Kerry Campaign Keeping Eye on Ohio Cases

[gldstwmn]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041202/ap_on_el_pr/ohio_vote&cid=536&ncid=536

COLUMBUS, Ohio - John Kerry's campaign has joined a lawsuit by third-party presidential candidates seeking a recount in Ohio. A lawyer for the campaign said Thursday the campaign does not question the Democrat's loss but wants any counting to take place statewide.

Kerry's campaign this week joined the suit filed by Green and Libertarian party candidates seeking a recount of the vote in Delaware County. A judge in that county issued a restraining order blocking that request, but the order expired Thursday. A hearing is set in federal court in Columbus on Friday on the recount request.

"The Kerry-Edwards campaign felt it had to intervene," said Daniel Hoffheimer, a Cincinnati lawyer who represents the campaign in Ohio. "We did not want a recount to go forward if it only was 87 (of Ohio's 88) counties."

The two minor parties also have asked for a statewide recount, but a judge ruled that cannot begin until Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell certifies the vote, likely on Monday. The parties say they have raised the $113,600 fee the state requires to conduct the recount.

The Kerry campaign isn't disputing the outcome of President Bush's Nov. 2 victory in Ohio — a 136,000-vote margin, based on unofficial results — but wants to make sure any recount is "done accurately and completely," Hoffheimer said.

Hoffheimer said he knew of no other challenge by the campaign to the national election results. Bush won the national popular vote by about 3 percentage points, but Ohio's 20 electoral votes would have been enough to turn the race for Kerry.

Meanwhile, a lawyer representing a group alleging fraud in the Ohio presidential election put off until at least Friday the filing of a challenge to the results. Cliff Arnebeck, who alleges that votes intended for Kerry were shifted to Bush, said his legal team needed more time to collect and analyze evidence. He said the filing could take place as late as Monday.

In another development, Rep. John Conyers Jr., D-Mich., sent a letter to Blackwell asking for his assistance in a House Judiciary Committee Democratic staff investigation of "election irregularities." That probe would be in addition to one sought by the Congressional Budget Office.

Complaints received by congressional Democrats include disparities in vote totals for Democrats on the same ballot; too few voting machines in urban, Democrat-leaning precincts; and organized campaigns directing voters to the wrong polling place.

A message seeking comment was left for Blackwell spokesman Carlo LoParo.

[amber]

THanks for posting! :wavey:

[dissention]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041202/ap_on_el_pr/ohio_vote&cid=536&ncid=536

COLUMBUS, Ohio - John Kerry's campaign has joined a lawsuit by third-party presidential candidates seeking a recount in Ohio. A lawyer for the campaign said Thursday the campaign does not question the Democrat's loss but wants any counting to take place statewide.

That says it all. If they aren't going to actually invest in this and even publicly state that it's possible that they won Ohio, they should put up and shut up. They had all of our support on November 3rd, but then they sold us out and now want to play a ****ty, ****ty game of Monday Morning Quarterbacking. No thank you.

I sent cash to Bev Harris and Nader because they are the only ones who can do an honorable job of sorting out this mess and I have faith in them. Kerry and his supposed "campaign," the one that disbanded a month ago, can kiss my royal ass.

[strandinthewind]

I think the Kerry team had the best legal team and mathemeticians working for them and they all concluded there was not enough of whatever was going on (good and bad) to surmount W's current and unofficial 136,000 lead. I mean as of now, I have not seen any evidence to prove otherwise :shrug: - no one has shown that any of the things that went on in Iowa (good and bad) can demonstrate Kerry can keep what he has and also pick up at least 136,001 votes in Iowa while W simultaneusly loses ALL of his urrent 136,000 votes and that W gains no additional votes. It is possible some Bush votes inadvertantly went to Kerry when you are dealing with millions of votes :shrug: So, I think Kerry is now perhaps hedging (imagine that :laugh: ) and saying - all counties should be counted - and I TOTALLY agree they should all be counted and any wrongdoers (R, D, I, whatever) should be brought to justice. I also think Kerry and the D's are WELL aware that many of the D faithful are furious with Kerry for conceding before Iowa was recounted, etc., no matter what his experts told him.

