STYLIST article on Christine Doc

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by Macfan4life

I smell what you are cooking but Out of the Cradle could have had 3 top ten hits easily. Very radio friendly mainstream pop

And it was probably the most successful. But, he didn't come out of the gate trying to sell albums like let's say a Jimmy Iovine did for Stevie.

I think Lindsey cares about the music more than the business. If he was trying to sell albums in 1981 he had a funny way of showing it.
Keep in mind, I love most of his solo material.

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

I think Lindsey cares about the music more than the business. If he was trying to sell albums in 1981 he had a funny way of showing it.

Yeah--one of his goals was estrangement. Those first two solo albums were deliberately provocative in different ways. LAW AND ORDER in particular courted the ingratiatingly weird. Bands like the Talking Heads had a shocking impact on him. But, in a defensive way, so did acts like Ambrosia and Steeley Dan: he insisted on separating himself from the slick LA studio sound. "I don't want to compete with Christopher Cross" he said in a 1980 (or '81) interview.

Meanwhile, Stevie was building a feast from the fumes of the Eagles and Christine was trying to make Robbi Patton into another Robbie Dupree.

[Macfan4life]

I think some of you are over playing Lindsey's philosophy. Everyone wants to be successful and acknowledged. Lindsey has frequently agreed with the questions why as the producer of FM he is so successful but it does not translate to his solo career.
Its very sad and depressing on Lindsey's behind the Music that was shot right after Out of the Cradle came out about him wanting to tour. You can see how sad he is that he had to curtail his tour he hoped would happen. He played Chicago and a few other dates? He clearly wanted to go on the road and promote his album.
When I saw Lindsey last year (front row), his attitude on stage was that of someone just starting out and so eager. He really loved playing off the crowded and gave 100% playing to exhaustion.
Stevie's huge solo success really bothered him in the beginning. He was the one that turned her songs into hits. Now she was on her own hugely successful.

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by Macfan4life

I think some of you are over playing Lindsey's philosophy. Everyone wants to be successful and acknowledged. Lindsey has frequently agreed with the questions why as the producer of FM he is so successful but it does not translate to his solo career.
Its very sad and depressing on Lindsey's behind the Music that was shot right after Out of the Cradle came out about him wanting to tour. You can see how sad he is that he had to curtail his tour he hoped would happen. He played Chicago and a few other dates? He clearly wanted to go on the road and promote his album.
When I saw Lindsey last year (front row), his attitude on stage was that of someone just starting out and so eager. He really loved playing off the crowded and gave 100% playing to exhaustion.
Stevie's huge solo success really bothered him in the beginning. He was the one that turned her songs into hits. Now she was on her own hugely successful.

I don’t think we’re overplaying his goals. He’s never made a secret of going for the edgy or riskier option on the solo albums, especially the first two, where he had something to prove. By the time OOTC came around he was ready to welcome a bigger market—and it didn’t come. He didn’t have that star appeal (on his own) that Stevie has. THIS bothered him, especially since he propped up her FM songs and made them the iconic hits they are.

But FM without him is a sad, embarrassing state. They were interesting before him but since him they’ve plainly needed him around.

[nicepace]

This is just my opinion and I don't expect many people to agree with me. I never saw the appeal of Stevie as a solo artist. In fact, although I enjoyed some of her songs, I generally ranked her songs in FM as my least favorite on any given album. I thought her stage persona was silly and over the top. This was true even when I first saw them, in 1975. I loved the band and the chemistry among the five, but was amused by all the young women going nuts over Stevie.

For me, the biggest drawing card of FM was always Christine: the first woman to sing lead, write her own songs, AND play an instrument in a rock/pop band. This is one of the reasons I've always liked the 5 "Bob Welch era" albums the best. Her keyboards are so much more prominent on those records than on the "Buckingham era" albums.

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by nicepace

This is just my opinion and I don't expect many people to agree with me. I never saw the appeal of Stevie as a solo artist. In fact, although I enjoyed some of her songs, I generally ranked her songs in FM as my least favorite on any given album. I thought her stage persona was silly and over the top. This was true even when I first saw them, in 1975. I loved the band and the chemistry among the five, but was amused by all the young women going nuts over Stevie.

For me, the biggest drawing card of FM was always Christine: the first woman to sing lead, write her own songs, AND play an instrument in a rock/pop band. This is one of the reasons I've always liked the 5 "Bob Welch era" albums the best. Her keyboards are so much more prominent on those records than on the "Buckingham era" albums.

I'll admit, from ages 10-12 I was pretty much smitten with Stevie. I dug her voice but much of my interest had to do with her appearance. Then, sometime around 1982 or so, I heard "Say You Love Me" blaring out of my older brother's stereo. It was on the radio and though I'd heard the song before this was the first time I really HEARD it. I was so in awe of Christine's voice, I resolved in that instant to get my hands on everything she had sung to that point. I never looked back.

Christine plays a lot of keys on Fleetwood Mac and Rumours, though her work is often mixed down (especially on Rumours). I've heard isolated instrumentation for "Rhiannon" and "Gold Dust Woman" and was surprised at how full and creative the keyboard parts are--but because of the mix we just don't hear them as clearly as the guitar. They are a texture, a layer of sound.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

I'll admit, from ages 10-12 I was pretty much smitten with Stevie. I dug her voice but much of my interest had to do with her appearance. Then, sometime around 1982 or so, I heard "Say You Love Me" blaring out of my older brother's stereo. It was on the radio and though I'd heard the song before this was the first time I really HEARD it. I was so in awe of Christine's voice, I resolved in that instant to get my hands on everything she had sung to that point. I never looked back.

