, we don't get to express love in all the same ways as other people. We can do it physically, emotionally, and personally. But not societally, and not with the same tools.

Have I seen love between gay men ? Sure. Not enough. Not lasting. Not based on the right things. I won't say it doesn't happen. I will say that it is rarer, and that gay men don't frequently don't have the tools, the experience, or the wherewithal to make it happen. Some of it societal, and some of it people's own fault.

I do not fault all gay men for the mess I describe. The "gay culture" is not even an embryo in terms of historical perspective. But currently it is in a state of shambles. It wasn't always so. So many people are completely irresponsible though, and shockingly self indulgent. That is where the root of the problem lies at this point. In spite of some valiant efforts on the part of a sane and extremely patient few. You can lead a whore to water but you can't make her choose it over booze, go to a therapist, get her off meth, or stop her from being a whore.

Didn't I mention once before in this thread not to get me started ?

[sparky]

I know you adore him, my darling, but I do question his intelligence. Which could make for some interesting fun if he is dumb, nonetheless.

I'd never claim he is a genuis. He is merely a pup - what, 26 ? And for God's sake he is an ACTOR.
I only assert that he is magentically attractive and a pretty decent performer.
Probably smart in ten years.

[Rickypt]

Actually, most everyone should.

On this, we agree! I also plan to see the movie again. My reaction to it was so completely different from the overwhelming majority that I think it deserves a second look.

And I'm not sure I could take the time to put as thoughtful a response to your post as it deserves, but I've read it and understand where you're coming from.

I share your views about urban gay "culture" to an extent, but I've come to realize that this is just a sliver of the overall gay "community". It just gets the most attention. Strip it away, and I've found the most incredible experiences of true love and commitment. My experience with the AIDS epidemic alone has shown this to me. It's the love demonstrated in the absence of societal support that amazes me.

I think that's why BB Mountain didn't move me as much as other people. I feel like I've already witnessed and been the part of so many experiences of true love between too men.

[The Tower]

We'll have to disagree about the love thing, again based on experience. I think that what we call "gay culture" in particular, tends to poison the experience of love and color the very nature of relationships with a plethora of baggage that distorts and dilutes the nature of connection. These include but are not limited to sex, drugs, dating habits,....
These aspects of culture are not limited to the gay community.

.... and the influence of growing up gay in a world that isn't designed to build us into men when we are not hetero.
This part sucks for gays- however, hets aren't exactly getting high grades on this particular aspect of growing up.

However, there is a strange commodification of relationships that goes on in the gay world that is an extreme form of what people might call the modern version of love, and it seems to be dictated by fashion.
Only in the smallest of shallow circles, which I don't think truly represents the gay community. If you are saying that circuit boys and club twinks are the definition of the "gay world" or "gay culture", then this might be true. However, I believe the majority of gays are not part of this subset.

It is completely colored by porn.
I think anything involving men, straight or gay, is colored by porn. It's an aspect of being male, not being gay.

It completely colored by gay media. It completely colored by trends in the gay ghettos.
Only if you subscribe to it.

This year it's adopting babies, last year it was commitment ceremonies, the year before it was lawyers drawing up contracts, the year before it was buying real estate together...so on and so forth.
I don't know any gay men who have done the committment thing or adopted babies. I know a LOT of lesbians who have done all that, but no men.

I can say with a fair amount of certainty though that the way that gay men relate to each other has been influenced by the culture of "being gay".
Why wouldn't it? Hets have exactly the same syndrome. There is a billion dollar industry out there that caters strictly to the concept of wedding ceremonies. A women at my job is planning her wedding and she's dropping $100,000.00 on the cost of an event that is going to occur for ten hours. I don't see why gays wouldn't be influenced by their sexuality.

There is the endless and preposterous top/bottom stupidity - don't get me started on THAT particular form of hetero-aping, power based, masculinity hangup, role playing Freudian nightmares.
Not everyone looks at the top/bottom thing as a representation of top = man / bottom = woman. Some people just like what they like. I've never had any kind of role associated with my sexuality in all of the relationships that I've had.

There is also the very real problem of having to define the nature of relationships without any reliable form of a societal role model.
Who needs a role model to define a relationship? My relationship is defined by the two people who are in it, not by what others do. The choices I make are based on consent and compromise, not some set of rules or defined standards.

And toss in the extreme body fascism that dominates every part of gay culture. Seen a gay rag lately ? The ads for skin stripping, pec implants, viagra, hair treatments, penis enlargements, butt augmentation, unprintable butt surgeries, teeth bleaching, and above all, substance abuse treament - it is staggering.
Again, all of these things are hardly exclusive to the gay community. While there are certainly sections of the gay populace that are part of these trends I think the vast majority could give a rats ass about. I oughta know, I used to work for a doctor that performed penis enlargements in the 90's.

The Jerry Springer crowd has nothing on the organized urban gay culture. It is a disaster.
Part of it is a disaster. Again, if you are defining gay culture as circuit/club twinks then you're probably right.

That is what we lack by not having the right to marry. We can talk all we want about trying to recreate these systems on our own, but those means of expressing love are not going to happen on the same playing field and with the same support. So, no, we don't get to express love in all the same ways as other people. We can do it physically, emotionally, and personally. But not societally, and not with the same tools.
And the conservative movement wants to keep it this way so that gays can never gain the same acceptance they have. That is their fear.

Have I seen love between gay men ? Sure. Not enough. Not lasting. Not based on the right things. I won't say it doesn't happen. I will say that it is rarer, and that gay men don't frequently don't have the tools, the experience, or the wherewithal to make it happen. Some of it societal, and some of it people's own fault.
To tell you the truth, I have seen a lot more non-existence of "love" in straight culture than in gay culture. So many straight people get married for reasons other than love- it was extremely prevalent in the past, not as much in current times, though.

But currently it is in a state of shambles. It wasn't always so.
I don't think that the "gay culture" was ever any better or worse than is now. For every tweaked out Tina freak today there was a coked out sex obsessed Sleep Around Sue in the 70's. It's all perspective.

So many people are completely irresponsible though, and shockingly self indulgent. That is where the root of the problem lies at this point. In spite of some valiant efforts on the part of a sane and extremely patient few. You can lead a whore to water but you can't make her choose it over booze, go to a therapist, get her off meth, or stop her from being a whore.
Yes, however, whores exist in every facet of society- not just gay society.

Didn't I mention once before in this thread not to get me started ?
Too late! :xoxo:

[Serrart]

I never said it did. However, an Oscar should celebrate particular performances, not be doled out as some sort of achievement award just because a certain actor hasn't gotten one in the past. Stack up Ledger's performance next to those of the other actors you mentioned and Ledger gave the best one. If he's nominated, he should win it. Just my opinion.

Heath Ledger is a great contender this year, he's very intense and moving and if he won, good for him, it would be another award to a great movie I'd like to see win as best picture, for the best direction, and for best supporting actress to Michelle Williams.
Among actors I just think Strathairn, my favourite, did an awesome job working on substraction (something that in Hollywood is very rare), and being able to represent not only a character but a world. Hoffmann and Phoenix instead built two very solid and nuanced perfomances, more complex than Ledger's. just my opinion. :)

Romy

[Serrart]

I haven't seen Strathairn or Phoenix, but Hoffman was in my estimation a Rich Little impersonation, though I think he is a great actor. I will reserve judgement till I see the other actors, but from Heath's previous work and his interviews, he transformed absolutely.

He definitely did, I just don't know how much must be credited for it to the whole movie and to his ability: maybe I need to watch it again since i saw it three months ago and it will be widely released in Italy only next week. Anyway I hope Michelle Williams will win, because her performance really stood out as the best of the film, IMO.

Romy

[dissention]

Among actors I just think Strathairn, my favourite, did an awesome job working on substraction (something that in Hollywood is very rare), and being able to represent not only a character but a world.

I've always liked Strathairn (his performance in John Sayles' "Limbo" is my particular favorite) and won't disagree that he gave another great performance, but it just wasn't my favorite out of all the movies I've seen this year. Is it worthy of a nomination, though? Most definitely. As for the movie itself, while pretty darned good, it was far too brief and rushed to me. It whizzed by at a breakneck speed, everything crammed into under 90 minutes, and the peripheral characters were akin to cardboard cutouts half the time. Patricia Clarkson was a mere set decoration, which annoyed me greatly.

Hoffmann and Phoenix instead built two very solid and nuanced perfomances, more complex than Ledger's. just my opinion. :)


Witherspoon was the one who impressed me in "Walk the Line," actually. Phoenix was good, don't get me wrong, but I'm not much of a fan. His performances come off as too conscious generally, at least to me. When I watch him, I feel like I'm watching an actor think about how to play a scene. It's tough to play a real life character, anyway, especially one that so many people know so well, and not once did I feel like he was ever "Johnny Cash" like I believed Hoffman to be Capote and Strathairn to be Murrow.

Anyway, it should be interesting to see who wins.

[sparky]

These aspects of culture are not limited to the gay community.

Of course not, but they are far more pervasive, common, and taken for granted in it. I would say they are the rule, and not the exception.

This part sucks for gays- however, hets aren't exactly getting high grades on this particular aspect of growing up.

Not consistently, but the men have a different chance and social set up to work within. Plus there aren't two of them trying to make some sense of what to do. There is a likelihood a straight guy is gonna find a sensible, stable woman. In fact, the culture depends upon it.

Only in the smallest of shallow circles, which I don't think truly represents the gay community. If you are saying that circuit boys and club twinks are the definition of the "gay world" or "gay culture", then this might be true. However, I believe the majority of gays are not part of this subset.


Depends on how you define the "gay world". Most gay guys over 35 don't participate in the gay world. They either pair up, get sick, or withdraw. And then, frankly, they aren't even part of what is commonly defined as gay culture.

think anything involving men, straight or gay, is colored by porn. It's an aspect of being male, not being gay.

I don't think straight men, percentage wise, are as fixated upon porn as gay men are. Granted, porn probably has contributed to the prevalence of surgery in women, but I think the beauty tyranny among gay men is far more concentrated and taken for granted in the gay world. How many gay men have not heard of the last ten years hot porn stars ? A fraction.

Only if you subscribe to it.

What other culture is there that reflects what is going on ? There isn't much of one. The only connection many gay men, especially in smaller cities have to grab onto is what is online, or to a decaying degree, in magazines like The Advocate.


I don't know any gay men who have done the committment thing or adopted babies. I know a LOT of lesbians who have done all that, but no men.

