Honestly, now that Obama is the nominee........

[strandinthewind]

Careful there - if you say blacks voted for Obama because he is black and/or if you are white and espouse any guff on Obama, you likely will brand you a racist these days And, the reverse is not true., which, in my book, is racism as well.

As for Obama - I voted for him in the GA primary because his platform most clearly tracks what I believe. As we have discussed to death in the Hillary thread, the facts clearly indicate Obama is a comparative political neophyte who the press has given a free pass. While I think Hillary was the more electable choice, I will vote for Obama, even though I think he mostly is full of shiitte when he talks about change (again, which politician doesn't talk about change )

In the end, I hope I am wrong.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by LukeA

Oh, and if you consider yourself a Democrat, yet would rather vote for McCain, than Obama- guess what. You're not a real Democrat, and you'd rather stomp your feet and exhibit your sour grapes rather than vote/work to help advance this country for the better of the common (Democratic belief) good.

Do you have a grip on political reality? Obama isn't any more a "democrat" than McCain is. Listen to what he says and what he stands for.

[HejiraNYC]

I have given some thought to this recently (believe it or not!), and I have come to the following conclusions:

-I no longer consider myself a Democrat. At least the "new" Democratic party as it exists today, which, as Donna Brazile so notoriously pointed out, is comprised only of blacks and upscale white liberals. As much as I would like to say that I left the Democrats, in reality they left me. They have also become a party that rewards under-handed Karl Rove-ian tactics and has shown time after time how spineless they have become, as evidenced by the outrageously anti-American ruling by the RBC on May 31. The Democratic majority in congress has been completely useless, Pelosi is a total failure as senate majority leader (what about that Bush impeachment, Toots?) and Howard Dean is a complete moron.

-My beliefs tend to track more along the lines of what is now considered Libertarian- minimal government intervention, socially very liberal, fiscally very conservative- positions that are somewhat at odds with Obama's stand on the issues.

-As nice as all of Obama's plans seem to sound, I really have not heard how we are going to pay for any of this. I have no reason to believe that Obama has even the foggiest idea about basic economic principles, which leads me to believe he is the second coming of Jimmy Carter. At least Hillary offers some broad outline of how things would be funded, and she does have the advantage of being connected to Bill, who managed to eke out a 500 billion dollar budget surplus by the end of his term.

- Speaking of Jimmy Carter, I can't get beyond this image of Obama being the same kind of wet dish rag when it comes to foreign policy. I could easily see how Obama would allow an Iran hostage situation to drag on for years with no resolution- his record has shown him to be a person who is hesitant about taking a firm stand on an issue, a malignant pacifist and a person who will do or say anything to get what he wants, no matter how damaging it may be to others.

-In the sum total of things, you are defined by the company you keep. I think we all know the deal with Obama.

At the end of the day, I think Obama's "cinching" of the nomination is a tainted victory- by the electoral votes that were basically handed to him from MI. Only in some dictatorship would a person get votes from an election they didn't run in. And the caucuses were completely rigged (e.g., busing thousands of voters in from out of state, where voter IDs were not checked, etc.). And Hillary did win the popular vote. How very un-democratic of the Democrats. It is an utter disgrace, and it's sad that they have turned into a bunch of weak, indecisive, morally bankrupt elitists.

My main problem with McCain is his party affiliation. But at least he has a track record (unlike Obama) of not always voting with his party, so he isn't just blowing hot air when he says that he is different from Bush. He actually acknowledges global warming and the need for energy independence- and actually voted against Bush's ludicrous energy bill (which Obama voted for, BTW). He actually acknowledges gay rights and voted against Bush's proposed constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, which, like Obama and Clinton, he believes should be decided at the state level . He does not come across as some kind of freaky evangelical (ala Huckabee), and he does not come across as some kind of hypocrite (ala Obama); he's been fully vetted after decades of public service. Regarding Roe v. Wade, the GOP has had decades to overturn this, yet they haven't. Considering all of the crap that's going on in the world today, I do not think a sh*tstorm like removing abortion rights is going to be a top priority any time soon; my feeling is that it is just one of those overplayed wedge issues that gets the right wing stirred up every election cycle. But ultimately, if Ann Coulter hates him, it means that he's probably a pretty decent guy... on some level.

