Non-Album Survivor Rounds 4-5

[ReFleetwoodMac]

Originally Posted by face of glass

Lindsey Buckingham didn't come here to bare his soul in the manners that singer-songwriters do (even though he might have done it a few times), he came here to dazzle us with his instrumental colours, to emotionally show all the various sides of his personality, his heartbreak, his spiritual uplift, his happiness, his hyperactive nuttiness, his violent and depression, through his music.

So he wasn't put here to bare his soul, but he was put here to bare his emotions and thoughts and personality? I advise you to look up the definition of "soul". But if you just meant baring his soul in this one specific way, then I say why on earth would you limit him to only doing these specific things? He's not allowed to do things he's not expected to do? Isn't breaking the rules and embracing the unknown and unexplored sort what he's all about? He can bare his soul in whatever way he pleases.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by ReFleetwoodMac

Isn't breaking the rules and embracing the unknown and unexplored sort what he's all about? He can bare his soul in whatever way he pleases.

Of course he can, I was just stating that his rarely-used singer-songwriter mode wasn't the one I fell in love with (except for "Street Of Dreams", but it reminds me of prime Closer-era Joy Division which I'm biased towards), it was his role as a pop eccentric that did it for me.

[Mari]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

Agreeing totally, I don't think "holiday road" is the best example of it, but that's a matter of taste. You just gave words to my love for Given Thing, IKINW, NTF,The Ledge and That's Enough For Me, Hell, even Turn It On.
Thank you VERY much.

still the same selfindulgent buttheadiness, huh Gaius? Ramble on Fin, you make me smile and you deserve the presidency 100% with these posts.

Yep.. he's back!

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by face of glass

I'm late with this pretentious response, since I was on a "holiday road". (Excuse the lame pun.)

For me "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind" is a piece that is in the singer-songwriter territory, in a similar way to something like "Save Me A Place" or "Street Of Dreams" (both songs I know you dislike, albeit "Street Of Dreams" and "SGCYM" both are far more convincing atmospherically than "SMAP"). It is not a typical mode for Lindsey Buckingham, it is a mode you'd expect from someone like Bob Dylan, John Lennon, or hell, even Stevie Nicks. It is a mode where the appeal is usually to be found in the intimacy of the piece, the warmth of the vocal, the introspective lyrics and such. And it is something Lindsey Buckingham has gotten himself into only a few times during his career. So no matter how much I love "SGCYM", it won't ever find its way into my biggest favourites. Lindsey Buckingham didn't come here to bare his soul in the manners that singer-songwriters do (even though he might have done it a few times), he came here to dazzle us with his instrumental colours, to emotionally show all the various sides of his personality, his heartbreak, his spiritual uplift, his happiness, his hyperactive nuttiness, his violent and depression, through his music. "SGCYM" does show us his vulnerable side, but as I said, it is shown only in the more traditional manner of the singer-songwriters. I believe his vulnerability is present in almost anything he does, but not in the same way as in "SGCYM".

I prefer Holiday Road to SGCYM too, but to say Lindsey "didn't come here to bare his soul in the manners that singer-songwriters do" seems to limit him as an artist in my opinion. Why can't he do both? There's as much artistry in one as there is the other. I don't think musically something like Never Going Back Again (a simple acoustic number) is any less important than something like Play In The Rain. And I disagree with the notion that true Lindsey fans will appreciate his experimental work over his pop tracks too. Isn't it his diversity we all love and cherish?

In defense of Miss Vicky I would also say that, if we are purely speaking musically and not lyrically here, it's hard to find a deeper emotional resonance in the bontempi-minimalism of Holiday Road. The fake handclaps, barking dogs, the simple but slightly corny synth bass (which sounds like something that's comes programmed into one of those cheap kids' keyboards), it's all very lightweight.
That's not to say it's not fun, and as you say, having fun is as important as any emotion, but I still don't think it's one of Lindsey's most spectacular moments on a purely musical level. That said it's the overall effect I love. Y'know it's damn catchy and makes you feel good!

