Rolling Stone: Stevie Nicks Sees Women's Rights Slipping

[redbird]

Gaga and Adele both have their contributions to the cause of individuality, but I would contend that they're not really breaking new ground. Gaga seems to me to deal in the same stock-in-trade as Madonna (catchy songs + controversial image), and I think Adele herself has said something to the effect of "I'm a pop star, I'm not really doing anything new". I will try and look for the quote although I doubt I'll be able to find it.

I think women have generally had it easier in pop music than in rock music. But I don't know if Stevie is referring to success in a given genre or if she's talking about being taken advantage of by labels. I do think that a lot of record execs and the like are men, though, and that inevitably tilts things in a given direction.

Generally I think Stevie has a pretty pessimistic view of the business today, and I'm not sure I agree with all of it, but I'm also nowhere near the industry myself and I also don't think one can conclude that she's blaming or condemning female artists. She's disappointed not to see more push back than what she wants to see, but she can't be feeling bad for anyone but the female artists themselves since they are the ones suffering from it. I see her being friendly or complementary in some way or other with so many younger women, Beyonce, Sheryl Crow, Carly Rae Jepsen of all people. I think in the controversy with Nicki Minaj (for which she apologized for her comments twds Minaj) she said that she was coming from a place of protectiveness of Mariah Carey. I dunno, I actually can't think of another woman of her generation who connects so positively with as many younger women, to be honest. It's to the point where I was actually shocked that she was so cold towards Lindsay Lohan, it didn't seem like her MO.

And there's a huge difference between saying women have to be like one of the guys and women can't be like one of the guys. I think it's obvious which one is the issue here. Being like one of the guys helps women be taken more seriously, which is wrong. That doesn't make it wrong for a woman to be like one of the guys. That shouldn't need spelling out.

[elle]

Originally Posted by redbird

I do think that a lot of record execs and the like are men, though, and that inevitably tilts things in a given direction.

there's a job for Stevie then if she wants to fight for women's rights - take over some of those industry positions from men and make it better. she's powerful, has experience in business, money, connections, visibility, why not if that's what she cares about?

Originally Posted by redbird

Being like one of the guys helps women be taken more seriously.

do you really think that? i haven't really encountered that but maybe i'm just oblivious or don't care for such propositions.

[WildHearted]

Originally Posted by elle

do you really think that? i haven't really encountered that but maybe i'm just oblivious or don't care for such propositions.

You really have never experienced this, as a woman? It's sadly but definitely true.

[elle]

i'm not really sure why is everybody trying to argue there's still inequality today. that is not in the question, we all agree on this (and i'm glad we do!).

[johnnystorms]

probably best to ignore elle's posts. clearly only here to stir the pot.

[elle]

Originally Posted by johnnystorms

probably best to ignore elle's posts. clearly only here to stir the pot.

that is very disrespectful and dismissive (hey, are you dismissing me and my points because i'm a woman? lol).

we are having a discussion about women's issues some of us care about. if you don't, feel free to stay out of it.

[windbecame]

Originally Posted by elle

i'm not really sure why is everybody trying to argue there's still inequality today. that is not in the question, we all agree on this (and i'm glad we do!).

again.... Janet Jackson!! you run that board nobody comments on LOL.... why on EARTH are you on Stevie's page????? you don't even like her???? but not really.....so i guess. "that''s the way love goes"

[LittleSpacey]

Originally Posted by windbecame

again.... Janet Jackson!! you run that board nobody comments on LOL.... why on EARTH are you on Stevie's page????? you don't even like her???? but not really.....so i guess. "that''s the way love goes"

Yes, yes, and YES!

[DashingDan]

Put on your shawl and LEAN IN!

[I'msoAfraid95]

I'm all for women's rights. I'm a very independent 17 y/o female, but dam, Stevie, you think mighty highly of yourself, don't ya?. " We have to float like goddesses" PPPPLLLEEEAAASSSSEEE, Stevie, stop there.

Yes, women do need to show men that we can do the same things as them, and some things we can do better. I'd love to see a man go through having a period or pregnancy, that way men, will know what its like to be a woman, but also I'd like to feel whats its like to go through some of the crap men go through.