Also, since it appears that both the House and the Senate are going to have a pretty significant Democratic majority under the next president, I am a bit concerned about giving the Democrats too much power, which could be just as bad as giving the GOP too much power. My main concern is that every manner of bailout, payout, subsidy legislation (which the Dems love) is going to be passed unhindered, taxes will be raised and our debt will increase even more. The most recent example of this was that idiotic housing bailout bill sponsored by Barney Frank, which would have passed if it wasn't for the wise (I can't believe I'm saying this) veto by Bush. In 8 years of being president, that is the one and only thing he did correctly. Anyway, my sense is that a Dem-controlled congress along with a GOP-controlled executive branch *may* be necessary in order to keep some semblance of checks and balances. This could help to prevent some really wacky legislation from going through.

So there you have it- if it's not Clinton (and she's still technically running ), then it's McCain for me.

[strandinthewind]

McCain is no bird's nest on the ground, to wit:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/John_McCain.htm

At least Obama has a better voting civil rights record, to wit:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Barack_Obama.htm

For that reason alone, I am voting for Obama, despite his glaring flaws, which are many, and that fact that my BS detector vibrates so wildly when he speaks that I am considering marrying it.

[rubytuesday]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

[font="arial"]which leads me to believe he is the second coming of Jimmy Carter.

Here's hoping! Someone who is admirable an advocate for human rights negotiates peace instead of dominating the world into hatred of America, and someone who at the most basic level recognises that there's a whole world out there and the rest of us can have as much impact upon america as americans can themselves. All that bull**** talk about national security....put someone in charge who is willing to talk with Iran and that's a small step but it would go so much further to national security than anything in recent years. America is as unsafe as it has ever been and i think obama is the first step in any hope of reversing that.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

[font="arial"] . . . In 8 years of being president, that is the one and only thing he did correctly . . . .

Actually, there were others, like when he did not repeal Clinton's Executive Order prohibiting discrimination against gays in the Fed. workplace, despite what I am sure was wildly heated pressure to do so.

Here are some others that are mostly correct:

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/pro...Done-Right.htm

I do not like the guy, but facts are facts.

[BombaySapphire3]

fAnyone who is remotely moderate should really wait to see who McCain picks as a running mate before they consider voting for him ...imagine if he picks a wingnut like Huckabee ..a fanatic in sheep's clothing or even Romney ..they would be one 70 something man's heartbeat away from the Presidency.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by rubytuesday

Here's hoping! Someone who is admirable an advocate for human rights negotiates peace instead of dominating the world into hatred of America, and someone who at the most basic level recognises that there's a whole world out there and the rest of us can have as much impact upon america as americans can themselves. All that bull**** talk about national security....put someone in charge who is willing to talk with Iran and that's a small step but it would go so much further to national security than anything in recent years. America is as unsafe as it has ever been and i think obama is the first step in any hope of reversing that.

I think his point was that Carter was, by pretty much all acoounts, completely ineffective as a President, despite his altruistic goals and his effectiveness since.

As for the rest of the world hating America - I have been abroad pretty much every year since 9/11 and very few that I spoke to hated America. Many hated Bush though. I also think it is interesting that people say they hate America, but then bitch and complain when America does not provide them with relief from natural disasters and the like; America almost always leads the way in these situations.

Also, I think invading Afganistan and capturing and/or killing many terroroists went miles further than talking to Iran in some benign way, esp. when Iran's leader is a known liar and despite W's failure to reach any conclusion in Afganistan - this is the underlying flaw of W's administration. There is a valient initial effort with no coherent or well planned follow up. Again, if America and ousted SH with an all out invasion and then got Iraq up and running in a year (which was possible), would 95% of those currently complaining still be complaining - I say no.

In the end, America is flawed and has done some bad things, but it is still the undisputed leader of the free world, the world turns to it for money and guidance, and it provides relief for many nations. I think that pisses people off.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by BombaySapphire3

fAnyone who is remotely moderate should really wait to see who McCain picks as a running mate before they consider voting for him ...imagine if he picks a wingnut like Huckabee ..a fanatic in sheep's clothing or even Romney ..they would be one 70 something man's heartbeat away from the Presidency.

