Destiny Rules documentary

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

It's played out. Over. Kaput.

Christine's death was the end. The stupid old goat firing Lindsey ended the band for me. Now with Christine's loss, THEY'RE DEAD .

YIPPERS..It played out.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

YIPPERS..It played out.

Many thanks to the stupid old goat for ruining the last chapter of the band of our lives.

[cbBen]

Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams

I think the documentary shows that Stevie got what she wanted with this album. Her favorite Chris Lord-Alge mixed her songs, but she wound up liking Mark Needham's mixes better so she only used Chris Lord-Alge's mix for one song.

Not quite. Lord-Alge mixed one (maybe two) of her songs and she then relented and agreed to go with Lindsey's guy under duress. Stevie didn't choose Needham over Lord-Alge due to preferring the former's results. Rather, she chose not to fight about it with Lindsey and for the sake of social harmony just let him have his way.

I always felt Lindsey's reason for opposing Lord-Alge (at least as he states in the documentary) was a stupid one: that he works fast. So what? I work fast too, because I'm good at what I do and can do a good job fast.

What he could have said instead (and what is probably closer to the truth): As producer, I need the authority to choose and supervise post-production personnel. Perhaps he felt that would have been too politically toxic. I notice on Live At Boston that Lord-Alge mixes Stevie's songs and Needham mixes Lindsey's, just as was contemplated for Say You Will.

A while back I asked here whether, based on the one song on the album Lord-Alge mixed vs. the other songs, who was the better mixer. You all overwhelmingly responded that he was rather than Needham.

Leaving aside 24-Karat Gold, no songs from In Your Dreams would have gone on a longer Say You Will because none were complete at the time other than "Annabel Lee" (the best song on the album), which Stevie had forgotten about and was reminded of during the making of the album. Put that song on Say You Will and make it the lead single and maybe–just maybe–the album fares better.

One job of a producer is to pester relentlessly the songwriter (or the songwriter's staff) for everything in his or her hip pocket. Lindsey should have excavated "Annabel Lee."

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Many thanks to the stupid old goat for ruining the last chapter of the band of our lives.

Rock’s greatest soap opera ended with a plot twist? Who would’ve guessed?

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams

I think the documentary shows that Stevie got what she wanted with this album. Her favorite Chris Lord-Alge mixed her songs, but she wound up liking Mark Needham's mixes better so she only used Chris Lord-Alge's mix for one song.

I also wonder if they did a double album, how many songs would it have been? 30? And would Stevie have brought songs that were on In Your Dreams or 24 Karat Gold to the table for Say You Will?

I think she would disagree with this. She, in the end, was NOT happy with the album and NOT happy with the production of most of her songs. She wasn't especially fond of how Lindsey produced Thrown Down for sure. She would say that she did what she feels she's always had to do with LB as producer and that is compromise to keep the peace and as a result not like some of the results. She's always talked about how when a song is done not to her liking, she just loses interest in it. Or you wish you'd fought harder or whatever. I recall when she later did IYD with Dave she made it a point to say and to have it shown in the doc how much she DID know how she wanted her songs to sound, and added that it was so much easier working with someone (Dave) who didn't take her not taking their suggestions or contributions on a song personally. After SYW she never wanted to record with LB again.

As for her liking Needham's mixes better... she says something to that effect in the doc, but I don't believe her. I think she was just capitulating to make it easier for the band. Especially based on what she said after the album and then the tour for SYW was done. Once she's done her due diligence, been a good soldier and sold whatever is the latest album and tour in all the interviews etc "best ever " blah blah blah, once the money has been made and it's done and dusted, THEN her real feelings come out.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

She wasn't especially fond of how Lindsey produced Thrown Down for sure.

And, she’s wrong on that. The demos were almost as lifeless as “Dreams” until Lindsey did something with them. “Thrown Down” was one of the best on the album.

[UnwindedDreams]

Originally Posted by cbBen

Not quite. Lord-Alge mixed one (maybe two) of her songs and she then relented and agreed to go with Lindsey's guy under duress. Stevie didn't choose Needham over Lord-Alge due to preferring the former's results. Rather, she chose not to fight about it with Lindsey and for the sake of social harmony just let him have his way.

I always felt Lindsey's reason for opposing Lord-Alge (at least as he states in the documentary) was a stupid one: that he works fast. So what? I work fast too, because I'm good at what I do and can do a good job fast.

What he could have said instead (and what is probably closer to the truth): As producer, I need the authority to choose and supervise post-production personnel. Perhaps he felt that would have been too politically toxic. I notice on Live At Boston that Lord-Alge mixes Stevie's songs and Needham mixes Lindsey's, just as was contemplated for Say You Will.

A while back I asked here whether, based on the one song on the album Lord-Alge mixed vs. the other songs, who was the better mixer. You all overwhelmingly responded that he was rather than Needham.

Leaving aside 24-Karat Gold, no songs from In Your Dreams would have gone on a longer Say You Will because none were complete at the time other than "Annabel Lee" (the best song on the album), which Stevie had forgotten about and was reminded of during the making of the album. Put that song on Say You Will and make it the lead single and maybe–just maybe–the album fares better.

One job of a producer is to pester relentlessly the songwriter (or the songwriter's staff) for everything in his or her hip pocket. Lindsey should have excavated "Annabel Lee."