Christine plays a lot of keys on Fleetwood Mac and Rumours, though her work is often mixed down (especially on Rumours). I've heard isolated instrumentation for "Rhiannon" and "Gold Dust Woman" and was surprised at how full and creative the keyboard parts are--but because of the mix we just don't hear them as clearly as the guitar. They are a texture, a layer of sound.

Just listen to the demo version of Never Make Me Cry
She often got robbed live and otherwise.

[nicepace]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

Christine plays a lot of keys on Fleetwood Mac and Rumours, though her work is often mixed down (especially on Rumours). I've heard isolated instrumentation for "Rhiannon" and "Gold Dust Woman" and was surprised at how full and creative the keyboard parts are--but because of the mix we just don't hear them as clearly as the guitar. They are a texture, a layer of sound.

It seems that making the keyboard parts into a "layer of sound" has cheated us Christine fans out of something we would have really enjoyed, and probably robbed Christine of the recognition she should have received as the really fine keyboard player she is at her best.

I think I'm objecting to the entire style of Fleetwood Mac production in the Buckingham and post-Buckingham era. I know her keys are more prominent on the five Bob Welch era albums and on the 'Fleetwood Mac' album than they ever were again (except on some of her own songs and the rare ballad where the keys were a lead instrument). Her keyboards are not used enough on 'In the Meantime' and they're definitely not used enough on 'Buckingham McVie'.

I know Christine herself has spoken of her keyboard playing as "part of the rhythm section," but I really dislike this characterization. Can it possibly be true that Christine has never felt confident of her own keyboard playing? What other explanation can there be for this production style that submerges her keyboards under a layer of sound?

[Macfan4life]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

I don’t think we’re overplaying his goals. He’s never made a secret of going for the edgy or riskier option on the solo albums, especially the first two, where he had something to prove. By the time OOTC came around he was ready to welcome a bigger market—and it didn’t come. He didn’t have that star appeal (on his own) that Stevie has. THIS bothered him, especially since he propped up her FM songs and made them the iconic hits they are.

But FM without him is a sad, embarrassing state. They were interesting before him but since him they’ve plainly needed him around.

I was referring to the "Lindsey does not care about record sales" Everyone cares about success and wants to know there is a market for their talent.
While I agree the Rumours success was too much for him. But I think his feelings about that are noble but I think he jumped the gun. While Rumours was hugely successful and commercial but it was not their intent to be so commercially successful. I get his anti-corporate rock motto.
But the lack of commercial success his solo career definitely used to bother him. Not sure about today. I'm not saying he was in competition with Stevie. But I bet if his solo career had taken off, he may have never come back to the Mac.
So the "overplayed" comment was someone (cant remember who) referring Lindsey did not care about record sales. I get what they are saying but that's way over played. When you spend so much time making an album you definitely want people to buy it and come see you play.

[aleuzzi]

^^^^^^^^Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

[elle]

Originally Posted by Macfan4life

I get his anti-corporate rock motto.
But the lack of commercial success his solo career definitely used to bother him. Not sure about today. I'm not saying he was in competition with Stevie. But I bet if his solo career had taken off, he may have never come back to the Mac. .

that's interesting thought - you mean during Tusk time or during OOTC time? during OOTC time definitely. during Tusk time, i never thought about it, but you are probably right. and would have been way better outcome for him, probably.

and, i have no doubt Stevie and Lindsey were in never ending competition, solo and for the power in the band. if you were at any Mac show somewhere upfront in the last decade, you would see their competition as light as a day, if you were observing them.

after SYW, during UTS time, i think Lindsey has made peace with not having commercial solo career, and that competition stopped from his side. that said - any artist wants people to hear their music. so yes, i'm sure he wants audience to be there and hear what he has to say. but he's done with wanting arena-sized audiences and huge sales for solo stuff.

what is really bizarre to me, is that after she has effectively won their FM power struggle and should now be done and enjoy her victory, Stevie seems to still be in some kind of weird "i will end you and always one-up you" competition with Lindsey... like, of all NYE televised events, why ask Lindsey's friend Keith Urban to join his NYE event? why not join her friend Sheryl on ABC / in NoLa, or someone else? she won, she never has to be on the same stage with him anymore - now she needs to move on and enjoy time she still has.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

And it was probably the most successful. But, he didn't come out of the gate trying to sell albums like let's say a Jimmy Iovine did for Stevie.

If he was trying to sell albums in 1981 he had a funny way of showing it.

That’s true. And he seemed downright ashamed of Trouble, the mandatory single.

I think he clearly craved success, but he wanted it on his terms. He thought he could convert people and somehow change the definition of “radio friendly.” It wasn’t that he had no interest in sales. He was hoping to sell something more innovative and unique, but could not.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by michelej1

That’s true. And he seemed downright ashamed of Trouble, the mandatory single.

I think he clearly craved success, but he wanted it on his terms. He thought he could convert people and somehow change the definition of “radio friendly.” It wasn’t that he had no interest in sales. He was hoping to sell something more innovative and unique, but could not.

That's really what I was getting at. And I think his frustration came more out of people not getting his vision. (like the masses, Ken, etc.) Add a little jealousy for his ex lover's massive commercial success and viola!!! You have an artist that keeps trying to create something on his/her own terms.