As for the lyrics, I guess this song was written primarily for a movie (National Lampoon's Vacation) and they reflect this. Unless of course he means it's a long hard road to get to easy street, to success that is.

[Mari]

I've been thinking, why do I like Holiday Road better than SGCYM, but this quote from Billy Corgan captivates it exactly: (ha, another excuse to bring up New Order )

"What did he learn from New Order? Two things, he says. "One is that true power is rhythmic, it's not volume. And the rhythmic relationship is internal — that's something that all the early blues guys like Robert Johnson understood. And secondarily, where I'd always figured New Order were really pretentious and drew their whole sound out as some Bauhaus concept, no — they are energy whores. You show them where the energy goes, they will follow it. When I played with'em, they hadn't played Joy Division songs in 22 years, and I said, 'Why did you choose to play these songs again?' And they said, 'We just felt like it.' They didn't intellectualize the decision; they were just chasing down the rabbit hole." "

Holiday Road does have that Energy, I think. Some of the songs I love the most are so deceptively simple and straightforward but they have THAT energy and I feel it in my tummy. I don't care if the lyrics have no meaning then. Yes, good lyrics can give an extra dimension to music, but music it is in the first place, and that is what I care about.

And, edit, that's when Lindsey is on his best. As an Energy Whore.

[Miss Vicky]

First of all, I don't deny that a message and emotions can be transmitted through music. I've never denied that. However, I am not a musician. I am a writer and as much as I respect, enjoy, and admire the way in which a musician can evoke images and emotions simply in the way that he or she plays an instrument, the lyrics that accompany that music will always have a higher place in my heart. However, even without the lyrics, "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind" is, in my opinion, a superior song to "Holiday Road," although I love both songs.
And, for the record, although Lindsey Buckingham is a guitarist at heart, he has shown us the singer/songwriter side of him on more than just a few occasions. In fact, he seems to show this side on at least one song from every album he's released, both solo and with the band. The first and probably one of the best of which was Buckingham Nicks' "Without A Leg to Stand On."

[Mari]

If lyrics are more important to you than the music, then what's the difference with poetry? Why don't you just pick up a lyric sheet and read that instead of listening to the record? Just curious.

And to my taste, Without A Leg To Stand On is one of LB's weaker songs. It's personal taste, and that goes for everything we discuss here, sure.
Musically it doesn't have enough of his distinctive sound, yet, I miss that. Some other singer/songwriter could've recorded it and you wouldn't be able to tell that it was written by him.

It's just funny to see how completely opposite we are in our ideas about his music and what we like about it, I think.

[ReFleetwoodMac]

Originally Posted by Mari

If lyrics are more important to you than the music, then what's the difference with poetry? Why don't you just pick up a lyric sheet and read that instead of listening to the record? Just curious.

She didn't say lyrics are only reason she listens the song, just that they are more important to her. And I quote - "even without the lyrics, 'Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind' is, in my opinion, a superior song to 'Holiday Road.'" So she does have the ability to judge music too.

[Mari]

Yes, and I wanted to know how MUCH more important lyrics are to her then, just using an example.
I find it a bit weird to first say you care more about lyrics and know more about it, and then continue to say you find one song musically better than the other.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by ReFleetwoodMac

She didn't say lyrics are only reason she listens the song, just that they are more important to her. And I quote - "even without the lyrics, 'Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind' is, in my opinion, a superior song to 'Holiday Road.'" So she does have the ability to judge music too.

Thank you for that.

And you were quite coherent.

Yes, the lyrics are more important to me than the music, but the music still holds importance, just not as much. And in my opinion, Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind is superior to Holiday Road on both a lyrical and musical level.

