Bobby Hunt & Doug Graves

[Mr Scarrott]

Does anyone have any opinion about whether these two were official members of the band, however briefly, in 1974? There seems to be a bit of ambiguity about this- in Mick's autobiography for example he talks about the band having "personnel spasms" (or at least I think that was the phrase). They aren't listed as members in the booklet that accompanies the Chain , however.

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by Mr Scarrott

Does anyone have any opinion about whether these two were official members of the band, however briefly, in 1974? There seems to be a bit of ambiguity about this- in Mick's autobiography for example he talks about the band having "personnel spasms" (or at least I think that was the phrase). They aren't listed as members in the booklet that accompanies the Chain , however.

Rolling Stone Nov 74:

"...But the real Fleetwood Mac is accenting the future – and right now that's the tour, a 43-date swing that ends December 1st – with yet another addition, Doug Graves on keyboards."

The question remains though, were they ever told "you're in the band" or were they told "we are hiring you for this tour"?

We will never know because Fleetwood will only tell us the story that he wants us to hear. Apparently if you have been keeping up with other threads on here, he might want us to forget that whole period between PG and SN & LB.

EDIT:

Mick's book says "We had some personnel spasms when we added a keyboardist, a black guy who was a friend of Bob, but he didn't last long. Then, to fill out the sound, we added another keyboardist in the person of Doug Graves, who'd been an engineer on Heroes. He was better, and didn't last either."

Poor old Robert Hunt, isn't named, is referred to simply by the colour of his skin, and to top it all off it is suggested he wasn't particularly that good.

[HomerMcvie]

I don't think they were ever consider "members". Since they were down to a 4 piece, they were just added for the tour, to flesh out the sound.

[Mr Scarrott]

Thanks for your input. Somehow, Mick's take on it in his book leads me, fwiw, to think that they were considered to be "members" of the band at the time, rather than backing musicians (like Nigel Watson, Brett Tuggle, Asante, Steve Thoma amongst others) albeit just for parts of the Heroes tour. That they never recorded anything with the band muddies it slightly.

I guess part of the problem is that there is also a distinction between who was ever legally part of the band, rather than simply artistically- presumably like Brunning, Vito, Mason, Bramlett and maybe Burnette, Weston & Walker. I don't suppose that even Nicks and Buckingham were legally part of the band, rather than hired hands right from December 31st 1974. They were put on a salary, weren't they?

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by Mr Scarrott

Thanks for your input. Somehow, Mick's take on it in his book leads me, fwiw, to think that they were considered to be "members" of the band at the time, rather than backing musicians (like Nigel Watson, Brett Tuggle, Asante, Steve Thoma amongst others) albeit just for parts of the Heroes tour. That they never recorded anything with the band muddies it slightly.

The tour poster that I've seen just uses the back sleeve picture from HAHTF.

I guess part of the problem is that there is also a distinction between who was ever legally part of the band, rather than simply artistically- presumably like Brunning, Vito, Mason, Bramlett and maybe Burnette, Weston & Walker. I don't suppose that even Nicks and Buckingham were legally part of the band, rather than hired hands right from December 31st 1974. They were put on a salary, weren't they?

I look at it like a law firm. There are para legals (i.e. Tuggle, Heywood, et. al.) and attorneys, which are divided into associates (Mason, Bramlett, Burnette, et. al.) and partners (Mick, John, Christine, et. al.).

[wetcamelfood]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

The tour poster that I've seen just uses the back sleeve picture from HAHTF.


I look at it like a law firm. There are para legals (i.e. Tuggle, Heywood, et. al.) and attorneys, which are divided into associates (Mason, Bramlett, Burnette, et. al.) and partners (Mick, John, Christine, et. al.).

Yeah so Hunt & Graves were the para legals. S&L were on a salary to start but were considered members. After the legal stuff it's understandable them being afraid to trust others (and that's probably why they made it out to them like it was a temp to perm thing), but they knew they could survive as a quartet, and let's be honest, that was the intention once Welch left and they tried to initially get (just) Lindsey. I think Bob said at his Q&A that he did have the option of staying with S&L joining but he chose not to. So the "partners" must have drawn that line in the sand, 4 minimum members, but more is OK (i.e. when they brought in extra hands e.g. Danny, Walker, etc.).

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by wetcamelfood

S&L were on a salary to start but were considered members.

They started out as associates and became partners in the firm.

but they knew they could survive as a quartet, and let's be honest, that was the intention once Welch left and they tried to initially get (just) Lindsey. I think Bob said at his Q&A that he did have the option of staying with S&L joining but he chose not to.

