The Official Presidential debate thread

[greatdarkwing]

Well, since I go to the Univeristy of Miami, I figured it would be only right that I start the thread for the first debate :D . Things on campus are crazy right now. All the news stations (local and national) have set up shop ALL OVER campus, and it is all one big mess. By 9 AM there is no partking anywhere to be found. This has to do with the parking lots that were closed for security reasons. Its actually a real exciting atmosphere though. The air smells of politics and I love it...

Just wanted to share...

BTW, I have a feeling this thread will reach gigantic proportions in the coming days :laugh:

~Alex

[greatdarkwing]

Oh, and I will be watching the debate from a Republican party with spoecial guests Tommy Franks, Jenna and Barbra Bush, Guiliani, Ann Coulter, and Dissention ( :laugh: ). I'll lket you guys know how that goes too, even though most of you will verbally incinerate me :xoxo:

~Alex

[DeeGeMe]

Get this--Fox will be operating the cameras for this debate.

[greatdarkwing]

Get this--Fox will be operating the cameras for this debate.

No better network to handle the task :nod: :thumbsup:

~Alex

[dissention]

Oh, and I will be watching the debate from a Republican party with spoecial guests Tommy Franks

Senile old fool. Was rarely even told what was going on in Iraq...and rarely asked.

Jenna and Barbra Bush

Verbally-challenged drunks with no manners.

Guiliani

Exploits 9/11 for political gain, both for him and Bush. Opposes free speech and helped the NYPD in covering up murders.

Ann Coulter

A liar and a fraud. Is having a torrid affair with Sean Hannity. Large Adams Apple leads me to believe that she is a transexual, or an unconvincing transvestite.

and Dissention ( :laugh: ).

Glad to know you have at least one sane truth-teller in the bunch. Otherwise, the toxicity would kill you.

I'll lket you guys know how that goes too, even though most of you will verbally incinerate me :xoxo:

I think any Bush supporter has it coming to them. And they call us the ideologues. Ha. :laugh:

Oh, and you're only missing O'Lielly. You could have asked him how his latest porn novel was coming!

[dissention]

Get this--Fox will be operating the cameras for this debate.

AND - there will be a ten second delay in the feed. :eek:

[strandinthewind]

Networks balk at Bush-Kerry debate agreement
Several indicate they will not be bound by limits on cameras



(CNN) -- Although the Bush and Kerry camps have meticulously crafted an agreement on the rules for this year's presidential debates, the television networks broadcasting them refuse to go along with the plans.

Specifically, the networks object to provisions in the agreement that place limits on their cameras, including prohibitions on shots of one candidate while the other is answering questions.

"Because of journalistic standards, we're not going to follow outside restrictions," said Paul Schur, a spokesman for Fox News, which is manning the pool camera for the first debate Thursday in Miami, Florida.

"This is a news pool, and we are not subject to agreements between candidates," NBC News spokeswoman Barbara Levin said. "We will use pictures as we see fit."

CNN spokesman Matthew Furman said the network "reserves the right to make our own decisions about coverage during the debate, just as we always have."

ABC News and CBS News are also objecting to the limits, with a CBS spokeswoman insisting that "we will utilize any shots the pool makes available."

Also, at least two of the television journalists chosen to moderate the debates -- ABC's Charles Gibson and CBS's Bob Schieffer -- have not signed the agreement on ground rules hammered out between the two campaigns, according to their networks.

The other two moderators are Gwen Ifill and Jim Lehrer, both of PBS, which has not yet commented.

Under terms of the agreement reached last week between the Bush and Kerry campaigns after lengthy negotiations, moderators who refuse to sign the document can be replaced.

The 32-page agreement sets out the rules for the debates with great specificity, down to details such as the temperature of the hall, what kind of paper can be used to take notes and who can stand in the wings.

Monday, the Commission on Presidential Debates, the independent group that plays host to the debates, said it would agree to enforce the rules reached in the agreement between the Bush and Kerry campaigns and that there "will be no departure from the terms" unless there is "prior consultation with, and approval by, the appropriate campaign representatives."

However, the commission did not formally sign the agreement, and its co-chairman, Frank Fahrenkopf, told The New York Times that the restrictions on what the networks can show are unenforceable.

"We don't control the feed, so we don't know what the networks are going to show," said Fahrenkopf, a former chairman of the Republican National Committee. "That's not within our purview."

The New York Times also reported that the commission may balk at a provision in the agreement setting out the make-up of the audience for the town hall debate between Bush and Kerry on October 8 in St. Louis, Missouri.

The campaigns agreed that the audience would be divided between people leaning toward Bush and those leaning toward Kerry. The debate commission wants the hall full of undecided voters in neither camp.

Under terms of their agreement, either the Bush or Kerry campaigns could opt out of the debates, or seek another sponsor, if the commission does not sign on to their terms. There is no indication either camp is contemplating such a move.

The document does not address what might happen if the television networks refuse to abide by the rules.

Responding to the media's recalcitrance, Kerry campaign spokeswoman Christine Anderson said "every time you have something like this, there are going to be small details to be worked out. They are being worked out."

The Bush campaign declined to comment directly on the networks' objections. However, spokesman Scott Stanzel described the president's camp as "looking forward to all of the debates."

"We are pleased the commission said they would follow the terms of the agreement of the campaigns," he said.

The debate commission has not commented on the media's objections to the rules.


Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/28/debates.television/index.html

[dissention]

No better network to handle the task :nod: :thumbsup:

~Alex

C'mon, you don't honestly believe that. Buy Outfoxed, man. The facts in that film cannot be refuted.

[strandinthewind]

C'mon, you don't honestly believe that. Buy Outfoxed, man. The facts in that film cannot be refuted.

Perhaps true, but with the CBS scandal, it appears CBS is biased the other way. So, yin and yang to me!!!!! :cool:

[dissention]

Also, at least two of the television journalists chosen to moderate the debates -- ABC's Charles Gibson and CBS's Bob Schieffer -- have not signed the agreement on ground rules hammered out between the two campaigns, according to their networks.

I would have preferred Diane Sawyer. Or even Cynthia McFadden (I've had a crush on her for years :eek: ).

[strandinthewind]

I would have preferred Diane Sawyer. Or even Cynthia McFadden (I've had a crush on her for years :eek: ).

I really like Cynthia - she has a very nice way about her, her cadence, manner, effect, etc.

As for Diane - she is okay, but can you say the Michael Jackson interview :laugh:

[greatdarkwing]

Oh, and you're only missing O'Lielly. You could have asked him how his latest porn novel was coming!

He tells me your signed copy is in the mail...LOL! :D

~Alex

[dissention]

Perhaps true, but with the CBS scandal, it appears CBS is biased the other way. So, yin and yang to me!!!!! :cool:

No way. I will not even attempt to dissect the CBS controversy because they were completely wrong, but there are no media watchdog reports from before the document scandal that suggests that they were liberally biased in the past year.

Faux is GOP swill, always has been.

[dissention]

He tells me your signed copy is in the mail...LOL! :D

~Alex

Along with Lynne Cheney's latest lesbian opus. :rolleyes: :xoxo:

Such hypocrites.

[greatdarkwing]

A liar and a fraud. Is having a torrid affair with Sean Hannity. Large Adams Apple leads me to believe that she is a transexual, or an unconvincing transvestite.





ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[dissention]

I really like Cynthia - she has a very nice way about her, her cadence, manner, effect, etc.

As for Diane - she is okay, but can you say the Michael Jackson interview :laugh:

I just can't stand Gibson. He makes me nervous with all that shaking he does. :nod:

[GateandGarden]

As for Diane - she is okay, but can you say the Michael Jackson interview :laugh:And how about that Dixie Chicks interview?

Hillary

[greatdarkwing]

Along with Lynne Cheney's latest lesbian opus.

Hey, if that does it for you :laugh:

~Alex

[greatdarkwing]

You know, theres a fairly good possibility this thread could reach 10 pages before the debate tomorrow...

~Alex

[strandinthewind]

No way. I will not even attempt to dissect the CBS controversy because they were completely wrong, but there are no media watchdog reports from before the document scandal that suggests that they were liberally biased in the past year.

Faux is GOP swill, always has been.

