Gay Ledgies of the World Unite! [Archive]

The Tower

10-11-2004, 09:32 PM

Well, I've always been toying with the idea of just making a thread for the GLBT community of The Ledge.

Fleetwood Mac really has a power to affect those of us who never really had the same opportunity to experience life as our straight brothers and sisters. Dating, courting, proms- the day to day life that is Rumours is sadly denied to most of us homosexuals. Yes, this IS changing- thank gawd- however, for those of us old fogies :laugh: Fleetwood Mac / Buckingham Nicks really gave us another world to experience passion, love, lust, dreams, goals, desires, unrequited love, betrayal, anger, retribution, loneliness, discovery, reconciliation, forgiveness, and- ultimately- absolute joy.

Granted, I'm pretty sure that most of our straight friends have experienced some of those emotions through FM as much as us. But, jeez- when one is starving to death, a turkey meal with all the fixin's sure as hell tastes a lot better.

Anyways.... I have always loved the fact that I am gay. I feel almost blessed by it. I hope that other Ledgies out there feel the same way. If any of you out there feel like you are out of place or in a different world, believe me- we are here and there is much solace in comraderie and the understanding that "I have been there before, and believe me, it will only get better".

So, if you're gay come over here to my little niteclub- tell some stories, share a bit of fun. Revel in the fact that you are blessed. Of course, all of our straight siblings are most welcome to hang out and partake of the glory that is Gay (or even offer some challenging remarks regarding the glory that is Heterosexual!! :lol: )

:thumbsup:

markolas

10-11-2004, 10:09 PM

Isn't today National Coming Out Day? How appropriate. :)

Just how many of us are there here, anyway?

amber

10-11-2004, 10:19 PM

Dating, courting, proms- the day to day life that is Rumours is sadly denied to most of us homosexuals.
:thumbsup:
Not to be straight in your gay parade, but I was denied this too :laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol: :wavey: ok, i'll leave you sissies alone.... :laugh: I have to go to my baton twirling in STTD class.... :laugh: :wavey: oh, and are you gay boys gonna wanna chat with the sapphic sisters???? ;)

The Tower

10-12-2004, 05:06 PM

Isn't today National Coming Out Day? How appropriate. :)

Just how many of us are there here, anyway?

I had no idea- "Isn't that WEIRD??"

It seems so antiquated these days that people still have to declare their sexual orientation to others. It's kind of sad. I'm such a naive-optimist-idealist-dreamer that I tend to forget that there is still so much discrimination and bigotry out there. I'm lucky because I live in an idyllic gay ghetto.

I'm really surprised at how lavendar The Ledge is- we are legion.

I'm still trying to get my toaster oven by recruiting Dissention. Although, that wouldn't be THAT much of feat considering the dude has the hots for Doug Wilson..... :laugh: :laugh:

The Tower

10-12-2004, 05:08 PM

oh, and are you gay boys gonna wanna chat with the sapphic sisters???? ;)

I do it alllllllllllllllll the time!

Notice how I used the acronym "GLBT". I included all of us.

Whenever you're ready to come over to the dark side, Amber, just let us know. :laugh:

Mageboy25

10-12-2004, 05:24 PM

((Fleetwood Mac really has a power to affect those of us who never really had the same opportunity to experience life as our straight brothers and sisters. ))

BLAAAAAA, WHO GIVES A SH*T!!! I dont!

Thank God I was born gay, I wouldnt want to be straight if you paid me to be. Im sure you typed this out as a joke, but why care what someone else thinks of you.

amber

10-12-2004, 05:31 PM

I do it alllllllllllllllll the time!

Notice how I used the acronym "GLBT". I included all of us.

Whenever you're ready to come over to the dark side, Amber, just let us know. :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: But I already am a gay man, i'm telling you - an athletic, sporty, gay man!!

amber

10-12-2004, 05:49 PM

By the way, quit trying to recruit Diss. Ain't enough straight guys around here already!!! :laugh: :laugh:

ontheEdgeof17

10-12-2004, 05:54 PM

Signing in as a homo :wavey:

-Curt

GateandGarden

10-12-2004, 06:01 PM

Anyways.... I have always loved the fact that I am gay. I feel almost blessed by it. I think it's absolutely wonderful that you can say that because I am so far from being there. Maybe one day I can feel that great about being gay.

Hillary

amber

10-12-2004, 06:03 PM

The Tower

10-12-2004, 06:04 PM

Im sure you typed this out as a joke, but why care what someone else thinks of you.

I don't care what anyone thinks of me- I thought I was pretty clear on that. Your quote was a little out of context, so maybe you missed my point.

GateandGarden

10-12-2004, 06:05 PM

I don't set out to be picky, but I get pissed off when I see reverse double standards. If I switched that sentence around you'd be fire bombing my house. Like when women blatantly mock men. Or one of the black girls at my school who'd always make jokes about white people and everyone would laugh as if it were so cute. What the f*ck?I have to say that I agree with you there. I think dissing another sexual orientation to try to cancel out the discrimination one experiences is counter-productive and has a tendency to perpetuate the negative feelings people of different sexual orientations have for each other. But, I can understand the comment if it was made entirely as a joke.

Hillary

amber

10-12-2004, 06:05 PM

I think it's absolutely wonderful that you can say that because I am so far from being there. Maybe one day I can feel that great about being gay.

Hillary
Maybe you should get your booty outta Louisiana!! :) Where i am, i feel weird NOT being gay :laugh: :laugh: (not really, but kinda...) Come to the giant women's softball team that is berkeley.... :laugh: (again, i'm kidding)

The Tower

10-12-2004, 06:06 PM

By the way, quit trying to recruit Diss. Ain't enough straight guys around here already!!! :laugh: :laugh:

No one needs to try, honey- he's basically a Friend of Dorothy anyways.

( :xoxo: to Dissention) :laugh: :laugh:

The Tower

10-12-2004, 06:07 PM

Signing in as a homo :wavey:

-Curt

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :blob1: :blob1:

GateandGarden

10-12-2004, 06:10 PM

Since this is a whole gay thread (which is a great thing), I have a question for all of you gays out there. Do you often have people say things to you like, "Oh, I really support gay rights. I mean, I have lots of gay friends." To me, that's like saying, "I have lots of black friends." Besides, I'm pretty sure everyone has gay friends or acquaintances at this point. It seems that when people make a point of saying things like that, they're implying that there really is a major difference between us. They could say, "I really support gay rights because everyone should be treated equally."

Of course, I realize that we (gays) have a tendency to set ourselves apart from the rest of society in many ways. (Take parades, bars, clubs, etc., for example). But maybe all of this is inevitable, until we do have equality. I find that it's an endless debate. Many say that Black History Month is unnecessary and harmful even because it sets blacks apart from whites, when that is what we intended not to do. But in the U.S., many wouldn't learn about black history any other way, and until that changes, I suppose we do need Black History Month.

Is this resonating with anyone? I know it's some meandering, but I think it's all related. :shrug:

Hillary

GateandGarden

10-12-2004, 06:11 PM

Maybe you should get your booty outta Louisiana!! :) Where i am, i feel weird NOT being gay :laugh: :laugh: (not really, but kinda...) Come to the giant women's softball team that is berkeley.... :laugh: (again, i'm kidding)I bet I would love just to visit for awhile! That would be such a different world. I'm usually such an extreme outcast.

Hillary

amber

10-12-2004, 06:14 PM

No one needs to try, honey- he's basically a Friend of Dorothy anyways.

( :xoxo: to Dissention) :laugh: :laugh:
Just cause of that Doug guy? I don't think so. Stevie, Isabelle Adjani, and Parker Posey are on my *list*, too, but i'm not really a friend of...uh...Martina? But much luck to you. And shouldn't we be calling you Friends of Stevie here? :) :laugh:

The Tower

10-12-2004, 06:23 PM

I think it's absolutely wonderful that you can say that because I am so far from being there. Maybe one day I can feel that great about being gay.

Well, then let me help ya out with some things that might make you feel better!

1) If you want to, you will get to have children when you decide you want and when you are ready to take care of them emotionally and financially.

2) As a woman, you are already familiar with the ins and outs of a woman's body- therefore, you are primed and ready to be able to please your partner without all that guesswork.

3) Disposable income!

4) The government has no control over your relationships- since there is no burden of having to worry about whether or not be married, your relationship will always be based on whether or not you are in love and the your desire to be together, rather than having to worry about legal entanglements.

5) You can't get drafted!

6) No birth control!

7) You don't have to concern yourself with parents pressuring you to have a child.

8) Fabulous culture with a world full of friends to make.

I could go on and on and on......

amber

10-12-2004, 06:24 PM

I bet I would love just to visit for awhile! That would be such a different world. I'm usually such an extreme outcast.

Hillary
Really? Why would you be an outcast? You mean when you walk around with your girlfriend? I don't get it... :confused:
And to your other point, obviously i see what you mean, but perhaps these people are really trying to sort of comfort you the best way they can think of, you know, let you know they are not judging you. And maybe they are doing it in that less-than-perfect way because they know there is so much prejudice. At least i hope that's what it is. It's kinda lame, yeah, but hopefully at least these people have good intentions.
You should come here...there's lotsa cuties. And I know for sure the gay bar up the street from my house is really fun, and that's just one...you should wait till your 21.... :p

amber

10-12-2004, 06:28 PM

I could go on and on and on......
lemme add another one: Boys are dumb :laugh: :laugh: :p
Amber

The Tower

10-12-2004, 06:30 PM

Is this resonating with anyone? I know it's some meandering, but I think it's all related.

I think celebrating diversity is a good thing. I think the reason why there isn't a "Straight Pride Parade" is because it's unnecessary- almost any parade could qualify for that. All you have to do is turn on the tee-vee or walk outside to experience the straight world- it's plastered everywhere for all to see.

If your straight friends really do care, I wouldn't consider their comments condescending. A born again christian that I work with refers to my partner as my "friend" as in "Hey, what are you and your friend doing this weekend?" That word in that context is like nails on a chalkboard to me, but I know her heart's in the right place and that she's trying to be nice, so it's alright.

The Tower

10-12-2004, 06:41 PM

lemme add another one: Boys are dumb :laugh: :laugh: :p
Amber

See Amber, you're one step closer to having a mullet, moving in with a girl you met after one or two dates (she just happens to be your exes ex) and rockin' out to the Indigo Girls at the Michigan Womyn's Festival!!! ;) :laugh: :laugh:

amber

10-12-2004, 06:44 PM

See Amber, you're one step closer to having a mullet, moving in with a girl you met after one or two dates (she just happens to be your exes ex) and rockin' out to the Indigo Girls at the Michigan Womyn's Festival!!! ;) :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh:
ok, but who's gonna like me with a mullet? :laugh: :laugh: See, i'm still very vain, so i'm still a gay man... :D Wow, watch the stereotypes fly!!! :xoxo:
AMber

amber

10-12-2004, 06:53 PM

Meh, I'm just angsty. I have more gay friends than straight ones (I did film at university, there were about 3 of us straight students) so if I'm in a group it's usually entirely gay people and I end up almost getting **** for being straight. I also somehow end up being the representative for all straight people and if feels like I'm copping the blame for others' acts of discrimination. Obviously I'm not homophobic, far from it, as my friends are gay (or maybe I'm a homophobic combined with a masochist.....no I don't think so). However I'm also scared to say this kind of thing for fear of being tsked at, getting condescending glares and being tied to a pole and having tomotoes lobbed at me. Obviously saying it on a message board is different, I have no limitations.

Curtis, are you height challenged?
You are pretty angsty...At least you penetrated their "inner circle" :laugh: How can you be the representative for all straight people if your hanging out with a bunch of gay people all the time? :D :laugh: Put on your see through tube dress and go get a boyfriend.... :D Then you'll really have something to be angsty about(kidding)

ontheEdgeof17

10-12-2004, 06:58 PM

Curtis, are you height challenged?

Yes. Yes, I am. :p

...nah.....just the effect I was going for.

-Curt

Johnny Stew

10-12-2004, 10:55 PM

Uhm, well I guess it's pretty anti-climatic for me to say I'm gay (what?! when?!! ;) ), but I figured I'd chime-in too. :)

Hillary, don't worry... a lot of us go through periods of self-doubt, confusion, etc. And, unfortunately, not everyone gets to a place of self-pride. But it is possible to come from crippling self-doubt to being comfortable in your own skin.

Trust me, about 6-7 years ago, or so, I was NOT "proud to be gay." It was something I struggled with for a long time. I denied my sexual orientation to myself and anyone who would listen.

And I totally relate to what the Tower said about expriencing life and love through Mac/Stevie songs when I was a teenager. That music was my only outlet... I wasn't yet able to express myself in my own words, so I expressed myself through Stevie's.

I'm not the first person to say this, so I can't take credit... but being gay ain't for sissies. I wouldn't have chosen to be gay (I scoff at anyone who calls homosexuality a "lifestyle choice"), but I'm glad to now be able to say that I'm happy with who I am and I'm happy to be gay.
It adds a certain amount of complications and difficulties to one's life, but we all have our crosses to bear, so to speak.

I find myself in an odd position, because, being gay, I inherently don't fit in entirely with straight people... but I also don't fit in entirely with the so-called gay community either. I'm not the "ruggedly macho," sports-loving, outdoor-living type, but I'm not the more flamboyant type either.
I've been told by well-meaning friends that I need to wear my hair in "gay styles," or that I need to "dress more gay," etc. I've also been told on many occasion that I need to "play the game" if I want to find someone.
Maybe I'm stubborn, but I prefer to play by my own rules, and stay true to myself.

People want to pigeon-hole you... even other gay people. But, as a wise man once said, "it's important to remember that no one falls into a simple set of labels."

So, Hillary, my best advice to you, would be to stay true to yourself. Eventually you'll feel good about yourself in general, and not just about being gay. Sexual orientation is just one VERY small part of who we are (or at least it should be).

Nixxxed

10-12-2004, 11:02 PM

Queer here! :p

I think things are definitely getting better. When I was a twirling closeted gay adolescent, I never thought there would be gay proms, gay weddings, gay people all over TV, or vocal gay political groups and leaders.

Thank God today's gay youth are growing up in a world where they see themselves better reflected in society, even if it is somewhat in a harsh light at times. It just makes them stronger, in the end, and that's what matters.

Our next task is to truly unite and pool our resources and power, and we're home free. It won't be easy, and it won't be quick, but it will happen. Who knows -- maybe the thread you're reading right now could create the spark that changes the world! :blob2:

Johnny Stew

10-12-2004, 11:11 PM

I think things are definitely getting better. When I was a twirling closeted gay adolescent, I never thought there would be gay proms, gay weddings, gay people all over TV, or vocal gay political groups and leaders.

Oh, man, I know! I'm in awe when I hear about openly gay high school students, and same-gender couples going to senior prom together, etc.
I could never have imagined that when I was in school. Being closeted seemed like the only way one could get through high school in, roughly, one piece.

I think anytime a minority group makes in-roads, there's bound to be a level of backlash... people hold onto old ways of acting and thinking, with extreme tenacity... but the progress we're making can't be taken away from us. We've achieved too much to allow ourselves to be shoved back into the dark reaches of the proverbial closet.
But the struggles aren't over, and we still have a long way to go.

Someday ALL in the Gay/Lesbian community will feel comfortable with being themselves, and won't have to worry about the violence and prejudice that we're still often faced with today.

"Let there be light in this lifetime...."

amber

10-13-2004, 12:23 AM

I'm not the first person to say this, so I can't take credit... but being gay ain't for sissies. I wouldn't have chosen to be gay (I scoff at anyone who calls homosexuality a "lifestyle choice"), but I'm glad to now be able to say that I'm happy with who I am and I'm happy to be gay.
It adds a certain amount of complications and difficulties to one's life, but we all have our crosses to bear, so to speak.

That is so weird to me to. Like, what suspension of logic must you employ to think that people "choose" to be gay. And these are often people who are very homophobic. it's like, if you know how people like you(whoever said a-hole is) think about gay people, why would you also think people would choose to have (lame) people feel that way about them??? Seriously, it's a total suspension of logic to me... :confused:
Amber

takenbythesky

10-13-2004, 12:36 AM

amber

10-13-2004, 12:41 AM

Well...I'm straight and signing in.

I agree that Coming Out Day seems antiquated, but then again I live in the San Francisco Bay Area.

I also agree that double standards are incredibly annoying.

And I've been denied all of the passion, intrigue, etc. of "Rumours" as well.