I agree. The sad thing is that I think McCain is a decent man who is not a liar. I cannot vote for him though and, instead, will vote for Obama, who I think is a liar. Oh politics!

[rubytuesday]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

As for the rest of the world hating America - I have been abroad pretty much every year since 9/11 and very few that I spoke to hated America. Many hated Bush though. I also think it is interesting that people say they hate America, but then bitch and complain when America does not provide them with relief from natural disasters and the like; America almost always leads the way in these situations.

I've lived in countries that aren't the US every year since I was born and most don't hate Americans, I'm very friendly with a few myself but whenever people ask them where they're from they have their standard joke response "I'm American, but nobody's perfect". If you think much of the world does not hate America then you must have forgotten about sept 11 already and thats just one giant example instead of pointing out the continued hatred that does not make the news daily. I think people have a right to complain if america does not provide relief. Like I'd be making a stand if the countries I'm from didn't contribute. Maybe that's why they might hate america, if there ignored by them and don't receive relief. Anyway I don't think they lead the world. America is last or near last on the list of western countries foreign aid. They give a lot but you can't expect a country of 6 million to match the contribution of America. If you look at the statistics america is far below the world leaders, I think last.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

In the end, America is flawed and has done some bad things, but it is still the undisputed leader of the free world, the world turns to it for money and guidance, and it provides relief for many nations. I think that pisses people off.

yeah sure that's what pisses people off. that is such a naive view of the world. I think there's a little more too it than that. It's like saying the arab nations of the mimddle east are just jealous cause israel has more friends....and a better night club scene. jeez. believe what you want its not even an opinion its a fact that that is not why a lot of world hates america.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by rubytuesday

Here's hoping! Someone who is admirable an advocate for human rights negotiates peace instead of dominating the world into hatred of America, and someone who at the most basic level recognises that there's a whole world out there and the rest of us can have as much impact upon america as americans can themselves. All that bull**** talk about national security....put someone in charge who is willing to talk with Iran and that's a small step but it would go so much further to national security than anything in recent years. America is as unsafe as it has ever been and i think obama is the first step in any hope of reversing that.

Well, as someone who had to endure the Carter years, please take him off our hands! How would you have felt to be one of those hostages held in Iran for... hundreds of days? If you think the U.S. dollar is weak now, it was literally worth less than toilet paper back then ($900 per oz. of gold in 1979 dollars!), energy crises, 16% interest rates, etc. At best Carter brokered a tenuous peace between Israel and Egypt... but how can you praise that without realizing that he sent the U.S. into a tailspin financially? I don't think anyone could reasonably expect someone who has had zero international experience and zero military experience to be able to somehow ensure that we (and our allies) will be safer and more secure. I mean, I can go around saying that I hate war, I love to talk and hold hands, but does that mean I am somehow a master diplomat and commander in chief? The fact is, I have only 13 months less experience in the U.S. senate than Obama.

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

As for the rest of the world hating America - I have been abroad pretty much every year since 9/11 and very few that I spoke to hated America. Many hated Bush though. I also think it is interesting that people say they hate America, but then bitch and complain when America does not provide them with relief from natural disasters and the like; America almost always leads the way in these situations.

But you're American. I don't think you're going to get the same view as someone actually living in another country looking in. And to be fair Strand, a lot of that "America is the the undisputed leader of the world" arrogance is the exact reason why people hate the US.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by BombaySapphire3

The Clintonian era of the Democratic party is over .

Don't bet on it.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Oh good lord, if only oprah had indorsed Hillary.

I know. She lost a good share of her audience when she endorsed him.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by DavidMn

I talked to a friend of mine that is a Libertarian, but a thoughtful political thinker. He thinks The Obama/McCain vote will be much closer than alot of people think. The reason: because Obama is African-AMerican, and my friend told me whether or not SOME people will admit it, they will not vote for him for that one simple reason. So let me ask the question that needs to be asked, whether we all like it or not. Do you agree with my friend and why,or do you not agree and why?

There is no doubt in my mind that people will vote both for and against Obama because he is African American.