True, but the producer (a big wig at the network) has according to all sources never been shy about making it obvious she wanted to take Bush out. And - Rather has yet to admit the doc.'s were frauds and contained fraudulent information. He just said he was sorry they used them without validating them (I mean really).

So, yes, CBS was not invented to be the liberal mouthpeice a la Fox News (conservatism) - but clearly CBS is just that.

So, the beat goes on :laugh:

[greatdarkwing]

True, but the producer (a big wig at the network) has according to all sources never been shy about making it obvious she wanted to take Bush out. And - Rather has yet to admit the doc.'s were frauds and contained fraudulent information. He just said he was sorry they used them without validating them (I mean really).



Yes, but for some people denile is not just a river in Africa...

~Alex

[strandinthewind]

Alex - this could beat that 20+ pager we had about a year ago AND it is on the same topic!!!! :cool:

[greatdarkwing]

Alex - this could beat that 20+ pager we had about a year ago AND it is on the same topic!!!! :cool:

OMG! Remember that one?! lol!!!!

Serious nostalgia here!

~Alex

[dissention]

True, but the producer (a big wig at the network) has according to all sources never been shy about making it obvious she wanted to take Bush out. And - Rather has yet to admit the doc.'s were frauds and contained fraudulent information. He just said he was sorry they used them without validating them (I mean really).

A producer for 60 Minutes II does not a big-wig make. I think what you meant to say was that she was a big-wig when it came to that particular program, not the whole news faction of the network. ;)

Roger Ailes does not hide his conservatism.
Ted Turner did not hide his liberalism.
Why should this producer for 60 Minutes II hide her political leanings? The majority of TV news people do not hide their beliefs from the public, Jason. You're going to ahve to explain to me what the big deal is over this particular producer. Yes, she was wrong in pushing a story simply because it would make Bush look bad. But that's it. Show me other 60 Minutes II segments she produced that were liberally biased. The pundits and investigators haven't found any so far. :shrug:

So, yes, CBS was not invented to be the liberal mouthpeice a la Fox News (conservatism) - but clearly CBS is just that.

Hardly. One producer for 60 Minutes II does not make CBS a liberal mouthpiece. Again, show me the studies that suggest CBS was a liberal mouthpiece before this scandal. I submit you cannot and you know this.

[dissention]

Yes, but for some people denile is not just a river in Africa...

~Alex

You, as a Republican, should know. :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

My whole thing with CBS is, unlike the people you mentioned, they are claiming to be unbiased. When Fox does it, people scream BS. So, I think after this, when CBS does, it is the same BS. Again, Rather has not denied the information in the document, which I just cannot believe and for which there is no rationale explanation IMO :shrug: Moreover, they have not fired that big wig (all reports I read suggest she is a high level person). I mean she called the Kery campaign and alerted them to this source and did so in an effort to help get another reluctant source to come forward and provide different information. I do not think she extended the Bush campaign the same courtesy and let them know what she was using her network to do. Then, the only reason CBS fessed up is the other networks crucified them. Are we really expected to believe CBS "suddenly" discovered the questionable integrity of these docs, which Rather, again, has yet to denounce as fraudulent, despite almost all experts agreement that they are. So, to me, that screams bias!!!!!!

So, I am just saying that both networks are guilty of the same thing in my eyes. Does Fox do it more? Probably - who can say for sure IMO. But, CBS can really no longer claim it does not at all - at least not as long as those two are still there. But, I suppose people will see it differently and I really do not want to get into it for the next five pages :laugh: because I am never gonna change my mind, etc. :cool:

[dissention]

My whole thing with CBS is, unlike the people you mentioned, they are claiming to be unbiased. When Fox does it, people scream BS. So, I think after this, when CBS does, it is the same BS. Again, Rather has not denied the information in the document, which I just cannot believe and for which there is no rationale explanation IMO :shrug: Moreover, they have not fired that big wig (all reports I read suggest she is a high level person). I mean she called the Kery campaign and alerted them to this source and did so in an effort to help get another reluctant source to come forward and provide different information. I do not think she extended the Bush campaign the same courtesy and let them know what she was using her network to do. Then, the only reason CBS fessed up is the other networks crucified them. Are we really expected to believe CBS "suddenly" discovered the questionable integrity of these docs, which Rather, again, has yet to denounce as fraudulent, despite almost all experts agreement that they are. So, to me, that screams bias!!!!!!

So, I am just saying that both networks are guilty of the same thing in my eyes. Does Fox do it more? Probably - who can say for sure IMO. But, CBS can really no longer claim it does not at all - at least not as long as those two are still there. But, I suppose people will see it differently and I really do not want to get into it for the next five pages :laugh: because I am never gonna change my mind, etc. :cool:

But I find fault with your whole premise. She was not a high-level person in CBS News. One rogue producer for a rather lowly rated show does not speak for the entire CBS news organization. It's as simple as that. There is a clear distinction between what that one producer did and what Faux News does. CBS does not send out memos that instruct their staff on how to make a candidate look bad. Faux does. The list goes on, Jason. While I am with you in that what this producer did was abhorrable and completely undermines the profession of journalism, I don't think you can even begin to make such sweeping generalizations about CBS like "They're a liberal mouthpiece." The evidence does not support that conclusion. What does it support? That this one producer for 60 Minutes II decided to greenlight a suspect story in order to make Bush look bad, thereby making 60 Minutes II her liberal mouthpiece. That's it.

The Bush campaign was called about the story and refused to comment; this comes from Scott McClellan's own mouth. Personally, I don't give a **** whether Bush or Kerry was called first. The Kerry campaign didn't want anything to do with it when they were called about it. Again, they were called by the staff of Sixty Minutes II under the direction of the producer. Why has Rather not denounced the content of the documents? Because the while the documents were unverified and probably fakes, numerous sources have corroborated the content of them.

So, while I agree that there was a bias, it was on the part of the producer of the segment, not the institution that is CBS News. To say that there was is ridiculous and unsupported in reality. CBS News, up until this scandal, was the ONLY news organization that was truly doing a decent job in covering the news, along with the WaPo.

[estranged4life]

I will be missing it since it is scheduled during the ONLY TV time I seem to enjoy these days (South Park). Maybe I could record it with my new DVD burner, But nahh...The burner is for music trading purposes only!

Btw, The Oklahoma Democratic US Senate candidate Brad Carson is pulling way ahead in the latest polls over Repub Tom Coburn (Which could be major since this election could give the Demos control of the US Senate)...Kinda funny, But Coburn is going to lose for only one reason, He's from Muskogee...Hehehehe, Nuff said (I grew up there...We OKIES are ALL LOSERS!!!)

Hell, Even Kerry-Munster has reduce the 40% gap to a mere 31% with Shrub within a weeks time.

Brian j.

[gldstwmn]

Perhaps true, but with the CBS scandal, it appears CBS is biased the other way. So, yin and yang to me!!!!! :cool:

Well...

http://www.fair.org/activism/cbs-niger.html

ACTION ALERT:
60 Minutes: Shelving a Story to Boost Bush?
CBS puts Niger expose on hold as boss endorses Republicans

September 28, 2004

In an outrageous politicization of journalism, CBS announced it would not air a report on forged documents that the Bush administration used to sell the Iraq war until after the November 2 election (New York Times, 9/25/04). A network spokesperson issued a statement declaring, "We now believe it would be inappropriate to air the report so close to the presidential election."

The 60 Minutes segment was ready to air on September 8, but was bumped in favor of the now infamous report that relied on supposed National Guard memos whose authenticity CBS now says it cannot confirm. The furor over the Guard memos has created a situation where CBS executives say "the network can now not credibly air a report questioning how the Bush administration could have gotten taken in by phony documents" (Newsweek online, 9/22/04).

Of course, what's really inappropriate here is CBS allowing its PR problems to suppress a news report on an important issue until after it no longer matters. The shelved 60 Minutes story deals with the origins of documents purportedly showing that Iraq under Saddam Hussein tried to obtain uranium from Niger-- documents that turned out to be forgeries. The story, according to the Newsweek online report, asks "tough questions about how the White House came to embrace the fraudulent documents and why administration officials chose to include a 16-word reference to the questionable uranium purchase in President Bush's 2003 State of the Union speech."