And isn't it grand that the Mac have managed to bring all of us together? Just goes to show how universal their music is. We're trying to get a Gay/Straight Alliance at my school, but unfortunately we're under the San Francisco Archdiocese, so it's impossible to have a Gay Straight Alliance. BUT that doesn't mean we can't have exactly the same thing under a different name...
Wait, does that mean you go to a Catholic school? (by the way, shout out from Oakland, over here on Shattuck Street! :wavey: :thumbsup: I was in the city for school tonight..) Anywhoo, so of course there are still gay people in your school, but they are out? at a catholic school? how does that work? is it fine? do the nuns rap there hands when they act "too gay"? :laugh: (that was a total joke)
Amber

takenbythesky

10-13-2004, 12:49 AM

Wait, does that mean you go to a Catholic school? (by the way, shout out from Oakland, over here on Shattuck Street! :wavey: :thumbsup: I was in the city for school tonight..) Anywhoo, so of course there are still gay people in your school, but they are out? at a catholic school? how does that work? is it fine? do the nuns rap there hands when they act "too gay"? :laugh: (that was a total joke)
Amber

(Shouts out from San Mateo, 22nd Ave :thumbsup:)

Yeah...I go to a Catholic school even though I'm not Catholic. Of course there are gay people at my school. To my knowledge, none of them are out officially out because the homophobia there is so severe. The group I hang around with are theater people, so they have some feminine mannerisms. Some of the teachers make "gay jokes," which is completely inappropriate and annoying, but most are open about it. Even Catholic schools are still sort of intolerant, unfortunately...

amber

10-13-2004, 12:55 AM

(Shouts out from San Mateo, 22nd Ave :thumbsup:)

Yeah...I go to a Catholic school even though I'm not Catholic. Of course there are gay people at my school. To my knowledge, none of them are out officially out because the homophobia there is so severe. The group I hang around with are theater people, so they have some feminine mannerisms. Some of the teachers make "gay jokes," which is completely inappropriate and annoying, but most are open about it. Even Catholic schools are still sort of intolerant, unfortunately...
"Even" Catholic schools? Bwahahahahahaha! Did you see south park, passion of the jews, but the catholic one? Anyways, the Catholic church (italians?) :laugh: practically invented gay...or maybe just molesting young boys, which is totally different. I'm kidding, but anyways, if your teachers are making gay jokes, that's totally wrong, and would never be acceptable in a non-religious school...doesn't anyone object? I suppose not so much, being a catholic school, but do they remember some stuff jesus said about not judging, and accepting everyone, etc??? And how we're all god's creatures? ALL GOD'S CREATURES!!! Dammit!! :D Seriously, how do they reconcile that?
Amber

takenbythesky

10-13-2004, 12:59 AM

"Even" Catholic schools? Bwahahahahahaha! Did you see south park, passion of the jews, but the catholic one? Anyways, the Catholic church (italians?) :laugh: practically invented gay...or maybe just molesting young boys, which is totally different. I'm kidding, but anyways, if your teachers are making gay jokes, that's totally wrong, and would never be acceptable in a non-religious school...doesn't anyone object? I suppose not so much, being a catholic school, but do they remember some stuff jesus said about not judging, and accepting everyone, etc??? And how we're all god's creatures? ALL GOD'S CREATURES!!! Dammit!! :D Seriously, how do they reconcile that?
Amber

It bugs me to death, too, and it must be horrendous for those who are gay. I've spoken out once or twice, as have my friends. To be honest, I just want to GRADUATE from the school.

Josh2003

10-13-2004, 01:05 AM

I am going to be the first gay US Senator. :D

amber

10-13-2004, 01:07 AM

I am going to be the first gay US Senator. :D
Cool! But what about Hillary Clinton? :laugh:

takenbythesky

10-13-2004, 01:07 AM

I am going to be the first gay US Senator. :D

:thumbsup: I'll be rooting for you!

Mageboy25

10-13-2004, 02:53 AM

My previous comments were a joke in a Jay Leno tone :)

estranged4life

10-13-2004, 03:19 AM

thus far for what I have read on this thread...But I'm straight as can be.

The first experience I can ever remember with a lesbian (The first gay person I ever knew) was with a big husky biker-chic that worked with my Mother...She was a very cool person who didnt give a 'flyin' f**k' if people hated her for her sexual orientation, Cause I really doubt anyone would pick a fight with her anyway for fear of getting their come-uptance (She could easily kicked plenty of ass of the so called asshole 'alpha male homo-phobes' who lived in the hatred filled cesspool known as hometown of Muskogee, OK...Btw, F**K 'Okie From Muskogee'!!!!)

Hell, I had people assume in high school I was gay because I didnt have a girlfriend (My great friend Trina & myself just never let anyone know we were inseparable outside of school)...LOL!!! I just didnt go outta my way to date anyone cause dating wasnt even important to me since I refused to participate in the usual 'social asskiss' festival of activities of the other teens.

Brian j.

GypsySorcerer

10-13-2004, 06:52 AM

"Even" Catholic schools? Bwahahahahahaha! Did you see south park, passion of the jews, but the catholic one? Anyways, the Catholic church (italians?) :laugh: practically invented gay...or maybe just molesting young boys, which is totally different. I'm kidding, but anyways, if your teachers are making gay jokes, that's totally wrong, and would never be acceptable in a non-religious school...doesn't anyone object? I suppose not so much, being a catholic school, but do they remember some stuff jesus said about not judging, and accepting everyone, etc??? And how we're all god's creatures? ALL GOD'S CREATURES!!! Dammit!! :D Seriously, how do they reconcile that?
Amber

Yeah, I read "even" too and laughed out loud. Actually, most Catholics I know support gay rights, so even there it is changing. Of course, the Church leaders need to change, too.........

markolas

10-13-2004, 08:18 AM

National Coming Out Day is antiquated? I think a couple of you ought to take a field trip to the town in Louisiana where I grew up. When I was in high school, there was a group of kids who used to brag about going gay bashing. So, I wasn't about to come out. Although, a lot of people suspected anyway.

Am I the only person who gets annoyed with people who came out when they were 12? Yeah, it's great that the atmosphere was such that they were able to do that, but it makes them almost impossible to relate to. I also have a hard time talking to some of my friends about this, because their coming out experiences were so positive. This one guy I know came out to his mom, and then *she* started dating a woman. There's such a thing as being too accepting. :D

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 09:12 AM

Really? Why would you be an outcast? You mean when you walk around with your girlfriend? I don't get it... :confused:
And to your other point, obviously i see what you mean, but perhaps these people are really trying to sort of comfort you the best way they can think of, you know, let you know they are not judging you. And maybe they are doing it in that less-than-perfect way because they know there is so much prejudice. At least i hope that's what it is. It's kinda lame, yeah, but hopefully at least these people have good intentions.
You should come here...there's lotsa cuties. And I know for sure the gay bar up the street from my house is really fun, and that's just one...you should wait till your 21.... :pI was just saying I'm an outcast where I live. Where I go to school, people who are gay and actually out are few and far between. And they are usually very extreme and stereotypical. I really throw people because I'm not extreme and stereotypical but I'm still out and very open about it. And I get lots of dirty looks just for wearing rainbows, and every once in awhile some nasty comments. Here is a place where being gay seems to be considered unusual and immoral by most, and most who are hide it well.

I agree with you about the less-than-perfect ways people support gays. I guess people do the best they can, and it's probably pretty damn good, considering how much homophobia there is where I live. And I'm 22 by the way. :p (Though not much of a drinker. And I get made fun of for that almost as much as I'm ostracized for being a lesbian).

Thanks so much for your words, Johnny and Tower (what is your real name--I feel awfully silly saying "Thanks, The Tower") :laugh: And I really appreciate your list of advantages to being gay. They are funny and true.

Hillary

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 09:14 AM

National Coming Out Day is antiquated? I think a couple of you ought to take a field trip to the town in Louisiana where I grew up. Obviously, I don't know exactly where you're talking about, but I have a good idea of how it is regardless. All I can say is "ditto" a hundred times! :nod:

Hillary

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 09:31 AM

[COLOR=DarkGreen]I was just saying I'm an outcast where I live. Where I go to school, people who are gay and actually out are few and far between. And they are usually very extreme and stereotypical. I really throw people because I'm not extreme and stereotypical but I'm still out and very open about it. And I get lots of dirty looks just for wearing rainbows, and every once in awhile some nasty comments. Here is a place where being gay seems to be considered unusual and immoral by most, and most who are hide it well.

Interesting - this sounds like my hometown...sort of. I don't really know where to start....

Okay - so there are a lot of gay people in my hometown - when I was in high school there were pretty large groups of gay kids at all three high schools - and on the evenings/weekends they'd all come together at a local coffee shop - I hung out with them all - it was a fun time.

Now - I however, hate labels - but for all general purposes I guess I can be considered bisexual. I've had amazing relationships with both men and women...BUT I fit no stereotpye either - and I get SO MUCH **** from the gay community in my hometown (which i just left a few months ago).

There is a large group of stereotypical mean drunk/druggie lesbians who are just awful -(not all - just a specific group in my town) and they've all dated/screwed each other and it's a mess....I don't fit with that group ...everyone else pretty much keeps to themselves....my gay male friends all moved away and now hang out with absolutely NO women at all...haha...

So question - why is it that people who consider themselves "bi" get so much ****...I'm not selfish and actually have not dated a women in more than five years now :eek: I'm not a nympho...I believe in being with one person and one person only etc....however, me and a friend of mine who is also bi have been like pretty much ostracized by some of our gay friends...when we chose to date a man...:shrug: I have also heard people say that bisexuality is bull****....it's a "Stepping stone" - that, I think, is bull**** since I've felt this way my entire life...seriously...

I think I may have stopped making sense a while back lol - so I'm gonna stop typing now...

skcin

10-13-2004, 09:37 AM

I'm not the first person to say this, so I can't take credit... but being gay ain't for sissies. I wouldn't have chosen to be gay (I scoff at anyone who calls homosexuality a "lifestyle choice"), but I'm glad to now be able to say that I'm happy with who I am and I'm happy to be gay.
It adds a certain amount of complications and difficulties to one's life, but we all have our crosses to bear, so to speak.

Don't you just love people that insist it is a choice? On the other hand, they know gay people are different (read:inferior to them,) therefore implying that gays ARE born different but still insisting that they were NOT born different & it's a choice they made later in life?

I've shocked a few ignorant people when debating this issue by asking when they made their choice to be straight - I mean, if everyone's born the same (read:straight,) then wouldn't everyone have to decide if they wanted to "turn" gay or not? When were they given the option - and if they weren't given that option, then I guess gay people were BORN gay, RIGHT?!?! DUH!

Paula

PS - I'm straight :woohoo:

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 09:41 AM

So question - why is it that people who consider themselves "bi" get so much ****...I'm not selfish and actually have not dated a women in more than five years now :eek: I'm not a nympho...I believe in being with one person and one person only etc....however, me and a friend of mine who is also bi have been like pretty much ostracized by some of our gay friends...when we chose to date a man...:shrug: I have also heard people say that bisexuality is bull****....it's a "Stepping stone" - that, I think, is bull**** since I've felt this way my entire life...seriously...I can probably speak for a lot of the people around where I live and say that they may have never met someone who was bi and out and actually a serious person. I've encountered people who say they just like to have sex with both genders and nothing more than that, and that's very hard to take seriously. I think lots of people need to know that it's something real and hopefully that would reduce all of "stepping stone" nonsense. I'm sorry that your gay friends have had negative feelings towards you--we should stick together but sometimes it seems to turn into every man for himself. :distress:

One more thing I wanted to say--to all of you on this thread--I'm about to go face another day of who knows what. It could go without mention of anything gay related, or a friend of mine (who I thought was a good friend) could suddenly inform me that he or she thinks I need some ex-gay therapy, or a virtual stranger could lecture me on sins. I never know. But I feel a lot better about the whole situation knowing about people like all of you. I think minorities need as many allies as possible, and I really appreciate the broad-mindedness on this board. So thank you.

Hillary

skcin

10-13-2004, 10:16 AM

One more thing I wanted to say--to all of you on this thread--I'm about to go face another day of who knows what. It could go without mention of anything gay related, or a friend of mine (who I thought was a good friend) could suddenly inform me that he or she thinks I need some ex-gay therapy, or a virtual stranger could lecture me on sins. I never know. But I feel a lot better about the whole situation knowing about people like all of you. I think minorities need as many allies as possible, and I really appreciate the broad-mindedness on this board. So thank you.

Hillary

You're welcome. :xoxo:

Paula

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 10:39 AM

I can probably speak for a lot of the people around where I live and say that they may have never met someone who was bi and out and actually a serious person. I've encountered people who say they just like to have sex with both genders and nothing more than that, and that's very hard to take seriously. I think lots of people need to know that it's something real and hopefully that would reduce all of "stepping stone" nonsense. I'm sorry that your gay friends have had negative feelings towards you--we should stick together but sometimes it seems to turn into every man for himself. :distress:

Ugh - I hate that as well lol...does that make me a hypocrite? My friends and I always used to complain about "trendy bisexuals" who were out for sex and nothing more....not me AT ALL. I'm pretty old fashioned - to a fault almost- I move super slow in relationships...so that, in my experience, has been way harder for women to accept than men - don't know why....but that's been my experience....

Slowly my friend who were true friends have come around and are realizing that I am who I am - some, however, are okay to my face and I found out that they're talking behind my back :rolleyes:

Get this - one "ex-friend" ran into my mom at a store and actually said to her, "So we saw Deanna with Josh - what's up with that?" And my mom nicely replied, "Well they've been dating for more than two years..." He replied, "Oh - right. We all know she's just in denial though, right?"

My mom was shocked that this guy would actually say that to her.

It pissed me off because these people back home think they know me better than I know myself...(ooh...almost merged into a Stevie song there...;) )

It's been interesting and a long road and there has been a lot to come to terms with - lots of confusion and then finally a realization that really gender is not an issue for me - I have been attracted to both men and women....but again not like all the time..haha...geez...see even I know that bisexuals have a bad rep = that sucks.

Mari

10-13-2004, 11:00 AM

dissention

10-13-2004, 11:02 AM

Don't you just love people that insist it is a choice? On the other hand, they know gay people are different (read:inferior to them,) therefore implying that gays ARE born different but still insisting that they were NOT born different & it's a choice they made later in life?

Don't you just love the fact that the people who put donw gay men and women fail to mention that all of those "homos" come from straight couples? :laugh:

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 11:12 AM

:wavey: Signing in as bi, if I'm welcome here :p

Guess I should only sign half my name, then?

Ma- currently doing the straight thing.

cool thing btw, all my lesbian friends just go, "Oh, so it's a guy this time? Well good for you" :)

*phew* not the only one :laugh:

And that is cool that your friends are like that - mostly the friends I have now are that way...and my last boyfriend was incredibly supportive...even now when we talk and i say I'm interested in someone...he'll ask, "male or female" lol...he's really a sweet guy....

For the most part those who gave me crap are no longer a significant part of my life :)

msLinds

10-13-2004, 11:51 AM

Hello Everyone.I have come out my lurking.To post I am
a and Out and proud Lesbian to. Everyone on the Ledge take good care of yourselves.

Chain Keep Us Together

Its important to remember that nobody
falls into a simple set of labels.

:nod: :] :blob1: :blob2: :wavey: :thumbsup:

ShangriLaTroubl

10-13-2004, 12:09 PM

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 12:18 PM

I've enjoyed reading you guys' gay thread..hope you dont mind me responding....I'm a straight male who loves gay people? "isnt that weird?"

I'm not one who says "oh yeah I EVEN have some gay friends too." I have many gay friends, and thoroughly enjoy gay people more than straight ppl. I think all people should be treated equally, and while I dont claim to understand everything about the gay culture and what you guys go through, I feel I'm 100% more accepting than the average straight male. Being so accepting of gay people has caused many to assume I'm gay myself, and I dont really care...people are just people...I dont care what people do in their bedrooms, just never concerned myself with it..

Why do ppl care what goes on in someone else's love/sex life? I dont choose my friends based on who they are attracted to, I only choose my relationships based on that. Rock on gay ledgies, be proud of yourself. I think this world has come along way, and hopefully it will continue to progress.
I think Melissa Etheridge said it best when she said "our road will always be tough- but all George Bush does is put potholes in the way. John Kerry knows that the subject of same-sex marriage will be resolved within the next decade in the courts, and all he has to do is stay out of the way. I just want a President who will not stand in the way of change, and John Kerry will not."

That's great. I've found (again only in my experience) that it's rare to find a straight male who is totally cool and comfortable being around gay people. My ex-boyfriend was that way - totally secure with himself, knew who he was - so he just liked everyone....the first time I met him actually a gay friend of ours was with our group and was sitting on his lap the whole night lol...

Anyway - I like Melissa Etheridge's quote as well - and I agree...though it's still a while off things will continue to get better...hopefully...baby steps though - I mean come on the Civil Rights Movement and the Women's movement didn't happen over night - people just gotta be patient and keep workign for change...

amber

10-13-2004, 12:20 PM

dissention

10-13-2004, 12:21 PM

No one needs to try, honey- he's basically a Friend of Dorothy anyways.

( :xoxo: to Dissention) :laugh: :laugh:

And I'll go over the rainbow with her if I can get a crack at Doug. ;) I sure do love the ladies, but I'd be willing to forget about them for a night with him. :laugh:

dissention

10-13-2004, 12:28 PM

yeah, I've heard about this a lot. it's really lame, but i don't know why it exists. perhaps gay people feel somehow threatened by "bi" but i'm not exactly sure why. probably some resentment there. I think it's dumb, and most of my friends are bi, (girls) so...although i've definitely heard of less men who are "truly" bi, (though of course there are some) so maybe saying your "bi" is a bit more loaded for gay men...maybe to gay people it seems like fear and denial...even though with you it's not...hmnnnn...
Amber

A lot of gay people feel that bisexuals want to have their cake and eat it, too. Why they see that as a bad thing is beyond me, but some of my gay friends think that bisexuals just go gay to be "cool."

With the exception of my major crush on a certain someone, I consider myself to be as straight as the pope is white. I think there's a bold line between simply having crushes on members of the same sex while still having strong sexual feelings for the opposite sex and having the same intense feelings for the both sexes. People who simply have crushes on members of the same sex are not bisexual, they're normal. But some people just seize on that little crush and call themselves bisexual.

But, as I've always said, any sex is better than none. :xoxo:

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 12:30 PM

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 12:35 PM

A lot of gay people feel that bisexuals want to have their cake and eat it, too. Why they see that as a bad thing is beyond me, but some of my gay friends think that bisexuals just go gay to be "cool."

