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  #61  
Old 03-12-2012, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by sharksfan2000 View Post
Slipkid, I've read the accounts too. Still doesn't mean that they are true (conspiracy theory or not). The first account of it, as far as I can tell, appears in Bob Brunning's book - and all other accounts are clearly based on that one (including Martin Celmins' version). And the account in Brunning's book comes from Clifford Davis! So Brunning and Davis are now the authoritative sources for info on the band? And not as if Davis had any reason to build up another Peter Green myth... There are elements of Davis' story as written in Brunning's book that are extremely hard to believe, and in my view they cast doubt on the whole account.

I've never read an account by anyone else who claims to have been at that show who has repeated the four-hour "Black Magic Woman" jam story - though if I've missed one someplace, I'd love to see it. But with only Clifford Davis' story to base it upon and without some independent account of this incident, I still have major doubts as to whether it really happened.
There is a fan account of Peter Green jamming for three hours on one song with the Allman Brothers at the NO Warehouse 11/70. That's why I believe the BMW story. There are also liner notes from a 2 CD FM collection of outtakes that Danny Kirwan tried to brain Peter Green with a beer bottle out of pure frustation after the concert. I think that came from that BMW jam.

Bob Brunning knows Peter Green "changed" when he went to visit him around late 1971. He brought tapes of his Brunning Blues Band, that Peter had played with in 1969. Peter Green did not want to hear it! He just wanted to go to the local pub. The trigger happened AFTER Fleetwood Mac.

In Peter's case, he was never a true acid casualty. He was just depressed, because he felt the burdon of ripping off authentic American black blues musicians. Which is silly compared to Jimmy Page. What a waste.

Last edited by slipkid; 03-12-2012 at 01:24 AM..
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  #62  
Old 03-12-2012, 07:50 AM
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I'm too lazy to read this whole thread () so apologies if someone has already referenced Micks book:

"Peter Green arrived two days after we appealed to him. Right away he let us know what he was willing to do. Our set now consisted of Black Magic Woman and about ninety minutes of free form jamming. We had no choice..."
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  #63  
Old 03-12-2012, 09:50 AM
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I do not have the answer to this, but The Fillmore East more often than not had an early and late show 7 0r 8 Pm and 11, or midnight show. The Band of Gypsies Album on the inside cover show the clock on the wall inside the auditorium as Jimi Hendrix celebrated the New Year there (1970) That was his second show that night. It could be that Fleetwood Mac had to get off so the late show could start again. Bill was a stickler if it meant paying customers

vinnie c
Excellent point, Vinnie - I had not considered that they could have been finishing up an early show there. But if that was the case and Bill Graham had really wanted them to get offstage so he could get more paying customers in for a late show, I'm sure that he would have gotten them to leave the stage, one way or another!
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  #64  
Old 03-12-2012, 10:01 AM
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I'm too lazy to read this whole thread () so apologies if someone has already referenced Micks book:

"Peter Green arrived two days after we appealed to him. Right away he let us know what he was willing to do. Our set now consisted of Black Magic Woman and about ninety minutes of free form jamming. We had no choice..."
Yes, I've read that...and it repeats virtually word for word what is written in a late-'70s book about band ("Fleetwood Mac: Rumours n' Fax" by Roy Carr and Steve Clarke):

"Mac made do with a set thrown together - "Black Magic Woman," an hour's jamming and the occasional vocal from Danny and Christine."