Though such questions are clearly relevant to a presidential campaign that largely revolves around Bush's decision to invade Iraq, CBS intends to keep the answers to itself until the election has passed. Could there be more than the embarrassment over the Guard story behind this decision?

Sumner Redstone, CEO of CBS's parent company Viacom, made an unusual political statement at a gathering of corporate leaders in Hong Kong (Asian Wall Street Journal, 9/24/04):

"I don't want to denigrate Kerry... but from a Viacom standpoint, the election of a Republican administration is a better deal. Because the Republican administration has stood for many things we believe in, deregulation and so on. The Democrats are not bad people.... But from a Viacom standpoint, we believe the election of a Republican administration is better for our company."
Redstone repeated these sentiments in an interview with Time (10/4/04):

"There has been comment upon my contribution to Democrats like Senator Kerry. Senator Kerry is a good man. I've known him for many years. But it happens that I vote for Viacom. Viacom is my life, and I do believe that a Republican administration is better for media companies than a Democratic one."
According to a write-up by Forbes (9/23/04)-- the sponsor of the conference where Redstone issued his endorsement of Bush-- the CEO asserted that "he never gets involved in any aspects of the network's news coverage." But that claim, hard to believe when made by any media industry chief executive, seems particularly dubious given Forbes' report that ''Redstone said he has been talking daily to top CBS officials and to Viacom board members about the controversy'' over the Guard memos.

It is journalistically indefensible for CBS to withhold a story due to embarrassment incurred by another, unrelated piece. It is particularly unacceptable when the shelving of a story benefits a candidate that CBS's boss has just publicly endorsed. If CBS wants to restore trust in its news judgment, it can begin by applying journalistic standards, not political calculations, to the decision on when to air its report on the origin of the forged Niger documents.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[strandinthewind]

Just more proof that CBS is run by dishonest people - IMO.

I mean if "they" had gotten away with the forged and fraudulent docs. they got busted on, they would be running these other stories in a second. So, this is damage control. Of course, CBS could have been relying on unauthenticated docs. in these stories too :eek: :laugh:

Thus, I reiterate that I get that it was one person and the HEAD of CBS news :rolleyes: - but I say where there is smoke there is fire and CBS should go down for this. But, others disagree - HOW I will never know :laugh: :p :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

Campaigns spin debate advantage
Will viewers see 'the heart and soul of the candidates'?



(CNN) -- As the much-anticipated first debate between the presidential candidates nears, the spin machines for both campaigns are working overtime, claiming that their man has an advantage going into the face-off.

"We feel like we're in a good position in this debate ... because the president knows what he thinks, why he thinks the way that he does, what he wants to do in the future, where he wants to lead the nation, and that stands in stark contrast to his opponent," said Mary Matalin, an adviser to President Bush's campaign.

Staffers in Sen. John Kerry's campaign said the Democrat's position -- currently behind in the polls -- is actually a good way to enter such a forum.

"I think it is always good to go into one of these high-profile debates as an underdog," said Kerry spokesman Mike McCurry.

"At the end, the important thing is you strip away all the negativity from the debate ... and you really get to look into the heart and soul of the candidates and say who really is going to get us to where we need to be as a nation and where are we going to be in the world at the end of the next four years after this president serves."

In recent days, both sides have also been careful to praise their opponents as skilled in the art of debating. (Special Report: America Votes 2004)

Joe Lockhart, a senior adviser to Kerry, said Bush has won every debate in which he has participated.

"Debates, in the modern political system, are not won by the person who knows the most information; they're won by the person who is most persuasive for their position," Lockhart said. "And George Bush has proven time and time again that he is a very persuasive debater. It does, of course, seem at times like he doesn't have all the facts straight, but he seems to do it in a way that gives you a sense of commitment and a sense of what direction he wants to go." (Stakes high heading into debates)

Dan Bartlett, White House communications director, emphasized Monday that Kerry is a skilled debater, pointing to the seven "epic debates" he had in 1996 with then-Gov. Bill Weld in the U.S. Senate race in Massachusetts.

The Democrat was an all-star debater in college and has honed his skills during 20 years in the Senate, Bartlett said.

The debates are considered a crucial point in what has been a lengthy campaign. A CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll released Monday showed that 18 percent of registered voters said the three debates would make a difference when they decided for whom they would cast their ballot in November. (Poll suggests Bush lead)

Kerry traveled Wednesday to Fort Lauderdale, Florida, from Spring Green, Wisconsin, where he had been preparing for the debate. (Authorities warn of possible debate threats)

"He is focused; he is totally focused on this preparation and on this debate," said senior adviser Susan Rice on CNN. "It is an opportunity for the American people to see that he is a strong, smart, tough leader."

President Bush, who had been getting ready for the debate at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, flew to Florida on Wednesday and toured a hurricane-damaged citrus grove there. He plans to tour more storm damage Thursday.

The two men will come face-to-face under highly orchestrated rules at the University of Miami in Coral Gables, Florida, on Thursday for the first debate, which begins at 9 p.m. ET.

A 32-page agreement reached last week between the two campaigns sets out the rules for the debates with great specificity, down to details such as the temperature of the hall, what kind of paper can be used to take notes and who can be standing in the wings backstage. (Networks balk at debate agreement)

No matter the rules, Matalin said, and no matter how great a debater Kerry is, the senator "will be disadvantaged in the debate."

"The problem for Senator Kerry is that he, his record and his campaign has been inconsistent ... and the challenge for Senator Kerry at this debate is to bring some clarity to his massive vacillation throughout this campaign, particularly on the issues most important to Americans, that is national security," she said. "He has been all over the board, I think he has 10 distinct positions on Iraq."

McCurry said the debate is an opportunity for the president to finally respond to some tough questions about the situation in Iraq.

"President Bush knows what he needs to do tomorrow night, but you know he probably won't do it, and what he really needs to do is answer questions that the American people have about where he would lead us in Iraq (and) how we deal with the consequences of his very wrong choices," he said on CNN's "American Morning."

A second debate will be October 8 at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri, and a third is scheduled for October 13 at Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona.

A vice presidential debate will be October 5 at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio.

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/30/debate.main/index.html

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I will be leaving class 15 mins early tonight just so I can make it home in time for the debate..This is the most exciting part of a presidential campaign IMO...Sure I know I know, it's not a "REAL DEBATE." Afterall they aren't supposed to address eachother at all...but it is always interesting, no matter the rules, to see these two mean--who have BASICALLY been talking behind eachothers' backs for months and months now--IN THE SAME ROOM, WITHIN FEET APART! It's a little harder to say something about someone if they are standing right next to you..
George Bush is a good debater...He knows how to win the people over, even without having much facts...someone said in Rolling Stone recently, people like Bush "because he's someone you would want to invite over for a BBQ, but shouldnt you hold the office of President to higher standards than someone who you would enjoy having a BBQ with?"
People like Bush often because he seems "normal" to them..."just like one of us." Kerry has a chance to prove himself, defend his record when questioned (because the problem with him is ,while he has a strong record---it has just been distorted, and it takes him 10 mins to defend it)--they dont have that long to talk on each mini-subject. I expect George to be basically the same as he was in 2000, smirking, giggling, being kind of condescending...but Kerry is no Al Gore, he is a much better debator..unfortunately I think in order for Kerry to be called the "winner" of this debate, he will have to dumb down what he says a lot...Lets face it, the average American voter could care less about all the figures, and the lengthy speeches...he needs to tell Bush how it is (even though he cant talk to Bush, he can say "My opponent needs to realize..." etc)...he needs to look strong..it will be fun to watch..cant wait!

[Nixxxed]

Has any of the networks announced that they are going against the "TV rules" for broadcasting the debates? I know Fox is running the pool cameras, but several networks have said they didn't like the setup of the rules and were planning to use the feed any way they saw fit...

Just trying to find out ahead of time so I don't miss something flipping around!

[gldstwmn]

Has any of the networks announced that they are going against the "TV rules" for broadcasting the debates? I know Fox is running the pool cameras, but several networks have said they didn't like the setup of the rules and were planning to use the feed any way they saw fit...

Just trying to find out ahead of time so I don't miss something flipping around!