With the exception of my major crush on a certain someone, I consider myself to be as straight as the pope is white. I think there's a bold line between simply having crushes on members of the same sex while still having strong sexual feelings for the opposite sex and having the same intense feelings for the both sexes. People who simply have crushes on members of the same sex are not bisexual, they're normal. But some people just seize on that little crush and call themselves bisexual.

But, as I've always said, any sex is better than none. :xoxo:

Ugh - I HATE that "have your cake and eat it too" analogy....gay people are always quick to point out that they're born that way...well - I didn't ask to be attracted to both sexes...it was confusing as hell for a long ass time...

In high school I did try to identify soley as lesbian - but I kept getting mad crushes on guys....so I spent several years exploring different options...and lo and behold I've had meaninful and wonderful relationships with members of both sexes....

It just annoys me that people deny bisexuality exists.....that we're "having our cake and eating it too..." *sigh* It's been a long time since I've had any cake...hahaha...

Anyway...still true though that there are people out there who go there just to "be cool" and whatnot...which I guess is what's making it so damn annoying for those of us with these genuine feelings? :shrug:

dissention

10-13-2004, 12:39 PM

Ugh - I HATE that "have your cake and eat it too" analogy....gay people are always quick to point out that they're born that way...well - I didn't ask to be attracted to both sexes...it was confusing as hell for a long ass time...

I agree. What the hell is the point of having cake if you can't f*cking eat it? :laugh:

Mari

10-13-2004, 12:44 PM

takenbythesky

10-13-2004, 01:45 PM

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 01:46 PM

Ugh - I hate that as well lol...does that make me a hypocrite?(In reference to resenting people just being after sex with both genders and nothing more). I don't think you're hypocritical at all for that. I know I'm all the way back on another page, but I just wanted to say that. I can just relate to some extent because some people say it's hypocritical for me to be gay and a virgin who wishes to stay one until marriage. (Fat chance with the laws and all, but, well, it has been my intention). I run into lots of people who think that if you're gay or bi then you must be slutty, or at least not virginal. :mad:

It pissed me off because these people back home think they know me better than I know myself...(ooh...almost merged into a Stevie song there... ) :laugh: I can relate to that. :nod:

Hillary

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 01:51 PM

Jeez...It can difficult enough for a person to come to terms with their own bisexuality. Why make it hell for them by saying that bisexuality doesn't exist or that it is selfish? Being homosexual or bisexual is very difficult in our society, even though America promotes "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness." Shouldn't a person just be able to do what makes themselves happy, providing it doesn't hurt others, without being criticized and judged by others?I wish everyone felt the way you do.

About bisexuality (not that I profess to be some expert), I get the impression that fewer people view it as something real than homosexuality. I hear all the time that bisexuals are "too lazy to decide," but I have to say that I hear similiar things about homosexuality--that it's not real, it's the result of society making people think it's okay, or someone being sexual abused and turned into a homosexual, or the whole thing about your relationship with your parents making you gay, or you really just want to be another gender. (It's ridiculous to confuse homosexuals with transexuals, yet so many do it). And supposedly it can be reversed. If you go to Focus on the Family's website (http://www.focusonthefamily.org), you'll see that they perpetuate all that bull****.

Hillary

takenbythesky

10-13-2004, 01:51 PM

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 01:52 PM

All the more power to you for wanting to stay a virgin until marriage. :thumbsup:Thanks. :) Though I don't know how practical that is for a gay person. :laugh:

Hillary

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 02:27 PM

(In reference to resenting people just being after sex with both genders and nothing more). I don't think you're hypocritical at all for that. I know I'm all the way back on another page, but I just wanted to say that. I can just relate to some extent because some people say it's hypocritical for me to be gay and a virgin who wishes to stay one until marriage. (Fat chance with the laws and all, but, well, it has been my intention). I run into lots of people who think that if you're gay or bi then you must be slutty, or at least not virginal. :mad:

Hillary

Dude! I can totally relate to that...and wow...I seriously thought I was like the only one that felt that way - like I said in an ealier post - I tend to be kind of old fashioned -

But yeah - I think the reason you get the reason you get the "stereotype" of slutty & not virginal because it seems to be almost true!!!

I mean - there are, of course, exceptions...but Jeebus - back home I never did find any women who hadn't been through the ring of lesbians...and I refused to get involved in all that drama - I care too much about my body and heart to just jump from bed to bed....

This past summer I met a woman and we went out once with a "friend" of hers -nice girls but one of them went to the bathroom and while gone her friend was like, "yeah we used to date - we're just friends now but we still sleep together..." well the friend comes out of the bathroom - goes right up to this other dancing lesbian couple...proceeds to hit on the very drunk one - who leaves her girlfriend behind (fuming) and they go off to make out...WTF!?! I HATE that ****...I never saw any of those gals again....I can't deal with that.

So I haven't dated a woman in years...mostly because I couldn't find one who I gelled with who had similar values etc....I refuse to compromise myself...which in turn has resulted in me losing many a relationship lol...

skcin

10-13-2004, 02:31 PM

Thanks. :) Though I don't know how practical that is for a gay person. :laugh:

Hillary

I don't know how practical it is for ANYONE, gay OR straight :lol:

Know that my tongue is planted firmly in my cheek & I have a lot of respect for you deciding to wait.

Paula

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 02:44 PM

Dude! I can totally relate to that...and wow...I seriously thought I was like the only one that felt that way - like I said in an ealier post - I tend to be kind of old fashioned -

But yeah - I think the reason you get the reason you get the "stereotype" of slutty & not virginal because it seems to be almost true!!!

I mean - there are, of course, exceptions...but Jeebus - back home I never did find any women who hadn't been through the ring of lesbians...and I refused to get involved in all that drama - I care too much about my body and heart to just jump from bed to bed....

This past summer I met a woman and we went out once with a "friend" of hers -nice girls but one of them went to the bathroom and while gone her friend was like, "yeah we used to date - we're just friends now but we still sleep together..." well the friend comes out of the bathroom - goes right up to this other dancing lesbian couple...proceeds to hit on the very drunk one - who leaves her girlfriend behind (fuming) and they go off to make out...WTF!?! I HATE that ****...I never saw any of those gals again....I can't deal with that.

So I haven't dated a woman in years...mostly because I couldn't find one who I gelled with who had similar values etc....I refuse to compromise myself...which in turn has resulted in me losing many a relationship lol...Those lesbians really would've turned me off, too! I cannot deal with that either. The funny thing is that the majority of the lesbians I know personally (okay, it's not that many, but oh well) are monogamous. When I talk to them, I find that we have similar values (though no one I know seems to be clinging to the whole no sex before marriage thing and I can't blame them). But when I get on the Internet or read a gay/lesbian magazine, I find that polyamory is this huge part of the community, and I cannot relate to that on any level. I also can't relate to a lesbian couple saying that they love each other and are devoted to each other but occasionally they go sleep with men just for the sexual pleasure. All of that is so foreign to me.

Hillary

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 02:45 PM

I don't know how practical it is for ANYONE, gay OR straight :lol:

Know that my tongue is planted firmly in my cheek & I have a lot of respect for you deciding to wait.

PaulaThanks Paula. :)

Hillary

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 02:50 PM

Those lesbians really would've turned me off, too! I cannot deal with that either. The funny thing is that the majority of the lesbians I know personally (okay, it's not that many, but oh well) are monogamous. When I talk to them, I find that we have similar values (though no one I know seems to be clinging to the whole no sex before marriage thing and I can't blame them). But when I get on the Internet or read a gay/lesbian magazine, I find that polyamory is this huge part of the community, and I cannot relate to that on any level. I also can't relate to a lesbian couple saying that they love each other and are devoted to each other but occasionally they go sleep with men just for the sexual pleasure. All of that is so foreign to me.

Hillary

:nod: :nod: I don't get the polyamorous culture of the whole thing either.

I once had a horrid experience with a "trendy bi girl" - she claimed to be bi - but totally wasn't...the "relationship" went down hill super fast...one night she broke a date with me - the next day she was covered in hickies...turned out she went to hook up with some guy...her rationale was that since she was bi - she had to have both....um NO! See..that's what's giving bi people a bad rap :mad:

But yeah - when I'm really into someone I honestly could care less about anyone else...for the two and a half years I was with my bf we were totally monogamous and happy....

I do have a few lesbian friends who are in committed monogamous relationships...they're amazing people who I really admire...and it helps knowing that there are people like them in the world...

It's great that the lesbians youknow are monogamous - that helps.

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 03:05 PM

I have to say part of me wishes I was gay though, just because guys so hard to understand at times!
(I apologise if I went all shallow there, I am quite shallow really)It's so funny that you should say that because I was thinking earlier today that it would be easier to be attracted to men exclusively because they seem to make sense to me. Women, on the other hand, can be so irrational, melodramatic, and manipulative. I feel like guys come out say what they want or what has pissed them off, whereas women think they have to be sly and crafty, and it's in a very negative way all too often.

I'm just here to perpetuate more stereotypes. :wavey: :laugh:

Hillary

amber

10-13-2004, 03:09 PM

Thanks Paula. :)

Hillary
I'm curious, why ARE you waiting until marriage? :confused: I woulda been sad if i did that, since i've been saying since i was 7 or so that i would never get married... :laugh:

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 03:11 PM

It's so funny that you should say that because I was thinking earlier today that it would be easier to be attracted to men exclusively because they seem to make sense to me. Women, on the other hand, can be so irrational, melodramatic, and manipulative. I feel like guys come out say what they want or what has pissed them off, whereas women think they have to be sly and crafty, and it's in a very negative way all too often.

I'm just here to perpetuate more stereotypes. :wavey: :laugh:

Hillary

:nod: :nod: Holy crap -we'd get along man haha...

Women are mean :laugh: me and my other bisexual friend always laugh about our mean women experiences...we've both been put through the ringer by some really scary characters lol...

But men are often times no easier...it's all a big pain in the ass the relationship thing....my ex-bf was difficult to figure out - admittedly not as bad as some of the women I've dated....but yeah...

------

As to TrackaGhost's post...I hate that "They don't look gay!" thing...yes there are people who fit the stereotype...they're not the only gay folks...

Two of my dear (male) gay friends don't fit the stereotype AT ALL...and my sister always says things like, "well I don't get the gay vibe from so and so..." or "I'm not totally convinced he's gay..." Just because they don't fit the stereotype..it annoys the crap outta me...

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 03:16 PM

To tell the truth Hillary I think I'm just a little disillusioned at the moment because I do think women can be, like you say, sly and crafty and most of my very best friends are men.

I feel like I'm over-posting here lol...but oh well...

I'm going through the same thing right now - I was totally screwed over last week by a tight-clothed/fake blonde/ditsy bubbly hoe...haha...not having a love thy fellow woman week :laugh:

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 03:17 PM

I feel like I'm over-posting here lol...but oh well...

I'm going through the same thing right now - I was totally screwed over last week by a tight-clothed/fake blonde/ditsy bubbly hoe...haha...not having a love thy fellow woman week :laugh: :laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

I feel like I'm over-posting too...can I just say "ditto" to the vast majority of the previous comments? :laugh:

Hillary

amber

10-13-2004, 03:24 PM

:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

I feel like I'm over-posting too...can I just say "ditto" to the vast majority of the previous comments? :laugh:

Hillary
Since you already think you're over posting, perhaps you'd answer my previous question of why you want to wait until marriage? :wavey:
oh, and also - Men say what they want, but they won't really hardly ever tell you their real feeling, perhaps cause they don't have any. :laugh: And i feel they are less than skilled sometimes in shading and nuance. But, some women I see are very boring...they're not as funny, they don't like to play outside, and they talk about the things about themselves they are insecure about, which are usually totally meaningless. That's my boys v. girls rant for today.
AMber

dissention

10-13-2004, 03:26 PM

Since you already think you're over posting, perhaps you'd answer my previous question of why you want to wait until marriage? :wavey:

I respect anyone who waits for marriage because they must be enduring some serious torture. :laugh:

amber

10-13-2004, 03:32 PM

I respect anyone who waits for marriage because they must be enduring some serious torture. :laugh:
Good one, but I seriously want to know why she's waiting for marriage! man, i thought i waited a long time, she's 22!
Amber

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 03:33 PM

Since you already think you're over posting, perhaps you'd answer my previous question of why you want to wait until marriage? :wavey:
You asked me that? I totally missed that. Sorry. I'm one of those aforementioned ditzy women. Well, I was brought up to believe that it's best to wait for marriage, but I don't apply that belief to other people like so many do. I would never tell other people that they had to wait. It pisses me off so much when people do that. But I always felt like I would wait to share that with the person I felt certain I was going to spend the rest of my life with, and that would make it even more meaningful. It's awfully naive, I know, but I've been hoping that it would work out. Obviously, I'll just have to ditch it if they just refuse to legalize gay marriage. If I don't, I'll never have sex. :laugh: For the past couple of years, I've been thinking that I probably will have to bend on that issue, but I won't do it very easily, I'm sure, since I take that kind of intimacy very seriously.

Hillary

amber

10-13-2004, 03:34 PM

I can kinda understand not telling your real feelings though, I absolutely hate talking about personal stuff (as you can tell by this thread ha!) I do love to talk though...
I was mainly talking about a boyfriend or friend, but if you don't talk about personal stuff, then what are you talking about? Instead of saying "I like this and that, and hate this and the other" or "I like the part where..." what would you say? I think when people talk they should make as many jokes as possible. :D
Also, I want Gate and Garden to tell me why she's waiting for marriage... :)

dissention

10-13-2004, 03:35 PM

Good one, but I seriously want to know why she's waiting for marriage! man, i thought i waited a long time, she's 22!
Amber

:laugh: I must be a slut because virginity was a thing of the past when I was 15. :laugh:

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 03:35 PM

I respect anyone who waits for marriage because they must be enduring some serious torture. :laugh:Honestly, I'm not really suffering from it at this point. I guess I'm very weird, but then I already knew that. :shrug:

Hillary

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 03:38 PM

Also, I want Gate and Garden to tell me why she's waiting for marriage... :)Is this really bothering y'all? :laugh: I mean, I was just raised with some conservative Christian values, and I guess some of us hold to that stuff even when it makes no sense to other people. And I think that's cool as long as you're not judging other people. Like I've said, I don't expect other people to wait and can't blame them for not waiting. It's not all that practical.

Hillary

amber

10-13-2004, 03:39 PM

You asked me that? I totally missed that. Sorry. I'm one of those aforementioned ditzy women. Well, I was brought up to believe that it's best to wait for marriage, but I don't apply that belief to other people like so many do. I would never tell other people that they had to wait. It pisses me off so much when people do that. But I always felt like I would wait to share that with the person I felt certain I was going to spend the rest of my life with, and that would make it even more meaningful. It's awfully naive, I know, but I've been hoping that it would work out. Obviously, I'll just have to ditch it if they just refuse to legalize gay marriage. If I don't, I'll never have sex. :laugh: For the past couple of years, I've been thinking that I probably will have to bend on that issue, but I won't do it very easily, I'm sure, since I take that kind of intimacy very seriously.

Hillary
so, i assume you were taught that because of religion - and so now it's a personal philosophy on relationships that you think is a good idea for you...I'm sorry, it just seemed a strange stance for a lesbian to me - because it seemed to have a religious component, yet I thought maybe because of some churches stand on being gay that you might not be religious...thanks for explaining. It's probably a good idea, except for the part that you may be missing a bunch of sex stuff but you won't know cause you'll only have slept with one person. :laugh: :laugh: Just teasing you, girl. I'm glad your doing what feels right for you.
:xoxo:
Amber

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 03:42 PM

so, i assume you were taught that because of religion - and so now it's a personal philosophy on relationships that you think is a good idea for you...I'm sorry, it just seemed a strange stance for a lesbian to me - because it seemed to have a religious component, yet I thought maybe because of some churches stand on being gay that you might not be religious...thanks for explaining. It's probably a good idea, except for the part that you may be missing a bunch of sex stuff but you won't know cause you'll only have slept with one person. :laugh: :laugh: Just teasing you, girl. I'm glad your doing what feels right for you.
:xoxo:
AmberThanks for understanding Amber. I don't mind explaining. I was raised with conservative Christian values but never actually attended church and I'm vehemently opposed to organized religion in general. It's just that my parents honored some of the philosophies.

Hillary

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 03:42 PM

:laugh: I must be a slut because virginity was a thing of the past when I was 15. :laugh:

Holy crap!! 15?

I used to have the wait til marraige thing...however I did bend - I decided that I would wait until I really felt and loved someone...I don't jump into bed within the first couple of weeks of a relationship...it was months before my last bf and I made that step...

And unfortunately women I've dated have heard my views and usually don't stick around too long lol...many heartbreaks...not many people are willing to wait these days it seems...

------

Now - Trackaghost - yeah - I'm not a fan of sly mean women - this chick I had to deal with -she has been annoying the crap outta me since the moment I laid eyes on her (she hangs out in the same group I do) and well last week she really pissed me off....

I was sort of seeing this guy - he was calling my everyday all that -well we went out on Thursday and that chick was there - getting drunk and annoying and hitting on the bar tender - when he gave her no attention she turned her sights on the guy I was with...and well...I just stepped back to see what would happen ( I figured it'd be a good time to observe what kind of character this guy has - he lost the test) haha...after laughing uproariously at every little thing he did - and whoring herself about at him...he chose her - this all happened right in front of me (THAT's what pisses me off -notlosing the guy) I just though that was completely mean and disrespectful and blah...evil slutty girls...at least she could have had the decency to wait til I wasn't around lol....

uh...anyway...

