Let's talk about Say You Will marking FM's legacy
 

Hi all,

The last studio album by Fleetwood Mac was Buckingham McVie. Oh, sorry, my mistake - it was Say You Will. Apart from a 17 minute EP they haven't released new music or even live recordings apart from Live in Boston (2003) since then.

So how does Say You Will stack up? Does it cement their legacy as a confessional songwriting team? An adult contemporary pop music powerhouse?

I'm going to give my opinion in answer to those questions, but only because I want to hear yours too.

Say You Will is my second favourite Fleetwood Mac album. Tusk is my favourite but I've heard it too much. I've listened to Say You Will many times, it is in heavy rotation on my car CD player currently. I think is a brilliant, creative, challenging album. I think the band, including Christine (for her keyboards and backing vocals on two songs) can be very proud of their efforts. John McVie's bass line on Smile at You is genius. All the band members produced great works of art. Nicks could have written more than four new songs but other than that I can't complain. I think Say You Will has stood the test of time. 14 years later it sounds incredible to me still with every listen, though I first heard it in 2012.

Extended Play was good too but it doesn't count as an album and SYW ****s all over it.

But here's a curly one: what's a better legacy, Buckingham McVie (If it had been say, On With the Show by Fleetwood Mac) or Say You Will?

I'm curious to hear your answers to that one for sure! :nod:

I've always seen it more as a Buckingham Nicks album with a good rhythm section as opposed to being a real FM album. I really don't care for it, a few good songs but overall too long and too loudly mastered for my tastes.
The vibe also seems unhappy. Have you heard Bare Trees, Future Games or Then Play On?

I find Say You Will a bit like Buck/Vie- two solo albums combined into one. It's just more noticeable on Say You Will because there are 18 songs on it. The only songs I really love are Thrown Down, Say You Will, Peacekeeper, Goodbye Baby, and What's the World Coming To. The rest I either tolerate or dislike. I really wish Stevie and Lindsey sang more on each other's songs, a complaint I have about the Buck/Vie album as well.

I saw them in Columbus when they toured for this album, and I was surprised and thrilled they sang so many songs from Say You Will, but from what I understand, they pretty quickly replaced some of the new songs with standards either due to poor audience reaction or the lackluster sales of the album.

I'm glad you like the album, but for me it was a disappointment.

One of my least favorite FM albums. Like lennonfan said, it's not got a happy vibe to it.

I absolutely LOVE this new Fleetwood Mac album, especially compared to SYW.

John and Mick are SUBLIME on Say You Will. Sublime. Love the album and yes, it has stood the test of time.

I like "Say you will"...and prefer it..
Yes it's a couple of songs too long.
But it does have some stuff you can get your teeth into.
It also took sometime to get to like, it so it's a slow burner.
........for me......

It's a masterpiece; the best work anybody involved in Fleetwood Mac has done since Tusk. It is a worthy send-off.

I have never shaken my first impression, that "Say You Will" is two solo albums on shuffle. I like it well enough to listen to it once in a while, but if it had been half as long it would be a better album. To my ear, Christine's absence is a fatal flaw in this album. She has always been the balancing factor between Lindsey's bluster and Stevie's airiness.

The BuckVie album, to my ear, holds together much better and sounds like much more of a band effort. Yes, there are songs alternating lead vocalists, but that has been true of most of the songs of the McVie-Buckingham-Nicks era. I don't find Stevie's absence a flaw at all; my opinion is that the lineup that recorded this album had a lot more fun without her, and it shows in the final result.

What my inquiring mind wants to know is WTF happened during the making of the record that caused Stevie not to want to ever do it again.
I like Say You Will. Destiny Rules is the quintessential Fleetwood Mac track on the record. The rest of it is a little here, there and everywhere. Stevie cribbed two of the melodies from Richard Ashcroft (Silver Girl - I Get My Beat and Illume - New York). The Silver Girl demo in the doc is better than the finished product. I don't like what became of Smile At You. I like Lindsey's nod to Brian Wilson in What's The World Coming To. Peacekeeper, Red Rover and Say Goodbye are great. So the FM legacy will be unscathed by this record but incomplete. They should make one last record. Never say never with this group.

The observations many have made about two solo albums mixed together makes sense. But that has been the case with a number of Mac albums, including some pre-BN ones and TIME. So that doesn't really surprise or disappoint me.

As a whole, SYW is uneven but VERY substantial. Both writers bring some great material to the project and the rhythm section kicks butt.

For me, the weakest parts of the album are in its center.

I love: Illume, Murrow, Miranda, Throw Down, Destiny Rules, Say You Will, Steal Your Heart Away, Red Rover, Bleed to Love Her (even the second time), Say Goodbye, and especially Everybody Finds Out.

