WAS SAY YOU WILL A BOMB? Please Read

[sjpdg]

Was "SYW" a bomb? I don't think so. Million album sales for a 70/80's band (as the B/N incarnation of FM is) don't happen often. Material is an issue. A "double" CD was certainly ambitious and an interesting idea, but over all, I would agree with the band, that it was somewhat disjointed. There are tracks that are clearly Lindsey solo material and tracks that are clearly Stevie solo material. They don't meld into the "FM" that us fans are used to, even with Stevie and Lindsey at the forefront. Christine is definitely a missing element and any contributions she did make prior to the albums release should have been played up, not down. There is an alternate version of "Steal Your Heart Away" where you definitely hear Christine more than on the CD version. Why not play that up to the fan base? "She's not touring with us, but she layed down some great tracks for the album!" would definitely have been a selling point, yes? I mean, I bought it anyway, but had there been more Christine heard, perhaps even some tracks where she sang lead, (and had it not been a "double" album) the album would have sold better, I'd almost guarantee it.

Honestly, there are times I think the band was just over-reaching in an attempt to make up for Christine not recording or touring on "SYW". Overall, it's not a horrible album. It's no "Penguin" (IMHO the absolute worst FM album ever!!), that's for sure!!

As Lindsey has mentioned numerous times, "Rumours" was a 'moment'. It happened, they achieved unbelievable success from it, but it may never happen again. What is important now is, does FM still produce music that its fan base likes, appreciates and buys? I would say the answer is "Yes!"

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Were the eagles doing the Straight-to-walmart-release? that has really worked to their advantage. FM needed to use Thrown Down as the lead single.Period. not Peace keeper (bwa ba ba bwa bwa bwa) It was at a time when people were being obnoxious about ANYONE using the word "peace", it meant you were against the war which for a while was a bit taboo.

Whatever. Marketing, is ALL that music is, now. The Eagles kicked FM's ass to the curb, marketing wise. And doesn't Irving, represent Stevie(or the whole band, .....I couldn't care less, at this point in their oldie's act)? WHO THE F*CK is marketing FM?
Someone, as always, is dropping the ball, in the FM camp.

All the "war" crap argument, sounds like lame excuses, for an album that was too short on good material, and waaaaay too long, on substandard material. Way too long, period.
A FM song, taboo? Really? EXCUSES, IMO.
Flip em over....JMHO.

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by sjpdg

Honestly, there are times I think the band was just over-reaching in an attempt to make up for Christine not recording or touring on "SYW". Overall, it's not a horrible album. It's no "Penguin" (IMHO the absolute worst FM album ever!!), that's for sure!!

I've never really thought about it in that manner, but you're pretty spot on with that observation. At the time, I was extraordinarily excited to see what Buckingham and Nicks would sound like within the confines of Fleetwood Mac without Christine's very pedestrian pop influence. What ended up happening was akin to 2 siblings being left at home alone for the first time while the overbearing mother runs her errands . Stevie and Lindsey were running around screaming at the top of their lungs, pulling each others pig tails and pushing each other down the stairs . I believe it was Stevie who long said that Christine is/was the glue of Fleetwood Mac. And that comment finally made sense to me following SYW. She was the bridging factor between the very manic Buckingham and Nicks. Not only did she make them behave, but there was a middle ground commonality factor in her music.

I am often very hard on SYW, but I feel it necessary to reiterate I think it has some fantastic music on it. I think Stevie's songs such as Illume and Destiny Rules were her best Mac contributions since Gypsy. I think Lindsey's envelope pushing songs like Murrow and Red Rover are positively brilliant. In many ways, some of the tracks on SYW still sound very progressive today. You can't say the same about songs from Stevie's Trouble In Shangri La, for instance (which sounds very dated to me now). My biggest gripe with SYW was it needed to be pared down. There was such a breadth and amount of material that the album just came across as a giant hot mess of battling egos. There was no balancing factor with Christine... who in my opinion bridged Stevie and Lindsey on Tusk, which is often compared to SYW.




PS: I have to disagree with you about Penguin! Yes, it had two of the most giant stinkers in Mac history: I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict, but it also had some truly stellar Christine McVie contributions .

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

FM needed to use Thrown Down as the lead single.Period. not Peace keeper (bwa ba ba bwa bwa bwa) It was at a time when people were being obnoxious about ANYONE using the word "peace", it meant you were against the war which for a while was a bit taboo. now it would be fine. i remember comments on aol musics first listen people were like "take your PEACE somewhere else." which is dumb, cause the lyrics are actually "take no prisoners only kill"

I definitely agree that Peacekeeper was a disastrous choice for lead single. That whole chicken noise was embarrassing to listen to even as a hardcore Mac fan. And you couldn't be more right about what people thought the motives were behind the song. Peace was a very, very dirty word in '03. Use it, and you were called an un-American Commie Hippie Liberal Flag Burning Faggot. Have we all forgotten how when France refused to be involved in the Iraq invasion that Americans retaliated and started calling French Fries "Freedom Fries" etc? What an effing maddening mob-mentality time in history. I do disagree about Thrown Down being a good single, though. I heard it on the radio a couple of times and it just didn't sound good coming out of the speakers. What Fleetwood Mac needed for their lead single was something easily accessible, politically neutral, and instantly recognizable as Fleetwood Mac: Destiny Rules.