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 03:44 PM

You're right of course but I was talking about friends... Some girls won't stop talking about really personal stuff. Like I say I am shallow.
And I agree laughing is the best therapy ever! More jokes indeed!

I'd also like people to sing more often, even if they're bad, I want everyday to be a real life musical. But maybe that's just me... :laugh:

lol - my sister and I literally used to burst into song and dance in the middle of stores to see what would happen lol....unfortunately no one in the general public joined in....:( so much for us trying to turn life into a musical....

amber

10-13-2004, 03:44 PM

:laugh: I must be a slut because virginity was a thing of the past when I was 15. :laugh:
I think you're what the boys call "lucky" :laugh:

amber

10-13-2004, 03:49 PM

Holy crap!! 15?

I used to have the wait til marraige thing...however I did bend - I decided that I would wait until I really felt and loved someone...I don't jump into bed within the first couple of weeks of a relationship...it was months before my last bf and I made that step...

And unfortunately women I've dated have heard my views and usually don't stick around too long lol...many heartbreaks...not many people are willing to wait these days it seems...

------

Now - Trackaghost - yeah - I'm not a fan of sly mean women - this chick I had to deal with -she has been annoying the crap outta me since the moment I laid eyes on her (she hangs out in the same group I do) and well last week she really pissed me off....

I was sort of seeing this guy - he was calling my everyday all that -well we went out on Thursday and that chick was there - getting drunk and annoying and hitting on the bar tender - when he gave her no attention she turned her sights on the guy I was with...and well...I just stepped back to see what would happen ( I figured it'd be a good time to observe what kind of character this guy has - he lost the test) haha...after laughing uproariously at every little thing he did - and whoring herself about at him...he chose her - this all happened right in front of me (THAT's what pisses me off -notlosing the guy) I just though that was completely mean and disrespectful and blah...evil slutty girls...at least she could have had the decency to wait til I wasn't around lol....

uh...anyway...
Bum out! But did she know you liked him? cause if she didn't, that's not really that bad...
Amber

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 03:50 PM

But what's the reasoning? I don't know much about Christianity (obviously didn't pay much attention at my Christian highschool........) and am still curious as to why one would want to wait? I'm not mocking, I really want to know. Is the hymen some kind of worshipped tissue? It shan't go down for just anyone/thing.

Ok that might have been insulting, I can see that.I guess it's a way of telling the person "you are the most important person in my life and no one else has ever been this important and no one else will ever be this important." But perhaps this just puts too much emphasis on sex. :confused: That's something to consider.

But I don't think hymens are worshipped tissues. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

And I'm no expert on Christianity, trust me. Someone else will have to explain why the Bible stresses that so much. (Doesn't it? I mean, I don't even remember reading anything that touched on that.)

And I'm not insulted. I know y'all are just playing. I'm also not all that uptight about sexual issues.

Hillary

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 03:56 PM

Well, isn't sex thought of as the Original Sin or something like that?
I was brought up Catholic, we feel guilty about everything I tell ya, even the most mundane things.

lol more in common hahah...I always joke about Catholic guilt - ya think jews got guilt...man try on some Catholic guilt...jeebus...

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 03:58 PM

Bum out! But did she know you liked him? cause if she didn't, that's not really that bad...
Amber

Yeah - we showed up together and had been at a previous event together - she totally knew we were...now I don't mean to demonize her and her alone - the guy is a total dick in this situation as well....again - I don't care about being rejected - just about the disrespect of the whole situation...

Also - I'm not all laughy at guys all bubbly like and I don't constantly stroke egos etc...I'm just me...he apparently needed a girl who was a slut and would totally stroke his fragile ego A LOT!

amber

10-13-2004, 04:05 PM

lol more in common hahah...I always joke about Catholic guilt - ya think jews got guilt...man try on some Catholic guilt...jeebus...
I feel sorry for you guys - I was baptized Catholic, but what that meant is that I went to church once a year (maybe) and it was midnight mass and i got to sing Xmas songs.... :laugh: Yep, i think of myself as the "new" traditional catholic. If i was raised with any religion it was native american. my parents didn't get married until i was 15! :woohoo: By the way, i have a friend who will burst into song all the time. She has a good voice, but she sings all R&B style. It annoys the crap outta me, because then, instead of us SHARING a conversation about things we can both talk about, I have now become her audience :mad: I mean, it's ok sometimes (and i love when she bursts into dance) but normally....no. Coincidentally for this thread, she is the girl i slept with :laugh: (damn scorpios!)
Amber

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 04:05 PM

Ok, but why would you hold out and commit to that without really knowing why you're doing that? Without knowing why it's sacred? Am I prying? Oh well you brought it up......Well, I don't know precisely why it's so sacred for Christians, but what I've said before is why it's so sacred to me. (It's in the first part of post #101). I'm never asked that question and I guess that's why it's hard for me to really explain my feelings.

Hillary

dissention

10-13-2004, 04:06 PM

So to have sex before 15 is slutty? I can call myself a whore, infact I let many call me that, but it's different coming from you.

People can have sex whenever they choose to, I pass no judgements.

dissention

10-13-2004, 04:10 PM

Ok, but why would you hold out and commit to that without really knowing why you're doing that? Without knowing why it's sacred? Am I prying? Oh well you brought it up......

Maybe she has a different sense of self-respect than you or I do. Maybe she just doesn't want to drop trou for the first Tom, Dick, or Harry that passes by and wants to wait and do it when she finds the right person. ;)

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 04:11 PM

Are eating and breathing the unoriginal sins?

I really don't understand what the big deal is with sex. In out and then carry on. What's all this sinning business? It's just natural. And why couldn't they just admit that the Messiah's parents had to have had sex? What's so wrong with that? Of course they're probably just covering for the fact that he raped her, but I digress.

Ok, but why would you hold out and commit to that without really knowing why you're doing that? Without knowing why it's sacred? Am I prying? Oh well you brought it up......

Umm...actually the religious story goes that there was no sex - it's called immaculate conception....Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus - so that the Catholic take on it....please don't **** on that view too much - it's part of my belief structure and I'd appreciate it if you could respect that a little bit.

---

My views on sex are not religious - they're about the way I feel about my body and mind...I respect my self and my body and don't want to just throw it around to be used by others - sex for me is about sharing one of the most intimate parts of myself - and like Hillary said it's saying that someone is that important to you or whatever...

It's obviously not your view...but believe it or not some do view sex differently than others

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 04:12 PM

Maybe she has a different sense of self-respect than you or I do. Maybe she just doesn't want to drop trou for the first Tom, Dick, or Harry that passes by and wants to wait and do it when she finds the right person. ;)So teasingly unkind to someone else but so sweet to me. :xoxo: Yet, I feel left out, since you never say unkind things to me, dissention. What's wrong with me?

Hillary

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 04:13 PM

Yep, me too :nod: I've seen this sort of thing loads of times sadly. They deserve each other Deanna.

Yep - they do...

This is something I've grown accustomed to...I'm not all girly girl and I'm smart and super independent...I don't do things that aren't in my character to attract men or women....that's hard for some people to deal with...and I'm often the loser in situations pitting me against other women lol...

amber

10-13-2004, 04:14 PM

Are eating and breathing the unoriginal sins? ...... :lol: :laugh: :laugh: You are so funny right now...

I really don't understand what the big deal is with sex. In out and then carry on. What's all this sinning business? It's just natural. And why couldn't they just admit that the Messiah's parents had to have had sex? What's so wrong with that? Of course they're probably just covering for the fact that he raped her, but I digress.

Ok, but why would you hold out and commit to that without really knowing why you're doing that? Without knowing why it's sacred? Am I prying? Oh well you brought it up......
Things aren't as natural to religious people. Just because every life form that exists does it, they still think humans need special rules and stuff. Ziff we weren't just big ol animals...

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 04:14 PM

You scarlet woman you lol! :xoxo:
I went to a Catholic school and everything! When you're raised that way, even if you lose your faith or stray from the church, the Catholic guilt stays!
Still I haven't let it get in my way too much...

:nod: :nod: ain't it the truth...ain't it the truth...

I can't tell you how many Sunday mornings I get a pang of total guilt because I'm sitting on my ass eating cereal and not at church....

dissention

10-13-2004, 04:18 PM

So teasingly unkind to someone else but so sweet to me. :xoxo: Yet, I feel left out, since you never say unkind things to me, dissention. What's wrong with me?

Hillary

Nothing. But there must be something wrong with me if I haven't lashed my wicked tongue in your general direction yet. :laugh: :xoxo:

amber

10-13-2004, 04:19 PM

People can have sex whenever they choose to, I pass no judgements.
Well, that's not strictly true, for instance i would like to be having sex right now, but i'm not able to... :laugh: :laugh:
AMber

Sugar

10-13-2004, 04:21 PM

Well, that's not strictly true, for instance i would like to be having sex right now, but i'm not able to... :laugh: :laugh:
AMber

Poor thing! When did you break your hands?

dissention

10-13-2004, 04:22 PM

Well f*ck you too.

That time of the month, eh? ;)

dissention

10-13-2004, 04:23 PM

Poor thing! When did you break your hands?

:laugh:

Or run out of batteries.

amber

10-13-2004, 04:25 PM

Umm...actually the religious story goes that there was no sex - it's called immaculate conception....Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus - so that the Catholic take on it....please don't **** on that view too much - it's part of my belief structure and I'd appreciate it if you could respect that a little bit.
So that's a "miracle", right? I mean, i've never heard of anyone or anything else, ever, immaculately conceiving. Sure, single cell lifeforms can asexually reproduce, but that's different. And even though science wasn't that great whenever the first GUY who wrote it WROTE the bible, everyone still believes this. Why can't the bible just be a big story illustrating the concepts of god? Why does it have to be literal? If it's not literal, doesn't it still teach the same lessons, only without the unbelievable stories and dogma? Not attacking you, I swear. I just have questions. But feel free not to answer, most religious people say they accept the literal bible on FAITH and they can't really explain it anyway. which is fine... :wavey:
---

amber

10-13-2004, 04:28 PM

Poor thing! When did you break your hands?
Har. I'm at work (A) and (B) I usually don't mean sex with myself as having sex :D
AMber

dissention

10-13-2004, 04:28 PM

Ah, see you think you can use that against me but what you don't realise is that it is a complete impossibility and therefore entirely invalid. Bom bom. You lose, it's just your despicable self.

Thanks for the compliment, dear. :xoxo:

amber

10-13-2004, 04:29 PM

:laugh:

Or run out of batteries.
oh, thanks for reminding me, i need to get batteries on the way home... :wavey: :xoxo:
AMber

amber

10-13-2004, 04:31 PM

You wouldn't believe how much I relate to that :nod:

As for the church thing, that's so funny. I didn't go to Easter mass this year (I admit I rarely ever go these days) and all I could hear in my head was my mum saying "Jesus died for your sins Sharon, at the very least you could go to church at Easter..." :laugh:
It seems to me god wouldn't care what building you are in, and he's god, does he need people to worship him? Doesn't he just want you to, sort of, act in a godly way? You know, WWJD and all that? Help your fellow man? etc.?

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 04:31 PM

So that's a "miracle", right? I mean, i've never heard of anyone or anything else, ever, immaculately conceiving. Sure, single cell lifeforms can asexually reproduce, but that's different. And even though science wasn't that great whenever the first GUY who wrote it WROTE the bible, everyone still believes this. Why can't the bible just be a big story illustrating the concepts of god? Why does it have to be literal? If it's not literal, doesn't it still teach the same lessons, only without the unbelievable stories and dogma? Not attacking you, I swear. I just have questions. But feel free not to answer, most religious people say they accept the literal bible on FAITH and they can't really explain it anyway. which is fine... :wavey:
---

It is totally about faith - interestingly I am one of the biggest advocates of NOT taking the Bible totally literally and yet I still believe in the virgin birth lol...

Yes I guess it's considered a miracle...as the story goes Mary was at home or something and an angel appeared to her telling her what was up...she was married - she's known as "Mary -ever virgin..."

Ever seen Dogma? That movie KICKS ASS...it makes some really good points..

The thing about my religion is a lot of things are about faith - the whole concept about God is about faith...faith in the unknown - believing in something you've never seen....though many argue they do see things in little ways...I know that oddly my Grandma and I have had some really weird and seemingly unexplainable things happen to us (related to religion).

Umm...I'm not sure I've answered your question at all..you didn't offend at all - I appreciate your questions rather than hostile attacks about how stupid religion is lol...though we're all entitled to our opinions...

Sugar

10-13-2004, 04:32 PM

Har. I'm at work (A) and (B) I usually don't mean sex with myself as having sex :D
AMber

Well if you want to place all these RULES and LIMITATIONS on having sex...

Eh, I was just goin' for the laugh... :D

amber

10-13-2004, 04:33 PM

Well if you want to place all these RULES and LIMITATIONS on having sex...

Eh, I was just goin' for the laugh... :D
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
and your right! so i'm at work! so what?! :laugh:
AMber

amber

10-13-2004, 04:36 PM

No, I agree. It's just a symptom of Catholic guilt that's all.
oh, sorry :D

dissention

10-13-2004, 04:37 PM

Don't touch me.

I wouldn't want to catch anything, after all.

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 04:39 PM

Aha! Your avatar! Buddy Christ no?

:nod: :thumbsup: I LOVE the Buddy Christ - I think it's hilarious -and come on God's gotta have a sense of humor right?

I know what you mean about the Easter thing...I didn't go to church on Easter two years ago lol - I STILL feel bad about it hahah...

Everytime I talk to my grandma she asks about church :rolleyes:

My brother in law's mom in response to a "I'm too busy to make it to church today" replied, "Well - good thing Jesus wasn't too busy to DIE for you...he wasn't too busy to be tortured and crucified..." lol....that Catholic guilt springs eternal...

amber

10-13-2004, 04:40 PM

Don't touch me.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 04:40 PM

I wouldn't want to catch anything, after all.

:laugh: :lol: :lol: I totally wasn't expecting that one--classic!

amber

10-13-2004, 04:41 PM

:
My brother in law's mom in response to a "I'm too busy to make it to church today" replied, "Well - good thing Jesus wasn't too busy to DIE for you...he wasn't too busy to be tortured and crucified..." lol....that Catholic guilt springs eternal...
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Omigod, that's great AND bitchy :lol:

dissention

10-13-2004, 04:41 PM

My brother in law's mom in response to a "I'm too busy to make it to church today" replied, "Well - good thing Jesus wasn't too busy to DIE for you...he wasn't too busy to be tortured and crucified..." lol....that Catholic guilt springs eternal...

Did he really have a choice to be busy doing something else? :laugh:

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 04:42 PM

Did he really have a choice to be busy doing something else? :laugh:

:laugh: Good point there. I think that response, however, would have won my brother-in-law a big fat slap in the face...

dissention

10-13-2004, 04:42 PM

That influenza, it certainly is a thing of shame.

Funny, I was thinking of syph.

Johnny Stew

10-13-2004, 04:47 PM

Thanks. :) Though I don't know how practical (virginity) is for a gay person. :laugh:

This goes into the "More Than You EVER Wanted To Know About Johnny Stew" file... :laugh: ... but there are... *ahem*... certain acts which I have decided to wait to experience.

Not everything, mind you. I'm not 100% innocent, nor am I a prude. It's not that at all. I guess I'm kind of like a Penguin... I mate for life.
I've had total crushes on various guys before, and I've been very sexually attracted to certain guys before, but I understand the different between sex and love. And I prefer sex to have meaning.

(Trying to figure out how much to explain, before I go waaaay into "too much info" territory.) :o

I have a very good sex-drive. Maybe a little too good. And when I'm dating someone, I've had a tendency to wear them out (while still not going "all the way").
But when I'm not dating someone, I have no interest in going out and looking for an outlet for my drive. I simply take a cue from Peter Green, and we'll leave it at that.

Being gay but "waiting," seems to blow a lot of people's minds. Again, they're well-meaning, but they don't quite seem to "get it." And they don't get why I'm not out "getting it."

If I had a dollar for every time well-meaning friends have told me that I'm wasting being "young and attractive" (their words), by not capitalizing on it, I could put a dent in the national debt.

And in the gay community, experience is considered a great asset. The majority of gay men are not looking for someone with limited experience. They don't have the desire or patience to "break someone in."

But I'm not interested in how much experience I have or don't have, and I'm not interested in how many notches there are on my bedpost.
When I find my mate, I'll catch up on anything I may have missed... and then some.

For me it's about self-respect and morality. I don't feel "my way" is the right way, or that it's right for anyone other than myself... I'm just staying true to how I feel, and I'd rather not have a series of one-night stands or casual flings.
By that token, some people (the most extremely religious on this Earth) would think I've done way too much as it is, while other people think I've done far too little.
It's another area in which I'm somewhere in the middle.

And, yeah, I'll admit there are times when I wonder if I've made the right choice, and if I'm dooming myself to singledom... but nothing truly worth having ever comes without being earned.

So, Hillary... and anyone else "waiting," no matter what their age... stay strong and stick to your guns. YOU know what's right for you. No one else does. All the well-meaning advice in the world doesn't mean a thing if it's not the right advice for YOU.

And just know that you're not the only one. :)

dissention

10-13-2004, 04:49 PM

This goes into the "More Than You EVER Wanted To Know About Johnny Stew" file... :laugh: ... but there are... *ahem*... certain acts which I have decided to wait to experience.

Not everything, mind you. I'm not 100% innocent, nor am I a prude. It's not that at all. I guess I'm kind of like a Penguin... I mate for life.
I've had total crushes on various guys before, and I've been very sexually attracted to certain guys before, but I understand the different between sex and love. And I prefer sex to have meaning.

