A Religious Leader Who Isn't An Idiot

[Sahara]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

I hope Im wrong but Im afraid the backlash (OH! the moral indignation!) will cost her her job.

If she's coming out with this sort of stuff that directly contradicts what her church says, then maybe she's not doing much of a good job at it to begin with.
I thought the purpose of religious leaders was to uphold the beliefs of their church, not to just pick and choose what they want to believe and preach.
When we start picking and choosing what to believe from the Bible and from God's teachings we're making up our own little version of God, and how can we be sure of truth in that?

Just my two cents' worth.


PS: To call religious leaders and those who believe homosexuality is sinful "idiots" is a bit much.

[Alison]

Sahara, please clear out your message box. I was trying to send you something.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by Sahara

If she's coming out with this sort of stuff that directly contradicts what her church says, then maybe she's not doing much of a good job at it to begin with.
I thought the purpose of religious leaders was to uphold the beliefs of their church, not to just pick and choose what they want to believe and preach.
When we start picking and choosing what to believe from the Bible and from God's teachings we're making up our own little version of God, and how can we be sure of truth in that?

Just my two cents' worth.


PS: To call religious leaders and those who believe homosexuality is sinful "idiots" is a bit much.

Right - But don't you see that the homosexuality debate is something that has been PICKED AND CHOSEN - it's one little passage that has been horribly misinterpreted because of POLITICS NOT RELIGION!

So those who believe homosexuality is a sin? Well they're VERY guilty of picking and choosing from the Bible. And that is the truth.

Edit: Here's a little Internet thing I always laugh at - it makes an excellent point:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.

I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that
knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to
defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other
elements of God's Law and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it
creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my
neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I
smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned
in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is
in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male
and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.
Exodus 35:2. The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if
I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the
hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig
makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester
blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town
together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy
considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can
help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Right - But don't you see that the homosexuality debate is something that has been PICKED AND CHOSEN - it's one little passage that has been horribly misinterpreted because of POLITICS NOT RELIGION!

So those who believe homosexuality is a sin? Well they're VERY guilty of picking and choosing from the Bible. And that is the truth.

BINGO !
What shocked me most about this woman was she is the first religious leader I have ever heard talk about this selective belief in print. The mixed fibers ! Straight from Macy's to Hell !
And she actually mentioned the evidently unmentionable historical context issue. I am so impressed by her. I think they will hang her over educated ass from the highest tree, but I am impressed. She might actually get a few people to think before they lynch her.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by sparky

BINGO !
What shocked me most about this woman was she is the first religious leader I have ever heard talk about this selective belief in print. The mixed fibers ! Straight from Macy's to Hell !
And she actually mentioned the evidently unmentionable historical context issue. I am so impressed by her. I think they will hang her over educated ass from the highest tree, but I am impressed. She might actually get a few people to think before they lynch her.

I hope so too - I mean I hope she sticks first and foremost - but my faith in that is low

Why oh why out of everything to focus on are people so damn intent on demonizing homosexuals? It really makes NO sense to me at ALL.

AND Worse...what kind of a religious leader would advocate hatred and dissent based on their religion and Bible...but that seems to be the majority

I was taught by religious leaders in my community growing up that the Bible is NOT a weapon, is NOT a tool of derision...it's a guide.

And as for my own religiousity - well I hope that the few people like that woman and myself and others that will affect change..maybe not tomorrow - but someday

[sparky]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

I hope so too - I mean I hope she sticks first and foremost - but my faith in that is low

Why oh why out of everything to focus on are people so damn intent on demonizing homosexuals? It really makes NO sense to me at ALL.

Enemy. People need an enemy. Not even Muslims are a big enough target for the seething and seemingly endless rage and fear. They will always want a target at home too. I wish I knew why. Human nature ? All I can say is that most of the people who spout this stuff are led there.

AND Worse...what kind of a religious leader would advocate hatred and dissent based on their religion and Bible...but that seems to be the majority

Lowest common denominator, I suppose. It's all about good and evil, black and white. Like I said, people love a target. They want to fight something. And they want to see it as they take it down.

I was taught by religious leaders in my community growing up that the Bible is NOT a weapon, is NOT a tool of derision...it's a guide.

And as for my own religiousity - well I hope that the few people like that woman and myself and others that will affect change..maybe not tomorrow - but someday

You were lucky. Fight the good fight. Spread the word. To badly paraphrase Bon Jovi, "You give religion a good name !"

[Jason T.]

Originally Posted by ThePenguin

don't hold your breath. :-(

-Lis

If only I believed in miracles...

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by Jason T.

If only I believed in miracles...

well we've made some progress..women no longer HAVE to wear doilies on their heads for mass

[Jason T.]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

well we've made some progress..women no longer HAVE to wear doilies on their heads for mass

lol -- you're right...change is coming...just verrrry slowly.