I don't know if the whole Wal Mart thing would work for the Mac like it did the Eagles, either. The Eagles are viewed as American as Apple Pie. So is Wal Mart. Fleetwood Mac is not now, nor has ever been, viewed as American or patriotic. The Eagles had such a giant success because they were both of those things, and to boot they have a country flair to their sound. This past decade has been a total renaissance in country and country tinged music. It's suddenly very hot. I'm guessing because Country is a very textbook American genre, and it's a back to roots SUPPORT WAR LIKE TOBY KEITH sign of patriotism. Even freaking Bon Jovi did a country tinged album this past decade, to great success. Fleetwood Mac and especially SYW are about as country as Tupac .

I think we can definitely agree though, that Warner Bros does no favors to Fleetwood Mac or it's various solo artists anymore. I feel they half @ss market the band at best, and are very staid and unimaginative in their approach. Yes, the Wal Mart thing was a home run for the Eagles. But what would work best for Fleetwood Mac? I'm not sure. Perhaps they're more of a Target kinda league .

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I definitely agree that Peacekeeper was a disastrous choice for lead single. That whole chicken noise was embarrassing to listen to even as a hardcore Mac fan. And you couldn't be more right about what people thought the motives were behind the song. Peace was a very, very dirty word in '03. Use it, and you were called an un-American Commie Hippie Liberal Flag Burning Faggot. Have we all forgotten how when France refused to be involved in the Iraq invasion that Americans retaliated and started calling French Fries "Freedom Fries" etc? What an effing maddening mob-mentality time in history. I do disagree about Thrown Down being a good single, though. I heard it on the radio a couple of times and it just didn't sound good coming out of the speakers. What Fleetwood Mac needed for their lead single was something easily accessible, politically neutral, and instantly recognizable as Fleetwood Mac: Destiny Rules.

I don't know if the whole Wal Mart thing would work for the Mac like it did the Eagles, either. The Eagles are viewed as American as Apple Pie. So is Wal Mart. Fleetwood Mac is not now, nor has ever been, viewed as American or patriotic. The Eagles had such a giant success because they were both of those things, and to boot they have a country flair to their sound. This past decade has been a total renaissance in country and country tinged music. It's suddenly very hot. I'm guessing because Country is a very textbook American genre, and it's a back to roots SUPPORT WAR LIKE TOBY KEITH sign of patriotism. Even freaking Bon Jovi did a country tinged album this past decade, to great success. Fleetwood Mac and especially SYW are about as country as Tupac .

I think we can definitely agree though, that Warner Bros does no favors to Fleetwood Mac or it's various solo artists anymore. I feel they half @ss market the band at best, and are very staid and unimaginative in their approach. Yes, the Wal Mart thing was a home run for the Eagles. But what would work best for Fleetwood Mac? I'm not sure. Perhaps they're more of a Target kinda league .

Indeed, if you are not a rap/hip-hop/dance/pop artist today, you pretty much have to decide whether or not you want to sell albums. Country music seems to appeal to that strange demographic that actually still buys physical CDs. What a concept, eh? Buying CDs?!! Who would have thunk that Darius "Blowfish" Rucker would have made this unbelievably successful comeback as a country singer?

But I think it's not just country music, per se. I think it's about appealing to Middle America in general- flyover country. And Wal Mart truly is the most enduring Middle American icon of them all. The Eagles hit paydirt by country-frying some songs AND teaming up with Wal Mart. But what about AC/DC? Their last album Black Ice was also a Wal Mart exclusive, and I believe it was their best selling album ever. Accordingly, I do believe that if FM records an album with a country radio-friendly lead single and signs on to a distribution deal with Wal Mart, it will most assuredly go multi-platinum, especially if they stunt price it at, say, $8.99. I'm sure Stevie has another "That's Alright" or "After the Glitter Fades" sitting in the vault somewhere. I'm sure Lindsey could pick up the pedal steel in no time!

[TrueFaith77]

So much to respond to I don't know where to begin. Great reading, though.

Say You Will should have been a full-out double CD containing most of, if not all, of Gift of Screws and however much more Stevie could have been added (do we know of anything other than Not Make Believe?). I think then it could have been experienced coherently as the adventure it is intended to be. I could care less about sales, btw. Though, as far as marketing goes, even Peacekeeper might have been a solid lead single IF it had featured a kick-butt music video.