Well it is all the rage in a lot of cities, and on an unfortunate recent drive through WeHo I saw an odd number of strollers. I heard they are opening, or have opened, a Baby Gap in Chelsea.


Why wouldn't it? Hets have exactly the same syndrome. There is a billion dollar industry out there that caters strictly to the concept of wedding ceremonies. A women at my job is planning her wedding and she's dropping $100,000.00 on the cost of an event that is going to occur for ten hours. I don't see why gays wouldn't be influenced by their sexuality.

HA. Exactly. And the world of "being gay", I argue, isn't doing anyone any favors.

Not everyone looks at the top/bottom thing as a representation of top = man / bottom = woman. Some people just like what they like. I've never had any kind of role associated with my sexuality in all of the relationships that I've had.

I am not saying "everyone" or "all" in any of this. But if you think that that people's psychosexual decisions about sexual activities are not influenced by cultural and societal ideas about what equals masculine and dominant, I can't believe you are doing it with a straight face. To whit - prison bitches. Tons of straight guys have situational sex in jail, but they would never consider themselves gay because they didn't blow anyone or bend over for them. They still consider themselves "men". Or guys who are "experimenting" or "bi",
they don't consider themselves really gay if they haven't "taken it" in one way or another. It is right there in the language, man. Top is a word for winner, bottom is a word for loser. Do I believe that ? Doesn't matter. We associate that meaning with the word before we know what sex is. And you can't escape the gay mythology of the "big tough masculine top man" either.
I don't see how anyone can pretend that those ideas aren't so ingrained in our minds that they don't influence what people are or are not willing to do sexually. And it can't be argued in terms of what feels good, as there are more nerve endings on a prostate than on a penis.

Who needs a role model to define a relationship? My relationship is defined by the two people who are in it, not by what others do. The choices I make are based on consent and compromise, not some set of rules or defined standards.

Where did you learn that consent and compromise work in a relationship ? Television ? By what your parents did ? By what they didn't do ? No one NEEDS a role model. However, people are helped by seeing a working one.
I am as enamoured of creating my own models as you seem to be. Nonetheless, creating your own is fraught with peril and is a lot of work. Even the most functional hetero marriage is not a completely effective template for a gay relationship. Men have a different emotional make up than women. Some of the concepts are the same, but two men deal with each other much differently than a man and a woman. We have nowhere to learn that.


Again, all of these things are hardly exclusive to the gay community.

So they have no relevance and don't mean anything ?

While there are certainly sections of the gay populace that are part of these trends I think the vast majority could give a rats ass about.

I don't know about that. Maybe the guys who are paired off don't care. But the young single guys seem obsessed by this stuff, and this is all a new phenomenon. There are also a lot of older guys who are simply old and alone because they are self conscious about not being young, pretty muscleboys. Convinced they don't have a chance at meeting anyone. And they are spending money to change their bodies to fight their loneliness. It won't work, of course, but it is happening.

Part of it is a disaster. Again, if you are defining gay culture as circuit/club twinks then you're probably right.

Well, they are the future. And I have seen plenty of 40 year olds out there doing the same thing. It isn't just twinks I see milling about outside the meth rehab centers. Or STILL getting HIV and other STD's after all these years of knowing how to avoid them.

And the conservative movement wants to keep it this way so that gays can never gain the same acceptance they have. That is their fear.

Of course it is. It's only a matter of time before the walls come down though.


To tell you the truth, I have seen a lot more non-existence of "love" in straight culture than in gay culture. So many straight people get married for reasons other than love- it was extremely prevalent in the past, not as much in current times, though.

Did you just try and argue with a double negative ? Maybe not.
Sure there are loveless relationships all over. Marriage didn't even start out as an insititution based on love. It's a modern construct. Like other things, this is based on what we see personally. The divorce rate is a joke, and marriage is a failing institution anyway. But, that doesn't mean people have to give up, or that we have as much back up to even make such a relationship happen.

I don't think that the "gay culture" was ever any better or worse than is now. For every tweaked out Tina freak today there was a coked out sex obsessed Sleep Around Sue in the 70's. It's all perspective.

I think it is worse. For a couple reasons. Number one, we ought to know better by now. Number two, coke was never the poison that meth is. When the coke era was peaking and starting to wane, HIV just started to grab hold
and spread. Now HIV is firmly in place, and the hip thing to do is ignore safe sex, ingest poison that makes you horny for days on end, and swap fluids till ya drop. It seems that the early AIDS crisis and all the lessons that made people more responsible, for a time, never even happened. Much of an entire generation learned nothing from all that loss. The mistakes they are making are worse because the risks are greater and they have the information. Perhaps you have not seen as much wreckage as I have or I am more sensitive to it. It is pretty ugly. I am out there kind of dating, and it is just fistfuls of trash and debris, man.

[markolas]

I am out there kind of dating, and it is just fistfuls of trash and debris, man.

Okay, I'm going to basically agree with everything you're saying, but especially this. I purposefully stay out of the clubs, and you find a lot of the same crap online. You might run into someone halfway decent once in a while, but generally you run into self-destructive hornballs, or people who are so bitter and afraid that nobody is going to break through the emotional walls they've erected.

I'm not really doing the dating thing right now, and don't think I'm likely to start it up again. There are other things that are way higher on my list of priorities right now.

[BombaySapphire3]

I think that by making the top and bottom thing the be all and end of all of gay sex we have really painted ourselves into a corner .Somewhere along the line someone decided that this is what gay male sex was going to be and it has been bought into hook line and sinker.I think there are other ways of making fullfilling and passionate love without having to buy into these stereotypes .I also think that much of the AIDS crisis in the gay male community could have been averted if the top and bottom nonsense were not made into such a Holy Grail.I'm not saying this as a moral judgement .God knows I loathe the "Christian 'right.I 'came out ' at 16 in 1979 when AIDS was unknown .I thought then that the bum is not a sex organ and I still think that .Of course consenting adults have the right to do what they wish sexually.I just wish this hadn't been so pushed on us in this particular subculture so much so that anything else is not even considered sex.

[sparky]

I think that by making the top and bottom thing the be all and end of all of gay sex we have really painted ourselves into a corner .Somewhere along the line someone decided that this is what gay male sex was going to be and it has been bought into hook line and sinker.I think there are other ways of making fullfilling and passionate love without having to buy into these stereotypes .

I can see where it came from. It is all pretty obvious as far as anatomy goes, and there is no secret about the pleasure of it. The real problem I have with it is the assignation of masculinity that goes along with it. That is not only among homos, but among everyone else as well.

I also think that much of the AIDS crisis in the gay male community could have been averted if the top and bottom nonsense were not made into such a Holy Grail.

From a medical perspective you are 100% correct.

I'm not saying this as a moral judgement .God knows I loathe the "Christian 'right.I 'came out ' at 16 in 1979 when AIDS was unknown .I thought then that the bum is not a sex organ and I still think that .Of course consenting adults have the right to do what they wish sexually.I just wish this hadn't been so pushed on us in this particular subculture so much so that anything else is not even considered sex.

Whatever two people want to do that gets them off is fine with me, as long as no one gets hurt. And I don't have any problems with that particular sex act. It is just totally silly and Clintonian to think that nothing else counts as real sex. It is pretty common even among male couples to think of "just getting a bj" on a vacation isn't really considered cheating. Gimme a break.
You had an orgasm with someone else, you cheated. Own it already.

[The Tower]

I would say they are the rule, and not the exception.
Meh.

There is a likelihood a straight guy is gonna find a sensible, stable woman. In fact, the culture depends upon it.
All but one of my siblings married insensible, unstable women. I think you grant too much grace to heterosexuals.

Depends on how you define the "gay world". Most gay guys over 35 don't participate in the gay world. They either pair up, get sick, or withdraw. And then, frankly, they aren't even part of what is commonly defined as gay culture.
Who's Gay World??? My Gay World is populated by many men who have nothing to do with that Tina/Circuit set. Sorry, but the Gay World is what one makes of it and simply by being gay one is already participating in it.

I don't think straight men, percentage wise, are as fixated upon porn as gay men are.
Uh, yeah- they are. I grew up in that straight world with many a straight man around me and it is prevalent.

What other culture is there that reflects what is going on ? There isn't much of one. The only connection many gay men, especially in smaller cities have to grab onto is what is online, or to a decaying degree, in magazines like The Advocate.
I subscribe to The Advocate and it doesn't contain "decaying" culture.

Well it is all the rage in a lot of cities, and on an unfortunate recent drive through WeHo I saw an odd number of strollers. I heard they are opening, or have opened, a Baby Gap in Chelsea.
I've lived in WeHo for 13 years now and those strollers you are seeing are from all the hets moving in that are trying to move in to the improving real estate. There are no gays walking around in this city pushing strollers.

HA. Exactly. And the world of "being gay", I argue, isn't doing anyone any favors.
Says who? What about that lonely fag in the middle of nowhere America? Maybe that culture is actually supporting him to say, "It's okay to be gay instead of ashamed". Why is it that straights are the only ones that can revel in their sexuality and be proud of who they are?

I am not saying "everyone" or "all" in any of this. But if you think that that people's psychosexual decisions about sexual activities are not influenced by cultural and societal ideas about what equals masculine and dominant, I can't believe you are doing it with a straight face.
Meh. It's only people who look to the concept of masculine vs. feminine that apply that concept to top vs. bottom.

To whit - prison bitches. Tons of straight guys have situational sex in jail, but they would never consider themselves gay because they didn't blow anyone or bend over for them. They still consider themselves "men". Or guys who are "experimenting" or "bi",
they don't consider themselves really gay if they haven't "taken it" in one way or another.
Oh please... now gay culture is being defined by men who are incarcerated and have no sexual outlet other than their hand or other men??

It is right there in the language, man. Top is a word for winner, bottom is a word for loser. Do I believe that ? Doesn't matter. We associate that meaning with the word before we know what sex is.
Only within your own perspective. Not everyone sees it that way. I certainly never have.

And you can't escape the gay mythology of the "big tough masculine top man" either.
It's easy as pie. The Power Bottom. They are just as masculine as any "top".

I don't see how anyone can pretend that those ideas aren't so ingrained in our minds that they don't influence what people are or are not willing to do sexually.
That's making the presumption that those ideas are actually ingrained in our minds.