I'm just waiting until they elect Stevie as Pope

Pope Stevie of Shangri-La

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by Jason T.

lol -- you're right...change is coming...just verrrry slowly.

I'm just waiting until they elect Stevie as Pope

Pope Stevie of Shangri-La

You're gonna be waiting a loooong time

Sadly a woman can't even make it to priest - that's one thing I'd like to see changed, that and the celibate thing...erm on second though perhaps I should just veer on over to Episcopal land (which actually is something I've considered).

[Sahara]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Right - But don't you see that the homosexuality debate is something that has been PICKED AND CHOSEN - it's one little passage that has been horribly misinterpreted because of POLITICS NOT RELIGION!

I don't understand what you mean, sorry. It's there in black and white plenty of times, how has it been misinterpreted?

So those who believe homosexuality is a sin? Well they're VERY guilty of picking and choosing from the Bible.

How so?

Religious leaders who say that homosexuality is sinful don't advocate hatred and dissent. Sure, some do, some individuals do, but that's not the way of God. Any religious leader doing the work of God doesn't advocate hatred of anyone.
Similarly, those who think homosexuality is sinful aren't intent on demonizing them. Again, it's a small minority. They need an enemy, someone to victimize? No. It's the act we disagree with, not the person.

To say we've at least made progress is kind of worrying to me. God's word is forever. Society changes but God doesn't change, and even when society accepts certain things it doesn't mean that the Church must conform to them.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by Sahara

I don't understand what you mean, sorry. It's there in black and white plenty of times, how has it been misinterpreted?


How so?

Religious leaders who say that homosexuality is sinful don't advocate hatred and dissent. Sure, some do, some individuals do, but that's not the way of God. Any religious leader doing the work of God doesn't advocate hatred of anyone.
Similarly, those who think homosexuality is sinful aren't intent on demonizing them. Again, it's a small minority. They need an enemy, someone to victimize? No. It's the act we disagree with, not the person.

To say we've at least made progress is kind of worrying to me. God's word is forever. Society changes but God doesn't change, and even when society accepts certain things it doesn't mean that the Church must conform to them.

Actually it's only in black and white a couple of times compared to the hundres of references condeming sex acts etc between heterosexuals.

The people who use Leviticus as the anti-gay thing have taken it competely out of historical context.

AND they've chosen to heed only that passage. How is that NOT picking and choosing? The letter I posted above clearly illustrates how yes, in fact, people ARE picking and chosing which parts of God's word to obey.

EDIT:


I'm NOT discussing this further. Those who think homosexuality is a sin won't change their minds based on what I have to say and I'm generally not a fan of talking at brick walls.

I believe what I believe, and I happen to think it's sinful for people to pass judgement on other based solely on who and how they love.

[Sugar]

Well it seems to me it's all about interpretation. There was a guest opinion in my local paper this Saturday from a pastor who essentially said that they embrace homosexual couples because they perceive the Bible to be about love and family and that protecting the children should come first. Interestingly enough, she also went on to say that, because of that position, a ban on gay marriage (in the civil arena) could possibly be seen as the state infringing on their religious beliefs.

Are they wrong? Who knows...until God him/herself comes down and starts explaining things, it will always be about interpretation.

Frankly I don't care about what any church says. I mean, I see this as a step toward tolerance and certainly seems to be more in line with the spirit of the Bible, but churches have a right to construct their own belief system.

It's when religion is used as the sole justification for any civil law that bugs me.

[Sahara]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Actually it's only in black and white a couple of times compared to the hundres of references condeming sex acts etc between heterosexuals.

True enough, but it is there.

The people who use Leviticus as the anti-gay thing have taken it competely out of historical context.

AND they've chosen to heed only that passage. How is that NOT picking and choosing?

Leviticus isn't the only place where we're told about homosexuality ~ far from it, you say yourself, it's there a couple of times. It's there in the New Testament too.

The letter I posted above clearly illustrates how yes, in fact, people ARE picking and chosing which parts of God's word to obey.

No, sorry, but that to me seems completely backwards. The letter you posted is taking Leviticus out of historical context. When God handed down his laws to Moses they were intended to draw his people together ~ and to be honest, many of them were based on common sense. When Jesus came to us he didn't throw the book out the window but he did oppose the way that those laws had been used. Everything had become about ritual and people had lost sight of the most important things ~ love and God.
So Jesus gave us a new commandment -- to love God, and to love one another. Homosexuality directly contradicts love for God, and if anyone wants me to explain why, I will.

I believe what I believe, and I happen to think it's sinful for people to pass judgement on other based solely on who and how they love.

As I've said, it's the act we disagree with, not the person. Whether someone is homosexual or not to a large extent doesn't matter. Being homosexual is not wrong ~ it's the decision (THEIR decision) to act on it and engage in homosexual acts that is wrong.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Sahara

God's word is forever.

Ummm....until the bible gets rewritten and re-edited by the king and whoever else happens to feel like it.