No mention as to the source of that info, though a couple of quotes about that tour from John McVie follow this in the book. The set description pretty much matches with the few recordings from parts of several gigs that have survived from that tour. No mention of a single four-hour long jam though, either in this book or in Mick Fleetwood's.
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  #65  
Old 03-12-2012, 10:38 AM
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There is a fan account of Peter Green jamming for three hours on one song with the Allman Brothers at the NO Warehouse 11/70. That's why I believe the BMW story.
I'd be far more inclined to believe that account than that of Fleetwood Mac jamming for four hours on one song. Jamming with the Allman Brothers, Peter Green would have been able to share the load of playing, not having to bear much or most of the lead work himself. Jamming was never a strength for Danny Kirwan, and listening to Fleetwood Mac's jams on "Rattlesnake Shake" or "Coming Your Way", he could tend to get into a rut with his playing (as could Peter on occasion). As you well know, the Allman Brothers, along with a handful of other bands, were known for very long jams - Fleetwood Mac never were known for jams of great length. The longest surviving jams we have from the band were about 1/2 hour - perhaps the snippets we have from the early '71 tour jams come from significantly longer sessions, but we don't really know. Could they have managed a single four-hour jam? Sure, it's possible but I still have my doubts.

I guess I'm just a "non-believer" about this story, based on it coming from a single account from what I feel is a questionable source, so unless another source can be found for this event taking place, I'll just leave it at that.
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  #66  
Old 03-13-2012, 12:36 AM
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I'd be far more inclined to believe that account than that of Fleetwood Mac jamming for four hours on one song. Jamming with the Allman Brothers, Peter Green would have been able to share the load of playing, not having to bear much or most of the lead work himself. Jamming was never a strength for Danny Kirwan, and listening to Fleetwood Mac's jams on "Rattlesnake Shake" or "Coming Your Way", he could tend to get into a rut with his playing (as could Peter on occasion). As you well know, the Allman Brothers, along with a handful of other bands, were known for very long jams - Fleetwood Mac never were known for jams of great length. The longest surviving jams we have from the band were about 1/2 hour - perhaps the snippets we have from the early '71 tour jams come from significantly longer sessions, but we don't really know. Could they have managed a single four-hour jam? Sure, it's possible but I still have my doubts.

I guess I'm just a "non-believer" about this story, based on it coming from a single account from what I feel is a questionable source, so unless another source can be found for this event taking place, I'll just leave it at that.

It was a much different (and much better musically) time then. 1) Peter Green was in complete free-form wah-pedal jam mode. 2) There was no time limit for concerts at the Fillmore East. When the Allmans' played the last concert at the Fillmore East, they ended at dawn. 3) Not every FM concert post Spencer with Green as a sub had a BMW jam.

According to what's been written, Peter Green stayed in the shadows playing rhythm guitar for FM to fill in for Jeremy Spencer for a couple of weeks. Danny Kirwan took all the solos, and that was it. Then came the Fillmore East show. Green steps to the front, makes himself known, and thus the infamous BMW jam. This is not impossible to believe if you are a fan of those bands from the "hippie ballroom circuit". If you're not, you need to wrap your head around a time that really happened! Back then McVie, and Fleetwood were stallions (a rhythm force)! Maybe it was two, three, or four hours. Whatever the case, it was a VERY long jam. Which is why I think Danny Kirwan tried to hit Peter Green in the head with a glass beer bottle after the show, out of pure frustration! That account is not from Clifford Davis.

Last edited by slipkid; 03-13-2012 at 12:45 AM..
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  #67  
Old 03-13-2012, 07:03 AM
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Probably not a popular view, but listening to a two hour jam would probably feel like four. It didn't matter if PG is the best guitarist in the world or not, there is only so much of that kind of thing you can take.

Every time I listen to End of the Game, I think about all the other things I could be doing like visiting the dentist or pulling out my fingernails with pliers.

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  #68  
Old 03-13-2012, 09:10 AM
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Probably not a popular view, but I could visit the dentist or pull out my fingernails with pliers.

I don't like these either
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  #69  
Old 03-13-2012, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by chriskisn View Post
Probably not a popular view, but listening to a two hour jam would probably feel like four. It didn't matter if PG is the best guitarist in the world or not, there is only so much of that kind of thing you can take.

Every time I listen to End of the Game, I think about all the other things I could be doing like visiting the dentist or pulling out my fingernails with pliers.