Where did you learn that consent and compromise work in a relationship ? Television ? By what your parents did ? By what they didn't do ? No one NEEDS a role model. However, people are helped by seeing a working one.
From experience. It took a lot of time to get where I am today. It was trial and error. And a lot of mistakes and learning. It certainly wasn't from seeing something that I thought I could or would want to emulate.

Men have a different emotional make up than women. Some of the concepts are the same, but two men deal with each other much differently than a man and a woman. We have nowhere to learn that.
Absolutely. However, I believe that instinct bears that out. And isn't that what Brokeback Mountain is all about (I've read the short story years ago, but haven't seen the flick).

So they have no relevance and don't mean anything ?
They do, but not on the earth-shattering, all-encompassing level you portray them to.

I don't know about that. Maybe the guys who are paired off don't care. But the young single guys seem obsessed by this stuff, and this is all a new phenomenon. There are also a lot of older guys who are simply old and alone because they are self conscious about not being young, pretty muscleboys. Convinced they don't have a chance at meeting anyone. And they are spending money to change their bodies to fight their loneliness. It won't work, of course, but it is happening.
Both the young and old are obsessed with it because they are convinced that they only way to find love is to be physically attractive. However, I don't think the physical change concept is as prevalent as you would like to believe it is.

Well, they are the future. And I have seen plenty of 40 year olds out there doing the same thing. It isn't just twinks I see milling about outside the meth rehab centers. Or STILL getting HIV and other STD's after all these years of knowing how to avoid them.
I prefer to see the glass half full. The world is so much better for gay people these days. Can you believe it? Brokeback Mountain could have never existed just ten/fifteen years ago. Drug abusers and sex freaks will exist until the end of time. Ruminating on their crassness isn't going to change anything. The gay culture is not plagued by those people. It is a problem. But, it is also a problem in the hetersexual community and not a harbinger of the end of the gay community.

I think it is worse. For a couple reasons. Number one, we ought to know better by now. Number two, coke was never the poison that meth is.
I agree with you there.

Now HIV is firmly in place, and the hip thing to do is ignore safe sex, ingest poison that makes you horny for days on end, and swap fluids till ya drop. It seems that the early AIDS crisis and all the lessons that made people more responsible, for a time, never even happened.
The Bug Chaser story is quite sensationalized.

Much of an entire generation learned nothing from all that loss. The mistakes they are making are worse because the risks are greater and they have the information. Perhaps you have not seen as much wreckage as I have or I am more sensitive to it. It is pretty ugly. I am out there kind of dating, and it is just fistfuls of trash and debris, man.
I'm sure that you are seeing more of it, which is probably why you are over-emphasizing it. Again, I have many gay friends that are in the dating pool (even if I am not) and they are not the Tina using, Bug Chasing, immoral fiends you seem to be inferring that a significant portion of the gay community seems to be.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

It's easy as pie. The Power Bottom. They are just as masculine as any "top".


hmmmmmmmmmm..........

[markolas]

Oy. Now I'm starting to agree with Tower more. I can't deal with these "I don't have anal sex" weirdos. :sorry:

[sparky]

All but one of my siblings married insensibled unstable women. I think you grant too much grace to heterosexuals.

I am granting grace to math. Women don't have the same kind of baggage as men. Two people of the same sex with similar problems amplify.

Who's Gay World??? My Gay World is populated by many men who have nothing to do with that Tina/Circuit set. Sorry, but the Gay World is what one makes of it and simply by being gay one is already participating in it.


Preferring to have sex with other men is participating in the Gay World ? I know a number of gay guys who consider themselves gay and live in LA who never go to Weho, don't read gay rags, and don't even have gay friends. They are in the Gay World ?

Uh, yeah- they are. I grew up in that straight world with many a straight man around me and it is prevalent.

Most of my friends are straight guys and they don't have porn collections like my gay friends and do. Not a fraction. They don't go to plays with straight porn stars in them.

I subscribe to The Advocate and it doesn't contain "decaying" culture.

Decaying was referring to the declining existence of magazines.


I've lived in WeHo for 13 years now and those strollers you are seeing are from all the hets moving in that are trying to move in to the improving real estate. There are no gays walking around in this city pushing strollers.

Funny, I met three gay couples at parties this holiday season. They all had kids under three and two couples live in Weho. They told me they know guys all over the country who are in the same position and they talk in chat rooms to swap parenting stories. I suppose I imagined these guys.

Says who? What about that lonely fag in the middle of nowhere America? Maybe that culture is actually supporting him to say, "It's okay to be gay instead of ashamed". Why is it that straights are the only ones that can revel in their sexuality and be proud of who they are?

Maybe it is. Everyone can revel in their sexuality and be proud. Not enough are.


It's only people who look to the concept of masculine vs. feminine that apply that concept to top vs. bottom.

Which is about 90% of the population of the planet. I am not talking about YOU. I am talking about the over riding message in the culture, and meanings assigned to words. You may have become so enlightened about yourself and sexualtiy that you are beyond all that, apparently, but that is not the entire world.

Oh please... now gay culture is being defined by men who are incarcerated and have no sexual outlet other than their hand or other men??


I saw that coming. The prison thing is a controlled environment, but that doesn't mean it isn't reflective of how men see the concept of power and masculinity and associate it with sex. It is actually a strangely clear picture of how men see power and sex, completely free of women and any gay culture. That is instinct and nature talking. The other example didn't matter ? Or wasn't easy enough to make fun of ? You really can't see the big picture here, and I can't make you. If you think everyone sees that power relationship the way you do, enjoy. I am not saying you are wrong in your view of it, I am saying you are in a distinct minority, and that the view of the majority influences the way others view their sexuality. It may not have affected YOU, but I think it affects most other people.

Only within your own perspective. Not everyone sees it that way. I certainly never have.

You're talking personal, and I am talking concepts. You have found a way to be absolutely separate from cultural and accepted influence of language, evidently. The majority of the people aren't.

It's easy as pie. The Power Bottom. They are just as masculine as any "top".

In the eyes of some. In the eyes of many, I simply don't think that's true.

That's making the presumption that those ideas are actually ingrained in our minds.

I see evidence of it every day. Every time I talk to people about sex, particularly gay sex, I hear it. It is the prevalent attitude among people in this culture. Maybe not in your house, but in this country. You can see it in reactions to Brokeback - sure, Jack was the one pushing Ennis to ditch everything and run away with him, but that is not the only reason people say he was the "more gay" of the two. It has to do with the first sex scene.
I have overheard more than five conversations between straight guys in theatres about the movie, where they are laughing and a comment like, "So which one is the woman ?" is made. I suppose I made that up, right ? And that is not indicative of what anyone thinks about the subject.

From experience. It took a lot of time to get where I am today. It was trial and error. And a lot of mistakes and learning. It certainly wasn't from seeing something that I thought I could or would want to emulate.

Well, that sucks. It might have been better if you had seen something worth emulating.

Absolutely. However, I believe that instinct bears that out. And isn't that what Brokeback Mountain is all about (I've read the short story years ago, but haven't seen the flick).

Not really. It doesn't go into that too much.

They do, but not on the earth-shattering, all-encompassing level you portray them to.

I think they do a lot more damage than you seem willing to acknowledge. In terms of percentage of the community.

Both the young and old are obsessed with it because they are convinced that they only way to find love is to be physically attractive. However, I don't think the physical change concept is as prevalent as you would like to believe it is.

Granted, I haven't traversed the country doing research. I have seen local magazines. I have seen whack jobs walking the streets. And I have read percentages about men who get surgery, which are sharply increasing. I suppose all those guys are straight.

I prefer to see the glass half full. The world is so much better for gay people these days.

By and large, way better. For people outside of big cities, and all over, it is easier.

Can you believe it? Brokeback Mountain could have never existed just ten/fifteen years ago.

Of course I believe it. The world has changed.

Drug abusers and sex freaks will exist until the end of time. Ruminating on their crassness isn't going to change anything. The gay culture is not plagued by those people. It is a problem. But, it is also a problem in the hetersexual community and not a harbinger of the end of the gay community.

I am not looking to change it. But I think it is an enormous problem.
Is it the end ? I never said that. It's just ugly.


The Bug Chaser story is quite sensationalized.

I am not talking about bug chasers. I am talking about people who are sexually out of control.

I'm sure that you are seeing more of it, which is probably why you are over-emphasizing it. Again, I have many gay friends that are in the dating pool (even if I am not) and they are not the Tina using, Bug Chasing, immoral fiends you seem to be inferring that a significant portion of the gay community seems to be.

I am not Chicken Little. For some reason you distrust and disbelieve almost every thing I have seen and said. I can't for a second imagine why you think I am fictionalizing what I have experienced. This is not a bunch of bull**** I came up with overnight. I have been single the better part of two years and have been meeting a ton of people all over this city, even though I haven't been "dating". Do me a favor. Pretend you are a single for a month. Hit some websites, meet some guys, go to some bars, try to meet some people. Pretend you are looking for sex. Just for the fun of it. See how many people don't ask about HIV status or safe sex(or don't mention it in profiles online), how many people like to "party", how many people are a straight up mess. Then get back to me and tell me I am being hysterical, making up stories, and exaggerating. I would be thrilled to know how it goes for you.
Maybe there is an entire city I somehow missed that you could discover.

[strandinthewind]

Two LA fags arguing over the gay culture :laugh: :laugh: :wavey:

[Rickypt]

You might run into someone halfway decent once in a while, but generally you run into self-destructive hornballs, or people who are so bitter and afraid that nobody is going to break through the emotional walls they've erected.

I'm not really doing the dating thing right now, and don't think I'm likely to start it up again. There are other things that are way higher on my list of priorities right now.

I'm having the some trouble now that I'm trying to date again. But I've come to understand many of the self-destructive and bitter gay men, even if they aren't great boyfriend material. Behind every self-destructive and bitter person is a sad tale. One would say that my late partner was self-destructive, but he was a survivor of abuse. I recently completed rehab for meth addiction, and I got hooked to escape severe grief from losing a lover at the age of 33. Everyone in my rehab group had a reason why became addicted--it's not as simple as gay men love the wild sex while high.

I talk to bitter alcoholics at bars all the time. They are among the most interesting people I've ever met. And every single one has lost a lover and countless friends.

Gay men, especially those over a certain age have had an extremely rough time that many other people haven't had to deal with. Cumulative grief and dealing with the horrors of death at young ages, combined with the other crappy things we have to deal with in society takes a toll on people.

I spend every day fighting bitterness and I hope I win.

I know there are a lot of a*hole gay men out there. I don't think percentage wise, there are any more than any other subgroup of society.