(Trying to figure out how much to explain, before I go waaaay into "too much info" territory.) :o

I have a very good sex-drive. Maybe a little too good. And when I'm dating someone, I've had a tendency to wear them out (while still not going "all the way").
But when I'm not dating someone, I have no interest in going out and looking for an outlet for my drive. I simply take a cue from Peter Green, and we'll leave it at that.

Being gay but "waiting," seems to blow a lot of people's minds. Again, they're well-meaning, but they don't quite seem to "get it." And they don't get why I'm not out "getting it."

If I had a dollar for every time well-meaning friends have told me that I'm wasting being "young and attractive" (their words), by not capitalizing on it, I could put a dent in the national debt.

And in the gay community, experience is considered a great asset. The majority of gay men are not looking for someone with limited experience. They don't have the desire or patience to "break someone in."

But I'm not interested in how much experience I have or don't have, and I'm not interested in how many notches there are on my bedpost.
When I find my mate, I'll catch up on anything I may have missed... and then some.

For me it's about self-respect and morality. I don't feel "my way" is the right way, or that it's right for anyone other than myself... I'm just staying true to how I feel, and I'd rather not have a series of one-night stands or casual flings.
By that token, some people (the most extremely religious on this Earth) would think I've done way too much as it is, while other people think I've done far too little.
It's another area in which I'm somewhere in the middle.

And, yeah, I'll admit there are times when I wonder if I've made the right choice, and if I'm dooming myself to singledom... but nothing truly worth having ever comes without being earned.

So, Hillary... and anyone else "waiting," no matter what their age... stay strong and stick to your guns. YOU know what's right for you. No one else does. All the well-meaning advice in the world doesn't mean a thing if it's not the right advice for YOU.

And just know that you're not the only one. :)

I feel like I need to go to a Sexaholics Anonymous meeting after listening to these stories from y'all. :laugh:

dissention

10-13-2004, 04:55 PM

I wasn't aware that the smilie kiss implied action from beneath. That's what was tickling. It's your own damn fault for heading down there.

Unless I was drugged into engaging in sexual relations with a rather distrubed Australian, I couldn't possibly suffer from such a dirty disease.

Johnny Stew

10-13-2004, 05:05 PM

I feel like I need to go to a Sexaholics Anonymous meeting after listening to these stories from y'all. :laugh:

Yeah, well, you didn't ask me how often I play "Rattlesnake Shake" in a day's time. ;) :o :shocked: :laugh:

estranged4life

10-13-2004, 05:06 PM

:laugh: I must be a slut because virginity was a thing of the past when I was 15. :laugh:

I must be an old strange fart cause I was 20 when the virginity went "buh-bye"...

I can count my serious relationships on 1 hand, So I guess I don't get around much or people know how much of a prick I can be to live with :lol:

Btw, When Deb and I first met her cousin (Who is a complete 'F*cktard') tried to tell me Deb was gay, Sorry but a bad haircut doesnt not make one gay cause if that was true Deb would be leavin' me for another woman (ie-Her current radiation treatment induced hairdo is rather 'Butch', But when yer hair isnt growing back what can ya do??)

Brian j.

Johnny Stew

10-13-2004, 05:08 PM

dissention

10-13-2004, 05:10 PM

Exactly what is it that makes one 'disturbed'?

Your behavior. ;)

estranged4life

10-13-2004, 05:17 PM

You know, WWJD and all that? Help your fellow man? etc.?

As we (Deb and myself) like to say to the marketing term WWJD "He would ask God" or "Put God first"...

Of course he could always throw grenades at Rever-And Jerry "the False Prophet" Falwell...Or would that be just too damned South Park for the religious (And Immoral) right?

Brian "Please vote for me as future Anti-Christ in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, etc..." j.

amber

10-13-2004, 05:19 PM

This goes into the "More Than You EVER Wanted To Know About Johnny Stew" file... :laugh: ... but there are... *ahem*... certain acts which I have decided to wait to experience.

Not everything, mind you. I'm not 100% innocent, nor am I a prude. It's not that at all. I guess I'm kind of like a Penguin... I mate for life.
I've had total crushes on various guys before, and I've been very sexually attracted to certain guys before, but I understand the different between sex and love. And I prefer sex to have meaning.

(Trying to figure out how much to explain, before I go waaaay into "too much info" territory.) :o

I have a very good sex-drive. Maybe a little too good. And when I'm dating someone, I've had a tendency to wear them out (while still not going "all the way").
But when I'm not dating someone, I have no interest in going out and looking for an outlet for my drive. I simply take a cue from Peter Green, and we'll leave it at that.

Being gay but "waiting," seems to blow a lot of people's minds. Again, they're well-meaning, but they don't quite seem to "get it." And they don't get why I'm not out "getting it."

If I had a dollar for every time well-meaning friends have told me that I'm wasting being "young and attractive" (their words), by not capitalizing on it, I could put a dent in the national debt.

And in the gay community, experience is considered a great asset. The majority of gay men are not looking for someone with limited experience. They don't have the desire or patience to "break someone in."

But I'm not interested in how much experience I have or don't have, and I'm not interested in how many notches there are on my bedpost.
When I find my mate, I'll catch up on anything I may have missed... and then some.

For me it's about self-respect and morality. I don't feel "my way" is the right way, or that it's right for anyone other than myself... I'm just staying true to how I feel, and I'd rather not have a series of one-night stands or casual flings.
By that token, some people (the most extremely religious on this Earth) would think I've done way too much as it is, while other people think I've done far too little.
It's another area in which I'm somewhere in the middle.

And, yeah, I'll admit there are times when I wonder if I've made the right choice, and if I'm dooming myself to singledom... but nothing truly worth having ever comes without being earned.

So, Hillary... and anyone else "waiting," no matter what their age... stay strong and stick to your guns. YOU know what's right for you. No one else does. All the well-meaning advice in the world doesn't mean a thing if it's not the right advice for YOU.

And just know that you're not the only one. :)
Yeah, I've just noticed sex is way better with someone you really like, or more importantly, if they really like you :laugh: If it's not that way, I feel kinda...I dunno, awkward and not really free to really express myself...i mean, i've definitely done it, but it's just not very neat (usually).
Amber

amber

10-13-2004, 05:21 PM

Oh, and can we please keep the thread cordial?
What seemed like it could be friendly banter right at first, now seems to be less-than-friendly.

Let's not go there.

Plus, it doesn't look right if the straight people are being the "bitchy queens." ;) (Attempt at levity.)
It seems like Lux and Dissy fight a lot. But they're both funny. but Diss seems more insulting. But Lux is more likely to say "f*** you!" first. I guess they push each other's buttons a bit. I don't usually think Lux is disturbed, but who knows? And sometimes Diss really pisses me off. so. More analysis later... :laugh:

estranged4life

10-13-2004, 05:33 PM

Perhaps a house by the Loch Ness should do it.

be a dream come true for me...Except a castle next to Loch Ness would be more atmospheric for the whole effect (And of course glowing Jimmy Page-like eyes from the "Song Remains The Same" movie would really push the effect over the top!) :nod:

Brian "666...Oh spooky!" j.

Johnny Stew

10-13-2004, 06:20 PM

Sorry Johnny but I really would like to know what is so disturbing. I fail to see anything disturbing in any of my admissions. I also don't take to being told I have no self-respect without being tempted to ask why.

Hi Lux... you're certainly well within your right to ask for an explanation if someone expresses an opinion about you. I don't think anyone would blame you for asking.
I just wanted to make sure the general tone doesn't continue to disintegrate. :)

Hawkeye

10-13-2004, 07:42 PM

For me it's about self-respect and morality. I don't feel "my way" is the right way, or that it's right for anyone other than myself... I'm just staying true to how I feel, and I'd rather not have a series of one-night stands or casual flings.

Ummmm, I don't want to piss you off Johnny (or anyone else here but I guess it'll be hard to avoid), but I find it wierd that you say it's about morality and you're gay, which I don't have anything against but that is pretty immoral (I didn't say wrong, just immoral)

strandinthewind

10-13-2004, 07:48 PM

Ummmm, I don't want to piss you off Johnny (or anyone else here but I guess it'll be hard to avoid), but I find it wierd that you say it's about morality and you're gay, which I don't have anything against but that is pretty immoral (I didn't say wrong, just immoral)

From http://www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=immoral

Main Entry: im·mor·al
Pronunciation: (")i(m)-'mor-&l, -'mär-
Function: adjective
: not moral; broadly : conflicting with generally or traditionally held moral principles
- im·mor·al·ly /-&-lE/ adverb

Similarly:

Main Entry: 1mor·al
Pronunciation: 'mor-&l, 'mär-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin moralis, from mor-, mos custom
1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>
2 : probable though not proved : VIRTUAL <a moral certainty>
3 : having the effects of such on the mind, confidence, or will <a moral victory> <moral support>
- mor·al·ly /-&-lE/ adverb
synonyms MORAL, ETHICAL, VIRTUOUS, RIGHTEOUS, NOBLE mean conforming to a standard of what is right and good. MORAL implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong <the basic moral values of a community>. ETHICAL may suggest the involvement of more difficult or subtle questions of rightness, fairness, or equity <committed to the highest ethical principles>. VIRTUOUS implies the possession or manifestation of moral excellence in character <not a religious person, but virtuous nevertheless>. RIGHTEOUS stresses guiltlessness or blamelessness and often suggests the sanctimonious <wished to be righteous before God and the world>. NOBLE implies moral eminence and freedom from anything petty, mean, or dubious in conduct and character <had the noblest of reasons for seeking office>.

from http://www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=moral&x=17&y=20

___________________________________________________________

Thus, Hawkeye - the big red dic. disagrees with your apparently religious def. of morality and the status of being "immoral" :shrug:

amber

10-13-2004, 07:48 PM

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 07:51 PM

This goes into the "More Than You EVER Wanted To Know About Johnny Stew" file... :laugh: ... but there are... *ahem*... certain acts which I have decided to wait to experience.

Not everything, mind you. I'm not 100% innocent, nor am I a prude. It's not that at all. I guess I'm kind of like a Penguin... I mate for life.
I've had total crushes on various guys before, and I've been very sexually attracted to certain guys before, but I understand the different between sex and love. And I prefer sex to have meaning.

(Trying to figure out how much to explain, before I go waaaay into "too much info" territory.) :o

I have a very good sex-drive. Maybe a little too good. And when I'm dating someone, I've had a tendency to wear them out (while still not going "all the way").
But when I'm not dating someone, I have no interest in going out and looking for an outlet for my drive. I simply take a cue from Peter Green, and we'll leave it at that.

Being gay but "waiting," seems to blow a lot of people's minds. Again, they're well-meaning, but they don't quite seem to "get it." And they don't get why I'm not out "getting it."

If I had a dollar for every time well-meaning friends have told me that I'm wasting being "young and attractive" (their words), by not capitalizing on it, I could put a dent in the national debt.

And in the gay community, experience is considered a great asset. The majority of gay men are not looking for someone with limited experience. They don't have the desire or patience to "break someone in."

But I'm not interested in how much experience I have or don't have, and I'm not interested in how many notches there are on my bedpost.
When I find my mate, I'll catch up on anything I may have missed... and then some.

For me it's about self-respect and morality. I don't feel "my way" is the right way, or that it's right for anyone other than myself... I'm just staying true to how I feel, and I'd rather not have a series of one-night stands or casual flings.
By that token, some people (the most extremely religious on this Earth) would think I've done way too much as it is, while other people think I've done far too little.
It's another area in which I'm somewhere in the middle.

And, yeah, I'll admit there are times when I wonder if I've made the right choice, and if I'm dooming myself to singledom... but nothing truly worth having ever comes without being earned.

So, Hillary... and anyone else "waiting," no matter what their age... stay strong and stick to your guns. YOU know what's right for you. No one else does. All the well-meaning advice in the world doesn't mean a thing if it's not the right advice for YOU.

And just know that you're not the only one. :)I really respect, understand, and relate to where you're coming from. Thanks so much for posting all of that! :xoxo:

Hillary

Hawkeye

10-13-2004, 07:58 PM

Well I think it's wrong but I also don't believe that bullsh*t that gays choose to be gay. When I hear John Haggee say stupid crap like being gay isn't in the genes YOU CHOOSE IT (in case you didn't know I HATE John Haggee)

So what you're asking how can you believe both of those things. I don't know. It just seems so un natural. It's just man was made perfect for women, like you know they fit. It's how it was meant to be, and personally i feel that homesexuality is a horrible life long disease, that really should get much more sympathy (OK I'm having crystal visions of replies with phrases like you stupid, ignorant, retard with legs, but heh it's what I think, sorry)

BUT Johnny Stew s gay and dislikes SMAP, while Dissention likes SMAP and is straight, who is more immoral in my mind, Dissention of course.

markolas

10-13-2004, 08:02 PM

Ugh. Whose bright idea was it to invite the breeders, again?

amber

10-13-2004, 08:08 PM

Well I think it's wrong but I also don't believe that bullsh*t that gays are born gay. When I hear John Haggee say stupid crap like being gay isn't in the genes YOU CHOOSE IT (in case you didn't know I HATE John Haggee)

So what you're asking how can you believe both of those things. I don't know. It just seems so un natural. It's just man was made perfect for women, like you know they fit. It's how it was meant to be, and personally i feel that homesexuality is a horrible life long disease, that really should get much more sympathy (OK I'm having crystal visions of replies with phrases like you stupid, ignorant, retard with legs, but heh it's what I think, sorry)

BUT Johnny Stew s gay and dislikes SMAP, while Dissention likes SMAP and is straight, who is more immoral in my mind, Dissention of course.
Well, maybe you should do a little more research. Why would someone choose to be gay? But i really can't argue with you, because i see that it will be pointless, especially if you think people aren't born gay. I mean your brain realm is really foreign to me, and i'll just get pissed off - however, that thing about SMAP was funny. seriously, bring the education and brain waves up a notch...ok, sorry, that was rude, but i just can't believe it.

amber

10-13-2004, 08:10 PM

Ugh. Whose bright idea was it to invite the breeders, again?
This seems prejudice to me. Did you ever like it when you heard people say "uh, who invited the fag?" And sorry, i just read what's on the Ledge...you know, everyone is sort of implicitly invited.
Amber

Hawkeye

10-13-2004, 08:14 PM

OOOOOPS What I meant to write was I don't believe that Gays CHOOSE to be gay. I really shoulkd edit what I wrote, becausre it changes the whole post.

strandinthewind

10-13-2004, 08:16 PM

Aside from the fact that your opinion is the kind that when taught to others breeds hate and generally just pisses me off, I have to clarify this.

Man is perfect for women where procreation is concerned. So what's this about there being too many people in the world? There's nothing to say that same sex isn't natural, it just doesn't breed and therefore future existence always stems from heterosexual relationships. It's neither here nor there, it just is. It doesn't make the opposite unnatural, just unable to procreate. There's always enough heterosexuals going around to cover the procreation part, so what's so unnatural about others not partaking? Who said procreation is what existence is about? If it is then it seems rather pointless, like we're going around in circles, existing so that others can exist and allow further more to exist. Anyway, as I said, us straight ones and the Chinese have that covered.

AMen Lux :xoxo: (above the waistine - -well maybe more later :eek: :wavey: )

Seriously, Hawkeye - to follow your reasoning would mean no handjobs (auto or otherwise), no fellatio, no cunnilingus - none of it. After all, mouths and hands (not to mention feet :laugh:) were not made for that - but they sure are fun :eek: and, according to you, immoral - but, not knowing you at all but knowing human nature - I suspect you have done at least one and perhaps still claim to be moral :confused: If you have not then I am wrong in my assumption.

Tone: Respectful - but distressed

amber

10-13-2004, 08:16 PM

OOOOOPS What I meant to write was I don't believe that Gays CHOOSE to be gay. I really shoulkd edit what I wrote, becausre it changes the whole post.
But what about the disease part? You think of it as a disease your born with?

markolas

10-13-2004, 08:17 PM

This seems prejudice to me. Did you ever like it when you heard people say "uh, who invited the fag?" And sorry, i just read what's on the Ledge...you know, everyone is sort of implicitly invited.
Amber

Of course it's prejudiced. :) And rude, and tactless. But no more so than what Hawkeye posted. This isn't a "debate the morality of homosexuality" thread. Yet, it seems that some heteros can't resist spouting their ignorant opinions, even when they haven't been asked.

Hawkeye

10-13-2004, 08:18 PM

But what about the disease part? You think of it as a disease your born with?

Hmmm, I'll get bnack to you ont that one.

strandinthewind

10-13-2004, 08:18 PM

So um, are we allowed to call gay people fags? We all seem to get lumped into one by gay people or atleast the ones I know seem to think I'm partially responsible for predjudice simply because I'm straight. Once again, tis rather picky of me, but it's reverse discrimination.

So how are you, you great poof? (see only John Cleese can get away with that)

Shut up you fag hag :cool:

(for the faint of heart - I adore Lux and am yanking her chain :cool: )

strandinthewind

10-13-2004, 08:20 PM

Hmmm, I'll get bnack to you ont that one.

In cards, that is known as "called for and could not come" :laugh: If you consider it a disease, you are going against present day medical science. But, it is your opinion and you are entitled to it :shrug:

Tone: again respectful :xoxo:

Hawkeye

10-13-2004, 08:21 PM

After all, mouths and hands were not made for that - but they sure are fun

Well you got me there :eek:

amber

10-13-2004, 08:22 PM

Of course it's prejudiced. :) And rude, and tactless. But no more so than what Hawkeye posted. This isn't a "debate the morality of homosexuality" thread. Yet, it seems that some heteros can't resist spouting their ignorant opinions, even when they haven't been asked.
okay. but then you got me, too, in your insult. And yes, i know you were not talking about me.

markolas

10-13-2004, 08:23 PM

This is what I'm talking about.