Rumor has it that they are going to show the reaction shots. We'll see. I'll be flipping around.

[gldstwmn]

Yo Nixxxed! CNN is breaking protocol with the camera shots! :]

[gldstwmn]

Split screen on C-SPAN. Smirky is on the ropes! :woohoo:

[Nixxxed]

ABC is split-screening too, and I've never seen Shrub look so uncomfortable or stammer so much (and that is really saying something).

Good think I prayed really hard today to send Kerry strength! I think he's doing great! :blob1:

[heyjupiter678]

Split screen on C-SPAN. Smirky is on the ropes! :woohoo:
:nod: He looks like a 5 year old who's being reprimanded.

[amber]

Omigod, it's 7:oo here, i just turned it on, and bush appears to be sweating, Kerry just mentioned his daughters, and the leash...and then "learn new facts, put them to use...Bush not acknowledging the truth of the facts - stem cell, iraq..." OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHYEAHHHHH! It's perfect!
okay, then bush says "i will not change my morals for politics" yeah, cause you don't care about representing the people you govern... :rolleyes:
ok

[amber]

600 + tons of unsecured nuclear waste in Russia... :mad:
(kerry) - "this president has secured less nuclear waste, than ..." YEAH! KICK THE SH** OUT OF IT, KERRY!!!!WAAAAHHHOOOOOOO! (this is why i don't follow politics extremely closely...it gets me all worked up, i swear... :p )
ok

[estranged4life]

My TV is also showing a splitscreen:

Herman Munster on the left & a burning Shrub on the right...Bitchin'!!!!

Brian j.

[amber]

Omigod, then bush just counters with all the new weapons he's building!!! omigod, he's so lame, i can hardly stand to listen to him! The persecution complex, and the aggression in this guy, i swear... :( :mad:
ok
omigod, now he's saying what a proponent of checks and balances he is!!! :eek: this guys so full of doo he's like the people on the passion of the jew video!
ok

[estranged4life]

600 + tons of unsecured nuclear waste in Russia... :mad:
(kerry) - this president has secured less nuclear waste, than ...YEAH! KICK THE SH** OUT OF IT, KERRY!!!!WAAAAHHHOOOOOOO! (this is why i don't follow politics extremely closely...it gets me all worked up, i swear... :p )
ok

According to a news report I just saw there's a un-EXPLODED Hydrogen bomb somewhere off the East Coast in the ocean (I think the name of the place is Wassaw Bay)!!! A scientist believes he may have found it because of the HIGH radiation detection in the oceans current/eddys (I wonder about the other 18 MISSING nukes that were lost due to error/mishap!!!!)

Brian "And that's the ultimate sin..." j.

[amber]

According to a news report I just saw there's a un-EXPLODED Hydrogen bomb somewhere off the East Coast in the ocean (I think the name of the place is Wassaw Bay)!!! A scientist believes he may have found it because of the HIGH radiation detection in the oceans current/eddys (I wonder about the other 18 MISSING nukes that were lost due to error/mishap!!!!)


Brian "And that's the ultimate sin..." j.

OMIGOD, I KNOW, YOU'RE FREAKIN ME OUT :mad: :shocked: :( :(

Omigod, i totally believe it, and i've been watching the pbs shows here in the bay about all the sunken ships of the bay holding nuclear waste, and how they can't do anything but "containment" them, and did you know the rate of breast cancer on the women in Marin is like, triple the national average? and some researchers try to blame it on their wealthy lifestyle and consumption of shellfish, and high end fish (swordfish) and although that could be a factor, i don't think by any means it can be totally blamed... :mad:
ok, now they're talking about war record, which is somewhat meaninless to me, although i know it's not to other people and i totally respect that...but to talk about war records during the vietnam era?? pffft...it's so far down on the list for me, to a certain extent...what i look at more, is how much you tried to hide your sh***, and i think bush clearly loses in that respect...IMHO.
ok, town hall program with debate on the domestic issues? ok, i have movies to return, but i really want to see this...

[Nixxxed]

I've been flipping channels, and EVERYONE - even FOX - is scoring the win for KERRY!!!!

[amber]

I've been flipping channels, and EVERYONE - even FOX - is scoring the win for KERRY!!!!
YEEEEEESSSSSS! I think i'm gonna have to put on IKINW to celebrate :D
THWAPBOOMTHWAPBOOMTHAWAPPBOOOMDOWDOWDOWTHWAPBOOM
"this will be marked as the moment when john kerry was able to turn his campaign around...." :blob2: :blob1: :]

[Nixxxed]

YEEEEEESSSSSS! I think i'm gonna have to put on IKINW to celebrate :D


No way! The voices in my head just started singing "That's Enough For Me"!!!

Perhaps we should both buy lottery tickets ... signs are looking up!

[amber]

No way! The voices in my head just started singing "That's Enough For Me"!!!

Perhaps we should both buy lottery tickets ... signs are looking up!
Thanks for reminding me, and you are so right - and, as a song, i like TEFM better :laugh: :xoxo:

[Nixxxed]

I'm so glad this first round is over. I think I smoked an entire pack today, something I have never, ever done before -- I'm usually less than half a pack. Plus, I was in a grumpy, jittery mood.

Now, only 10 more minutes to see how Jon Stewart and The Daily Show make a blooper reel of Bush's grunts, smirks, and "there's-not-a-thought-in-my-brain" pauses where he's clearly stumbling for a word to mispronounce. :nod:

[ShangriLaTroubl]

i specifically flipped to FOX to see what they are saying..there is some criticism of Kerry, but everyone so far seems to agree he came out better in the end...and they have been quite critical of what Bush SHOULD have done and SHOULD have said...interesting

I think it went well..they seemed respectful of eachother's speaking...Bush seemed to get obviously annoyed quite a few times..there was the little 1 min compliment time, when they complimented eachother...Kerry stood strong on the issues..and told America precisely WHAT he will do differently

Chris

[amber]

I think it went well..they seemed respectful of eachother's speaking...
Chris
I agree, i enjoyed this suprising aspect. And yes, Bush was gritting his teeth a bit :D

[estranged4life]

Bush was gritting his teeth a bit :D

He needs more FIBER in his diet...Heh!

Brian j.

[amber]

I love how, just now, and ad for "TEAM AMERICA: WORLD POLICE" came on :laugh: (by creators o' south park)

[amber]

He needs more FIBER in his diet...Heh!

Brian j.
You'd think he'd have enough secret documents to swallow :shrug: :laugh:

[estranged4life]

You'd think he'd have enough secret documents to swallow :shrug: :laugh:

of Alfred E. Newman from the few times I saw him tonite (During commercial breaks of South Park), With a "What...Me worry" smugness.

I thought Munster/Kerry did very well...But I wonder, At the end when Mrs.Ketchup Munster & the First Lady Hit & Run Shrub shook hands & chatted shortly I wonder if they tried to talk each other in appearring on that crap-fest reality TV show "Wife Swap"...Hehehehehehe!!!

Brian "Munster 1 Shrub 0" j.

[gldstwmn]

I've been flipping channels, and EVERYONE - even FOX - is scoring the win for KERRY!!!!

Yeah baby! :thumbsup:

[amber]

of Alfred E. Newman from the few times I saw him tonite (During commercial breaks of South Park), With a "What...Me worry" smugness.

I thought Munster/Kerry did very well...But I wonder, At the end when Mrs.Ketchup Munster & the First Lady Hit & Run Shrub shook hands & chatted shortly I wonder if they tried to talk each other in appearring on that crap-fest reality TV show "Wife Swap"...Hehehehehehe!!!

Brian "Munster 1 Shrub 0" j.
:laugh: :laugh: oh, hell no! did you just say that?! :laugh:

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I do think I saw one of the Bush twins kinda snub Kerry, and he patted her on the back..she kind of gave him a weird look..look back if you taped it to see if you see what im talking about

Chris

[estranged4life]

:laugh: :laugh: oh, hell no! did you just say that?! :laugh:

"Stone Cold" Steve Austin once said "Oh Hell Yeah...."

Brian j.

[Nixxxed]

I do think I saw one of the Bush twins kinda snub Kerry, and he patted her on the back..she kind of gave him a weird look..look back if you taped it to see if you see what im talking about

Chris

They also snubbed Teresa. As the Kerrys were leaving, Teresa made a point to look directly at the brunette drunk (Barbara, I think) and say something to her. Barbara just kinda smirked and did a little wave.