For the recod and despite my loss of faith in the system, I would be elated if the numbers show Kerry won Iowa, but as of now, no one has demonstrated that clearly, etc., and the odds are the recount, sadly, will not

I wonder if (and it is a big if) Iowa's recount shows Kerry won - will W do the right thing? I doubt it.

Anyway - analytical food for thought and no offense intended and hopefully none taken :cool:

EDIT - Diss (I read your post after posting) - I totally agree the Kerry campaign was wrong for refusing to call for a recount. All votes should be counted and the R's certainly are going to oppose both that premise and that reality. The D's let all Americans down here IMO.

[sparky]

This is silly. They need to move on. Even IF they found a trunk of 250,000 Kerry votes, it would take a coup d'etat to get Shrub and his Reptiles outta office. Never happening.

[dissention]

This is silly. They need to move on. Even IF they found a trunk of 250,000 Kerry votes, it would take a coup d'etat to get Shrub and his Reptiles outta office. Never happening.

Truer words were never spoken. It's useless at this point. They needed to strike while the iron was hot and the Kerry team purposely waited until it was all quiet and cold before doing one single thing. And they still haven't done jack ****. If he thinks he's going to win in '08, he's got another thing coming.

[dissention]

EDIT - Diss (I read your post after posting) - I totally agree the Kerry campaign was wrong for refusing to call for a recount. All votes should be counted and the R's certainly are going to oppose both that premise and that reality. The D's let all Americans down here IMO.

:nod: Which is exactly why I'm no longer a Democrat. That party isn't fit to lick my lily white ass.

[amber]

This is silly. They need to move on. Even IF they found a trunk of 250,000 Kerry votes, it would take a coup d'etat to get Shrub and his Reptiles outta office. Never happening.
My thing is i really want them to uncover fraud and disgustingness in the Bush Camp. from some of the articles GDW has thoughtfully posted, I'm positive there are some dirty, dirty, dirty things that went on. I want Bush to be outed in a big way for the vile piece of sh** that he and his cronies are.

[gldstwmn]

I think the Kerry team had the best legal team

He did. Unfortunately we later found out that Kerry's lawyers were business lawyers, not constitutional scholars. :distress:
The Kerry Campaign has been widely referred to by a variety of sources as not the brightest bulb in the chandelier when it comes to this issue. Perhaps they are coming around.

[gldstwmn]

My thing is i really want them to uncover fraud and disgustingness in the Bush Camp. from some of the articles GDW has thoughtfully posted, I'm positive there are some dirty, dirty, dirty things that went on. I want Bush to be outed in a big way for the vile piece of sh** that he and his cronies are.

Exactly. I will "move on" when hell freezes over. :)

[amber]

Exactly. I will "move on" when hell freezes over. :)
:) Right. And in fact to me, the bigger point is not if Bush got enough votes to win (of course, i would rather he didn't) but the fact the whole voting process was tampered with in such a way. I don't want to live in that country... :mad:

[gldstwmn]

I totally agree the Kerry campaign was wrong for refusing to call for a recount.

He is calling for a recount. That's what the article is about.

[gldstwmn]

:) Right. And in fact to me, the bigger point is not if Bush got enough votes to win (of course, i would rather he didn't) but the fact the whole voting process was tampered with in such a way. I don't want to live in that country... :mad:

People should be outraged over the lack of voting machines in precincts where the majority of the population is African American and/or poor. Making working people wait on line 8-10 hours to vote is abominable and in it's own way fraudulent.

[dissention]

My thing is i really want them to uncover fraud and disgustingness in the Bush Camp. from some of the articles GDW has thoughtfully posted, I'm positive there are some dirty, dirty, dirty things that went on. I want Bush to be outed in a big way for the vile piece of sh** that he and his cronies are.