That's a lot to love. There are a few middling songs in there and even fewer duds. But overall I'm happy to have such a substantial body of music. For what it's worth, I feel the exact same way about IN THE MEANTIME, which followed one year from this.

OMG!!! Just listened to both songs on Spotify from his Alone With Everybody album and you're so right! Anyone reading this please go and listen. Stevie quite obviously heard this album before the making of SYW and these tracks stuck with her. Quite amazing, thanks for sharing.

Say You Will is routinely bashed around here and I cant understand why. Its brilliant and a masterpiece. It really was a void without Christine. But besides Rumours or Tusk, Lindsey's brilliance has never shown more than on this record.
Whats the world coming to is a great catchy opener. It was SO NICE to hear Stevie backing Lindsey again. Wow, it was so long to hear this.
Illume- pure genius Mr. Buckingham. How to turn an emotional poem about 9/11 into a song. A pop song? NO WAY. Its raw, its confusing, its dynamic, and so unpredictable as a song. That pretty much captures the whole experience of 9/11. PURE GENIUS!!!!
Thrown Down - wow a classic Mac song with Stevie singing strong. Very catchy
Say You Will - a great pop single and the meaning is sincere about wanting Christine to stay
Peacekeeper- a pretty good lead of single
Come - brilliant guitar work something Lindsey does not always show on his songs
Smile at you - so many demos over the years. This version rocks. Stevie is angry
Running through the Garden - finally makes it to an album and what a masterpiece!
Everybody finds out - probably in the top 15 of all time best Mac tunes. Its a full orchestra of drums, percussion, bass, guitar and the song explodes in the end. I wish the Mac had more songs like this. Its really the perfect song with lyrics and music
Destiny Rules - fantastic songs

the songs I did not mention are good but not the best of the album. I never cared for the goodbye baby songs. If I could remove 4 songs and add Christine songs this would be one of the best mac albums ever.
I don't get why anyone cant see that this album musically is probably their most intricate ever. Its no computer programmed Tango for sure. You can tell they worked their heart out on every song.

They're great songs so I can see why. It's okay to be inspired by another artist.

I don't love it and I don't hate it. I like most of the songs (Say you Will is really catchy and my favorite. I also love Running Throught the Garden, Thrown Down, Peacekeeper, Say Goodbye, Goodbye Baby) but in my opinión it has too many songs. But unlike Tusk it's not a good thing here, because it doesn't have Christine and also because Stevie's mood is all over the album. :shrug:

I was listening this this record just yesterday, after playing Buckingham/McVie ad nauseam since it's release (easily 3 times a day).

My one take away which I've never truly appreciated before - Say You Will is John McVies best work ever. John kills it on nearly every track, the amount of times he saves songs just with his bass work is endless.

I think when it's all said and done Say You Will will sit somewhere in-between albums like Mystery To Me and Mirage, loved by fans that follow the band closely but generally overlooked by the mass market.

Say You Will is a classic Fleetwood Mac album. I never saw at as two solo projects put together. This is how these albums come together. I'm so glad it's as long as it is and that an album was recorded after Christine left. It's what the Mac was from 1999-2014. The tour was fantastic featuring so many of the new songs. It fits in very well with the rest of their catalog of music.

Say You Will
 

Say You Will is my second favorite Fleetwood Mac album as well. Tusk is my favorite but I've heard it too much. Say You Will has stood the test of time. 14 years later it sounds incredible to me still with every listen, though I first heard it in 2003 it feels fresh compared to Tusk which has aged a bit..

It is a masterpiece and worthy send-off

I love Say You Will. It's my second favourite album after Tusk. I find it to be a very creatively interesting album, that I never tire of hearing. Maybe it doesn't have the happiest vibe of FM albums, but that doesn't mean it isn't brilliant in it's own way.

Peacekeeper played on the radio on Sunday morning, it was great to hear it. It's a long time since I've hear anything from SYW on the radio over here.

That's a good point about not being a happy vibe. That was where Christine really would have made this album near perfection if you could take away 5 songs and add 5 of hers.
I think its probably one of the Macs more intricate albums musically. The music is so good. The songs are top notch even with lyrics. I know this album well because I used to jog with it every night. With headphones it really made me appreciate how good the music is. There has never been a more powerhouse music album from the Mac. There is some very good songs and arrangements. There was no pressure for a pop album so the cheezy stuff was left off. What was brought was some amazing songs.

Just curious - for all of you that think SYW is so great....WHY is it that the band pretends that it never happened now, and play nothing from it?