As for country-fying their sound... I wouldn't mind. But, of course, I still think the best thing that could happen to Fleetwood Mac would be to bring Iris Dement into the fold.

ETA: I still go on record as considering Say You Will, as it is, the best American album of the 00s.

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

...Peacekeeper might have been a solid lead single IF it had featured a kick-butt music video..

Really? I thought the era of videos was gone. I mean, I feel the videos does not impact or influence on songs success as in the 80s and early 90s.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by Villavic

Really? I thought the era of videos was gone. I mean, I feel the videos does not impact or influence on songs success as in the 80s and early 90s.

Music videos kind of died in the early 00's, but now I hear that videos are back in a big way again thanks to Lady Gaga and A-list celebrity cameos. It's all about cycles, don't ya know.

[elle]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

What ended up happening was akin to 2 siblings being left at home alone for the first time while the overbearing mother runs her errands . Stevie and Lindsey were running around screaming at the top of their lungs, pulling each others pig tails and pushing each other down the stairs . I believe it was Stevie who long said that Christine is/was the glue of Fleetwood Mac. And that comment finally made sense to me following SYW. She was the bridging factor between the very manic Buckingham and Nicks. Not only did she make them behave, but there was a middle ground commonality factor in her music.

I am often very hard on SYW, but I feel it necessary to reiterate I think it has some fantastic music on it. I think Stevie's songs such as Illume and Destiny Rules were her best Mac contributions since Gypsy. I think Lindsey's envelope pushing songs like Murrow and Red Rover are positively brilliant. In many ways, some of the tracks on SYW still sound very progressive today.
...
There was such a breadth and amount of material that the album just came across as a giant hot mess of battling egos. There was no balancing factor with Christine... who in my opinion bridged Stevie and Lindsey on Tusk, which is often compared to SYW.

other than Illume comment, i love almost everything you wrote here.

[elle]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I definitely agree that Peacekeeper was a disastrous choice for lead single. That whole chicken noise was embarrassing to listen to even as a hardcore Mac fan. And you couldn't be more right about what people thought the motives were behind the song. Peace was a very, very dirty word in '03. Use it, and you were called an un-American Commie Hippie Liberal Flag Burning Faggot. Have we all forgotten how when France refused to be involved in the Iraq invasion that Americans retaliated and started calling French Fries "Freedom Fries" etc?

actually, i think that mentality may have started slowly changing at the time SYW came out (although the war started just a month before). remember this was the time of a sudden rise of Howard Dean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Dean? and his main appeal was that he openly criticized starting the war.

lindsey himself said in some interview that b/c of the above, when WB chose peacekeeper as the lead single, they must have known it would hit the nerve. to me, this showed the mac in the new light - finally looking at the world around them, instead of just living in their little self-indulgent inner circle. it showed them as progressive, and not stuck in the love and fairies cycle anymore.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

But what about AC/DC? Their last album Black Ice was also a Wal Mart exclusive, and I believe it was their best selling album ever.

Impossible. Back In Black, is in the top five top sellers, and I believe(yes, I'm too lazy to look it up) has even surpassed Tumours, now.
Okay, I just toppled my laziness. BIB, #5. Tumours, #9. 19 million, vs 22 million.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States

[HomerMcvie]

And doesn't the fact that the band does no songs from SYW, tell you how THEY feel about it???
I mean, they had two minor hits on SYW, but they didn't play them, on their Doggie-style Tour?
SYW, and Time, never existed!!!

[tilthefirefades]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

And doesn't the fact that the band does no songs from SYW, tell you how THEY feel about it???
I mean, they had two minor hits on SYW, but they didn't play them, on their Doggie-style Tour?
SYW, and Time, never existed!!!

Because they play every other song from every other studio album, amirite?

[elle]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

And doesn't the fact that the band does no songs from SYW, tell you how THEY feel about it???

yeah i think that's really sad. they barely played any songs from it even on SYW tour! what was it, SYW, peacekeeper and come while promoting 18 new songs? few times DR and RTTG?

i'd probably decompose your THEY; there are some members of this band that seem afraid to jump into any newer/non-hit stuff... even when promoting the new album, apparently.

lindsey played several SYW songs on his last solo tour though. i'm sure he would have loved to play come on unleashed

[tilthefirefades]

Originally Posted by elle

yeah i think that's really sad. they barely played any songs from it even on SYW tour! what was it, SYW, peacekeeper and come while promoting 18 new songs? few times DR and RTTG?

i'd probably decompose your THEY; there are some members of this band that seem afraid to jump into any newer/non-hit stuff... even when promoting the new album, apparently.

lindsey played several SYW songs on his last solo tour though. i'm sure he would have loved to play come on unleashed

They also played WTWCT, Say Goodbye, and Goodbye Baby. That makes 6 songs if you don't include DR or RTTG since they were barely played. That is no more or less than the average amount of new material they have always played.