...better get ready to flee the kitchen ... some people may want to throw you in the 'fiery furnace' for saying this!
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  #70  
Old 03-13-2012, 10:30 AM
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Which is why I think Danny Kirwan tried to hit Peter Green in the head with a glass beer bottle after the show, out of pure frustration! That account is not from Clifford Davis.
Yes, the beer bottle story originally came from Nigel Watson, and we have only his opinion as to why Danny did it...whether or not that came from anything Danny said at the time, we have no way of knowing. But I imagine that the whole band must have been frustrated at not being able to perform more of their current numbers and perhaps at having to take a back seat to a former band member for much of those shows, even if it was the band's founder. Both stories are said to have happened during the band's gigs at the Fillmore East (they played more than one night there), so they could have happened on the same night or on different nights. But single four-hour jam or not, Danny's frustration might well be understandable. Who knows, the rest of the band might have felt like hitting him with a bottle too!

Here's a thought for some discussion. Based on how things played out, the assumption has always been that the band would have canceled the rest of their tour if Peter (and Nigel) had not flown in to join them. But could they realistically have continued the tour as a four-piece? Obviously Danny was not comfortable being a front man but Christine might have been able to handle fronting the band at that point, for the remaining few weeks of the tour anyway. So could they have functioned that way or would it have turned out like Spinal Tap without Nigel Tufnel?
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  #71  
Old 03-13-2012, 02:29 PM
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and didn't Bill Graham, being a shrewd operator with an eye to the future ,arrange for everything to be recorded whether the bands knew it or not- hence the Wolfgang's Vault archive ? Having said that, they seem to be adding new stuff all the time (or are they just recyling old material ?)
Some of the WV stuff is maybe from Graham's archives. But they also download collector's uploads from torrent sites, and claim the recordings as their own.
They bought some Mac tapes from Dinky Dawson though.
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  #72  
Old 03-13-2012, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sharksfan2000 View Post

Here's a thought for some discussion. Based on how things played out, the assumption has always been that the band would have canceled the rest of their tour if Peter (and Nigel) had not flown in to join them. But could they realistically have continued the tour as a four-piece? Obviously Danny was not comfortable being a front man but Christine might have been able to handle fronting the band at that point, for the remaining few weeks of the tour anyway. So could they have functioned that way or would it have turned out like Spinal Tap without Nigel Tufnel?
Hm, good question. Perhaps there were contractual issues with the promoter - maybe the tour would have been cancelled without Peter's intervention.
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  #73  
Old 03-13-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremy spencer View Post
...better get ready to flee the kitchen ... some people may want to throw you in the 'fiery furnace' for saying this!
i sat through quite a few of those jams and some of them did get tedious at best

some were marvelous when on lsd
but listened to years later, spotty and so so
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  #74  
Old 03-13-2012, 10:01 PM
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Default but while in hell

still in all, it was a creative time, and those who jammed were trying to find some hidden magic in the collective collaborative experience. as a young player I was also seduced by this environment. i do not know if it made any better of a musician, but i somehow thought i listened better and reacted better playing. who knows? i hoped that the creative force would channel through me through my guitar. jamming was the vehicle to induce the spirit.
coltrane wrote of this. i believe it is true. is it from god? I don't know, I only feel
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  #75  
Old 03-14-2012, 12:50 AM
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Probably not a popular view, but listening to a two hour jam would probably feel like four. It didn't matter if PG is the best guitarist in the world or not, there is only so much of that kind of thing you can take.

Every time I listen to End of the Game, I think about all the other things I could be doing like visiting the dentist or pulling out my fingernails with pliers.

"I'm So Afraid" live outdoor, 1976? Really? JS warned you!

Since you don't like "End of the Game", do you own Miles Davis' "Bitches Brew"? That could explain it.


Maybe I get "End of the Game" because I was a 1970's British prog rock fan twenty-five years ago when the majority of American high school morons followed REM, and U2.
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