I respect everyone's own experiences, but it makes me a little sad to read so much vitriol from gay men about gay men. We deal with enough of that from the outside world.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Oy. Now I'm starting to agree with Tower more. I can't deal with these "I don't have anal sex" weirdos. :sorry:

Thanks. :rolleyes:






:woohoo:

[Rickypt]

Also, Sparky is right: gay men are adopting kids right and left (at least in San Francisco). My best friends adopted last year. They spent 5 years trying to adopt precisely because of their real love and desire to raise a kid together.

I'm not getting that adoption is just a fad. Now that gay men are done with the battle to have sex, and have made much progress in the battle to stay alive, it makes perfect sense to me that many gay men are ready to raise a family. I want nothing more.

[The Tower]

Preferring to have sex with other men is participating in the Gay World ? I know a number of gay guys who consider themselves gay and live in LA who never go to Weho, don't read gay rags, and don't even have gay friends. They are in the Gay World ?
I think once one discovers that they are gay their perspective of the world "clicks". When that "click" happens one is now part of the gay world. It changes the way you look at things and it changes the way you operate. Even if the changes are slight, they are still there. It's almost like being part of another race/color. The Gay World has many different facets with the only similar characteristic possessed by all the members being the fact that they are gay. I don't think that The Gay World = circuit boys/meth heads.

Most of my friends are straight guys and they don't have porn collections like my gay friends and do. Not a fraction. They don't go to plays with straight porn stars in them.
So, I guess it's all these gay guys out there that are keeping the strip club empire in business. And the porno rags. And the straight porno industry. And the dozens of cable and digital pay channels that are out there. And the twenty to thirty straight porn movies that are on every hotel pay per view channel out there.

Straight men don't have to buy porn. It's so prevalent that it's there with a click of a button or a walk down to your local strip club a.k.a. brothel. And they certainly don't need the independent theater industry to showcase their adult film stars. They have cable networks putting together fukc films/biographies on such lumenaries as Jenna Jamison an others.

Decaying was referring to the declining existence of magazines.
I subscribe to Instinct, Genre, and Out and I think those a pretty good magazines. Genre has recently changed their format and is a better magazine for it. You might want to check them out.

Funny, I met three gay couples at parties this holiday season. They all had kids under three and two couples live in Weho. They told me they know guys all over the country who are in the same position and they talk in chat rooms to swap parenting stories. I suppose I imagined these guys.
No, I'm pretty sure you didn't imagine them. I just don't see it in my circles of life. Every one in my building is gay and they are all from their mid-thirties to late-forties. No kids, though. I dunno. I think maybe the baby thing is just a symptom of the slowly growing acceptance of gays within society.

Which is about 90% of the population of the planet. I am not talking about YOU. I am talking about the over riding message in the culture, and meanings assigned to words. You may have become so enlightened about yourself and sexualtiy that you are beyond all that, apparently, but that is not the entire world.
No need to get catty.

You really can't see the big picture here, and I can't make you. If you think everyone sees that power relationship the way you do, enjoy. I am not saying you are wrong in your view of it, I am saying you are in a distinct minority, and that the view of the majority influences the way others view their sexuality. It may not have affected YOU, but I think it affects most other people.
I guess I am in a minority. I don't feel like it, though. I guess I'm just getting older.

I have overheard more than five conversations between straight guys in theatres about the movie, where they are laughing and a comment like, "So which one is the woman ?" is made. I suppose I made that up, right ? And that is not indicative of what anyone thinks about the subject.
I doesn't surprise me at all that any straight man would have made that comment.

Well, that sucks. It might have been better if you had seen something worth emulating.
Eh, life usually isn't fair.

I am not looking to change it. But I think it is an enormous problem.
Is it the end ? I never said that. It's just ugly.
I absolutely agree with you.

I am not Chicken Little. For some reason you distrust and disbelieve almost every thing I have seen and said. I can't for a second imagine why you think I am fictionalizing what I have experienced. This is not a bunch of bull**** I came up with overnight. I have been single the better part of two years and have been meeting a ton of people all over this city, even though I haven't been "dating".
I'm sorry if you got that impression. I just don't think that gay culture is a bad thing. I not necessarily saying that you do.

Do me a favor. Pretend you are a single for a month. Hit some websites, meet some guys, go to some bars, try to meet some people. Pretend you are looking for sex. Just for the fun of it. See how many people don't ask about HIV status or safe sex(or don't mention it in profiles online), how many people like to "party", how many people are a straight up mess. Then get back to me and tell me I am being hysterical, making up stories, and exaggerating. I would be thrilled to know how it goes for you.
While it sounds like an appetizing prospect, my partner would not be too thrilled about it. I never said you were hysterical or making up stories and I know that the people you have described are out there. They just have never been a part of my life or my dating experiences. When I was in my early 20's in the late 80's/early 90's I dated a LOT of guys and I didn't see the messes that you are talking about. It probably has to do with the fact that I am not part of the "hot" section of gay life- there aren't many messes in the Comic Book Geek/Choir Boy section of gay culture. Maybe not. Maybe the whole dating scene has changed significantly in the last ten years. My friends who are currently in the dating pool are in their late 30's and tend to date within their social circles instead of crusing the net, so perhaps that's why they aren't running into the type of people you have described.

[The Tower]

Two LA fags arguing over the gay culture :laugh: :laugh: :wavey:
Quiet, you.



:p :xoxo:

I respect everyone's own experiences, but it makes me a little sad to read so much vitriol from gay men about gay men. We deal with enough of that from the outside world.
Amen to that, sistah.

[BombaySapphire3]

Also, Sparky is right: gay men are adopting kids right and left (at least in San Francisco). My best friends adopted last year. They spent 5 years trying to adopt precisely because of their real love and desire to raise a kid together.

I'm not getting that adoption is just a fad. Now that gay men are done with the battle to have sex, and have made much progress in the battle to stay alive, it makes perfect sense to me that many gay men are ready to raise a family. I want nothing more.
Well call me old fashioned but I have no desire to A. Get married B. Join the military and last but not least C. Have children.I'm all for other gay people having the right to do these things.I always considered not having to have children one of the few perques of being a gay man .:lol:

[sparky]

Two LA fags arguing over the gay culture :laugh: :laugh: :wavey:

Got anything more than a cheap joke to offer to the discussion ?
:shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Got anything more than a cheap joke to offer to the discussion ?
:shrug:


I have been sick for a week - that was the best I could give.

I will say this though. I think people are people no matter what gets them off. I also think the squeaky wheels get the oil in that all people tend to focus on when defining a group like gay people is most noticeable types a la the drag queens at the Gay Pride parades, etc.

I mean I know gay and straight sluts, gay and straight nerds, gay and straight "normal" people, etc. So, I tend not to define the entire gay or straight scene by the actions of some or even the majority. Having said that, a nightclub scene certainly exists in both the gay and straight worlds and that scene tends to be what people think of, etc.

I hope that made sense - I am on painkillers - wheeeeeeeeee :wavey:

[sparky]

I think once one discovers that they are gay their perspective of the world "clicks". When that "click" happens one is now part of the gay world. It changes the way you look at things and it changes the way you operate. Even if the changes are slight, they are still there. It's almost like being part of another race/color. The Gay World has many different facets with the only similar characteristic possessed by all the members being the fact that they are gay. I don't think that The Gay World = circuit boys/meth heads.

Maybe this is about the fact that there is no real gay world at all to speak of. The one I describe to you is the one I have seen of late. In my last relationship, my social life consisted of a lot of cocktail parties and dinners with affluent gay men in the entertainment industry. Is that the gay world ? I couldn't tell you.


So, I guess it's all these gay guys out there that are keeping the strip club empire in business. And the porno rags. And the straight porno industry. And the dozens of cable and digital pay channels that are out there. And the twenty to thirty straight porn movies that are on every hotel pay per view channel out there.

Straight men don't have to buy porn. It's so prevalent that it's there with a click of a button or a walk down to your local strip club a.k.a. brothel. And they certainly don't need the independent theater industry to showcase their adult film stars. They have cable networks putting together fukc films/biographies on such lumenaries as Jenna Jamison an others.

I can only talk about my pals. And they aren't dating someone who is into porn as much as they are, to whatever degree that is. I think gay guys have more involvement and interest in it - it is two men. Double the interest. And no one to tell you that it is bad to do it. Which I don't really think it always is.


I subscribe to Instinct, Genre, and Out and I think those a pretty good magazines. Genre has recently changed their format and is a better magazine for it. You might want to check them out.

Been there and got bored, but maybe they are better now.


No, I'm pretty sure you didn't imagine them. I just don't see it in my circles of life. Every one in my building is gay and they are all from their mid-thirties to late-forties. No kids, though. I dunno. I think maybe the baby thing is just a symptom of the slowly growing acceptance of gays within society.

It sure seems to be exploding.


No need to get catty.

Catty wasn't my goal. I just wanted you to look past yourself.


I guess I am in a minority. I don't feel like it, though. I guess I'm just getting older.

Maybe.

I doesn't surprise me at all that any straight man would have made that comment.

Me neither. And the kids hear it. And other people think it but don't say it. And thus the environment in which those words become loaded is created. That's what I was yammering about. The beliefs are there, and they are hard to escape.

Eh, life usually isn't fair.

Yup.

I absolutely agree with you.

It isn't pretty, man.


I'm sorry if you got that impression.

More than once. And quite frankly, it was pissing me off.

I just don't think that gay culture is a bad thing. I not necessarily saying that you do.

Juat haven't seen much of the good part lately.


While it sounds like an appetizing prospect, my partner would not be too thrilled about it. I never said you were hysterical or making up stories and I know that the people you have described are out there. They just have never been a part of my life or my dating experiences.

Like I said, you kind of implied it, but I am over it. You're lucky about not seeing such things.


When I was in my early 20's in the late 80's/early 90's I dated a LOT of guys and I didn't see the messes that you are talking about. It probably has to do with the fact that I am not part of the "hot" section of gay life- there aren't many messes in the Comic Book Geek/Choir Boy section of gay culture. Maybe not. Maybe the whole dating scene has changed significantly in the last ten years. My friends who are currently in the dating pool are in their late 30's and tend to date within their social circles instead of crusing the net, so perhaps that's why they aren't running into the type of people you have described.