I have no doubt that we'll eventually uncover all the vile things this admin. did to steal this election, but the fact remains that at this point, George W. Bush is not going anywhere. It hurts a lot of us to hear that, but it's a fact. If Kerry was a smart man, which he obviously is not, he would have gone after this entire fraud bull**** to begin with. He chose not to and did everything but call us who believed voter fraud happened crazy. He distanced himself from all of it and that is what made me sick. He hung every single person who voted for him out to dry and he doesn't deserve a f*cking thing for doing so. Adding his goddamned name to a list of people and organizations who are suing for a recount doesn't mean **** and it never will. Saying that you aren't disputing the results but that you want to make sure that a recount is done properly is not only cowardly, but disdainful.

He certainly was a patriot at one time, but now he whores with the best of them. F*ck him and the horse he rode in on.

*end-rant* :laugh:

[dissention]

He is calling for a recount. That's what the article is about.

A day late and a dollar short, my dear friend. This is like Tom Brady dropping a football and then asking for a replay to make sure he *really* dropped it three weeks after the game.

I feel just as bad as you do and take solace in the fact that this will all come out at some time, but John Forbes Kerry is a cowardly scumbag. I think it's been proven time and time again that Teresa is the only one in that relationship with a set of balls; he certainly doesn't have one.

[amber]

I have no doubt that we'll eventually uncover all the vile things this admin. did to steal this election, but the fact remains that at this point, George W. Bush is not going anywhere. It hurts a lot of us to hear that, but it's a fact. If Kerry was a smart man, which he obviously is not, he would have gone after this entire fraud bull**** to begin with. He chose not to and did everything but call us who believed voter fraud happened crazy. He distanced himself from all of it and that is what made me sick. He hung every single person who voted for him out to dry and he doesn't deserve a f*cking thing for doing so. Adding his goddamned name to a list of people and organizations who are suing for a recount doesn't mean **** and it never will. Saying that you aren't disputing the results but that you want to make sure that a recount is done properly is not only cowardly, but disdainful.

He certainly was a patriot at one time, but now he whores with the best of them. F*ck him and the horse he rode in on.

<end-rant> :laugh:
okay, whatever. Thanks for the "fact". :)

[dissention]

okay, whatever. Thanks for the "fact". :)

You can be as sarcastic and optimistic as you want to be, but if you actually think that stuff will be uncovered any time soon that would make John Kerry the president and kick Dubya back to his blasted ranch to clear brush, you're in for a rude awakening. The neocons will declare marshal law and gas us all before stepping outside the White House. :laugh:

[amber]

You can be as sarcastic and optimistic as you want to be, but if you actually think that stuff will be uncovered any time soon that would make John Kerry the president and kick Dubya back to his blasted ranch to clear brush, you're in for a rude awakening. The neocons will declare marshal law and gas us all before stepping outside the White House. :laugh:
yep! :wavey:

[dissention]

People should be outraged over the lack of voting machines in precincts where the majority of the population is African American and/or poor. Making working people wait on line 8-10 hours to vote is abominable and in it's own way fraudulent.

:nod:

As is the Republican Party leaving flyers on cars in African-American neighborhoods telling them to show up to the polls on November 3rd to vote.

[strandinthewind]

My thing is i really want them to uncover fraud and disgustingness in the Bush Camp. from some of the articles GDW has thoughtfully posted, I'm positive there are some dirty, dirty, dirty things that went on. I want Bush to be outed in a big way for the vile piece of sh** that he and his cronies are.


See - I think it ALL should be exposed. The D's do not have totally clean hands - there are parts of Manhattan where fraud allegedly oocured - at least that was the rumor. So, I say expose it all R, D, I, etc. It is just wrong - period :mad:

[amber]

See - I think it ALL should be exposed. The D's do not have totally clean hands - there are parts of Manhattan where fraud allegedly oocured - at least that was the rumor. So, I say expose it all R, D, I, etc. It is just wrong - period :mad:
hmmm...I'd be suprised to find a politician with clean hands...