I also thought it was interesting that both wives were wearing the same color, and strikingly similar outfits. Where's Mr. Blackwell when you need him? :lol:

Did you notice how quickly the Bushes left the stage, and that Kerry stayed after to soak in the applause coming from the crowd???

[gldstwmn]

They also snubbed Teresa. As the Kerrys were leaving, Teresa made a point to look directly at the brunette drunk (Barbara, I think) and say something to her. Barbara just kinda smirked and did a little wave.

I also thought it was interesting that both wives were wearing the same color, and strikingly similar outfits. Where's Mr. Blackwell when you need him? :lol:

Did you notice how quickly the Bushes left the stage, and that Kerry stayed after to soak in the applause coming from the crowd???

Did you love the daughter comments during the debate? And what was up with Teresa and Pickles wearing the same color? :shocked: :lol:

[amber]

Did you love the daughter comments during the debate? And what was up with Teresa and Pickles wearing the same color? :shocked: :lol:
:laugh: :nod: :nod: to refer back to pg. 3 "Omigod, it's 7o here, i just turned it on, and bush appears to be sweating, Kerry just mentioned his daughters, and the leash"

[estranged4life]

As the Kerrys were leaving, Teresa made a point to look directly at the brunette drunk (Barbara, I think) and say something to her. Barbara just kinda smirked and did a little wave.


The Heinz/Munster: "Wanna appear on "Wife Swap" with me Lad-y Bush???"

Hung-over Shrub: "As Soooooon as I soobbbbeeeerrrrr uuuppppp....Ourrrr hussssbbbannnndssss ssssssuuuuuccccckkkkk...."

Brian "Hehehehehe..." j.

[Nixxxed]

The Heinz/Munster: "Wanna appear on "Wife Swap" with me Lad-y Bush???"

Can you imagine Teresa disciplining the Bush Twins? That would be an episode to see!!!

I went to U of Texas and lived in Austin at the same time they were there, and believe me when I say that their intense bad behavior was NOTORIOUS about town. I was also there when Jenna got busted, and I swear I thought the town was going to hold parades out of sheer joy that she finally got into some trouble.

[Nixxxed]

Go vote for the debate winner:

www.cnn.com

hardball.msnbc.com

So far, Kerry is in the 70% range on both as the WINNER!!!

Notice I didn't include a Fox link -- that's because they don't have a voting feature set up. Gee, wonder why??? :p ;) :cool:

[GateandGarden]

then bush says "i will not change my morals for politics" yeah, cause you don't care about representing the people you govern... :rolleyes:
okI know! I know! I was thinking the exact same thing when he said that! :wavey:

Also, I just wanted to remind everyone not to forget Poland! :lol:

Hillary

[amber]

I know! I know! I was thinking the exact same thing when he said that! :wavey:

Also, I just wanted to remind everyone not to forget Poland! :lol:

Hillary
:laugh: :rolleyes:

[gldstwmn]

Also, I just wanted to remind everyone not to forget Poland! :lol:

Hillary

Bwah! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[greatdarkwing]

Even I shall admit Bush messed this up. Is it enough to push kerry on top? Probably not....what it will probably do is close the gap permanently and make the campaign closer than anyone could've imagined. Bush looked tired, and unenergetic, and just kept hammering away at the flip flop point making him seem redundant. I do feel that Bush beat Kerry a little bit more on substance. Style wise, Kerry won hands down. He came off looking very presidential, and even surprised me. The next 5 weeks will be the most interesting weeks of this campaign!

~Alex

[hayley]

I did a victory dance when Johnny hit on this:

But this issue of certainty. It's one thing to be certain, but you can be certain and be wrong.

It's another to be certain and be right, or to be certain and be moving in the right direction, or be certain about a principle and then learn new facts and take those new facts and put them to use in order to change and get your policy right.


Today I got so aggravated. My grandmother was having heart surgery, and an aunt and uncle I don't see often were with us waiting it out at the hospital, and the first thing they said to me after 'HI' was a comment about my flip-flops- "Look! She's wearing Kerry shoes!" GRAAAAAH. WTF?!

I cannot wait for the next two debates. And I really love Charlie Gibson for some strange reason, so I'm looking forward to his town hall debate.

[Patti]

"It's hard work". Geez Dubya, if you had a few more brain cells maybe it wouldn't be so hard!

I thought Kerry got off to a shaky start, but then he really found his stride. He looked presidential, he looked decisive and he looked INTELLIGENT. While Dubya just repeated himself and looked uncomfortable.

Some pundits earlier in the week were commenting that one of Bush's strengths was his ability to stay on message. I think that bit him in the ass last night. While trying to stay on message, he just kept repeating himself without anything substantive to say. Of course, he's so good at staying on message because he isn't intelligent enough to think for himself.

I hope this was enough for Kerry. I think at the very least, he has made it a real race.

[Vianna]

I could not stay up long enough to see the whole debate, since I get up at 5 AM. Did the two ever debate anything except the war?

I thought Kerry came across as poised and confident. Bush lacked that grace-he needed his speech writers!! (chuckle)

[strandinthewind]

Well, W has nothing he can talk about except a few points (Iraq is a mess, the economy is nowhere near where he promised it would be, we are in debt up to our eyeballs because fo the war he said would pay for itself, etc. ) and to make Kerry look bad by calling him a "flip flop" :shrug:

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Even I shall admit Bush messed this up. Is it enough to push kerry on top? Probably not....what it will probably do is close the gap permanently and make the campaign closer than anyone could've imagined. Bush looked tired, and unenergetic, and just kept hammering away at the flip flop point making him seem redundant. I do feel that Bush beat Kerry a little bit more on substance. Style wise, Kerry won hands down. He came off looking very presidential, and even surprised me. The next 5 weeks will be the most interesting weeks of this campaign!

~Alex


I agree with you mostly..although I beg to differ that Bush beat Kerry in substance..When Bush said something about Kerry, he backed his stances up with facts..Bush continued to hammer his old points as we knew he would...I was thinking that MAYBE Bush would own up to a little bit...It was interesting to hear his comments on the woman who lost a husband, and saying "knowing i put him in harms way.." I'm sure he has convictions about it...BUT that's no excuse, because he continues to do it.
I will give Bush credit on one thing..in the 2000 debate he had ONLY style and no substance, being President for four years, he has built up his knowledge somewhat....but Kerry being in the Senate for 20 yrs shined last night...didn't back down to Bush..and I think Kerry went away with substance as welll

Chris

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I could not stay up long enough to see the whole debate, since I get up at 5 AM. Did the two ever debate anything except the war?

I thought Kerry came across as poised and confident. Bush lacked that grace-he needed his speech writers!! (chuckle)


This debate was centered around the topic of Foreign policy and Homeland Security...the majority of the discussions being Iraq, some talk of N. Korea, Bush mentioned Libya, and there was a question about Russia and Putin. But yes it was a foreign policy debate

Chris

[strandinthewind]

Bush can stand on some firm ground in discussions about Iraq because the world thought SH had WMD and SH essentially in the very bitter end continuously violated the repeated calls by the UN to disarm or prove that he had. So, W has an argument SH was an unknown variable that after 9/11 (which SH had no part of) the US and the world could no longer allow to exist - the possible outcome was too risky. AND SH was terrorist and a bad guy in general - so the world is beter off without him. Kerry supported this point. If W stays closet to that point, Kerry cannot contradict him.

Where Kerry needs to take the conversation and to make another point, and he indeed made this point last night, was that foregoing postulate is true Mr. Pres., but the way you handled getting rid of the risky variable known as SH was filled with deceit, alienated the world who we need in the war on terror, has made the US heavily in debt, and caused the Middle East (and the world for that matter) to hate us even more - AND all of this loss was in vain because there were none of the WMD you said not only were there but you knew where they were AND perhaps delaying this war by six or so months could have revealed that SH had no WMD and thereby saved over 1,000 U.S. soldiers' lives, thousands of innocent Iraqi lives, the U.S. economy, and the reputation of the U.S. with the world. i wish Kerry would have put it like that and with vehemence.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Bush keeps saying "You voted based on the same intelligence I received."