Yeah, I guess they think it's great, too. :lol:

Exhibit A: BTLH
Exhibit B: Say Goodbye

Lindsey plays stuff from it. He also plays Come on his solo tours. He should bring back Red Rover although RAB is an offshoot of it.

Peacekeeper and Red Rover (maybe more?) are also a part of the acoustic set that's played over the PA while the crew readies the stage on the BuckMcVie tour. I think I've heard these versions used prior to Fleetwood Mac concerts, too.

Obviously not the same as playing those songs on stage, but also not completely forgotten.

That's not a fair comparison at all. If Christine was not back in the band I am sure they would play songs from it. The album was not a huge commercial success and today the Mac sticks to only their hits with maybe two deeper cuts from the bigger successful albums. Commercial success means NOTHING when you rate an album. The most successful albums of all time are slick bubble gum pop. Some of the best albums in rock did not sell that much. I think Christine McVie (1984) and In The Meantime are awesome albums but not really commercially successful. Those reasons why Christine is not playing songs from those albums which is a shame. By your standard we get Big Love every time :eek:
Imagine someone saying Mystery to Me and Heroes are hard to find are not good albums because the band does not play any material from them.
I would love to hear Running through the Garden or Everybody finds out over Rhiannon or Gypsy ANYDAY

I think they perceive, rightly or wrongly that fans want to hear Rumours and Tusk tracks....
Me I'd love to hear Running thro the Garden, Say you will or Steal your Heart away.....just for a change.

Say You Will is an outstanding masterpiece as far as I'm concerned. It includes so many songs that I count among my all-time favorite songs by either Buckingham or Nicks.

I have read some misjudged and misinformed things in my years of being a huge Fleetwood Mac fan but this is one of the top ones.

For years they played nothing from TUSK except... TUSK.

For years, Stevie refused to even play "Sara" which is one of the gold standard hits/classics/masterpieces in her entire repertoire. But it was from a tough episode in her life and a period she doesn't remember as very positive or great.

And you made this comment, HomerMcVie, with such arrogance and flippancy ... I take it you're a HUGE Stevie fan ... you do realize that Stevie completely ignores the following albums from her catalogue:

Rock a Little (an album that in recent years has been reappraised as a masterpiece or at the very least an album with moments of brilliance. It had a couple hit singles - they are GONE from her set it seems FOREVER).

The Other Side of the Mirror (an album I think is overall pretty weak but some consider it her finest and I've often heard fans call it her best set of songs since her TUSK songs. It had a couple hit singles - they are GONE from her set it seems FOREVER).

Street Angel (another album I think is overall a little weak but a lot of songs I personally love including the mild hits Blue Denim and Maybe Love Will Change Your Mind. I love Greta, Listen to the Rain, Destiny, Kick It. It had a couple of minor hit singles - they are GONE from her set it seems FOREVER).

Trouble in Shangri-La (the album I consider her absolute solo masterpiece in terms of the number of songs I adore. TISL, Sorcerer, Planets, It's Only Love, Love Changes, Bombay, Fall from Grace, Love Is. It had a couple of hit singles but more importantly has career important songs as in they are milestone songs - they are GONE from her set it seems FOREVER. Even the couple of times she brought back "Love Is" she was doing it in the arrangement of the demo from way back when.)

That's four albums that - IF you're a Stevie fan - you probably LOVE and think are great so let me ask you something ... if you've made it this far into my comment because you don't really seem like someone that has much interest in other people's views, opinions and feelings ...

WHY is it that Stevie Nicks pretends that it never happened now, and plays nothing from it?

Dear Carnival you are obviously very new here if you never scanned any of Homers posts. I'm guessing he's getting a good laugh about your assumption that he loves SN.

Now that he's flippant and arrogant - oh yeah... ;) but I think he's got about 5 to 10 posts to completely dispute his flippant claim. :)

Thought that, because he has a Stevie photo as his avatar he was indeed a Stevie fan.

Same thing could be said about every single member of the band and their solo careers.

Christine never, ever plays ANYTHING from her 3 solo albums.
Lindsey barely plays ANYTHING from any of his solo albums except for:

1 song from Law & Order
1 song from Go Insane
NO songs from his masterpiece Out of the Cradle (sometimes All My Sorrows and Turn it On but ... next to NEVER)
1 song from UNDER THE SKIN
NOTHING from GIFT OF SCREWS
And it remains to be seen if he'll do ANYTHING from SWS his other absolute masterpiece when his next solo tour comes along.

I think HomerMcVie is probably having a good laugh knowing full well that what he said about SYW and the band ignoring it the way they "ignore" most of their own career save for RUMOURS has about as much validity as a Donald Trump tweet.

Cheers!