You know what ? It has changed. A lot. I last dated five years ago and it was nothing like this. I am not even seriously dating ! Just putting my toe in the water and the water looks, smells and feels pretty toxic.
As far as social circles go, I know tons of gay men peripherally. Look at my job. But, I tell you, they are from a completely different island of misfit toys. Nothing compels me to join. And the internet has become pretty screwed up too. It has done a 360 in 5 years. I can't tell you how foul it looks. But, grim or not, there it is. When I feel inspired, I will continue flipping over rocks, and find new places to look for pals.

[sparky]

I'm having the some trouble now that I'm trying to date again. But I've come to understand many of the self-destructive and bitter gay men, even if they aren't great boyfriend material. Behind every self-destructive and bitter person is a sad tale. One would say that my late partner was self-destructive, but he was a survivor of abuse. I recently completed rehab for meth addiction, and I got hooked to escape severe grief from losing a lover at the age of 33. Everyone in my rehab group had a reason why became addicted--it's not as simple as gay men love the wild sex while high.

I totally get self destructive and bitter people. I was bred from a long line of depressed drunks. Bad backgrounds explain a lot, maybe that is what is going on with all the people I have run across. Understanding them doesn't make me want them around, however.

I talk to bitter alcoholics at bars all the time. They are among the most interesting people I've ever met. And every single one has lost a lover and countless friends.

AA people are fascinating, and have the best stories. And frequently enormous hearts.

Gay men, especially those over a certain age have had an extremely rough time that many other people haven't had to deal with. Cumulative grief and dealing with the horrors of death at young ages, combined with the other crappy things we have to deal with in society takes a toll on people.


I realize this. I wonder where this behavior is coming from in 19-25 year olds ? Is it simply being part of a culture where it has all become acceptable ?

I spend every day fighting bitterness and I hope I win.

I, for one, hope you do too.

I know there are a lot of a*hole gay men out there. I don't think percentage wise, there are any more than any other subgroup of society.

I don't know the answer to that. I am just seeing a shocking amount of wreckage.

I respect everyone's own experiences, but it makes me a little sad to read so much vitriol from gay men about gay men. We deal with enough of that from the outside world.

I suspect it is my comments that you are interpreting as vitriol. I don't mean them that way. The truth is that I am disappointed, frustrated, and angry about what I have been seeing. If I meet one more guy who is handsome, interesting, educated, and otherwise healthy who has been up for two or three days high..I don't know what to do...scream ? Punch a wall ? Give up ?
I am out of patience when it comes to seeing so many people hurt themselves and ruin themselves. Sure, I understand the backstories Sure I have sympathy. But I am past cutting slack. Call me callous if you need to. That's okay. Maybe I am. But life is short, and I have dealt with enough grief myself. My grief card is full.

I just want to meet healthy guys who have it together, and they seem to be in short supply here is Los Angeles. But, that's okay. I am persistent, and I haven't been looking all that hard yet.

[The Tower]

More than once. And quite frankly, it was pissing me off.
Can we kiss and make up now??? :xoxo:

[sparky]

Can we kiss and make up now??? :xoxo:

You bet.:xoxo:

[Johnny Stew]

In my opinion, the "dark" side of the gay community... the drug abuse, the self-destructive behaviour, etc.... is akin to self-fulfilling prophecy. I think it's ingrained in so many people's minds, that this is the best that gay men can hope for. So have fun and abuse your body, because there's nothing better out there for you. And, worse, you don't "deserve" anything better.

Younger gay men know they WANT more out of life, but as they grow up and look around, it's hard for them to find reassurance that they can HAVE more.
Growing old and being alone is a frightening thought, especially when it feels like the whole world is against you, so just making the absolute most out of a hedonistic lifestyle while you're still young, starts to seem like the only alternative and the only means by which to express yourself. There's nothing more soul-destroying than feeling you have no options.

As we've all seen, not everyone is equipped to navigate the ups and downs of being gay, and healthy role models are extremely few and far between. So many younger gay men make all the bad decisions, because they lack any guidance and they can't (or are afraid to) see the bigger picture, so they opt for the "have fun while it lasts" approach.

It's almost like "Latch-Key Kid" syndrome... left to their own devices, with no parental guidance, most kids who come home to an empty house will indulge their impulses: eating junk food, watching violent movies, having unprotected sex with their friends at younger and younger ages, etc.
The majority of younger gay men are absolutely left to their own devices, with no one around to help steer them in healthier directions... and they, too, indulge their impulses.

So that's why I think it's extremely important that we "older" (and hopefully wiser) gay men try to offer good role models to the younger generations. Show them that their lives can be anything they want them to be, and that they don't have to be tied down to societal constraints, whether within or outside of the gay community.
Show them that being the "bitter and lonely old queen" or the "used up and burned out former club-kid" aren't their only options for the future.

The only way we can "fix" the troubled areas of the gay community, and lessen their stranglehold on our culture, is to do something that involves thinking beyond our own noses: helping to guide the younger generations.

[Johnny Stew]

When I was in my early 20's in the late 80's/early 90's I dated a LOT of guys and I didn't see the messes that you are talking about. It probably has to do with the fact that I am not part of the "hot" section of gay life- there aren't many messes in the Comic Book Geek/Choir Boy section of gay culture.I've definitely seen and known exactly the kinds of guys Sparky is describing... and it can be totally discouraging when you're in the dating pool. I've always had faith that there are "good guys" out there though, and that it's just a matter of finding the right guy for you, so it's funny you mention "Comic Book Geeks".... because that's exactly what I found in Joshua: a "comic book geek" just like myself. :)

[The Tower]

In my opinion, the "dark" side of the gay community... the drug abuse, the self-destructive behaviour, etc.... is akin to self-fulfilling prophecy. I think it's ingrained in so many people's minds, that this is the best that gay men can hope for. So have fun and abuse your body, because there's nothing better out there for you. And, worse, you don't "deserve" anything better.

Younger gay men know they WANT more out of life, but as they grow up and look around, it's hard for them to find reassurance that they can HAVE more.
Growing old and being alone is a frightening thought, especially when it feels like the whole world is against you, so just making the absolute most out of a hedonistic lifestyle while you're still young, starts to seem like the only alternative and the only means by which to express yourself. There's nothing more soul-destroying than feeling you have no options.

As we've all seen, not everyone is equipped to navigate the ups and downs of being gay, and healthy role models are extremely few and far between. So many younger gay men make all the bad decisions, because they lack any guidance and they can't (or are afraid to) see the bigger picture, so they opt for the "have fun while it lasts" approach.

It's almost like "Latch-Key Kid" syndrome... left to their own devices, with no parental guidance, most kids who come home to an empty house will indulge their impulses: eating junk food, watching violent movies, having unprotected sex with their friends at younger and younger ages, etc.
The majority of younger gay men are absolutely left to their own devices, with no one around to help steer them in healthier directions... and they, too, indulge their impulses.

So that's why I think it's extremely important that we "older" (and hopefully wiser) gay men try to offer good role models to the younger generations. Show them that their lives can be anything they want them to be, and that they don't have to be tied down to societal constraints, whether within or outside of the gay community.
Show them that being the "bitter and lonely old queen" or the "used up and burned out former club-kid" aren't their only options for the future.

The only way we can "fix" the troubled areas of the gay community, and lessen their stranglehold on our culture, is to do something that involves thinking beyond our own noses: helping to guide the younger generations.
I've read everything you've said and it sounds like a Miss America speech to me.

I was going to say "I'm sorry", but that would be disingenuous. So, I'll just say, "You are full of ****", which was the first thought that came to my mind. So other than "you make me want to puke", there's not much I can say.

[Johnny Stew]

I've read everything you've said and it sounds like a Miss America speech to me.

I was going to say "I'm sorry", but that would be disingenuous. So, I'll just say, "You are full of ****", which was the first thought that came to my mind. So other than "you make me want to puke", there's not much I can say.Aww, my widdle feelings are all hurt now... Towie thinks I'm too nice. :p

Why am I full of ****? For wanting to be a GOOD role model? What's wrong with wanting to be a positive influence rather than yet another negative one? What's wrong with caring about the quality of someone else's future rather than just your own?

On second thought, you don't have to answer. I'm happy doing my own thing, and your happy doing your own, and, at the end of the day, neither of us is really going to care what the other thinks, so why bother pretending like we do?

Now where did I put my tiara and scepter.....

[The Tower]

Aww, my widdle feelings are all hurt now... Towie thinks I'm too nice. :p
I thought you were too fake.

Why am I full of ****? For wanting to be a GOOD role model? What's wrong with wanting to be a positive influence rather than yet another negative one? What's wrong with caring about the quality of someone else's future rather than just your own?
You're full of **** because what you say is preposterous and makes me want to vomit. I'm filled to the brim with your dreck.

On second thought, you don't have to answer.
Why not? I'm so tired of your ramblings, anyway.

I'm happy doing my own thing, and your happy doing your own, and, at the end of the day, neither of us is really going to care what the other thinks, so why bother pretending like we do?
I will never pretend anything. So how far has your relationship gone beyond a web cam?

Now where did I put my tiara and scepter.....
Probably up your ass.

[estranged4life]

I've always had faith that there are "good guys" out there though, and that it's just a matter of finding the right guy for you, so it's funny you mention "Comic Book Geeks".... because that's exactly what I found in Joshua: a "comic book geek" just like myself. :)

I hate to admit but I am a comic book geek!!! Have almost all the Superman titles from 1986-2006 and the only other thing I collect comic book wise is S.I.P. (Terry Moore's "Strangers in Paradise"-My image in my signature is Katchoo from S.I.P.) which has a large gay fan following:

http://www.strangersinparadise.com

Gee, Guess I am somewhat a nerd...Big whoopdie doo (Look at my music collecting & electronic stereo equipment fetish!!!!), Hell everyone in my family was/is nerdy in one way or another.

Btw, Deb still wants to see this movie, But it isnt playing anywhere around here...May check out OKC this coming weekend if my back holdsout til then (I am suffering a FUBAR'd back right now!)

[sparky]

Btw, Deb still wants to see this movie, But it isnt playing anywhere around here...May check out OKC this coming weekend if my back holdsout til then (I am suffering a FUBAR'd back right now!)


Awesome. I always knew that Deb was cool. I just got that vibe.:thumbsup:

[estranged4life]

Awesome. I always knew that Deb was cool. I just got that vibe.:thumbsup:

(And calming affect on my tightly wound happy irritating ass) one reason why we've been married for almost 13 years (Been together 15 years).