Ok, I'll believe you and stand corrected. In my recollection of the documnentary, I thought she had Chris mix Destiny Rules, Everybody Finds Out, Silver Girl, and Illume which I think were the four songs she did in Phoenix right before coming to meet Mick, John, and Lindsey. And then she decided to keep Chris' mix of Destiny Rules for the album.

As far as not using songs from In Your Dreams for Say You Will, wouldn't Secret Love and My Heart have been completed by 2002?

[cbBen]

Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams

Ok, I'll believe you and stand corrected. In my recollection of the documnentary, I thought she had Chris mix Destiny Rules, Everybody Finds Out, Silver Girl, and Illume which I think were the four songs she did in Phoenix right before coming to meet Mick, John, and Lindsey. And then she decided to keep Chris' mix of Destiny Rules for the album.

As far as not using songs from In Your Dreams for Say You Will, wouldn't Secret Love and My Heart have been completed by 2002?

Maybe you're right about it being four songs. As I recall it (perhaps wrongly), the agreement was for Lord-Alge to mix one or two songs of hers and then perhaps more, but she relented after the one or two and agreed to Needham.

As for "Secret Love" and "My Heart," I didn't know they were pre-2002 songs. If they are, I'm the one who must stand corrected.

[cbBen]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

As for her liking Needham's mixes better... she says something to that effect in the doc, but I don't believe her. I think she was just capitulating to make it easier for the band. Especially based on what she said after the album and then the tour for SYW was done. Once she's done her due diligence, been a good soldier and sold whatever is the latest album and tour in all the interviews etc "best ever " blah blah blah, once the money has been made and it's done and dusted, THEN her real feelings come out.

As evidenced by Live In Boston, where she has Lord-Alge mix her songs while Needham mixes Lindsey's.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Rock’s greatest soap opera ended with a plot twist? Who would’ve guessed?

We could have had one final album from the band, if it weren't for her.

[Macfan4life]

Are we forgetting. We got the best quote from this documentary that is used all the time on this board: Would you say that to Bob Dylan?

Looking back I wish Christine was allowed to partake in the SYW sessions even though she would not tour. But I completely understand why they were not crazy about that idea. Fleetwood Mac was trying to be relevant in they are a band still creating new stuff. Members that are half in sort of dissolves that premise a bit. But we did get a sensational solo album by Chris the next year.

Yes we are all bitter. Stevie put up with all this drama for decades. She could not have done it for one more album and tour? They dont even see each other on the road except on stage. The silliest and stupidest firing in rock history since Sammy Hagar.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

We could have had one final album from the band, if it weren't for her.

We did. Did you really miss her on LBCM?

That said, they could have put “Miss Fantasy,” “Without You,” “Sad Angel,” and “Not Make Believe” on the album, dubbed in Christine, and released it as Fleetwood Mac “On With The Show” in late 2017.

[UnwindedDreams]

Originally Posted by cbBen

Maybe you're right about it being four songs. As I recall it (perhaps wrongly), the agreement was for Lord-Alge to mix one or two songs of hers and then perhaps more, but she relented after the one or two and agreed to Needham.

As for "Secret Love" and "My Heart," I didn't know they were pre-2002 songs. If they are, I'm the one who must stand corrected.

I think Say You Will was one of the Phoenix four songs and not Illume, so my bad. But I think Destiny Rules was the only one mixed by Mr. CLA.

I thought the Lord-Alge decision was because of his price as in I thought Lindsey wanted Needham because his fee was less than Lord-Alge's.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams

I think Say You Will was one of the Phoenix four songs and not Illume, so my bad. But I think Destiny Rules was the only one mixed by Mr. CLA.

I thought the Lord-Alge decision was because of his price as in I thought Lindsey wanted Needham because his fee was less than Lord-Alge's.

Lindsey felt Needham was more creative, and actually thought about the songs he was mixing, rather than the production-line (no pun intended) approach of CLA, who is in high demand and thus needs to crank each song out within..what was it, like 4 hours? So that way he could presumably finish 2 a day and fit in all his clients... So basically LB felt like CLA wasn't doing anything creative or unique for a given song but rather giving it the cookie-cutter CLA treatment, whereas Needham really crafted each song to what suited it best. Recall how LB was impressed with how Needham fit in the "together, together, together" vocal with Lindsey's trademark twinkly guitar sound on his mix of Thrown Down. Honestly my sense with Stevie is she wants to make sure her vocals are loud and upfront. That was the thing that really struck me when BD came out... how way out in front of the rest of the tracks her voice was, giving it a somewhat harsher effect, compared to where they put her in the mix on the FM albums up to that point. Compare the official mix of Silver Springs to the remixes later where they pull the louder, stronger vocal out (her preference). One thing I loved (and others often don't) is how upfront Sharon and Lori's harmonies are on BD. As she did more albums, their vocals got further back as well, and hers even more upfront. "I wanna be a staaarrrr....I don't wanna be a cleaning lady"

[RockyRaccoon]

Maybe a little off-topic but I wish somebody would have convinced Lindsey to slow down "Say Goodbye" or even re-record it as a proper duet with Stevie (I think she just put her vocal on top of his solo recording) and make it sound closer to the live arrangement.