Goddesses? Yes, they are powerful, but yet they're expected to be beautiful, have manners, and allot of stuff that I don't want/ have nor do I to want to have that stuff.

[michelej1]

The thing about Stevie is, lest we forget, she was born in 1948 and some of her ideas are from that era. But I think she has evolved some over the years. There's no question that she supports other women and believes in shaping the independence of those who come after her. I think Sheryl, Vanessa and Taylor Swift are all examples of that. But sometimes with these people (Christine too) you just have to follow the pattern of equality they set with their LIVES and ignore some of their words, because the words sometimes don't conform to their achievements. And Stevie does -- or maybe she's outgrowing it now, but she did -- have a tendency to want women to be feminine, because she felt that helped them advance without challenge.

“I tend to get dressed up every single night so that everybody knows that when I walk in that this is serious. I don’t ever go to the studio in jeans and tennis shoes, ever. I always dress up because I know that if I walk in there, even if I’m ten pounds overweight, and I’m dressed up and I look pretty, then everyone in that room says ‘wow, she must have really thought she was going somewhere cause look at the rest of all of you.’ And I insist upon it with the girls too because if you don’t look like you care after these guys have been around you for a couple of months you are going to become like an old shoe. I am never going to become like an old shoe to any of the men in my life, ever. So they are always going to take me serious on that basis and it’s unfortunate that you have to do that, it’s a big game, but it works.”

"It says in the Highwayman, ‘she considers slowing down,' but then he would never win. She purposely lets him win because it’s easier to let him win. She gets a lot further if she just lets him win. And I learned that a long time ago if I was going to be accepted as anything, as a songwriter, as a person, as anything that I would have to be very quiet, unaggressive around them, feminine and trick them to death. And it worked. See I love them and I respect them so much, and they are, as far as I’m concerned the greatest songwriters and all I ever wanted from them was a pat on the back saying ‘not bad Stevie.'”

Or saying that men should know women are strong:

"And maybe if they fed that a little bit, all of this women's liberation would go away and everybody would be happy. If men gave us just a little more credit and an extra hug and said, "Good job," that would solve a lot of it. Women want to be beautiful, sweet, feminine and loving. But they also want to be thought of as intelligent and necessary. And even if your woman is not all those things, you should want her to feel good about herself, to believe in herself."

"I lived in a world of men. I had very few girlfriends. I mean Lindsey and I from the very beginning lived in a room maybe this size with his ten or eleven friends and me. And in order to be accepted as anything else other than as Lindsey's pretty girlfriend, the one who makes coffee for us, or pours us a glass of wine, or makes sure we have food if we are hungry, you know the one who keeps this place looking really nice. In order for me to be accepted by them as anything more than that, I had to be very careful, walk very quietly, say very little, and observe, and so I did. And that went right straight into Fleetwood Mac, I did the same thing. And that went straight into meeting The Eagles and all the other bands that I met, or the men in the bands that I met, that in order to be accepted as a musician, singer, songwriter, poet, I couldn't say too much and if I did I would instantly get thrown out.

[KateTheCursed]

Originally Posted by michelej1

And Stevie does -- or maybe she's outgrowing it now, but she did -- have a tendency to want women to be feminine, because she felt that helped them advance without challenge.

That's not just a Stevie thing. Dolly Parton has said something similar...along the lines that she didn't mind that people thought she was just another dumb blonde because she knew she wasn't really dumb or blonde. The thing about true feminism is that there is no one right feminine ideal. Some want to achieve their equality and independence by proving themselves through masculine confines. Other's want to achieve their equality and independence by being unapologetically and unyieldingly feminine. Both have merits. I'm a big, old tomboy who would die a 100 deaths if I had to wear chiffon & be girly every day to succeed. But you know what? That's a personal preference. So you go Joan Jett...you be as "masculine" and as rough around the edges as you want to be & you keep on keeping on your way until the day they pry the microphone from your cold, dead hand. And Stevie...never change! Be yourself everyday and keep encouraging other young women to be themselves (what ever form that may take). To thine own self be true.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by elle

i'm not really sure why is everybody trying to argue there's still inequality today. that is not in the question, we all agree on this (and i'm glad we do!).

I don't agree whatsoever with those who are making this personal and attacking you individually, but I've read this thread again and I'm still not sure exactly what is "in question."

[rhiannondontgo]

It amazes me that anyone could ever say that Stevie Nicks is not a trailblazer for women. Stevie is absolutely a feminist icon. This is a woman who chose a career over a family or a husband. A woman who admits to having had abortions. A woman who is straight up about how many men have screwed her over, and admits to every last discrepancy and affair and addiction, and openly says she doesn't mind giving up romance or marriage or companionship for her job. How many people can say that unabashedly? And in addition to that, she didn't play the "girl singer role" women so often took on in those days. She partied as hard as the men did. She did just as many drugs. She had just as much sex. She was never a housewife type of woman and she never claimed to be. I'm not saying all of her choices were right, but she definitely paved the way for a lot of other female musicians to come into their own. She's a beautiful, sexy woman who dresses up in lace and velvet and chiffon and platforms, but is taken seriously by every man in the business. She earned that. She never sacrificed her femininity and confidence to be treated like a serious musician. She proved herself to be treated that way. C'mon guys, we all know the rest of the band is incredibly talented, some of which perhaps even moreso than Stevie. But Stevie Nicks is what made FM mainstream. Rhiannon was their very first hit, Dreams was their only #1 song, she's the only one of them to have a very successful solo career and be so totally well-known. And that's amazing for the woman who started off not even wanted in the band, and then was being considered as the 'little sister' of the band. For so long she was thought of as second class due to her sex, and probably due to her beauty and femininity and glamour. As mentioned, people like Janis were taken more seriously because in addition to the talent she undoubtedly had, she wasn't much one for glitz and rhinestones and girliness. And that made her 'one of the guys', and she was taken seriously. Stevie wasn't always. Reminds me of this interview:

High Times: What about [a relationship with] someone like Don Henley, who knows [what your lifestyle is like]? He's in the same position.

SN: When I was going out with Don, it was five years ago and I was much less busy. Fleetwood Mac was much less popular, we were just beginning. When I was with Lindsey, we lived together and were famous. It was the opposite extreme. I'll never forget the day I was up at Don's house having dinner with him and his manager, Irving Azoff, who is now my manager five years later, and Glenn Frey of the Eagles walked in and looked at me and said, "Spoiled yet," like no mention of Fleetwood Mac. I was not even in the league of a singer. I was nothing more than a girl. My claws went out and I wanted to get out of there.

High Times: I don't know him well, but that sounds typical of Glenn Frey.

SN: He's witchy! And I love Glenn and that was a long time ago. That was my first taste of what it was like to be a happening girl rock 'n roll singer and have people not relate to me like I even had a job. I went out with John David Souther for a while, who is cute and wonderful but very Texas and I found when I was with him, I didn't mention Fleetwood Mac ever. It didn't help my status with the man to bring up anything I did, so I didn't. And then you start saying, "But I work too. I'm happening. I write songs, but you aren't giving me a break."



I'm not saying Stevie was the only one who paved the way, she obviously was not. Janis and Grace Slick started it before her. Linda and Ann and Nancy were doing it at the same time that she was. People like Madonna and Cyndi Lauper continued after her. Some women don't even get much recognition for their trailblazing actions. Did you all know Cher was the first woman to show her belly button on tv, and was criticized for it by the public? Did you know the press and country fans everywhere slandered Dolly Parton in the late 70s for talking about her sexual experiences in her teenage years during an interview? Or that in 1968, long before country was ever female-friendly, she released a single called Just Because I'm a Woman, about how hypocritical it is for men to judge women on past sexual discrepancies, or whether they drink or smoke or whatever, when they all are guilty of the same? Or that Debbie Harry, who started her career as a playboy bunny (!) and was considered one of the most beautiful women in the world, actually preached equality and anti-racism all throughout her career, is credited with making rap mainstream, actually named her band after the cat-calls from men in cars who would yell "hey blondie!" out at her and whistle; in an attempt to re-claim the rude nickname, and that she openly admits to her plastic surgery, sexual experiences with women, and past drug addictions?
There have been hundreds of female public figures who have together paved the way for girls of today, and it's preposterous to stay Stevie isn't one of them. Maybe some have accomplished more than others, or should be considered bigger trailblazers. But no matter where you rank her, she is on that list.

[Aussie W/Heart]

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