She is a big Heath Ledger fan and wants to see Brokeback Mountain (She hopes he wins a ton of awards for his role), So we will probably see if it is playing in the city this Friday.

[Johnny Stew]

I thought you were too fake.

You're full of **** because what you say is preposterous and makes me want to vomit. I'm filled to the brim with your dreck.

I'm so tired of your ramblings, anyway.

So how far has your relationship gone beyond a web cam?

I’m sure there are more than a few people who got a good laugh out of those comments, and I actually had a very different response typed out to you, than this one that I’m posting. I could have easily been cruel and posted it if I wanted to... and, truth be told, a part of me really did want to. But what would it prove? I hope I’m a better person than that.

Call that self-righteousness, or whatever you choose to.

[amber]

I’m sure there are more than a few people who got a good laugh out of those comments, and I actually had a very different response typed out to you, than this one that I’m posting. I could have easily been cruel and posted it if I wanted to... and, truth be told, a part of me really did want to. But what would it prove? I hope I’m a better person than that.

Call that self-righteousness, or whatever you choose to.

I'd call it incredible self control.

[sparky]

I'd call it incredible self control.

AMber ? When did you add that quote of mine to your sig ?:lol:

[BombaySapphire3]

I've read everything you've said and it sounds like a Miss America speech to me.

.
Really ? I was thinking more along the lines of an elongated version of that little speech Jerry Springer always gives at the end of his shows.

[Rickypt]

I realize this. I wonder where this behavior is coming from in 19-25 year olds ? Is it simply being part of a culture where it has all become acceptable ?

It could be that, or it could simply be that they are 19-25 year olds. There is nothing new about young people of any sexual orientation engaging in self-destructive behavior. I realize that the young guys aren't necessarily getting into speed because of cumulative grief. Many are simply experimenting with drugs, caving to peer pressure, etc.

I, for one, hope you do too.

Thank you!

I suspect it is my comments that you are interpreting as vitriol.

I used too harsh a word, and I wasn't just referring to your comments. "Judgemental" was probably a better word.

The truth is that I am disappointed, frustrated, and angry about what I have been seeing. If I meet one more guy who is handsome, interesting, educated, and otherwise healthy who has been up for two or three days high..I don't know what to do...scream ? Punch a wall ? Give up ?

First of all, me too. I have been rather shocked to see what is going on in the "scene" now that I'm trying to date again.

So I get your frustration and disappointment. But I also know that for every person you've described, there are a bunch of gay guys who don't get high and have the same values and approach to life that you do. I've been getting involved with a lot of social gay clubs in SF (book clubs, sports groups, etc.) and they are filled with these guys.

I just want to meet healthy guys who have it together, and they seem to be in short supply here is Los Angeles. But, that's okay. I am persistent, and I haven't been looking all that hard yet.

I don't know the LA gay community, but I imagine it might be harder to find the quality guys simply because the city is so spread out. San Francisco is small, with a zillion gay men in a tiny geographical area. So perhaps it's easier to find and meet people beyond the party/club/gym/bar scene.

I think your last sentence says a lot. Look hard, and I'll bet you'll find what you're looking for. There are tons of healthy gay men out there that will gravitate towards someone with your sensitivity and intellect.

[strandinthewind]

I . . . how far has your relationship gone beyond a web cam?

Though possibly true and though ya know I loves ya more than my luggage, that comment was below the belt. But, he opened the door by dispensing his views and you just walked through it - albeit you stomped through it :cool:

As for what he said, I agree that it is too sugary for me, but for probably different reasons than you think it is. My reason is I, as an affluent and well educated white male from an old Southern family, never needed nor sought anyone to look up to in that capacity, though I admired many people for their talent, La Nicks is a good example. I just found and mostly still find all the strength I needed or need right here in my own body. Moreover, I have never aspired to be anyone's role model, but I am sure that just because of the better things I have done in my public life like teaching underpriviledged kids, giving school supplies to the poor, and countless other chraitable stuff - some may have looked to me as just that. But, maybe the ideal the Brian set forth will save some weaker kid's life - maybe I did that unknowingly through those acts - and that can be nothing but a good thing no matter how pow wow or trite it comes across.

As for BB Mountain, I do not see that film as any type of positive role model because they lived a lie. I suppose it could be seen in the light of the times and as a lesson that times have, for the most part, vastly changed for the better so that Jack and Ennis likely could have been together in this day and age.

Now where did I put my tiara and scepter.....

Please remember I loaned them to you and they are way over due. I tell ya, when the lower classes want to pretend to be actual royalty, shiitte like this always happens.

[gldstwmn]

Probably up your ass.

Hey man, is everything okay with you? :confused:

[Rickypt]

As for BB Mountain, I do not see that film as any type of positive role model because they lived a lie. I suppose it could be seen in the light of the times and as a lesson that times have, for the most part, vastly changed for the better so that Jack and Ennis likely could have been together in this day and age.

I agree this is a primary takeaway lesson from the movie, along with the message of how society's treatment of homosexuality can keep people from living and loving fully and honestly, while ruining lives in the process. I think this still goes on quite a bit today.

In some ways, the movie is a negative portrayal. Beyond living a lie, Ennis humiliated his wife in and out of bed, and almost beat the crap out of her in her own house. Those with open minds will be able to understand the context in which all of this happened (although I have trouble with the near violence scene regardless of context).

[The Tower]

I’m sure there are more than a few people who got a good laugh out of those comments, and I actually had a very different response typed out to you, than this one that I’m posting. I could have easily been cruel and posted it if I wanted to... and, truth be told, a part of me really did want to. But what would it prove? I hope I’m a better person than that.
I have a pretty good idea of what you might have had to say.

Though possibly true and though ya know I loves ya more than my luggage, that comment was below the belt.
Very true. Despite our differences, that comment was over the line and uncalled for- which I am sorry for having said. Brian, I hope you will accept my apology and we can just move on.

Hey man, is everything okay with you? :confused:
Everything is fine, dear. :xoxo:

[estranged4life]

Distributor says theater operators 'reneged on their licensing agreement'

SALT LAKE CITY - A movie theater owned by Utah Jazz owner Larry Miller abruptly changed its screening plans and decided not to show the film "Brokeback Mountain."

The film, an R-rated Western gay romance story, was supposed to open Friday at the Megaplex at Jordan Commons in Sandy, a suburb of Salt Lake City. Instead it was pulled from the schedule.

A message posted at the ticket window read: "There has been a change in booking and we will not be showing 'Brokeback Mountain.' We apologize for any inconvenience."

Cal Gunderson, manager of the Jordan Commons Megaplex, declined to comment.

The film, starring Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal, is about two cowboys who discover feelings for one another. The two eventually marry women but rekindle their relationship over the years.

The movie's distributor, Focus Features, said that hours before opening, the theater management "reneged on their licensing agreement," and refused to open the film.

Gayle Ruzicka, president of the conservative Utah Eagle Forum, said not showing the film set an example for the people of Utah.

"I just think (pulling the show) tells the young people especially that maybe there is something wrong with this show," she said.

Mike Thompson, executive director of the gay rights advocacy group Equality Utah, called it disappointing.

"It's just a shame that such a beautiful and award-winning film with so much buzz about it is not being made available to a broad Utah audience because of personal bias," he said.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[strandinthewind]

. . . Very true. Despite our differences, that comment was over the line and uncalled for- which I am sorry for having said. Brian, I hope you will accept my apology and we can just move on . . . .

I still get to spank you :xoxo: :xoxo: :angel:

[strandinthewind]

. . . think this still goes on quite a bit today . . . .

I do too. However, I think the 30 and youngers are unwilling to take it as much as the 30+'s. When I was in Vegas in May and in August, I saw young guys holding hands while walking down the street, which just amazed me and actually made me a little weepy. Granted, Vegas is not Wyoming, but it still represents a huge difference from say 15 years ago.

All in all, I hope this movie shames bigoted and controlling people everywhere into adopting a live and let live philosophy, even if it is just one of those people.

[DavidMn]

I do too. However, I think the 30 and youngers are unwilling to take it as much as the 30+'s. When I was in Vegas in May and in August, I saw young guys holding hands while walking down the street, which just amazed me and actually made me a little weepy. Granted, Vegas is not Wyoming, but it still represents a huge difference from say 15 years ago.

All in all, I hope this movie shames bigoted and controlling people everywhere into adopting a live and let live philosophy, even if it is just one of those people.I was very happy when Derek and I were in Hawaii last year. We were able to hold hands everywhere we went. That was a good feeling.:)

[DavidMn]

Distributor says theater operators 'reneged on their licensing agreement'

SALT LAKE CITY - A movie theater owned by Utah Jazz owner Larry Miller abruptly changed its screening plans and decided not to show the film "Brokeback Mountain."

The film, an R-rated Western gay romance story, was supposed to open Friday at the Megaplex at Jordan Commons in Sandy, a suburb of Salt Lake City. Instead it was pulled from the schedule.

A message posted at the ticket window read: "There has been a change in booking and we will not be showing 'Brokeback Mountain.' We apologize for any inconvenience."

Cal Gunderson, manager of the Jordan Commons Megaplex, declined to comment.

The film, starring Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal, is about two cowboys who discover feelings for one another. The two eventually marry women but rekindle their relationship over the years.

The movie's distributor, Focus Features, said that hours before opening, the theater management "reneged on their licensing agreement," and refused to open the film.

Gayle Ruzicka, president of the conservative Utah Eagle Forum, said not showing the film set an example for the people of Utah.

"I just think (pulling the show) tells the young people especially that maybe there is something wrong with this show," she said.

Mike Thompson, executive director of the gay rights advocacy group Equality Utah, called it disappointing.

"It's just a shame that such a beautiful and award-winning film with so much buzz about it is not being made available to a broad Utah audience because of personal bias," he said.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.The only surprise to me is that they even agreed to show it in the first place in Salt Lake City..:laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Despite our differences, that comment was over the line and uncalled for- which I am sorry for having said. Brian, I hope you will accept my apology and we can just move on.To be honest, I was surprised by the level of vitriol in your response. It seemed rather disproportionate to what I had said... which wasn't intended as an indictment of anyone here, and I wasn't referring to anyone here as a "bitter old queen" or "used-up former club-kid." I was saying that we are examples of making your own way and doing your own thing, in the face of all of the labeling and pigeon-holing that gay men face, and I was trying to think of a possible way to change the things sparky was describing (young gay men having unprotected sex, becoming addicted to meth, etc.).
So I do think it's important to try to be good examples for the younger guys. Maybe that's my "older brother syndrome"... since I was always told, "your little brother looks up to you, so you better be a good example for him."