[strandinthewind]

He is calling for a recount. That's what the article is about.


I meant leading the way, three weeks ago, etc. :cool: I think he played it safe and let others bloddy their hands and now that it looks good to do it, he's in :shrug:

AND - let's talk about Florida :eek: Interestingly, I read an article about a review/recount of the votes the Miami Herald did on their own. Did you read that one?

[dissention]

I meant leading the way, three weeks ago, etc. :cool: I think he played it safe and let others bloddy their hands and now that it looks good to do it, he's in :shrug:

:nod: :nod: :nod:

He only jumped on the bandwagon after everyone else did the dirty work. That's scummy, IMO.

[gldstwmn]

I meant leading the way, three weeks ago, etc. :cool: I think he played it safe and let others bloddy their hands and now that it looks good to do it, he's in :shrug:

AND - let's talk about Florida :eek: Interestingly, I read an article about a review/recount of the votes the Miami Herald did on their own. Did you read that one?

Are you talking about this?
http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=9984&fcategory_desc=Top%20Stories%20Ignored%20By%20U.S.%20Media

The Miami Herald did a hand recount of 3 Florida counties. 3 of the 29 counties which have a majority of voters registered as Democrats but voted overwhelmingly for Bush.

Here are the tallies for Union County:

Bush original: 33967 Bush hand count: 3393 (-3)
Kerry original: 1251 Kerry hand count: 1272 (+21)
Net change: Kerry +24

Here are the tallies for Lafayette County:

Bush original: 2460 Bush hand count: 2452 (-8)
Kerry original: 845 Kerry hand count: 848 (+3)
Net change: Kerry +11

It's a bit more complicated for the third county they looked at, Suwannee County, because they only report the totals for a hand count of "almost 60%" of the ballots. Here is the result of their 60% hand count:

Bush 60% hand count: 6140
Kerry 60% hand count: 2984

Which gives us the following tally for Suwannee County:

Bush original: 11153 Extrapolation of Bush 100% hand count: 10549
Kerry original: 4522 Extrapolation of Kerry 100% hand count: 5126
Net change: Kerry +1208

In the original count, 71.2% of the votes cast for Bush or Kerry (n=15675) went to Bush. In the hand count, this drops to 67.3%. That is a significant drop. Let's translate that into numbers. If you take the percentages from the hand count and extrapolate, here's what you get:

Bush = 15675 x .673 = 10549 (loss of 604)
Kerry = 15675 x .327 = 5126 (gain of 604)
Net change: Kerry +1208

A switch of 1208 votes in a county with less than 16K votes cast is obviously huge. Now maybe there's a very large percentage of Bush votes in that remaining 40% that they didn't count, but we can't know that because they didn't count them. Which begs the question...why did they stop counting in Suwannee County when their tabulation of 60% of the ballots deviated so much from the original total? And without actually counting those remaining ballots, how can they possibly report that nothing is amiss when the data they have so far suggests a possible problem?

What I see is a possible gain of 1243 votes for Kerry from three small counties in which only 23627 ballots were cast. That represents about 0.3% of the ballots cast for Bush and Kerry statewide. If Kerry gained votes at the same rate statewide, he picks up nearly 400,000 votes and wins Florida.

Thanks Miami Herald, you just revealed to us in your hand counts that there's a possibility that Kerry won Florida.

[strandinthewind]

That is not the exact article, but YES - and it pisses me off :mad: :cool:

Again, the odds are W would still win because not all counties would carry the same deviation - but at least COUNT them correctly :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

That is not the exact article, but YES - and it pisses me off :mad: :cool:

Again, the odds are W would still win because not all counties would carry the same deviation - but at least COUNT them correctly :shrug:

Here's what happened. The MH counted 3 counties one of which was only 60% counted to begin with and were there from like 7 am - 3 pm and they were charged 35$ and hour to do their recount.