A perfectly good thread which has been turned into one more situation in which we gay folk are forced by heteros to justify our very existence. I refuse to participate. Hawkeye can go f*ck himself.

strandinthewind

10-13-2004, 08:23 PM

Well you got me there :eek:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

When I was typing that I was like "no one is going to DARE confront this postulate" :laugh:

amber

10-13-2004, 08:24 PM

Aside from the fact that your opinion is the kind that when taught to others breeds hate and generally just pisses me off, I have to clarify this.

Man is perfect for women where procreation is concerned. So what's this about there being too many people in the world? There's nothing to say that same sex isn't natural, it just doesn't breed and therefore future existence always stems from heterosexual relationships. It's neither here nor there, it just is. It doesn't make the opposite unnatural, just unable to procreate. There's always enough heterosexuals going around to cover the procreation part, so what's so unnatural about others not partaking? Who said procreation is what existence is about? If it is then it seems rather pointless, like we're going around in circles, existing so that others can exist and allow further more to exist. Anyway, as I said, us straight ones and the Chinese have that covered.
I gotta say lux, for me, you're really "on" today. Like a refreshing soda commercial. But i will not attempt to virtually kiss you using two non gender animated smileys... :wavey: I will just wave... :laugh:
Amber

strandinthewind

10-13-2004, 08:26 PM

II will just wave... :laugh:

well - if she was standing above you a la

:eek:
:wavey:

:cool: :laugh:

amber

10-13-2004, 08:28 PM

well - if she was standing above you a la

:eek:
:wavey:

:cool: :laugh:
:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol: <==== cut to me

Hawkeye

10-13-2004, 08:29 PM

WOW they're talking about this on the debate RIGHT NOW. Threy both make total sense. Kerry's amking more because he says they're born that way.

strandinthewind

10-13-2004, 08:29 PM

:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol: <==== cut to me

oh how quickly the conversation descends and just when I thought it could go no lower than my post :eek: :laugh:

amber

10-13-2004, 08:29 PM

amber

10-13-2004, 08:30 PM

oh how quickly the conversation descends and just when I thought it could go no lower than my post :eek: :laugh:
it didn't, i was just laughing...you salacious bastard! :)

markolas

10-13-2004, 08:31 PM

Ah, not into the whole arguing your point thing :laugh: But if you leave, then he wins!!! :)

I shouldn't have to argue my point. Neither should any other gay person here.

strandinthewind

10-13-2004, 08:33 PM

it didn't, i was just laughing...you salacious bastard! :)

I know - I was being tongue in cheek - no pun intended :eek:

Oh it is getting late :laugh:

Descending deeper and deeper into it aren't I!!!! :laugh:

amber

10-13-2004, 08:35 PM

I shouldn't have to argue my point. Neither should any other gay person here.
No one should have to argue about anything. But the fact is, people believe all kinds of different things, and it's hard to change people's minds without discussion. :shrug: but yeah, it's not up to you to argue on behalf of gay people or anything...it just seems more productive...

Hawkeye

10-13-2004, 08:35 PM

Ah, not into the whole arguing your point thing :laugh: But if you leave, then he wins!!! :)

What am I trying to win :lol:

amber

10-13-2004, 08:36 PM

I know - I was being tongue in cheek - no pun intended :eek:

Oh it is getting late :laugh:

Descending deeper and deeper into it aren't I!!!! :laugh:
Now there's a pun I can get behind!! :laugh: And yeah, it is getting late, already 6:30! :cool:

strandinthewind

10-13-2004, 08:37 PM

What am I trying to win :lol:

come on :laugh: - you do not throw a line out there like that and then expect no debate to ensue - just wiat until the Pres. debate is over and the rest of the gang join in :eek:

amber

10-13-2004, 08:37 PM

What am I trying to win :lol:
A gay friend? no, i was using that as more of a figure of speech...

strandinthewind

10-13-2004, 08:39 PM

Well why the hell didn't you say so earlier? We need to get to the arrangements pronto. You book the church or elvis shrine and I'll start reading up on my US history so they don't hurtle me out of the country upon arrival. Everyone's invited...well not dissention.

Oh did I misinterpret you? I'm sorry, this adoration had me jumping to conclusions.

Egads! I count two people showing me something other than great disdain. Well what a day for me! I shall record this for proof when referencing back to this great occasion.

You are dressing as Stevie and marching down the aisle while twirling to Rhiannon - I will grow a fro, lose weight, and dress as a chest hair exposed 1970's LB - oh the site!!!!!!!!!

:cool:

markolas

10-13-2004, 08:41 PM

No one should have to argue about anything. But the fact is, people believe all kinds of different things, and it's hard to change people's minds without discussion. :shrug: but yeah, it's not up to you to argue on behalf of gay people or anything...it just seems more productive...

I'm not sure you're getting what I'm saying.

Hawkeye posted that flaming pile of ignorant sh*t on a social thread. Not a debate thread. No one asked what he thought. He seems to suffer from the delusion that we have to justify our existence to him (and people like him), and that's not a game I'm going to play.

amber

10-13-2004, 08:41 PM

You are dressing as Stevie and marching down the aisle while twirling to Rhiannon - I will grow a fro, lose weight, and dress as a chest hair exposed 1970's LB - oh the site!!!!!!!!!

:cool:
shoot! always a fake stevie bridesmaid, never a fake stevie bride...*sigh* :laugh:

amber

10-13-2004, 08:44 PM

I'm not sure you're getting what I'm saying.

Hawkeye posted that flaming pile of ignorant sh*t on a social thread. Not a debate thread. No one asked what he thought. He seems to suffer from the delusion that we have to justify our existence to him (and people like him), and that's not a game I'm going to play.
okay! he didn't ask you to justify, he said his opinion. I didn't know it had to be a "debate thread" for people to argue. Fine, don't play! oh, look, there's your huff, you should leave in it... :laugh:
don't argue, i just think it's easier to change people's minds that way, but if you don't wanna, fine!ok!

strandinthewind

10-13-2004, 08:47 PM

Hmmm, well I had to think about this but I'm up for it. I shall drape myself in chiffon and twirl (lazily shuffle) my way towards the altar in my reeboks, trying not to trip on the dangling beads. You shall respond to everything with some spiel about cycles and spoteneity until the priest tells you to "shut the f*ck up, just put the ring on her finger". I say, we're set then.

now - about your trousseau . . . :laugh:

Hawkeye

10-13-2004, 08:47 PM

I'm not sure you're getting what I'm saying.

Hawkeye posted that flaming pile of ignorant sh*t on a social thread. Not a debate thread. No one asked what he thought. He seems to suffer from the delusion that we have to justify our existence to him (and people like him), and that's not a game I'm going to play.

WHAT, flaming pile of sh*t. I thought I went OUT OF MY WAY to be say what I said as nicely as possible. I even ask, please don't get mad in not so fine print at least twice. Obviously you didn't listen to my request :p

amber

10-13-2004, 08:50 PM

markolas

10-13-2004, 08:53 PM

okay! he didn't ask you to justify, he said his opinion. I didn't know it had to be a "debate thread" for people to argue. Fine, don't play! oh, look, there's your huff, you should leave in it... :laugh:
don't argue, i just think it's easier to change people's minds that way, but if you don't wanna, fine!ok!

The fact that he even stated his opinion, which was both uninvited and unwelcome, speaks volumes. It's like someone starting a "Jewish Ledgies Unite" thread, and having some fanatical Christian post that Jews ought to accept Jesus as their savior. The Jewish ledgies weren't asking what Christians thought of them or their religion, and the fact that the Christian posted that shows an almost unimaginable amount of arrogance.

amber

10-13-2004, 08:54 PM

The fact that he even stated his opinion, which was both uninvited and unwelcome, speaks volumes. It's like someone starting a "Jewish Ledgies Unite" thread, and having some fanatical Christian post that Jews ought to accept Jesus as their savior. The Jewish ledgies weren't asking what Christians thought of them or their religion, and the fact that the Christian posted that shows an almost unimaginable amount of arrogance.
okay. I see.

The Tower

10-13-2004, 08:55 PM

National Coming Out Day is antiquated? I think a couple of you ought to take a field trip to the town in Louisiana where I grew up.

I guess I didn't articulate that well... The feel I was trying to get across is that it seems silly that coming out is even necessary anymore. I realize that there are many scary, bigoted parts of the world still lurking about (Santa Clarita, CA, my old hometown is still one of them). But one would think with all the globalization and the internet and the culture-flow of today that people wouldn't be "shocked" or have to "find out" that someone is gay.

Yes, there are prejudiced bigots out there. However, they seem even more pathetic in today's times than they ever did.

The Tower

10-13-2004, 08:56 PM

Thanks so much for your words, Johnny and Tower (what is your real name--I feel awfully silly saying "Thanks, The Tower") And I really appreciate your list of advantages to being gay. They are funny and true.

Hi Hilary, my name is Chris. I really do hope you feel better about yourself. You are lucky to be 22 years old in this time of (the beginning of) gay enlightenment. Someday, I tell ya the old stories of trying to be gay in the early 80's. Granted- Duran Duran, A-Ha, Culture Club, Soft Cell, Bronski Beat and Kajagoogoo ( :eek: !) were out there as pop cover for us 80's queers. However, it still was in the deep dark land of Reagan gettinng 500+ electoral votes in the 1984 election. OUCH!!!

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 08:56 PM

Geez...I leave this thread for two hours and have to spend half that catchin up lol....;)

The Tower

10-13-2004, 08:57 PM

So question - why is it that people who consider themselves "bi" get so much ****...I'm not selfish and actually have not dated a women in more than five years now I'm not a nympho...I believe in being with one person and one person only etc....however, me and a friend of mine who is also bi have been like pretty much ostracized by some of our gay friends...when we chose to date a man...:shrug: I have also heard people say that bisexuality is bull****....it's a "Stepping stone" - that, I think, is bull**** since I've felt this way my entire life...seriously...

I think the "bi gets so much ****" thing has a little history in being non-committal to being gay. There are many who don't believe that bi-sexuality can truly exist. However, I know many people who really are bi-sexual. They can be attracted to, and fall in love with, either sex.

In the male gay world, there are many men who claims themselves "bi" because they are afraid to admit that they are gay. I know a ton of lesbians, but I'm not deep enough into their culture to know why there might be "dyke/bi intolerance". Maybe it's because bi women associate with straight men. I know a lot of dykes that have trouble with the whole "straight man - patriarchal" thing.

In any case- I believe this little nightclub is open to everyone. Gay, Lesbian, Bi-Sexual, Trans-Gendered, Straight, Sorta Straight, Trade, "Gee, Mom, I Don't Know How Those Playgirls Got Under My Mattress" People, Granola Dykes, Lipstick Lesbians, Drag Queens, and "I Don't Know What the Hell I Am" People. :thumbsup:

The Tower

10-13-2004, 08:58 PM

Don't you just love the fact that the people who put donw gay men and women fail to mention that all of those "homos" come from straight couples? :laugh:

Totally. I always want to say to Fred Phelps and his ilk, "Hey motherf*cker!! You can kill us all off, but you and your het friends will just continue to create us!!!"

And by the way, my dear- if I can get you a date with Doug Wilson, will I get my toaster oven?? :lol: :lol: ;)

I've enjoyed reading you guys' gay thread..hope you dont mind me responding....I'm a straight male who loves gay people? "isnt that weird?"

That is a SCREAM!!! This whole time I was picturing you as a Chris as in "Christine"..... Of course you are welcome!! The more the merrier. I'm gonna have to wipe out my mental picture of you and replace it with- well, let's just leave it at that....

amber

10-13-2004, 08:58 PM

Geez...I leave this thread for two hours and have to spend half that catchin up lol....;)
ah, you must read faster...Or NEVER LEAVE THE LEDGE :laugh:

markolas

10-13-2004, 08:59 PM

WHAT, flaming pile of sh*t. I thought I went OUT OF MY WAY to be say what I said as nicely as possible. I even ask, please don't get mad in not so fine print at least twice. Obviously you didn't listen to my request :p

You obviously don't get that there is no "nice" way to say something like that. The statement was inherently offensive, and it was made even more so by you asking that we not get offended even as you were being knowingly insulting.

The Tower

10-13-2004, 08:59 PM

And I'll go over the rainbow with her if I can get a crack at Doug. ;) I sure do love the ladies, but I'd be willing to forget about them for a night with him. :laugh:

You just answered my earlier proposal.... :thumbsup: :]

Nothing. But there must be something wrong with me if I haven't lashed my wicked tongue in your general direction yet. :laugh: :xoxo:

:eek: :eek:

amber

10-13-2004, 08:59 PM

The only thing i don't like about gay men is that they will never date me... :distress: :laugh:

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 09:00 PM

I think the "bi gets so much ****" thing has a little history in being non-committal to being gay. There are many who don't believe that bi-sexuality can truly exist. However, I know many people who really are bi-sexual. They can be attracted to, and fall in love with, either sex.

In the male gay world, there are many men who claims themselves "bi" because they are afraid to admit that they are gay. I know a ton of lesbians, but I'm not deep enough into their culture to know why there might be "dyke/bi intolerance". Maybe it's because bi women associate with straight men. I know a lot of dykes that have trouble with the whole "straight man - patriarchal" thing.

In any case- I believe this little nightclub is open to everyone. Gay, Lesbian, Bi-Sexual, Trans-Gendered, Straight, Sorta Straight, Trade, "Gee, Mom, I Don't Know How Those Playgirls Got Under My Mattress" People, Granola Dykes, Lipstick Lesbians, Drag Queens, and "I Don't Know What the Hell I Am" People. :thumbsup:

I prefer "heteroflexible" :laugh: I'm totally kidding - that's what we used to call the trendy bi's in our area...

What I don't get is why some STILL see bi as non-commital to being gay...it seriously pisses me off when people (behind my back no less) say I'm in denial...oy....but Ive been down that road in this thread already hahaha....I am who I am...not much I can do at this point but enjoy it :)

amber

10-13-2004, 09:01 PM

I prefer "heteroflexible" :laugh: I'm totally kidding - that's what we used to call the trendy bi's in our area...

What I don't get is why some STILL see bi as non-commital to being gay...it seriously pisses me off when people (behind my back no less) say I'm in denial...oy....but Ive been down that road in this thread already hahaha....I am who I am...not much I can do at this point but enjoy it :)
With more choices, to boot! :nod:

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 09:02 PM

With more choices, to boot! :nod:

Yet still alone on a Saturday night ;)

Kidding...right now I honestly don't want to date anyone male or female...I'm still getting over the end of my 2 1/2 year relationship....which ended well but ended nonetheless...

markolas

10-13-2004, 09:06 PM

I guess I didn't articulate that well... The feel I was trying to get across is that it seems silly that coming out is even necessary anymore. I realize that there are many scary, bigoted parts of the world still lurking about (Santa Clarita, CA, my old hometown is still one of them). But one would think with all the globalization and the internet and the culture-flow of today that people wouldn't be "shocked" or have to "find out" that someone is gay.

Yes, there are prejudiced bigots out there. However, they seem even more pathetic in today's times than they ever did.

Globalization, internet, and culture flow hasn't trickled down into an awful lot of places yet. It isn't just gay people that folks in my hometown would be shocked by. When I was in school (and this is an almost exclusively Southern Baptist region), meeting someone who was Jewish or Catholic would have been nearly as shocking (and they probably would have garnered almost as much ostracism).

The Tower

10-13-2004, 09:06 PM

Yes, I was out running erronds all day and didn't see this thread until just now....

DrummerDeanna

10-13-2004, 09:07 PM

Yes, I was out running erronds all day and didn't see this thread until just now....

:lol: so you've got mad catching up to do...or had lol....

Let me tell ya this thread made my afternoon at work fly right by....however I nearly missed several air breaks during my shift lol....still 'tis interesting

The Tower

10-13-2004, 09:10 PM

This goes into the "More Than You EVER Wanted To Know About Johnny Stew" file... :laugh: ... but there are... *ahem*... certain acts which I have decided to wait to experience.

Man, you are just something else... I almost spit my iced tea all over the screen when I read this!!

Whatta sweetie... :D

Hawkeye

10-13-2004, 09:11 PM

Well you can't post that you hate blacks then in fine print ask people not to get mad and expect that to suffice.

I didn't say that i hate gay people.

amber

10-13-2004, 09:12 PM

Globalization, internet, and culture flow hasn't trickled down into an awful lot of places yet. It isn't just gay people that folks in my hometown would be shocked by. When I was in school (and this is an almost exclusively Southern Baptist region), meeting someone who was Jewish or Catholic would have been nearly as shocking (and they probably would have garnered almost as much ostracism).
:laugh: :laugh: that's like my town, but without the ostracism...I don't remember anyone being jewish, or black (cept my doctor, he was from Africa) or anything..I was the poorest, darkest one... :laugh: But we were taught that being prejudiced is wrong...although, god knows what people are taught at home. I think my mormon best friend in highschool said something about there being a different layer of heaven for black people...but she also told me her dad was gay, but he didn't practice :shrug: (they had 4 kids...) and that it was annoying when it seemed like her dad was flirting with her boyfriend :laugh: (although, i swear to god, that boy looked as much like paul newman as anyone can look :shocked: )

The Tower

10-13-2004, 09:12 PM

Well you can't post that you hate blacks then in fine print ask people not to get mad and expect that to suffice.