But I guess in my desire to word my posts as intelligently as I can manage (which requires some work, lemme tell ya!), I end up coming off pompous and insincere... which is the exact opposite of my intentions. That's something I should work on.

I gladly accept your apology and I'm happy to put this behind us. :)

[sparky]

I agree this is a primary takeaway lesson from the movie, along with the message of how society's treatment of homosexuality can keep people from living and loving fully and honestly, while ruining lives in the process. I think this still goes on quite a bit today.

Boy does it.

In some ways, the movie is a negative portrayal. Beyond living a lie, Ennis humiliated his wife in and out of bed, and almost beat the crap out of her in her own house. Those with open minds will be able to understand the context in which all of this happened (although I have trouble with the near violence scene regardless of context).

Though I am not a big fan of violence, I did not think the movie was a negative portrayal of the main characters. For one, this movie is based almost solely on source material. The main characters are dirt poor, uneducated men of the desolate West in the middle twentieth century. They are neither right nor wrong. They simply are. The short story is even used as a template for the bulk of the script. Scene descriptions use direct quotes and so does the dialogue. And the story was written by someone who many consider be one the finest living writers, Annie Proulx, and adapted for the screen by someone with a similar reputation, Larry McMurtry. So, the film makers had no political agenda, and for my money, the story doesn't exist for the characters to be judged.

I do not see that film as any type of positive role model because they lived a lie.

I am not so sure how I feel about all of this role model business being applied to the film. I just don't think that is what this movie is about or what it was for. If one must take away real lessons from a piece of art, this one offers many.

First off - don't lie about your identity or what you need. Granted, their lie was situational, and this is a period piece, but tell that to all the people still lying today. There are a staggering number of them. Also, we need to think about what it is we need, and who we are. It is not a new idea that the unexamined life is not worth living, but one of these characters in particular did not do this at all. He was not able to, for many reasons. If he had, I guess we wouldn't have the tragedy or what I consider to be probably the greatest love story I have ever seen committed to film.

These lessons lead up to the corker - If you are lucky enough to find love, you better grab it and hold on to it for dear life. And I am not talking about pedestrian crushes. I am talking the real deal. The kind that makes your hands sweat. The kind that leaves you, when you merely see the person, slightly breathless, with your pulse racing. Their touch sends a jolt of electricity through you so powerful that it makes you wonder if you were ever really even alive before you met them. Holding them makes your heart beat so hard that it threatens to bust out of your chest. When you are with them, you know that you have finally found a place you can call home. This is not something to take lightly, or walk away from.

There is a scene in the movie, after Jack and Ennis have a nasty fight, when they spew out everything they have been holding back for twenty years. It is crushing. However, they seem to come back to a kind of peace before parting ways. It is at that moment that Jack relives a moment from their first summer together. He is standing and nearly asleep by the fire. Ennis comes up behind him, embraces him, and begins to sing lightly in his ear. It is a song Ennis has pulled up in his mind from the past, one his mother used to sing to him when he was little. Jack drifts back to the present and this is the stage direction from the script :

"WE ARE BACK TO THE PRESENT as JACK, much older now, watches the pickup truck, and his other half, fade away into the distance, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives."

Of this scene, I read a review which said, and I paraphrase, that sometimes we experience a flash of love so bright that it is able to illuminate a lifetime of loneliness.

I find that I cannot judge these characters or their actions. I do not for a second believe that was the intent of the author or the filmmakers. I am quite frankly so moved by the film, and this scene in particular, that it crystallizes in stark relief for me one message and one message only. If you are lucky enough, you may one day experience that fleeting flash of love. One that is so bright it can illuminate what seems like, or could be, a lifetime of loneliness. If you do, you must catch it, you must save it, and you must protect it with every ounce of strength you have, for you may never have the chance again.

[dissention]

I am not so sure how I feel about all of this role model business being applied to the film. I just don't think that is what this movie is about or what it was for. If one must take away real lessons from a piece of art, this one offers many.

I don't quite understand the assertion that this movie should be looked at as some sort of "role model" to begin with. It's about a certain period in time and involves characters who live their lives based on how those times dictated they should. This wasn't a movie that was made with the intent of gay people watching it and being influenced into living "lies" about who they are and who they might love. If anything, the movie demonstrates just how destructive and self-defeating doing so can be.

First off - don't lie about your identity or what you need. Granted, their lie was situational, and this is a period piece, but tell that to all the people still lying today. There are a staggering number of them. Also, we need to think about what it is we need, and who we are. It is not a new idea that the unexamined life is not worth living, but one of these characters in particular did not do this at all. He was not able to, for many reasons. If he had, I guess we wouldn't have the tragedy or what I consider to be probably the greatest love story I have ever seen committed to film.

These lessons lead up to the corker - If you are lucky enough to find love, you better grab it and hold on to it for dear life. And I am not talking about pedestrian crushes. I am talking the real deal. The kind that makes your hands sweat. The kind that leaves you, when you merely see the person, slightly breathless, with your pulse racing. Their touch sends a jolt of electricity through you so powerful that it makes you wonder if you were ever really even alive before you met them. Holding them makes your heart beat so hard that it threatens to bust out of your chest. When you are with them, you know that you have finally found a place you can call home. This is not something to take lightly, or walk away from.

There is a scene in the movie, after Jack and Ennis have a nasty fight, when they spew out everything they have been holding back for twenty years. It is crushing. However, they seem to come back to a kind of peace before parting ways. It is at that moment that Jack relives a moment from their first summer together. He is standing and nearly asleep by the fire. Ennis comes up behind him, embraces him, and begins to sing lightly in his ear. It is a song Ennis has pulled up in his mind from the past, one his mother used to sing to him when he was little. Jack drifts back to the present and this is the stage direction from the script :

"WE ARE BACK TO THE PRESENT as JACK, much older now, watches the pickup truck, and his other half, fade away into the distance, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives."

Of this scene, I read a review which said, and I paraphrase, that sometimes we experience a flash of love so bright that it is able to illuminate a lifetime of loneliness.

I find that I cannot judge these characters or their actions. I do not for a second believe that was the intent of the author or the filmmakers. I am quite frankly so moved by the film, and this scene in particular, that it crystallizes in stark relief for me one message and one message only. If you are lucky enough, you may one day experience that fleeting flash of love. One that is so bright it can illuminate what seems like, or could be, a lifetime of loneliness. If you do, you must catch it, you must save it, and you must protect it with every ounce of strength you have, for you may never have the chance again.

Poetry. You already know I adore you, but damn. That's pretty much what I came away with after seeing it, not "Man, those poor queers lived a lie, what a bad message." It's not about any of that surface stuff as much as it's about love. It demonstrated in the most human way that love is such a powerful thing that it can ruin you one moment and then make your life worth living the next, even after all the **** you may have went through for those brief moments of bliss where nothing else mattered. It made it painfully obvious that once you find a love as powerful as the one you described above, you have to take hold of it or else. You lose, that's it. The movie can even be seen as a cautionary tale about how not grasping onto the love that's in front of you and holding onto it as tightly as possible can wreak havoc on you emotionally for the rest of time.

[markolas]

I certainly don't think these guys were meant to be role models, nor do I think anyone can vilify them for "living a lie." I think one of the main things I got from the movie was that everything isn't as black and white as people like to think it is. They were dealing with the situation the way they had been conditioned to deal with it, by their environment and their upbringing. Like sparky said, they aren't right or wrong.

As far as this "true love" business goes, I'm inclined to think of it as a steaming pile of crap that was made up to sell books and movie tickets. :laugh: I've certainly never experienced it.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

As far as this "true love" business goes, I'm inclined to think of it as a steaming pile of crap that was made up to sell books and movie tickets. :laugh: I've certainly never experienced it.

Believe, miracles can happen...
Just imagine, and believe
Open up your heart...
The journey starts when you believe...

:cool:

:o

:lol:

[markolas]

Believe, miracles can happen...
Just imagine, and believe
Open up your heart...
The journey starts when you believe...

:cool:

:o

:lol:

Okay, I have no idea what that's from, but...

I believed until I realized that no one I've ever been intensely attracted to has ever returned the feeling. Basically, I make them soft. :woohoo:

[SapphireSister]

My review SPOILER








I finally saw it this weekend BY MYSELF since the people I kept making plans with to see it flaked on me. I do prefer to go to the movies with other people because I love to discuss it after but if I really want to see something and can't find anybody I don't have a problem going alone.

My initial thoughts are that is was not the masterpiece that I had hoped, however it was one of the best films I've seen in quite a while. I kept describing this film as "the gay cowboy movie" but after seeing it I'd prefer to describe it as a love story and leave the gay part out. I must comment Ang Lee - his direction was impeccable. The cinematography was also amazing! I need to get out of the city more! Heath Ledger was by far the star. I could feel his loneliness and desperation and I will never look at him the same again. The way he was able to convey emotion without saying a world was spectacular! He seriously deserves an Oscar. Any my God is he sexy! Michelle Williams, also amazing. How did she have the strength to stay with him for all those years after seeing the kiss? Must have been terribly painful. I love the way she finally brought it up to him on Thanksgiving with the fishing pole bit. Brilliant! Wasn't their daughter Jr. beautiful?

For anyone to say they were living a lie is ignorant. Was it not apparent by the end of the movie this lifestyle was completely unacceptable at that particular place and time? In an ideal world they would have bought a ranch and lived as queens happily ever after but the whole point was THE COULDN'T! I'm so glad this movie has gotten so much publicity and I really hope a lot of straight people see it. If it affects one person's point of view on homosexuality it was worth it. Love is love, no matter if you are gay or straight. I live here in Los Angeles where it's totally acceptable to be gay and I surround myself with people who feel the same but I know in other parts of the country it is still frowned upon. I hope it reaches these people. Am I silly to think a movie can change people's minds and question what they have been taught to think is wrong all their lives? I truly hope not.

I usually cry at movies, especially love stories or anything involving death but I did not shed a tear and I can't explain why. I'm really shocked. I would have expected tears but oh well. As I said I wasn't quite as moved as I thought I would be. As sad as it was that they could not fulfill their lives together they are still lucky to have ever had a love like that at all. "It is better to have love and lost than to not have loved at all". Would you say most people ever experience a love that intense?

It did put me in the mood to put on a cowboy hat and go to a western bar and do some 2-stepping. Who's in?