[Mari]

Well, you haven't got me convinced. Holiday Road's still the better song

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by Mari

Well, you haven't got me convinced. Holiday Road's still the better song

I wasn't trying to convince you, just merely restating my own opinion.
And Holiday Road is good... it's catchy, entertaining, fun, fluff.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by trackaghost

And I disagree with the notion that true Lindsey fans will appreciate his experimental work over his pop tracks too. Isn't it his diversity we all love and cherish?

Very true.

As for the lyrics, I guess this song was written primarily for a movie (National Lampoon's Vacation) and they reflect this. Unless of course he means it's a long hard road to get to easy street, to success that is.

I think the lyrics can very easily be applied to Fleetwood Mac - their success was a "Holiday Road" but he paid a price for it. I think the "long way down" is actually after the "holiday road" is reached - not a long way TO, but DOWN. He's expressing disillusionment, IMHO, but in such a fun, catchy way you don't notice.

See, Victoria, I can find deep meaning.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

I think the lyrics can very easily be applied to Fleetwood Mac - their success was a "Holiday Road" but he paid a price for it. I think the "long way down" is actually after the "holiday road" is reached - not a long way TO, but DOWN. He's expressing disillusionment, IMHO, but in such a fun, catchy way you don't notice.

See, Victoria, I can find deep meaning.

Nice interpretation, but I still think it's fluff.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by trackaghost

I prefer Holiday Road to SGCYM too, but to say Lindsey "didn't come here to bare his soul in the manners that singer-songwriters do" seems to limit him as an artist in my opinion. Why can't he do both?

He can do both, but personally I see it as a wrong approach if one solely concentrates on his singer-songwriter side (=that he is judged in the same way as Lennon, Dylan, Hammill, Reed or Nicks). To me that side is just another side that I cram under the multi-coloured umbrella that is "pop eccentricity".

And I disagree with the notion that true Lindsey fans will appreciate his experimental work over his pop tracks too. Isn't it his diversity we all love and cherish?

I'd like to know where in my post I displayed such a notion. After all, I, too, am a person who appreciates his diversity with all my heart, moments like "You And I Part Two" or "It Was I" (representative of charming naivety) are no less dear to me than "D. W. Suite" or "Play In The Rain" (representative of Lindsey finally escaping the traditional song structure for a while, and acting like the Grande Artist).

In defense of Miss Vicky I would also say that, if we are purely speaking musically and not lyrically here, it's hard to find a deeper emotional resonance in the bontempi-minimalism of Holiday Road. The fake handclaps, barking dogs, the simple but slightly corny synth bass (which sounds like something that's comes programmed into one of those cheap kids' keyboards), it's all very lightweight.

Opinion appreciated, and I know I can't change anyone's mind with this obsessive ranting.

"Holiday Road" makes me feel giddy all over, it makes me want to go out and roll on a lawn, and laugh like a nutcase. Personally I find it a hard-hitting musical piece that is far from lightweight, but since you insist on it being such, let us play with that thought for a while.

To me it is difficult to do something lightweight that is impressive and resonant. I'm speaking of something like "I'm A Believer" or "Baby One More Time", songs that time will prove as timeless pop classics. I'd go as far as to call them perfect pop songs. Both of these are a collection of cliches, but they're a collection of cliches that work, unlike many other attempts at writing a well-crafted chart hit (but then that's another matter of personal opinion).
Writers like Nick Hornby have argued from time and time again that there is incredible depth in banality, that it takes actual skill to make a moment of pure pop magic from cliched ingredients, and I agree with that.
People seem to assume that "Holiday Road" is a pure throwaway, something that Lindsey quickly threw together and gave away for a soundtrack of some movie. For me it is a perfect pop song, a collection of cliches that should not work when collected together but they somehow do work and create this magical state. It is difficult to make such cliches work, but somehow the song just manages to do that. And therefore I do not see it as any less worthy than anything else Lindsey has ever done. Doing something impressive and lightweight is difficult, just as difficult as baring your soul in an impressive manner. And that's why I can't see "Holiday Road" as a throwaway.