I wouldn't equivocate ignorance with hate. I don't think Hawkeye meant any harm- he was just being honest. I don't agree with him- but perhaps he just needs to be educated a little bit about what it's really like to be gay.

Any takers????

:laugh: :laugh:

amber

10-13-2004, 09:13 PM

Man, you are just something else... I almost spit my iced tea all over the screen when I read this!!

Whatta sweetie... :D
and if he's talking about what i think he is, I haven't even waited to experience that... :shocked: :laugh:

markolas

10-13-2004, 09:15 PM

and if he's talking about what i think he is, I haven't even waited to experience that... :shocked: :laugh:

I'm not sure if I've waited to experience it or not. :) He needs to be more specific. :p

strandinthewind

10-13-2004, 09:16 PM

I didn't say that i hate gay people.

I did not get that you hate gay people from your post - what I got was that gay people are not the norm and therefore should be tolerated as an abberation, but never really welcomed into the "we are straight it is our world" fold. To gay people, that is like the bullies in the playground at school. So, I think your comments could be expected to immediately cause gay people to be defensive - I mean who would not be defensive if they had to be guarded all of their lives and live in fear of having the bullies (not you :cool: ) always demeaning them and threatening to beat the crap out of you just for walking down the street. That is hard :shrug:

amber

10-13-2004, 09:17 PM

I'm not sure if I've waited to experience it or not. :) He needs to be more specific. :p
Ha! you just want gory details... :laugh:

The Tower

10-13-2004, 09:21 PM

Globalization, internet, and culture flow hasn't trickled down into an awful lot of places yet. It isn't just gay people that folks in my hometown would be shocked by. When I was in school (and this is an almost exclusively Southern Baptist region), meeting someone who was Jewish or Catholic would have been nearly as shocking (and they probably would have garnered almost as much ostracism).

I absolutely agree with you. However, I still can't shake the idea of it being strange.

My dad was born in 1933 and he never got the idea of separate restrooms and drinking fountains for "colored" people.

I guess it's just part of existing in this paradigm shift that's going on right now. Ten years from now, I'll betcha that even the bowels (no pun intended :eek: ) of Mississippi will be on the right track.

Oh, and I forgot to say it-

Welcome honey, you were born in one of my favorite years of all time *1979*. Donna Summer released "On The Radio - Greatest Hits", which I begged my parents to get me for Christmas (how the hell they didn't know I was a fag by that point is still a mystery to me). And the greatest album of all time, "Tusk" was released.

markolas

10-13-2004, 09:21 PM

Ha! you just want gory details... :laugh:

Well, yes. :D

But, in theory, he could be talking about a lot of things.

amber

10-13-2004, 09:24 PM

Well, yes. :D

But, in theory, he could be talking about a lot of things.
you think so? I thought immediately he was talking about one thing. That he hasn't done? and he spoke about it in a "last frontier" sort of way...I can't think of anything else that fits that criteria...but, maybe there's something...wait, no... :laugh:

markolas

10-13-2004, 09:28 PM

I guess it's just part of existing in this paradigm shift that's going on right now. Ten years from now, I'll betcha that even the bowels (no pun intended :eek: ) of Mississippi will be on the right track.
I'd say 20 years, at least, but I'm kind of a pessimist. :)

Oh, and I forgot to say it-

Welcome honey, you were born in one of my favorite years of all time *1979*. Donna Summer released "On The Radio - Greatest Hits", which I begged my parents to get me for Christmas (how the hell they didn't know I was a fag by that point is still a mystery to me). And the greatest album of all time, "Tusk" was released.
Thanks. :D

I agree about Tusk, but I've never really cared for disco divas...

markolas

10-13-2004, 09:30 PM

you think so? I thought immediately he was talking about one thing. That he hasn't done? and he spoke about it in a "last frontier" sort of way...I can't think of anything else that fits that criteria...but, maybe there's something...wait, no... :laugh:

Oh, I thought immediately about one thing, too. But there are a couple of different ways to approach it. ;)

amber

10-13-2004, 09:33 PM

Oh, I thought immediately about one thing, too. But there are a couple of different ways to approach it. ;)
ok. i thought there was just the one way... :laugh:

GateandGarden

10-13-2004, 10:53 PM

Hi Hilary, my name is Chris. I really do hope you feel better about yourself. You are lucky to be 22 years old in this time of (the beginning of) gay enlightenment. Someday, I tell ya the old stories of trying to be gay in the early 80's. Granted- Duran Duran, A-Ha, Culture Club, Soft Cell, Bronski Beat and Kajagoogoo ( :eek: !) were out there as pop cover for us 80's queers. However, it still was in the deep dark land of Reagan gettinng 500+ electoral votes in the 1984 election. OUCH!!!Hi Chris! :wavey:

I can't help but think that Reagan winning the 1984 election was all too appropriate, though I see more parallels now with the Bush administration. Not that I'm all that savvy when it comes to politics.

Hillary

sparky

10-13-2004, 11:26 PM

I've been told by well-meaning friends that I need to wear my hair in "gay styles," or that I need to "dress more gay," etc. I've also been told on many occasion that I need to "play the game" if I want to find someone.

I was going to slog through all 17 pages of this before responding to anything, but this stopped me dead in my tracks. That is one of the most idiotic sets of statements I have ever heard tell about. Some friends. What planet of conformity and self delusion did they fall off of ? You certainly have the right attitude about this, but I probably would have told those people to FO. :xoxo:

diamondsnake

10-13-2004, 11:31 PM

homesexuality is a horrible life long disease

:mad:
That is the most offensive thing I have heard in months. I really can't help but see red when I read a comment like that.

sparky

10-13-2004, 11:36 PM

Now - I however, hate labels - but for all general purposes I guess I can be considered bisexual. I've had amazing relationships with both men and women...BUT I fit no stereotpye either - and I get SO MUCH **** from the gay community in my hometown (which i just left a few months ago).
So question - why is it that people who consider themselves "bi" get so much ****...I'm not selfish and actually have not dated a women in more than five years now :eek: I'm not a nympho...I believe in being with one person and one person only etc....however, me and a friend of mine who is also bi have been like pretty much ostracized by some of our gay friends...when we chose to date a man...:shrug: I have also heard people say that bisexuality is bull****....it's a "Stepping stone" - that, I think, is bull**** since I've felt this way my entire life...seriously...

Well, one of my best friends is divorcing her husband and is having an affair with a woman who has never had a lesbian relationship. My friend had one in college, but was then married for 12 years. She seems very happy and I am thrilled for her.

Last night on a Sex and The City rerun one of the characters said, and I paraphrase, "Bisexual is just a stop on the way to Gaytown."

I laughed, of course, but I don't always agree. In my experience, many more women are truly bisexual - and there aren't many of them. As for the men, it has usually proven over time to indeed be a stop on the way to Gaytown. But that's just my experience, with my social contacts.

diamondsnake

10-13-2004, 11:43 PM

Well, one of my best friends is divorcing her husband and is having an affair with a woman who has never had a lesbian relationship. My friend had one in college, but was then married for 12 years. She seems very happy and I am thrilled for her.

Last night on a Sex and The City rerun one of the characters said, and I paraphrase, "Bisexual is just a stop on the way to Gaytown."

I laughed, of course, but I don't always agree. In my experience, many more women are truly bisexual - and there aren't many of them. As for the men, it has usually proven over time to indeed be a stop on the way to Gaytown. But that's just my experience, with my social contacts.
I saw that episode- I was rolling on the floor when Charlotte was like "I don't care if you are gay or straight, just pick a side and stay there!"

takenbythesky

10-13-2004, 11:45 PM

Johnny Stew

10-13-2004, 11:56 PM

Ummmm, I don't want to piss you off Johnny (or anyone else here but I guess it'll be hard to avoid), but I find it wierd that you say it's about morality and you're gay, which I don't have anything against but that is pretty immoral (I didn't say wrong, just immoral)

Having been raised Catholic, I can understand where you're coming from when you question how one can be homosexual and "moralled" at the same time.

For many, it seems like a contradiction in terms.

In fact, it was something I struggled with for a very long time. How could I ever aspire to be all the things I was raised to be, and, yet, also be this "aberration."

Trust me, that kind of thinking seriously messed with my head for a very long time. Between that confliction, and the daily verbal and physical harassment I faced at school, I very nearly became a statistic.
I couldn't reconcile who I was with who I was told I should be. In my heart, I didn't think I was inherently bad simply because I wasn't 100% straight (at that point in time, I was still desperately clinging to the notion that I was, at MOST, bisexual), but the very fact that I had any romantic or sexual inclinations towards men, seemed to doom me to hell.

Because of my experiences, I can understand a lot of things... I can understand those who marry because they think they'll be able to keep their homosexuality "in check."
I can understand those who are afraid that it will never get better for them, and that their family and friends will never understand, so their only solution is suicide.
I can understand those who feel that they're "going to hell anyway," so their self-esteem suffers because of it, and they find themselves in emotionally-empty and unfulfilling situations and relationships, and/or find themselves dependent on drugs or alcohol.

When you're told, or lead to believe, that what you are is inherently immoral, it seems that there's nowhere left to go but downward.

I am, I believe, as God created me.
I didn't just wake up when I was 16 and say, "hey, I think I'll be gay"... I always was.

I remember, as a child, being captivated by masculinity. The way men and boys my age walked, talked, laughed, smelled, and on and on. I liked the way I felt when I was around them... this sense of completion. Like it was where I belonged.

I didn't understand sexuality at that age... I was very naive. So it wasn't about sex at all. It was about what felt "right" to me. A child.

But, along the way I realized that these feelings weren't considered normal. That what I was, and what I felt drawn to, was bad and a deviance.
I had it drummed into my head from all angles... family, peers, the media. Homosexuality was only regarded as one of two things: Something to hate or something to laugh at.

And, sadly, I bought into all that. Some guys lash out, but I turned inward. I hated myself, more than I could ever hate anything else.
It sounds corny, I admit, but sometimes it really was only Stevie's music that got me through from one day to another. I could find comfort in her trials and tribulations. They weren't exactly the same as mine, but I related to the journey.

Even still, it was nearly impossible, on a day-to-day basis, to find many things to get out of bed for. To want to live for.
So, yeah, I'll admit here and now that I started to plan not having to go on. What did Trent Reznor say? "A lifetime of f**king things up, fixed in one determined flash"?

But somewhere along the way... thank God, Allah, Buddha, the fates, the stars, Stevie's lyrics, and anything else there is to thank... I began to stop thinking of morality in other people's terms. I stopped thinking of morality as being this black & white, cut & dry thing.
And I began to stop thinking of myself as an aberration. I was raised to believe that God created us all in His image, and that each of us is here for a reason. So I started to think maybe I was here for a reason, too.
Not some outlandish, "I'm going to save the world from destruction someday" kind of thing... just that maybe I'd have the chance to touch some life, in some small way, and make even the tiniest of differences.

I realized I could be "moral": honest, helpful, compassionate, empathic, generous, loving... and still be gay. They weren't opposing forces after all.

If anything, my experiences coming to terms with being gay taught me all the more, how important it was to try and be as good of a person as I can.
I'm human, and I make mistakes. I'll never be perfect, and I'm not even trying to be... but I can aspire to be one of "the good guys."

Yeah, I hope that maybe someday something I say might help someone else realize that "gay & moralled" can indeed go hand in hand. It's a nice thought, no? :)

So, Hawkeye, if you're still with me... I do think that morality and homosexuality can go together. We're the ones who try to keep them apart. :nod:

sparky

10-13-2004, 11:57 PM

And in the gay community, experience is considered a great asset. The majority of gay men are not looking for someone with limited experience. They don't have the desire or patience to "break someone in."

But I'm not interested in how much experience I have or don't have, and I'm not interested in how many notches there are on my bedpost.
When I find my mate, I'll catch up on anything I may have missed... and then some.

For me it's about self-respect and morality.

There is something to be said for experience. I have had great sex with guys I couldn't name to save my life, and bad sex with guys I was dating and thought I really cared about...who knows why ?

I go back and forth on this issue. I have a boyfriend for 2-3 years. Then it ends. Then I am alone awhile. Then I go nuts and have a lot of sport sex. Then I get sick of that and want something meaningful. Then I get a new boyfriend.

In my life, each has value. Sometimes you want a five star ten course meal, sometimes you want fast food.

Things have turned before, and I felt like the sex WAS meaningless, empty, and kind of stupid. That would be when I stop and focus on finding a guy I really like.

Oh. BTW, did I mention I am a big ole HOMO ?

:laugh:

takenbythesky

10-14-2004, 12:00 AM

Having been raised Catholic, I can understand where you're coming from when you question how one can be homosexual and "moralled" at the same time.

For many, it seems like a contradiction in terms.

In fact, it was something I struggled with for a very long time. How could I ever aspire to be all the things I was raised to be, and, yet, also be this "aberration."

:

Thank you for posting that and thus putting a human face on the matter. The experience must have been hell. You seem to be a stronger person because of it. Morality and homosexuality can go together. Beautifully done. Way to go.

markolas

10-14-2004, 12:08 AM

I go back and forth on this issue. I have a boyfriend for 2-3 years. Then it ends. Then I am alone awhile. Then I go nuts and have a lot of sport sex. Then I get sick of that and want something meaningful. Then I get a new boyfriend.

In my life, each has value. Sometimes you want a five star ten course meal, sometimes you want fast food.

Things have turned before, and I felt like the sex WAS meaningless, empty, and kind of stupid. That would be when I stop and focus on finding a guy I really like.

I think I relate to Johnny more. I've found that I don't like having sex just for the hell of it, or "sport sex," as you called it. The couple of times I've done it, it's been very anti-climactic and unsatisfying. I've gone for as long as a year and a half without having sex, and it doesn't have much of an effect on me. I crave physical closeness (hugging, cuddling, etc.), a lot more than actual sex.

amber

10-14-2004, 12:11 AM

When you're told, or lead to believe, that what you are is inherently immoral, it seems that there's nowhere left to go but downward.:
This is so upsetting to me, that people are just told things, and that's what they believe...I don't mean you, i mean, people and society, who tell people things

I am, I believe, as God created me.
I didn't just wake up when I was 16 and say, "hey, I think I'll be gay"... I always was.:
This is the most logical point that i'm suprised religious people miss...god created everything, and he doesn't make mistakes (is what they say) It just seems so obvious to me...

But, along the way I realized that these feelings weren't considered normal. That what I was, and what I felt drawn to, was bad and a deviance.
I had it drummed into my head from all angles... family, peers, the media. Homosexuality was only regarded as one of two things: Something to hate or something to laugh at..

And, sadly, I bought into all that. Some guys lash out, but I turned inward. I hated myself, more than I could ever hate anything else...:
God, it makes me cry...

But somewhere along the way... thank God, Allah, Buddha, the fates, the stars, Stevie's lyrics, and anything else there is to thank... I began to stop thinking of morality in other people's terms. I stopped thinking of morality as being this black & white, cut & dry thing.
And I began to stop thinking of myself as an aberration. I was raised to believe that God created us all in His image, and that each of us is here for a reason. So I started to think maybe I was here for a reason, too....:
Yep...thank goodness...

I realized I could be "moral": honest, helpful, compassionate, empathic, generous, loving... and still be gay. They weren't opposing forces after all. ....:
hello, thank you, to me this is what religion is for...

Yeah, I hope that maybe someday something I say might help someone else realize that "gay & moralled" can indeed go hand in hand. It's a nice thought, no? :)....:
I think this post is a great start

So, Hawkeye, if you're still with me... I do think that morality and homosexuality can go together. We're the ones who try to keep them apart. :nod:
What a great post. I was crying, it was beautiful...it's the perfect "argument"
Amber

Johnny Stew

10-14-2004, 12:14 AM

if he's talking about what i think he is, I haven't even waited to experience that... :
I'm not sure if I've waited to experience it or not. He needs to be more specific.
Ha! you just want gory details...
Well, yes.
But, in theory, he could be talking about a lot of things.
you think so? I thought immediately he was talking about one thing. That he hasn't done? and he spoke about it in a "last frontier" sort of way...I can't think of anything else that fits that criteria...but, maybe there's something...wait, no...
Oh, I thought immediately about one thing, too. But there are a couple of different ways to approach it.
ok. i thought there was just the one way...

Eek! If this keeps up, I won't have to publish my memoirs! :p :o :laugh:

Uhm... yeah... let's just say that I've neither been a pitcher nor a catcher. I've been sitting in the dugout, biding my time. :nod: :o

(Blame it on my warped mind that "Centerfield" just popped into my head. "Put me in, Coach... I'm ready to play today....") :laugh:

sparky

10-14-2004, 12:15 AM

I think I relate to Johnny more. I've found that I don't like having sex just for the hell of it, or "sport sex," as you called it. The couple of times I've done it, it's been very anti-climactic and unsatisfying. I've gone for as long as a year and a half without having sex, and it doesn't have much of an effect on me. I crave physical closeness (hugging, cuddling, etc.), a lot more than actual sex.

God Bless ya for it. I have gone a year or more myself. Sometimes, sport sex is just okay, and sometimes it has been like winning an Olympic medal.
:thumbsup:

It all depends. Depends where my head and emotions are at the time. Certain times in my life, I can't be bothered to deal with all the work and time needed to cultivate a relationship just to feel physically intimate with someone. Maybe I have just been lucky in finding a number of F-buddies through the years who really, um, did the trick.

Regardless, my mind has been firmly in both places, at different times. I just listen and go with it.

amber

10-14-2004, 12:17 AM

Eek! If this keeps up, I won't have to publish my memoirs! :p :o :laugh:

Uhm... yeah... let's just say that I've neither been a pitcher nor a catcher. I've been sitting in the dugout, biding my time. :nod: :o

(Blame it on my warped mind that "Centerfield" just popped into my head. "Put me in, Coach... I'm ready to play today....") :laugh:
I love baseball metaphors...Omigod, i almost just wrote something tooootally that i shouldn't write :laugh: When you do, you should play the music from 2001: A Space Odessey..(sp) :laugh: BUUUUUUUUUM...BUUUUUUUUMMMM..............DAH DAH!!!DUMDUMDUMDUMDUMDUM
Watcha waitin for? :laugh:

amber

10-14-2004, 12:19 AM

God Bless ya for it. I have gone a year or more myself. Sometimes, sport sex is just okay, and sometimes it has been like winning an Olympic medal.
:thumbsup:
.
Me, too. Literally, there were gymnastics involved :laugh: :lol: I think I bowed at the end...
Amber

markolas

10-14-2004, 12:20 AM

Uhm... yeah... let's just say that I've neither been a pitcher nor a catcher. I've been sitting in the dugout, biding my time.

I just love these euphemisms. :laugh: But, yeah, that's exactly what I was wondering about. :D

takenbythesky

10-14-2004, 12:23 AM

Me, too. Literally, there were gymnastics involved :laugh: :lol: I think I bowed at the end...
Amber

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
Eek! If this keeps up, I won't have to publish my memoirs!

Uhm... yeah... let's just say that I've neither been a pitcher nor a catcher. I've been sitting in the dugout, biding my time.

(Blame it on my warped mind that "Centerfield" just popped into my head. "Put me in, Coach... I'm ready to play today....")

:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

So much innuendo here...It's like some kind of British sex farce!

markolas

10-14-2004, 12:26 AM

God Bless ya for it. I have gone a year or more myself

Well, it wasn't really by choice. The problem (if you want to think of it that way) is that it's damn near impossible for me to separate having sex and being romantically attached. There are other ways to satisfy my sex drive (which has never been that high anyway) that don't involve me making a fool of myself with someone.

estranged4life

10-14-2004, 12:30 AM

Uhm... yeah... let's just say that I've neither been a pitcher nor a catcher. I've been sitting in the dugout, biding my time. :nod: :o

(Blame it on my warped mind that "Centerfield" just popped into my head. "Put me in, Coach... I'm ready to play today....") :laugh:

the Red Sox could've used a pitcher tonite :nod:

Oh thanks alot, Now ya got me humming John Fogerty :lol:

Brian j.

amber

10-14-2004, 12:31 AM

the Red Sox could've used a pitcher tonite :nod:

Oh thanks alot, Now ya got me humming John Fogerty :lol:

Brian j.
Ah, but there are worse things than humming foge...man, you're a super baseball head tonight!

Johnny Stew

10-14-2004, 12:32 AM

There is something to be said for experience. I have had great sex with guys I couldn't name to save my life, and bad sex with guys I was dating and thought I really cared about...who knows why ?

I go back and forth on this issue. I have a boyfriend for 2-3 years. Then it ends. Then I am alone awhile. Then I go nuts and have a lot of sport sex. Then I get sick of that and want something meaningful. Then I get a new boyfriend.

In my life, each has value. Sometimes you want a five star ten course meal, sometimes you want fast food.

Things have turned before, and I felt like the sex WAS meaningless, empty, and kind of stupid. That would be when I stop and focus on finding a guy I really like.

My first sexual experience turned out to be a one-night stand. Was told all these sweet, wonderful things by this great-looking, fast-talking guy.
The man was sex on two-legs. VERY handsome, VERY charismatic, and, in no time at all, I was over the moon about the fact that he was paying any attention to ME.

So I bought into everything he said... believed that he thought I was this really great guy, and I was sooo funny, and he was really looking forward to getting to know me better and hanging out together, etc., etc.
And one thing lead to another.

He got a whole lot further than I would have dreamed he could, but I'm sure not as far as he would have liked to have gotten.
Still, when all was said and done, he thanked me for a great evening and then told me he had better get home before his girlfriend started to wonder where he was.

OUCH!

I pretty much decided that, while what we did was fun in the moment, it wasn't worth feeling empty and unfulfilled.

Ever after that, my experiences have been within relationships.

And, trust me, you can have a LOT of fun with one guy. You make it different, you get creative, and it can be just as "sporting."
In fact, there's a JC Penney's parking lot in Ohio that I'll never look at the same way again. ;) :laugh:

I swear someone must have slipped me some sodium pentathol tonight. :shocked:

Anyway, everyone is different. Like I said earlier, my way isn't the "right way"... it's just the right way for me.
As long as no one's hurting anyone else, I'm all for doing what works for you. :nod:

sparky

10-14-2004, 12:32 AM

Well, it wasn't really by choice. The problem (if you want to think of it that way) is that it's damn near impossible for me to separate having sex and being romantically attached. There are other ways to satisfy my sex drive (which has never been that high anyway) that don't involve me making a fool of myself with someone.

Number one, you sound like I did at 23 !

Number two - I don't follow how having sex means making a fool of one's self.
:shrug:

amber

10-14-2004, 12:33 AM

Well, it wasn't really by choice. The problem (if you want to think of it that way) is that it's damn near impossible for me to separate having sex and being romantically attached. There are other ways to satisfy my sex drive (which has never been that high anyway) that don't involve me making a fool of myself with someone.
What do you think makes people not have a high sex drive? Do you know? you're the same sign as me, so i can't call that :laugh: But seriously, do you exercise and are in good shape and eat well and stuff? I mean, my SD is easily sublimated, but it's there anyway... :confused:

estranged4life

10-14-2004, 12:34 AM

Ah, but there are worse things than humming foge...man, you're a super baseball head tonight!

I played baseball from age 9 to 18, Except for a major wrist injury I probably would still be playing...

This is the time of year I live for, the playoffs!

Brian j.

PS-Is it just me or does Mick & Lindsey on my "South Park" image seem to be looking at the "Stevie-goat's" ass??? And when did John McVie start singing on stage anyway???

Johnny Stew

10-14-2004, 12:35 AM

Thank you for posting that and thus putting a human face on the matter. The experience must have been hell. You seem to be a stronger person because of it. Morality and homosexuality can go together. Beautifully done. Way to go.

Thanks for the kind words. :)
I was torn between saying WAY too much, and not saying enough.

The idea of homosexuality equating immorality is something that really bothers me though, so I decided to err on the side of saying too much.

takenbythesky

10-14-2004, 12:37 AM

Johnny Stew, thanks for sharing so much. You've really opened my eyes...Helped me to better understand the difficulties you and others have faced. And you manage to do it with such good humor! :) (I'm straight, if you're wondering; I care about the struggles and experiences of gay people , in this case Ledgies.)

amber

10-14-2004, 12:38 AM

I played baseball from age 9 to 18, Except for a major wrist injury I probably would still be playing...

This is the time of year I live for, the playoffs!

Brian j.
Me, too (fastpitch softball) and i like to watch baseball ok (more than any other sport sides gymnastics and figure skating) but i always liked playing more than watching. I guess i've gotten passionate a few times (giants, two years ago) but also, from the time i can remember, age 2-3 or so, my mom would always be listening to a game on the radio (baseball, football, basketball :rolleyes: ) and be like "hush! I'm listening to the game!" or be like "no, you can't watch that cause the game's on" *sigh*!
anyways, this is supposed to be the gay ledgies unite thread, so i'll stop.
And no, Lindsey's just watching her walk in, cause she just arrived, right? um..."stevie goat's ass"?? :laugh: :lol: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
you know, i actually don't remember that scene from when i saw it, and now i'm really pissed cause i don't think i REALLY saw it :mad: hope it's on tape or DVD...that's season 4, right?

sparky

10-14-2004, 12:43 AM

My first sexual experience turned out to be a one-night stand. Was told all these sweet, wonderful things by this great-looking, fast-talking guy.
The man was sex on two-legs. VERY handsome, VERY charismatic, and, in no time at all, I was over the moon about the fact that he was paying any attention to ME.

So I bought into everything he said... believed that he thought I was this really great guy, and I was sooo funny, and he was really looking forward to getting to know me better and hanging out together, etc., etc.
And one thing lead to another.

He got a whole lot further than I would have dreamed he could, but I'm sure not as far as he would have liked to have gotten.
Still, when all was said and done, he thanked me for a great evening and then told me he had better get home before his girlfriend started to wonder where he was.

OUCH!

Wow. You got a jerk the first time out.

Ever after that, my experiences have been within relationships.

And, trust me, you can have a LOT of fun with one guy. You make it different, you get creative, and it can be just as "sporting."
In fact, there's a JC Penney's parking lot in Ohio that I'll never look at the same way again. ;) :laugh:

Oh, I know all about that ! I have had life altering experiences within the context of serious, monogamous, committed relationships. Four of 'em, at last count...one 5 years, one 2, two of them 3. At one point or another, I wanted each of them to be "the one", and thought maybe we could go the distance. Alas, none of them was the right guy for the long haul, though "each had their own charms" :laugh:
Life gets screwy. Things change. I have found that I don't believe a relationship has to be "forever" to have value and depth. Whatever happens, happens. If I find another connection that can match those others, or exceed them....great. If not, I feel lucky to have experienced all that I have.

:nod:

Johnny Stew

10-14-2004, 12:48 AM

What a great post. I was crying, it was beautiful...it's the perfect "argument"

Hi Amber... thanks for the response. :)
I didn't mean to make anyone cry though. I went through it, and, for me, it's over and done with now. Unfortunately there are a lot of kids going through it as we speak though... and, even worse, some of them won't make it to the other side.

Gay male JR. & SR. high school students are up to SEVEN TIMES likelier to attempt suicide than their straight peers, and are up to 30% likelier to be successful in those attempts.

We're not reaching out to them enough... they're falling through the cracks. Our religious leaders are failing them, their parents and adult role-models are failing them, and society in general is failing them.
That is something to cry about, and we need to do our best to change it.

I was one of the lucky ones, and I won't forget that.

Ok, off my soapbox now.

amber

10-14-2004, 12:51 AM

Hi Amber... thanks for the response. :)
I didn't mean to make anyone cry though. I went through it, and, for me, it's over and done with now. Unfortunately there are a lot of kids going through it as we speak though... and, even worse, some of them won't make it to the other side.

Gay male JR. & SR. high school students are up to SEVEN TIMES likelier to attempt suicide than their straight peers, and are up to 30% likelier to be successful in those attempts.

We're not reaching out to them enough... they're falling through the cracks. Our religious leaders are failing them, their parents and adult role-models are failing them, and society in general is failing them.
That is something to cry about, and we need to do our best to change it.

I was one of the lucky ones, and I won't forget that.

Ok, off my soapbox now.
Yeah, I know the stats. it's terrible. I'm glad it's getting better. And I cry easily - not in public :laugh: And I cry at great beauty...It just makes me sad that people are taught that "god" thinks they're bad...it's just so...illogical...(from what i know about god :rolleyes: :laugh: )
AMber

takenbythesky

10-14-2004, 12:52 AM

Hi Amber... thanks for the response. :)
I didn't mean to make anyone cry though. I went through it, and, for me, it's over and done with now. Unfortunately there are a lot of kids going through it as we speak though... and, even worse, some of them won't make it to the other side.

Gay male JR. & SR. high school students are up to SEVEN TIMES likelier to attempt suicide than their straight peers, and are up to 30% likelier to be successful in those attempts.

We're not reaching out to them enough... they're falling through the cracks. Our religious leaders are failing them, their parents and adult role-models are failing them, and society in general is failing them.
That is something to cry about, and we need to do our best to change it.

I was one of the lucky ones, and I won't forget that.

Ok, off my soapbox now.

Yes, yes, and yes. All reasons we're trying to find a way to weasel around my Catholic high school's inability to have a Gay/Straight Alliance. Our plan is to create something identical to an alliance, just under a different name. We'll
be meeting to discuss it next Friday. :distress:

Just thinking about all of those lives lost, and all of the people affected by gay teens committing suicide makes me want to cry.

(I hate to be "playing this card" twice, having mentioned the GSA thing much earlier in this thread.)

amber

10-14-2004, 12:55 AM

Yes, yes, and yes. All reason we're trying to find a way to weasel around my Catholic high school's inability to have a Gay/Straight Alliance. Our plan is to create something identical to an alliance, just under a different name. We'll be meeting to discuss it next Friday. :distress:
That's great that there are compassionate people in your school who know that something's wrong, and are willing to put something on the line to support what they think is right. Against school rules. It's too bad y'all have to get another name ooo, i just Dowloaded greatest hits of the Cars, and my favorite song finally came on! "I like the night life baybeh!" ok, anyways, sorry, i just realized i really liked the Cars, like 2 months ago...
Anyways. :thumbsup: to you
Amber

Johnny Stew

10-14-2004, 01:03 AM

Life gets screwy. Things change. I have found that I don't believe a relationship has to be "forever" to have value and depth. Whatever happens, happens. If I find another connection that can match those others, or exceed them....great. If not, I feel lucky to have experienced all that I have.

I'm still working on that. I made the penguin analogy earlier... mating for life.
I don't rush into things... it takes me a while for me to fall in love (though I can fall into infatuation pretty easily)... so when I give my heart to someone, I expect them not to ever break it.

I'm still naive in those regards. And, if the relationship doesn't work, it really affects me... especially the deeply serious ones.

My parents were high school sweethearts and have been married for 33 years, so I see them as sort of the benchmark for relationships (even though I'm very well aware, on an intellectual level, that they're a rarity). And it gets to me more than it should, when a relationship doesn't work. THAT is when my pessimistic side emerges, and I start thinking that I'll never be lucky enough to find someone like that again, and I'll never feel that way for someone again, yadda-yadda-yadda.

So I'm still learning (I've only been out of the closet for about 5 years, and have only had a very small amount of relationships)... and I'm working on being more accepting of the relationships that, despite our hopes and wishes that they'll last, have only a finite life.

Johnny Stew

10-14-2004, 01:07 AM

Yes, yes, and yes. All reasons we're trying to find a way to weasel around my Catholic high school's inability to have a Gay/Straight Alliance. Our plan is to create something identical to an alliance, just under a different name. We'll
be meeting to discuss it next Friday. :distress:

Just thinking about all of those lives lost, and all of the people affected by gay teens committing suicide makes me want to cry.

I think it's a really great thing you and your friends are doing, in trying to create this group.

I know it's a somewhat corny name, but how about something like the "Compassion Alliance"? I can't imagine a Catholic school arguing over something with the word "compassion" in it.

takenbythesky

10-14-2004, 01:08 AM

I think it's a really great thing you and your friends are doing, in trying to create this group.

I know it's a somewhat corny name, but how about something like the "Compassion Alliance"? I can't imagine a Catholic school arguing over something with the word "compassion" in it.

:D That's a GREAT idea! Thank you!!!

amber

10-14-2004, 01:14 AM

I'm still working on that. I made the penguin analogy earlier... mating for life.
I don't rush into things... it takes me a while for me to fall in love (though I can fall into infatuation pretty easily)... so when I give my heart to someone, I expect them not to ever break it.

Omigod, Compassion Alliance! It's perfect! *gush*
Anyway, about you're above post, be careful sweetie, cause the love of your life will break you heart many times over (hopefully small ways) but that's why they're the most able to break your heart - because they're the love of your life..And sadly, you may break theirs, probably will. But you'll also bring each other the most joy.

takenbythesky

10-14-2004, 01:19 AM

Wow...Just thinking about how so many Fleetwood Mac or Stevie Nicks songs can be related to the difficult situation you're going through, Johnny Stew. (For me, in my teenage years, it's been easiest to express myself and my sorrows through their lyrics...To apply the songs to situations in my own life.)

"Heartbreak of the moment is not endless/Fortune is your life's love."

Johnny Stew

10-14-2004, 01:23 AM

Anyway, about you're above post, be careful sweetie, cause the love of your life will break you heart many times over (hopefully small ways) but that's why they're the most able to break your heart - because they're the love of your life..And sadly, you may break theirs, probably will. But you'll also bring each other the most joy.

Very sound advice. :)

Oddly enough, despite my penchant for being a completely hopeless romantic, I don't expect a relationship to be textbook perfect.
I expect to disagree and sometimes argue and sometimes be annoyed with each other... all of that stuff is part of the give and take of ALL relationships.

I just expect the love of my life to stay around. Me and him against the world.... *sigh*

One of my favorite songs:

"No Matter What"
(lyrics by Jim Steinman, music by Andrew Lloyd Webber)

No matter what they tell us, no matter what they do
No matter what they teach us, what we believe is true

No matter what they call us, however they attack
No matter where they take us, we'll find our own way back

I can't deny what I believe, I can't be what I'm not
I know I'll love forever
I know, no matter what

If only tears were laughter, if only night was day
If only prayers were answered then we would hear God say:

"No matter what they tell you, no matter what they do
No matter what they teach you, what you believe is true"

And I will keep you safe and strong and sheltered from the storm
No matter where it's barren, a dream is being born....

No matter who they follow, no matter where they lead
No matter how they judge us, I'll be everyone you need

No matter if the sun don't shine or if the skies are blue
No matter what the ending, my life began with you

I can't deny what I believe, I can't be what I'm not
I know this love's forever
I know, no matter what

I can't deny what I believe, I can't be what I'm not
I know this love's forever
That's all what matters now, no matter what