[DavidMn]

My attitude as a gay man is pretty simple. I refuse to try to fit into a set of labels and refuse to try tro be anyone but myself. Security in ones own being is everything.:nod:

[Rickypt]

POSSIBLE SPOILING








These lessons lead up to the corker - If you are lucky enough to find love, you better grab it and hold on to it for dear life. And I am not talking about pedestrian crushes. I am talking the real deal. The kind that makes your hands sweat. The kind that leaves you, when you merely see the person, slightly breathless, with your pulse racing. Their touch sends a jolt of electricity through you so powerful that it makes you wonder if you were ever really even alive before you met them. Holding them makes your heart beat so hard that it threatens to bust out of your chest. When you are with them, you know that you have finally found a place you can call home. This is not something to take lightly, or walk away from.

Beautifully written, sparky. I agree that this is a key lesson of the movie (and one I believe in). What complicates it a bit for me is that maybe that's the same kind of love Alma had for Ennis.

I just have trouble that all the focus is on Ennis and Jack. In the showing I went to, many in audience actually laughed during the scenes where Alma was showing her pain, as if they were "rooting" for E & J at her expense. And everyone I've talked to about this movie (not necessarily on this board) just talks about how badly they feel for the two guys.

I think there was heartbreak all around, and I think Alma suffered the consequences of the era as much as they did.

[BombaySapphire3]

As far as this "true love" business goes, I'm inclined to think of it as a steaming pile of crap that was made up to sell books and movie tickets. :laugh: I've certainly never experienced it.
I've had 2 long term relationships, 6 years + and lived with 2 more guys for about a year each.I've never had the that intense 'flash of love' either but in all but one of the cases (one of the 1 year things)I'm glad I had these relationships .The problem with way too many gay men is that they are waiting around for prince charming to come and never have anything that lasts more than a few months at the most if even that.The reality I think is that prince charming doesn't really exist.That is one thing I'm happy to have learned early on .

[Neal]

I believed until I realized that no one I've ever been intensely attracted to has ever returned the feeling. Basically, I make them soft. :woohoo:

:lol: :lol: :lol:



Join the club... :o

[Neal]

I just have trouble that all the focus is on Ennis and Jack. In the showing I went to, many in audience actually laughed during the scenes where Alma was showing her pain, as if they were "rooting" for E & J at her expense. And everyone I've talked to about this movie (not necessarily on this board) just talks about how badly they feel for the two guys.

I think there was heartbreak all around, and I think Alma suffered the consequences of the era as much as they did.

Thank you! I saw BBM again this weekend, and just like the first time, the entire theatre erupted with laughter when poor Alma came to the door to find Ennis and Jack kissing at the bottom of the stairs. Just like the first time, I was appalled. :(

I fail to see the humor in being humiliated and betrayed by someone you love, and think loves you in return. :shrug:

[Rickypt]

Thank you! I saw BBM again this weekend, and just like the first time, the entire theatre erupted with laughter when poor Alma came to the door to find Ennis and Jack kissing at the bottom of the stairs. Just like the first time, I was appalled. :(

I fail to see the humor in being humiliated and betrayed by someone you love, and think loves you in return. :shrug:

Wow, I thought it was just a freak experience at my particular showing. My friend and I were horrified. :(

[sparky]

Wow, I thought it was just a freak experience at my particular showing. My friend and I were horrified. :(

THIS WHOLE THREAD IS PRETTY MUCH A SPOLIER, FOLKS.


I have read a lot about this happening at a lot of screenings. The most the scene ever elicited at the shows I have watched is a titter and a bunch of gasps. I don't think people are laughing at Alma. The lead up to the scene has been extremely tense. Ennis is chain smoking, drinking, waiting, and when Jack finally shows, it is a crescendo. I think the laughter is more a release of tension on the part of the audience than it is about having no feeling for Alma.

It is no surprise that most of the talk is about the guys, they are the main characters, after all. But Michelle Williams has huge oscar buzz, and has won accolades from tons of critics. The sadness she goes through is enormous. But on the other hand, she does get remarried. Was her love for Ennis trashed and thwarted ? Absolutely. It is side wreckage from main plot line. Which does not lessen it's importance or intensity.
I don't know that Lureen has the same tragic arc. I doubt she relied on Jack so much. Her character had other things to do. But her impeccable phone call scene shows that she is absolutely shattered by the events. In a much different way than anyone else. That performance was masterful.

As far as this "true love" business goes, I'm inclined to think of it as a steaming pile of crap that was made up to sell books and movie tickets. :laugh: I've certainly never experienced it.

You're certainly joking, as is evidenced by the laughy face. Regardless, one of the amazing things about this film is that it showed love that I absolutely believed. It's the first time in my 30 some years of movie viewing that I saw a film in which two men loved each other and I really bought it. As the reviewer in Entertainment Weekly called it "A film in which it feels almost as if love were being invented."

I certainly agree. And with repeated viewings I have only understood more about the characters and the detailed nuances of the performances have
become clearer. The structure is classic as well. The whole thing is put together like a symphony, with repeated phrasing and plot devices, and thundering crescendos to punctuate the ends of acts. Genius.

[The Tower]

I certainly agree. And with repeated viewings I have only understood more about the characters and the detailed nuances of the performances have become clearer. The structure is classic as well. The whole thing is put together like a symphony, with repeated phrasing and plot devices, and thundering crescendos to punctuate the ends of acts. Genius.
How many times have you seen the movie???

In the summer of 1978, I went to my local theater every week day and saw the matinee showing of Grease. I must have seen that thing like 50 times. Are you past ten viewings yet with this one?

[SapphireSister]

THIS WHOLE THREAD IS PRETTY MUCH A SPOLIER, FOLKS.
Which is why I avoided the thread entirely until I saw the movie. I did not want to go in with any pre-conceived notions and I like being surprised. Of course I couldn't help hearing about it in the media.


I have read a lot about this happening at a lot of screenings. The most the scene ever elicited at the shows I have watched is a titter and a bunch of gasps. I don't think people are laughing at Alma. The lead up to the scene has been extremely tense. Ennis is chain smoking, drinking, waiting, and when Jack finally shows, it is a crescendo. I think the laughter is more a release of tension on the part of the audience than it is about having no feeling for Alma.

I'm in Los Angeles and there was a lot of laughing at my screening as well. In fact I myself let out a bit of a yelp. I never for a moment thought that people were laughing at Alma. Rather, it was the shock value. I think it was a bit unrealistic to be honest that they would start making out right there when it was possible she could open the door at any moment. I mean they were in plain view. Couldn't they have gone behind a wall or something? I get the intensity and that they could not wait another moment to tongue wrestle but it was quite risky for 2 men who had been so dead set on hiding it from everything and everyone. It seemed too planned to me and a bit awkward to say the least. I reacted out of sheer awkwardness.

[Moony]

Wow, I thought it was just a freak experience at my particular showing. My friend and I were horrified. :(
The audience reacted the same way when I saw it yesterday! I was like...ha-ha?

However, they also clapped and cheered in the scene where Jack tells his father-in-law off. That was cool.

By the way, I'd say 99.9% of the audience were middle-aged hetero couples. I saw maybe one other gay there. Boo.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

The audience reacted the same way when I saw it yesterday! I was like...ha-ha?

However, they also clapped and cheered in the scene where Jack tells his father-in-law off. That was cool.

By the way, I'd say 99.9% of the audience were middle-aged hetero couples. I saw maybe one other gay there. Boo.

Well I saw it in Raleigh...and we all know how large the gay population is in North Carolina...:rolleyes: The FEW people that were there...were all married couples.

[Moony]

Well I saw it in Raleigh...and we all know how large the gay population is in North Carolina...:rolleyes: The FEW people that were there...were all married couples.
Yeah that's understandable. But I saw it near the Bay Area and was expecting to see some gay support. Anyway, that's not really important I guess. I was just kind of shocked at first.

Something weird about my experience watching the movie...I did not shed a single tear. This was bizzare, because I cry rather easily at movies (I'm such a sap). I was beginning to think something was wrong with me - but after thinking about the film on the drive home, I finally had a nice cry at home :rolleyes: :lol:

Has anyone else had trouble finding the soundtrack? I'm getting pissed off - no place has it.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Yeah that's understandable. But I saw it near the Bay Area and was expecting to see some gay support. Anyway, that's not really important I guess. I was just kind of shocked at first.

Something weird about my experience watching the movie...I did not shed a single tear. This was bizzare, because I cry rather easily at movies (I'm such a sap). I was beginning to think something was wrong with me - but after thinking about the film on the drive home, I finally had a nice cry at home :rolleyes: :lol:

Has anyone else had trouble finding the soundtrack? I'm getting pissed off - no place has it.

I'm cry too...easily, when it comes to movies (I still boohoo like a baby when watching Cold Mountain!!!) But I didn't shed a tear either...hmmmm...maybe when I watch it again...

I haven't seen the soundtrack anywhere either...

[markolas]

You're certainly joking, as is evidenced by the laughy face. Regardless, one of the amazing things about this film is that it showed love that I absolutely believed. It's the first time in my 30 some years of movie viewing that I saw a film in which two men loved each other and I really bought it. As the reviewer in Entertainment Weekly called it "A film in which it feels almost as if love were being invented."

I wasn't talking about the movie. I meant in general. I can believe that they loved each other, it's this "one true love" malarkey that i have trouble with.

[markolas]

It was mostly old people at the showing I went to, and most of the people I've talked to here in Austin who went to see it said the same thing. There was this one man who must've been about 75. I was like "do you people know what this movie is about?" But no one walked out, or made any snide comments or anything. :shrug:

[Rickypt]

I think the laughter is more a release of tension on the part of the audience than it is about having no feeling for Alma.

I can see that, but this wasn't the only scene when people laughed in my showing. They laughed at pretty much every scene where Ennis ignored Alma as he rushed to go to the mountain. Perhaps all of it was releasing tension, but I almost got the sense that people (almost all gay men in my showing) found something campy about the whole thing.

[SapphireSister]

I saw maybe one other gay there. Boo.'

Well looks can be deceiving. If you saw me at the the theater with a male friend you may have assumed we were a couple but I'm gay (and some would say "straight" looking).

[dissention]

Has anyone else had trouble finding the soundtrack? I'm getting pissed off - no place has it.

I didn't have a hard time getting it, but I can assure you it's worth it. The Emmylou song makes me cry sometimes when I listen to it.