Well, guess what Mr. President? The President, any president should be accountable for their actions in a war. He cannot just blame it on the intelligence...It was his duty and job as Commander in Chief to make sure absolutely that this "intelligence" was sound, fight for more intelligence, go to the UN with the specific intelligence and make sure that the intelligence he was acting on was sound. He did not do that. He can shift the blame all he wants, but when a war goes bad you cannot blame intelligence, you blame the Commander of the war. The one who initiated it. It's Bush's fault for acting out of haste, on intelligence that obviously was faulty..

Chris

[strandinthewind]

Here is Fox's take on the debate (note I find this fair and balanced - but take it for what you think it is worth :laugh: :cool: )

Both Claim Win; Polls Favor Kerry

Friday, October 01, 2004

CORAL GABLES, Fla. — After the first round of the 2004 presidential debates, surrogates for both President Bush (search) and Sen. John Kerry (search) came out to declare victory while post-debate "flash" polls gave the edge to the Democratic challenger.

First, from the Bush camp:

"What the American people will say is they saw tonight a president who is absolutely committed to keeping them safe," said Karen Hughes, a senior adviser to the Bush campaign. "Sen. Kerry, on the other hand, had one critical test tonight and that was to try to establish some credibility on the central issue, the war on Iraq, and he failed."

The Kerry camp, predictably, had a very different view:

"The story of the debate is the American people saw John Kerry as a man of resolve and consistency," said Joe Lockhart, a senior adviser to the Kerry campaign. "This is a president who has almost shirked the responsibility for anything that's gone wrong and he's spent four years saying 'it's not my fault.'"

Aides from both camps set up shop in Florida to retaliate against their opposing candidate's jabs, accusations and challenges, as well as to point out any gaffes or slip-ups their opponents may make. Known as "spin alley," it was this group of political operatives who helped funnel the post-debate messages to the American public.

The stated focus of the 90-minute debate was national security and homeland security. The military wars against Iraq and Afghanistan and the broader War on Terror were front and center. The underlying theme through it all was who will be the stronger commander in chief.

For a complete review of the night's debate, click here. To read a transcript of the debate or to watch the video, click here.

Flash Polls

Both CBS and ABC released quickie reaction polls. The CBS survey of 200 "fence sitters" showed 44 percent said Kerry won, 26 percent said Bush won and 30 percent said it was a tie. The ABC numbers were similar in that 45 percent gave the edge to Kerry while 36 chose Bush and 17 percent said it was a tie.

Stephanie Cutter, the Kerry campaign communications director, told FOX News that their internal flash polling showed Kerry's favorability going from 43 to 68 percent. The Kerry campaign usually doesn't release internal polls.

FOX News' political contributors largely agreed that Kerry came out ahead.

"There was a chance that the president would knock Kerry out of the race tonight. ... I think Kerry survived and I think he did pretty well tonight. Kerry was forceful and articulate," said William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard. "He did a pretty good job of making the case that the invasion of Iraq was wrong."

Click here for FOXNews.com's daily campaign journal, "Trail Tails."

Click here to see the candidates' positions on all the major issues of the campaign.

Mort Kondracke, co-host of FOX News' "The Beltway Boys," said he thought Bush started off strong by reminding viewers about how the world changed following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on America. But Kondracke said Bush began to stumble as Kerry stopped being nervous and became more forceful.

"The president sighed a lot in this debate and he seemed tired," Kondracke said.

Dick Morris, a FOX News analyst who once advised former President Bill Clinton, said Bush won on substance while Kerry did better on style.

"Bush was as unfocused, undisciplined, unenergetic ... as he was during the pre-primary debates in 2000," said Morris, a strong critic of Kerry's policy positions. The president was "superb" when he spoke about American casualties or the need to win the War on Terror, but "I got the feeling he was distracted, he didn't answer questions quickly, he stumbled all over himself."

Rating the Debaters

But Arizona Sen. John McCain (search), a Republican who's been campaigning for Bush, said the president showed his true colors and left no questions where he stands on the issues.

"Both of them, I thought they did well," McCain told FOX News. "The reason this president is popular is not because he's a complex individual. He's popular because you see a man whose committed to leading this country in the War on Terror.

"This is what's making the American people — in a time of great insecurity that we're in, have great strength ... and this image, I think, was reaffirmed in the eyes of the American people tonight."

Bush repeatedly pointed out that Kerry — despite his criticisms of the president's handling of Iraq — saw the same intelligence the White House did, pointing to Saddam Hussein as a threat. That helped lead Kerry to vote to authorize the president to go to war in Iraq — a war he now says was wrong. That, in part, is what has led the Bush-Cheney camp to say Kerry is inconsistent on issues he must not waver on if he wants to be an effective leader.

"Here's what's consistent," countered Sen. Bob Graham (search), D-Fla. "Sen. Kerry voted to authorize the war. He did so, based on intelligence that he was given, I was given, which said there were weapons of mass destruction, ready for imminent use, in Afghanistan — in Iraq. That was the threat that justified the war.

"Of course we've turned out there were no such weapons of mass destruction. Second, he did it with the understanding that George W. Bush was going to act like his father. When his father went to war against Iraq, in 1991, we had alliances, we had allies."

FOX News' Carl Cameron and J. Jennings Moss contributed to this report.

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,134165,00.html

[strandinthewind]

Bush keeps saying "You voted based on the same intelligence I received."

Well, guess what Mr. President? The President, any president should be accountable for their actions in a war. He cannot just blame it on the intelligence...It was his duty and job as Commander in Chief to make sure absolutely that this "intelligence" was sound, fight for more intelligence, go to the UN with the specific intelligence and make sure that the intelligence he was acting on was sound. He did not do that. He can shift the blame all he wants, but when a war goes bad you cannot blame intelligence, you blame the Commander of the war. The one who initiated it. It's Bush's fault for acting out of haste, on intelligence that obviously was faulty..

Chris

Not only that - but Kerry did not vote for all out war in any circumstance. He voted to allow the Pres. the power to go to war as a last resort, which the Pres. said he would do, etc. That is a big difference IMO. Of course, any idiot know W was going to war come hell or high water, so Kerry's argument is academic at best.

[Patti]

"The reason this president is popular is not because he's a complex individual."

This completely and utterly cracked me up!!!!

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Kerry probably didnt predict that Bush would go it BASICALLY alone...and allienate the world. Bush keeps touting this "coalition of the willing," and Kerry calls it "the coalition of the diminishing." But Kerry is right...423 Thailand troops withdrew early in August rather than Sept, there are only 10 troops from Norway there now, down from about 150... The Dominican Republican withdrew over 300 troops citing "growing domestic opposition" as their reason... This is hardly a coalition..and Bush knows that he just wont admit it. Nicaraqua has withdrawn 115 troops citing "lack of funding." Spain withdrew some 1400 troops...I wish Bush would stop calling this a "coalition" effort

Chris

[strandinthewind]

Wait until GB withdraws their troops, which it has somewhat threatened to do. I mean Blair took a beating for this and has apologized for the mistake :shrug:

[dissention]

Even I shall admit Bush messed this up. Is it enough to push kerry on top? Probably not....what it will probably do is close the gap permanently and make the campaign closer than anyone could've imagined. Bush looked tired, and unenergetic, and just kept hammering away at the flip flop point making him seem redundant. I do feel that Bush beat Kerry a little bit more on substance. Style wise, Kerry won hands down. He came off looking very presidential, and even surprised me. The next 5 weeks will be the most interesting weeks of this campaign!

~Alex

PUT THE BONG DOWN!

Bush beat Kerry on substance?! When he talked about nuCLEAR proliferation, Kerry killed Bush. When he talked about the $87 billion vote, he completely threw a kink into Bush's plans to hammer away at it and when he continued to do so, it came across as desperate and uninformed. When he talked about Afghanistan, Bush had nothing to counter with. When he talked about Halliburton, Bush didn't even respond! When Kerry used an anecdote about talking to soldiers who had just returned, Bush desperately jumpe don the bandwagon and talked about a soldiers widow. Desperate, desperate, desperate. When Kerry talked about bilateral talks with North Korea, he made Bush look like a fool. Bush harped on how China did NOT want bilateral talks, but that's an utter lie; they've been wanting bilateral talks for years. I thought Kerry sealed the deal when he admitted making a mistake about the $87 billion and then compared his mistake to Bush's mistake. I was on the edge of my seat. And when he said that just because the president says so it doesn't make it so? I almost **** myself! And Bush set himself up for defeat when he said that Iraq attacked us, there was no excuse for that. Bush beat Kerry on substance?! Get out!