[strandinthewind]

Here's what happened. The MH counted 3 counties one of which was only 60% counted to begin with and were there from like 7 am - 3 pm and they were charged 35$ and hour to do their recount.

Is that $35 or $0.35? Not that it matters because the press is NOTORIOUSLY cheap :laugh:

Again, you would think Florida would want to know what went wrong to prevent it from happening next time - but no :mad:

[dissention]

Again, you would think Florida would want to know what went wrong to prevent it from happening next time - but no :mad:

If Bush won, why would they? :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

If Bush won, why would they? :shrug:

Oh - I know. It just saddens me to no end to realize people really are that bad hearted.

[dissention]

Oh - I know. It just saddens me to no end to realize people really are that bad hearted.

In the words of Bowie: "I'm afraid of Americans." :cool:

[strandinthewind]

In the words of Bowie: "I'm afraid of Americans." :cool:

I submit it is people in general - at least based on my experieneces :shrug:

[dissention]

I submit it is people in general - at least based on my experieneces :shrug:

Unfortunately, not at this moment in time. :cool: Those supposedly three million Americans who voted for W over Kerry are the greatest threat to the world right now.

[gldstwmn]

Is that $35 or $0.35? Not that it matters because the press is NOTORIOUSLY cheap :laugh:

Again, you would think Florida would want to know what went wrong to prevent it from happening next time - but no :mad:

Are you kidding? The Jeb Bush banana republic?

[gldstwmn]

In the words of Bowie: "I'm afraid of Americans." :cool:

No kidding. :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

Senate Judiciary Committee Demands Answers From Blackwell:

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohblackwellltr12204.pdf

[strandinthewind]

This is part of that investigation launched a few weeks ago I think. They better get him in there soon or at least the answers to this, which is totally damning to the state of Iowa :eek:

[gldstwmn]

This is part of that investigation launched a few weeks ago I think. They better get him in there soon or at least the answers to this, which is totally damning to the state of Iowa :eek:

It's dated today. Blackwell is from Ohio. How many drinks have you had?

[strandinthewind]

It's dated today. Blackwell is from Ohio. How many drinks have you had?

None :laugh:

I know it was dated today. But, I was refering to right after the election when it was reported that Congress (the D's I think) called for an investigation and a comitte was formed - and the letter refers to the concurrent House committee :shrug:

Here is an article on this:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/23/election.investigation/

Plus, I remember a few days after the election, some Congress members were calling for it and it was, I think, born then. I was just saying I think this letter is a result of that - or they could have formed a new committee :cool:

[gldstwmn]

None :laugh:

I know it was dated today. But, I was refering to right after the election when it was reported that Congress (the D's I think) called for an investigation and a comitte was formed - and the letter refers to the concurrent House committee :shrug:

Here is an article on this:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/23/election.investigation/



Actually that's the link to the story about the GAO, not the Judiciary Committee. :) :)
The GAO passed on the specific Ohio complaints to the House Judiciary Committee.

[strandinthewind]

Actually that's the link to the story about the GAO, not the Judiciary Committee. :) :)
The GAO passed on the specific Ohio complaints to the House Judiciary Committee.

I know the link refers to the GAO. And that is what I thought. These are related, which is what I was originally asking :cool: I wish I could find the articles on the Congress members calling for the investigation in, I think, the first few days after the election :cool:

[SuzeQuze]

I submit it is people in general - at least based on my experieneces :shrug:

It is people in <i><b>power</b></i>. Power is an intoxicant that it seems most people cannot handle with integrity. However, it is not impossible to do it. Everyone should be outraged by fraud like glddst described and fundamentally by the fact that in our democracy not all votes are counted. WTF is that? You have to count ALL the votes before you have an accurate result, period. COUNT THE VOTES.