I have that Stevie avatar... because she looks ridiculous! And if you'd see it full size, there's a piece of black crap stuck to her tongue!

You're correct, I love her! :wavey:

But Peacekeeper and the song SYW both got airplay! So why would they just throw them under the bus, like Bob Welch at the RRHOF?:mad::lol::mad:

My assumption for why they don't play SYW material is because all the tours they've gone on since SYW have just been "Greatest Hits" nostalgia shows where they (particularly Stevie, Lindsey is better about this) regurgitate the Dance with a small amount of variation (Think About Me, Sisters of the Moon, Storms, etc.). Say You Will also didn't make too much of a splash with critics or the public in terms of sales back then. They aim to please the crowds in these shows and I guess they assume the broader audience just doesn't want to hear anything from SYW when they could hear Rumours (sans IDWTK) again.

Case in point: The resurrection of Seven Wonders for OWTS. Her comment on it was something along the lines of "Thank god for American Horror Story, because now we can play this song again!" Uh... what? Was someone stopping you from playing Seven Wonders all this time? It's a fine reason to bring the song back, but you didn't play it all this time because it wasn't a mega hit or on Rumours? Just play what you want!

Well that's just sad. And doesn't say much for them as "artists".

That's why I've been so proud of BuckVie. EIGHT new songs played live is remarkable.

Stevie refusing to record new stuff is indicative of the problem.

They were so confident in their new material that they could tour it and do 80% of it live.

Stevie exhibiting zero confidence in the band is a big no-no. If you have no confidence in the band you're in, perhaps you should just leave.

Agreed! I'm so in love with this new Fleetwood Mac album! It's fantastic!

It's time for her to Go Her Own Way.

Agreed 100%, it's pretty lame. That might actually be why they went with the BuckVie monkier and not Fleetwood Mac: the expectations for the album and tour weren't there and so it allowed them more creativity. I gurantee you that if the album was called a Fleetwood Mac then we would have seen much more than YMLF, GYOW, Little Lies, Tusk, NGBA and Everywhere from the staple setlist. SYLM, Don't Stop, World Turning, Over My Head, and maybe others would've also risen up while more than a few new album tracks would have been cut.

Let's all be thankful they decided to go under their own names for the album and the tour.

I hope the next Fleetwood Mac album is titled Better Without Her
for a reason.

She's not enjoying it anymore, and she seems to be happier with her solo career, so it's a win-win-win situation (for Stevie, for the rest of the band and for the fans). :woohoo:

It's a good album, but too long and scattered for my tastes. I'd give it a solid 3 1/2 stars out of 5. This is the Say You Will album I burned to CD.

01. What's the World Coming To
02. Say You Will
03. Peacekeeper
04. Thrown Down
05. Miranda
06. Destiny Rules
07. Steal Your Heart Away
08. Everybody Finds Out
09. Bleed to Love Her
10. Not Make Believe
11. Say Goodbye
12. Goodbye Baby

I find SYW incredibly difficult to listen to as an album but it has some fantastic moments which sound great in the wider context, like coming on when your music is on shuffle mode. As it stands, SYW is too bloated and overly self indulgent. If they cut some songs each then there's a fantastic album hidden in there.

Lindsey:
Peacekeeper
Miranda
Bleed To Love Her
Steal Your Heart Away
Say Goodbye

Stevie:
Thrown Down
Illume
Destiny Rules
Everybody Finds Out
Running Through The Garden

Put those ten songs together and you have an absolutely fantastic album imo

When SYW came out I had been waiting for MY first new FM album ever after having become a fan during The Dance Tour.

I was of course the first in line to buy the expanded special edition in the cardboard gatefold CD case. I was excited to hear proper official versions of my favorite demos like Running Garden, Smile at You and The Tower (goodbye baby).

What I got was great lyrics, decent vocals, and great mixing, but what I thought was a Soulless album. It was overproduced. Too much noise, no air. No organic instruments, and only what felt like robotic MIDI file instruments. Too many guitar parts, not enough piano or organ. And all the songs sounded the same way. There was not enough variation in the instrumentation and sound field. It was flat. The mastering was also flat and everything was fighting in a wall of sound way. I wanted a Fleetwood Mac album and what I got was Tango In the Night on steroids only with better Stevie presence.

I will still listen to it, but I skip more than half the Buckingham songs, and I actually like the Live Running Through The Garden from Columbus better than the album version. She really knocked that one out of the Park. A shame they only did it once.

I would like to have access to the original tapes and do a "Naked" version of SYW, strip it down to Drums, Bass, Guitar and maybe a few scant extra instruments and backing vocals. Then master it better. I bet it would be a fantastic sounding Fleetood Mac album.