As for style and articulation, need I even go there? Bush's major mistake was LEANING AGAINST THE PODIUM FOR THE FULL HOUR AND A HALF. Kerry, in contrast, NEVER leaned against it once. He stood up straight with perfect posture for the entire time and looked straight ahead. Bush cocked his head back and forth, Kerry didn't. Bush played with his pen, Kerry didn't. Bush played with his papers and shuffled them around, Kerry didn't. Bush rolled his eyes and made faces, Kerry didn't. Bush looked like he didn't even want to be there, Kerry was ready to debate. Bush stumbled on his words and took incredibly long pauses, Kerry didn't. Bush's red light was blinking mos tof the time before he shut up, Kerry made his case beofre the light even turned red most of the time. Bush smirked, Kerry didn't. Kerry had a sense of humor, Bush seemed to have lost his. Kerry seemed spontaneous, Bush seemed lost. Bush made a fool out of himself when he took a seven second pause and had to look at his paper to say "group of terraists." Bush failed to articulate his positions very well, or so says 60% of people in the new USA Today-Gallup poll. :xoxo:

I knwo you like Bush, but c'mon, admit that the guy bombed it. It was the poorest display I've ever seen by a presidential candidate, let alone an incumbent!

[cliffdweller]

I do think I saw one of the Bush twins kinda snub Kerry, and he patted her on the back..she kind of gave him a weird look..look back if you taped it to see if you see what im talking about

Chris

I saw that too!! Snobby little ingrates!

When Theresa Kerry walked over to Laura Bush I was fantasizing that she was going to push her stupid ass off the stage. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Diss - i agree - Kerry, as predicted, won it in all, hands down. I eman even if you take away the veracity of their arguments, Kerry had the better style. But, Gore won academically as well. So, we shall see!!!!!!!

But, the diff. between the Gore debate is W is having to defend a wrong decision and one which he cannot support. kerry at least could draw a disctinction even if it could be spun as flip flop, etc.

WAIT until the domestic policy debate. W promised millions of jobs that have not appeared.

[Vianna]

Bush keeps saying "You voted based on the same intelligence I received."

Well, guess what Mr. President? The President, any president should be accountable for their actions in a war. He cannot just blame it on the intelligence...It was his duty and job as Commander in Chief to make sure absolutely that this "intelligence" was sound

Right on! Couldn't agree more.

[cliffdweller]

And did anyone else notice the insincerity in Bush's demeanor when he started talking about his appreciation for the troops giving their lives to the war? What a joke that guy is! He has no respect for human life! I am so glad Kerry pounded it into the ground that sending people off to war to die should've been THE LAST RESORT!!

Oh, and can I get a shout out for Poland? :laugh: :lol: :laugh:

[cliffdweller]

I went to U of Texas and lived in Austin at the same time they were there, and believe me when I say that their intense bad behavior was NOTORIOUS about town. I was also there when Jenna got busted, and I swear I thought the town was going to hold parades out of sheer joy that she finally got into some trouble.

Jenna was one of my husband's students!! I think she transferred out, lazy little brat...

[heyjupiter678]

Bush made a fool out of himself when he took a seven second pause and had to look at his paper to say "group of terraists."
Actually, I believe it took him seven seconds to come up with the stunner "group of <i>folks</i>." I remember it because Jon Stewart made fun of him for it on the Daily Show last night. :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

I could not stay up long enough to see the whole debate, since I get up at 5 AM. Did the two ever debate anything except the war?



They spoke about North Korea and China. The upcoming debates will focus on domestic policy. :)

[gldstwmn]

WAIT until the domestic policy debate. W promised millions of jobs that have not appeared.

It will be a massacre. :nod:

[Nixxxed]

I'm such a dork.

[DeeGeMe]

You know how even a casual observer would know that Bush went down in flames last night? Because even Fox is calling this a TIE. Yeah--it was a tie alright--I saw Bush get tied up in his own tongue!

And what's really sad (and telling)--Foreign Policy is supposed to be the area that Bush "owns".

Kerry in a landslide.

[EnchantedSLN]

Kerry probably didnt predict that Bush would go it BASICALLY alone...and allienate the world.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/[email protected]/poland.jpg

:laugh: Yeah, he botched this one. Talk about poor debate composure... no wonder he wanted only single camera shots. As usual, Bush skirted the topic at hand for most of the night by falling back on invocations of patriotism and inconsistency claims. This debate (over homeland security and foreign policy - arenas in which Bush garners most of his support) was one of Kerry's biggest hurdles, I think. The upcoming debates on the economy and domestic policy should be even easier wins. Especially if they go anything like last night ;)

Mediator: Mr. President, how do you plan to get the American economy back on track in your second term?
Bush: Well, it's gonna be hard work. Creatin' jobs is hard work. Real hard work.

[Patti]

Mediator: Mr. President, how do you plan to get the American economy back on track in your second term?
Bush: Well, it's gonna be hard work. Creatin' jobs is hard work. Real hard work.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Tiff, this just cracked me up! I was so thoroughly annoyed last night with his repetitive use of the "hard work" phrase. This man is an embarrassment to the country.

[Nixxxed]

I'm such a dork -- I hardly slept all night 'cuz I was so excited that Kerry did well.

I really don't care who wins the spin game, because one important thing became clear from W's performance: he showed weakness involuntarily by body language and vocal flubs, and by not even trying to fend off some of Kerry's many many points. That's all it takes for the wolves to start circling and finish off the weakest of the pack.

Some of my fave Kerry points (from memory - yes, I tried my hardest to pay attention ;) ):

- 90% of Cargo containers not being inspected in the ports, and airplane cargo holds open to non-screened baggage

- Nuclear proliferation by N. Korea and Iran under BUSH's watch (his own "Axis of Evil" countries)

- Closing of US police and fire stations (FIRST RESPONDERS) in favor of new ones in Iraq

- Both the Iraq and US borders are basically open and a free-for-all for illegals (possibly terrorists) entering each country

- Bush sent US troops into harm's way without proper body armor or properly armored vehicles - causing the troops' families to buy it off eBay and send it their loved ones!!!


I thought Bush looked like an idiot by not responding to these, instead insisting on continuing with the "mixed message" talking point, especially when he F*CKED it up by saying "mexed missage".

And my favorite Kerry line, which I've now seen so many times on cable news show recaps that I can recite it from memory:

"I made a mistake in how I talk about the war. Bush made a mistake by invading Iraq. Which is worse???"

If you're a Democrat or a Kerry supporter, please help get this message out. Kerry has said repeatedly and consistently since that $87 billion supplemental vote that he didn't vote for it because of the way the Pres wanted to fund it, NOT because he didn't support the troops. There were TWO supplemental bills, one of which repealed part of Bush's tax cuts to pay for the war - and that's the one Kerry supported but which didn't get passed (or maybe even didn't make it out of committee to be voted on...) So, this "didn't support the troops" argument is moot.

Oh, and one more thing, about the N. Korea bilateral vs multi-lateral talks. Bush doesn't want bilateral talks, so does that mean he doesn't think the US is strong enough to convince N. Korea to give up its nuclear plans? If we're strong enough to go it alone with the Muslim world and bomb them at will, why do we need China and Russia and Japan and S. Korea when it comes to dealing with the Far East? We basically had a "bilateral" war with Iraq, so what's the difference? Why is he such a chicken**** when someone has REAL nu-cu-lar weapons as opposed to countries that have FAKE ones?

Talked about a MEXED MISSAGE!!!!!

[ShamHy89]

One of my personal favorite moments was Kerry quoting from George Sr.'s book because the President's reactions and facial expressions were fantastic. I watched C-Span for the split screen view and Bush looked both agitated and nervous. A woman called in later and noted that he drank three glasses of water and Kerry took one sip during the night.