Not necessarily. I think Mick wanted to ask Lindsey to join even before Bob left the band. I think he felt, based on what he heard in "Frozen Love," that Lindsey's playing style would be a great fit for the band.

Then Bob left and finding another guitarist became a necessity, and that's when he got Lindsey (and Stevie by default). It would seem reasonable that after Stevie and Lindsey were on board, Mick gave Bob another chance to reconsider leaving (hey Bob, look, we have a new guitarist and girl singer...wanna stay), but Bob said no.

I'd be curious as to what conversations happened from December 1, 1974 (last HAHTF show) through February 1, 1975.

So the "partners" must have drawn that line in the sand, 4 minimum members, but more is OK (i.e. when they brought in extra hands e.g. Danny, Walker, etc.).

That's something that Peter Green started when he asked Jeremy Spencer to join the band. Peter didn't want to be the lone frontman, and thus the band's never had one.

[Mr Scarrott]

There's some evidence that the band had made it known when they were performing that Doug Graves was a member of Fleetwood Mac in 1974- listen to the announcement at the start of this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMnRXv9ljaw

Maybe Pete Frame should update the family tree? Or maybe not...

Sorry, don't know how to embed the video.

[sharksfan2000]

Not that Wikipedia is always the most reliable source, but their entry on Fleetwood Mac includes an interesting late-'74 quote from Doug Graves:

After Warner Bros. made a record deal with the real Fleetwood Mac, the quartet released Heroes Are Hard to Find in September 1974. For the first time in its history, the band had only one guitarist. On the road, they added a second keyboardist. The first was Bobby Hunt, who had been in the band Head West with Bob Welch back in 1970, and the second was Doug Graves, who had been an engineer on Heroes Are Hard to Find. Neither proved to be a long-term addition to the line-up, although Graves was preparing to be a full member of the band following the US tour in late 1974. At the time he said:

I'm looking forward to adding something to this already great band; I helped engineer their album 'Heroes Are Hard to Find' and got to know each member well. It came to me as a shock when Mick asked me to join but I am enjoying playing live with the band, and hopefully will start a new studio album with the band soon.
—Doug Graves, Melody Maker 26 October 1974

However, Graves did not ultimately join full-time and Welch left soon after the tour ended (on December 2, 1974), having tired of the touring and legal struggles. Nevertheless, the tour enabled the Heroes album to reach a higher position on the American charts than any of the band's previous records.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by Mr Scarrott

There's some evidence that the band had made it known when they were performing that Doug Graves was a member of Fleetwood Mac in 1974- listen to the announcement at the start of this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMnRXv9ljaw

Maybe Pete Frame should update the family tree? Or maybe not...

I think they just wanted to introduce the people playing the show. Don Kirshner introduced them as the ORIGINAL Fleetwood Mac.

Remember, they were trying to reestablish that they (Mick, John, Christine, and Bob) were indeed the REAL Fleetwood Mac.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by sharksfan2000

Not that Wikipedia is always the most reliable source, but their entry on Fleetwood Mac includes an interesting late-'74 quote from Doug Graves:

Never saw that before. I wonder if he was really asked to become a member and the others changed their minds, or if he just misunderstood the situation. It seems odd that the band would add somebody and it not be in the music magazines, even in 1974. Even Stevie and Lindsey joining got mentioned. I'd love to read the article in full.

[aleuzzi]

Was Bobby Hunt the keyboardist responsible for the amazing organ work on "Believe Me" during the Sausalito session? If so, he is waaaaaaaaaaaay more than merely Bob's black friend, Mick Fleetwood.

[sharksfan2000]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Never saw that before. I wonder if he was really asked to become a member and the others changed their minds, or if he just misunderstood the situation. It seems odd that the band would add somebody and it not be in the music magazines, even in 1974. Even Stevie and Lindsey joining got mentioned. I'd love to read the article in full.

Well, there's a copy of that issue on eBay if you're interested:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MELODY-MAKER...item4d177000d8

[SteveMacD]

I don't know that I'm THAT interested, although I'd be curious to read Bill Bruford's review of Santana.

[Mr Scarrott]

It's not Don Kirshner doing the announcement in the clip I mentioned above

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMnRXv9ljaw

He says "and tonight we're very happy to present Mick Fleetwood, John McVie, Christine McVie, Bob Welch & Doug Graves- in other words the real Fleetwood Mac."


I can't make out what he says his name is. Can anyone make it out or recognise the photo?