I debate at the high school level and one of the mistakes that I feel really hurt Bush was the fact that his rebuttals and responses, while he made them seem urgent and pertinent, were in fact usually not relevant to Kerry's answer. Bush wasted his rebuttals and should have taken more notes on what to answer. The President sounded incredibly redundant, and when one takes into account the contentions of the debate, the composure of the speakers, and the way in which the opponents addressed the issues, it is clear to this debator Kerry came out on top last night.

Shamus

[gldstwmn]

One of my personal favorite moments was Kerry quoting from George Sr.'s book because the President's reactions and facial expressions were fantastic. I watched C-Span for the split screen view and Bush looked both agitated and nervous. A woman called in later and noted that he drank three glasses of water and Kerry took one sip during the night.
Shamus

Did you see dear leader trying to drink out of an empty glass last night? Priceless. :laugh:

[dissention]

One of my personal favorite moments was Kerry quoting from George Sr.'s book because the President's reactions and facial expressions were fantastic. I watched C-Span for the split screen view and Bush looked both agitated and nervous. A woman called in later and noted that he drank three glasses of water and Kerry took one sip during the night.

I debate at the high school level and one of the mistakes that I feel really hurt Bush was the fact that his rebuttals and responses, while he made them seem urgent and pertinent, were in fact usually not relevant to Kerry's answer. Bush wasted his rebuttals and should have taken more notes on what to answer. The President sounded incredibly redundant, and when one takes into account the contentions of the debate, the composure of the speakers, and the way in which the opponents addressed the issues, it is clear to this debator Kerry came out on top last night.

Shamus

The Princeton Review rated Shrub last night and said that he spoke at a sixth grade level. :lol:

[Nixxxed]

Send your thoughts to the news orgs to counter the Repug spin (this list copies from the Kerry Volunteer center):

CNN
(404) 827-1500

MSNBC
(212) 664-4444
Hardball with Chris Matthews: [email protected]

FOX
(212) 301-3000; 1-888-TELL-FOX
Hannity and Colmes: [email protected]
FOX Morning News: [email protected]

ABC
(212) 456-7777
Nightline: [email protected]

CBS
(212) 975-4321
CBS Evening News: [email protected]

NBC
(212) 664-4444
Nightly News: [email protected]
The Today Show: [email protected]

[Nixxxed]

Did you see dear leader trying to drink out of an empty glass last night? Priceless. :laugh:

You're kidding?!? Dammit, I missed that...

[amber]

The Princeton Review rated Shrub last night and said that he spoke at a sixth grade level. :lol:
Wow! that's a grade level higher than his actual intelligence..... :D
Amber

[dissention]

Wow! that's a grade level higher than his actual intelligence..... :D
Amber

And check out one of the latest polls, you'll **** yourself:

Uncommitted Voters Give Kerry Nod
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/01/opinion/polls/main646712.shtml

Uncommitted voters who watched Thursday night’s presidential debate said John Kerry won the debate against President Bush, and most of those voters improved their opinion about the Democratic candidate because of the debate, according to a CBS News poll.

Forty-three percent of the uncommitted debate-watchers picked Kerry as the winner, while 28 percent chose Mr. Bush. Another 29 percent said it was a tie.

Kerry also made significant inroads on ratings for his potential to handle Iraq and on likeability, two areas where he had been trailing Mr. Bush.

Immediately after the debate, CBS News interviewed a nationally representative sample of more than 200 debate watchers assembled by Knowledge Networks who were "uncommitted voters" – voters who are either undecided about who to vote for or who have a preference but say they could still change their minds.

WHO WON THE DEBATE
(Uncommitted Voters Who Watched Debate)
Kerry: 43%
Bush: 28%
Tie: 29%

More than half of the uncommitted voters said that their image of Kerry had changed for the better as a result. Just 14 percent said their opinion of Kerry had gotten worse, and one-third did not change their opinion.

THE DEBATE’S EFFECT ON OPINIONS OF THE CANDIDATES
(Uncommitted Voters Who Watched Debate)
BETTER:
Kerry: 53%
Bush: 22%
WORSE:
Kerry: 14%
Bush: 20%

Mr. Bush, on the other hand, saw very little improvement in his image. Twenty-two percent have improved their image of Mr. Bush as a result of the debate, but just as many said their views of the president are now worse than before.

On the issue of ability to handle Iraq, Kerry was the clear winner. He had a 38-point jump by this measure. A majority of the uncommitted viewers, 52 percent, said after the debate that Kerry had a clear plan for Iraq. Thirty-nine percent said this about Mr. Bush. Before the debate, few thought either had a clear plan for dealing with Iraq.

HAS A CLEAR PLAN FOR DEALING WITH SITUATION IN IRAQ:
(Uncommitted Voters Who Watched Debate)
KERRY
Yes
Pre Debate: 14%
Post Debate: 52%
BUSH
Yes
Pre Debate: 24%
Post Debate: 39%

The panel of uncommitted debate watchers evaluated the debate in real-time, marking favorable or unfavorable opinions of what they heard moment by moment.

Kerry's evaluations rose as he assailed the Bush administration's planning for the war and for asserting that the administration allowed 90 percent of the costs of the war to fall on the U.S. Kerry did especially well with women when he said that Mr. Bush had cut police at home while sending money to Iraq.

Both candidates made progress on the issue of protecting the U.S. from terrorist attacks. Sixty-one percent of these voters now trust Kerry; 64 percent trust Bush. Before the debate, these voters trusted Bush over Kerry on this issue by 51 percent to 46percent.

TRUST CANDIDATE TO PROTECT U.S. FROM TERRORISM:
(Uncommitted Voters Who Watched Debate)
KERRY
Yes
Pre Debate: 46%
Post Debate: 61%

VIEWS OF THE CANDIDATES
(Uncommitted Voters Who Watched Debate)

Is someone you would like personally
KERRY
Yes: 61%
No: 39%
BUSH
Yes: 56%
No: 43%

[gldstwmn]

You're kidding?!? Dammit, I missed that...

I'm hoping someone got a shot of that. If I see one, I'll post it. :)

[gldstwmn]

Talked about a MEXED MISSAGE!!!!!

Maybe he was just wishing he was back in Crawford and was hungry for some Tex MEX food. :lol:

[Nixxxed]

Maybe he was just wishing he was back in Crawford and was hungry for some Tex MEX food. :lol:

Good old Crawford, where the hometown newspaper endorsed JOHN KERRY...

[estranged4life]

(Uncommitted Voters Who Watched Debate)
Kerry: 43%
Bush: 28%
Tie: 29%



being that I fall into the uncommitted group...

Still havent decided even after watching a partial debate (South Park was on...Have my priorities, right!) though I think Shrub looked like a possum in front of a speeding car's headlight in the parts I did view.


Brian j.

[Nixxxed]

Check out the video "Bush's Faces of Frustration" that the DNC just posted. Hilarious!!! Now, we need someone to make a techno remix like the Dean Scream songs from this spring!

http://www.democrats.org/

I tried to post a direct link, but didn't work... It's the first thing on the page, you can't miss it!!!

By the way, Susan Estrich (sp?) said last night on Fox that the Dems have out-registered new voters in the swing states by 200%. Anyone else heard any info on this??? Very interesting...

[Hawkeye]

I was waiting for Kerry to just say after Bush said a speech:

Bush... You Ignorant Slut.

[amber]

I was waiting for Kerry to just say after Bush said a speech:

Bush... You Ignorant Slut.
:lol: :laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol: <====== here's me, right when i read this...
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
Amber

[Johnny Stew]

I couldn't believe how incredibly stupid Bushy appeared to be. The facial expressions were priceless. Angry little chimp.

Waging Bogus War In Iraq: $139 billion
U.S. Federal Deficit: $744 billion
Looking Like An Angry Little Chimp On National TV: Priceless

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041001/i/r1099765537.jpg

[strandinthewind]

please go to www.bettybowers.com and read her satire on the debate. SHE IS HYSTERICAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW - the whole site is a trip!!!!! :angel:

[Moony]

thanks for the link strand! I almost pissed myself at the Sassy-blonde comment :laugh: :laugh:

Remember Poland! :woohoo: