Did you get any LB stuff for Xmas? - Page 2

chiliD · #16 12-30-2002, 01:43 PM

No, didn't get any Mac related stuff for Christmas, and to be honest, didn't really WANT any either.

Just to add my 2-cents on Lindsey's solo albums:

"Law & Order"---quirky in a similar vein to "Tusk" (in fact, I think they should've made "Tusk" a single album, then Lindsey should've released "L&O" as a double album...but that's just me)

"Go Insane"---great songs all the way through, but, OMIGOD does it have a dated '80's sound...only "Loving Cup" seems to transcend the "datedness".

"Out Of The Cradle"---a masterwork that was released about 3 years too late. Had THIS been released instead of "Tango In The Night", Lindsey's solo career might've taken off to new heights and we wouldn't be shaking our heads at how "underrated" Lindsey's been.

Mac Fan · #17 12-30-2002, 02:45 PM

Thanks for posting that, ChilliD. Can you lot please stop talking about Lindsey's albums? I already know which one I'm getting, just have to wait for my mum to order it.

Johnny Stew · #18 12-30-2002, 03:26 PM

*sighs*
Around and around we go... where it will stop, nobody knows.

Quote:

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Expendable? Certainly not. You must have been thinking of most of Stevie's solo stuff.

I just have to get this off my chest... and forgive me, folks....
I have no idea why I am not allowed... by certain people, at least... to say anything in regards to Lindsey (well, anything that isn't unbridled praise, that is), without a dig being made at Stevie Nicks.

Yes, it's very clear that I'm a major Stevie fan. I think that's understood by all. However, I am also a FLEETWOOD MAC fan.
I have all the albums, from 'Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac,' thru 'Bare Trees,' and 'Heroes Are Hard To Find," onward to 'Behind The Mask,' and 'Time," etc., etc.
Does that make me better than anyone else? Hell no.
It merely means that my fandom is not the least bit one-sided.

I have the utmost respect and appreciation for each and every member of the band. Sure, I have my favorites and my least favorites, but the last time I looked, I'm allowed that right.

I should also add that I'm a LINDSEY BUCKINGHAM fan.
Yes, you heard right.
I own all of his albums, and his guest appearances.
Back in 1992, before our cable company carried VH1, I begged my uncle to tape Lindsey's Center Stage appearance so I could see it... and then weasled him into taping another VH1 spotlight on Lindsey.

I like Mr. Buckingham... I like his guitar playing... I like his singing... I like his production... I like his quirkiness.
Does it always appeal to me in a major way? No, not always.
But I feel that he's an extremely talented man, and often unfairly underrated.

I like to think that I can speak fairly knowledgeably about ALL aspects of this band, and not just ONE member... and hopefully (most) people respect that.
So... I think it's perfectly within my rights to say that I feel a song such as "Love From Here, Love From There," or hell, even "Johnny Stew," is expendable.
I never said I didn't like those songs, or the others on 'Law And Order,' and 'Go Insane'... only that they're not all songs that I would ever consider to be essential to anyone's listening experience.
I even pointed out that it was just MY opinion... and one certainly won't find ME forcing MY opinion down anyone's throat.
Though I will always take full advantage of my right to express said opinion.

I just find it terribly baffling, and not the least bit ironic, that if my every post doesn't find me worshiping at Lindsey's feet, then the snide remarks about Stevie won't be far behind.
I guess I missed the memo that said anyone who considers themselves a fan of Stevie Nicks is not capable of rational thinking, or a thought-process of their own.

And so ends my rant. My apologies to Tuigirl, for temporarily hijacking her thread.

Johnny Stew

seteca · #19 12-30-2002, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tuigirl
I can't believe it.....my kids who listen to Linds with great reluctance, (mainly in a car speeding down the motorway!) today declared that Play in the Rain part II,was a "cool" song AND that Go Insane was "more interesting than any of his other albums!"...Will wonders never cease!

Well your kids obviously have very good taste, and a sharp ear for music!!

CarneVaca · #20 12-30-2002, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
*sighs*
Around and around we go... where it will stop, nobody knows.I just have to get this off my chest... and forgive me, folks....
I have no idea why I am not allowed... by certain people, at least... to say anything in regards to Lindsey (well, anything that isn't unbridled praise, that is), without a dig being made at Stevie Nicks...

Damn, Johnny, don't hurt yourself! I could go on and on about how many times jokes I have made on these boards were misconstrued, and even got me in trouble, but hey, then people might think I'm just whining. I'm sorry you don't recognize a joke when you see it.

In fairness, however, I think if you come on this board to say that two thirds of Lindsey's solo work is expendable, it is reasonable to expect a reaction. Yes, it is your opinion and you have the right to express it, but that doesn't mean I (or anyone else) has to agree. If I recall, the question was about whether you got any Lindsey-related gifts for Christmas. You chose to go off on a tangent and say most of the man's solo work is only good enough to throw away. I'm sure that if one of the Lindsey fans made a statement on the Stevie board that two thirds of her solo work is expendable, he/she would be crucified. And you know it.

So let's all just take a deep breath and move on.

tuigirl · #21 12-30-2002, 07:07 PM

..Wer'e NOT going down that road again are we ????

...oh and Seteca, I'm thinking my kids DO have good taste (obviously all in their upbringing..hahahaaa )

David · #22 12-30-2002, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I have no idea why I am not allowed... by certain people, at least... to say anything in regards to Lindsey (well, anything that isn't unbridled praise, that is), without a dig being made at Stevie Nicks. I just find it terribly baffling, and not the least bit ironic, that if my every post doesn't find me worshiping at Lindsey's feet, then the snide remarks about Stevie won't be far behind.

I would have to conclude that these conflicts which erupt among Mac fans are inevitable. I've been on the Internet for 10 years; I started reading the World Wide Web a few years after it was born. The opinionated stand-offs predate the Internet, too. I remember passing around mimeographed lists among large groups of fans via the mail while we were waiting for the first Stevie Nicks album to get made. Arguments were shrieky & constant back then, as well. It's always been this way---it's human nature. You can find the same harshness & acid among the fans of movies or books or brands of breakfast bar. I think I'm inured to most of it; even when it cuts pretty deep & it's leveled at me, I just play it out like a verbal game. We don't know exactly why someone feels a certain frustration when another person says he likes or dislikes something. No one knows what triggers it, but something *is* triggered. In person, people might rub you the wrong way because of the way they comb their hair; on the Net, it's their way with words & their opinions in their posts. Since you will never "fix" others of getting annoyed over some opinion or style---or fix yourself, either---I guess the next best thing is to employ various techniques for hiding your annoyance so that you don't alienate everyone or hurt anyone. Really, if you think about it, it's exactly the same thing as getting along with family.

Setting up a message board with all these fans posting to it so that everyone is consistently polite & reasonable & ultrafair is a dear, sweet thought. Peace on earth is a dear, sweet thought, too. But it's a pipe dream---an ideal. You can strive for ideals, but you never reach this type of ideal. It's too unreal. Mick Fleetwood sets up a message board with someone to rule with an iron hand (the guy even dresses his icon in medieval armor & wields a broadsword), & you still get flareups & petty annoyances manifesting themselves on a fairly regular basis. Some of you belong to that Enchanted mail list, which is heavily moderated, & that list is legendary for its squabbles & discord. You don't need to go all the way to unmoderated Usenet to find plenty of examples of this; it's all over the place. There is no forum on the Net that is wholly free of discord, regardless of the amount of moderation & maturity & good intentions & ... well, prayer.

I can't remember what my point is anymore, except that I have always thought it was cool & worthwhile & essentially valuable for people to hash things out in forums like this. If you feel persecuted, as Johnny Stew did, say so (as he did). It feels good. When it comes to Fleetwood Mac, I have many unpopular opinions that get me in hot water with other people here. All I really want is a minimal amount of civility in the skuffle, just to keep cogent points in the argument (too little civility & the discussion is no longer entertaining to large numbers of people). Just keep the argument pretty cool & it can still make for a good read. Of course, the moderator or board owner will have the final say as to what is allowed to pass & what is deleted. But that's almost always case by case, despite the desire to adhere to overarching principles.

So what do you guys all think? You know, I look back at this post in the preview feature, & worry that it's too long & windy.

chiliD · #23 12-30-2002, 07:49 PM

Well...yeah...if your post was a city, it would be Chicago.

Johnny Stew · #24 12-30-2002, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I'm sorry you don't recognize a joke when you see it.

Sorry if the punchline to that one escaped me... but I'll be sure to not take you seriously in the future.

Quote:

Originally posted by CarneVaca
In fairness, however, I think if you come on this board to say that two thirds of Lindsey's solo work is expendable, it is reasonable to expect a reaction.... You chose to go off on a tangent and say most of the man's solo work is only good enough to throw away. I'm sure that if one of the Lindsey fans made a statement on the Stevie board that two thirds of her solo work is expendable, he/she would be crucified. And you know it.

I can understand how one might take offense with my comment (which really was just that, and not a "tangent" at all), if such comments about Lindsey were the only things I ever contributed to these boards... but that's certainly not the case.

And yes, I am guilty of going off-topic, but that momentary lapse was not without precedent in this thread... so I didn't think I was out of bounds.
Regardless, I did (and still do) apologize to Tuigirl for that.

As far as how well similar comments would, or wouldn't, go over on the Stevie Forum... I think it's pretty safe to say that such statements have been made there countless times, and I haven't seen any crucifixions yet.

David... thank you for your comments. I always appreciate your insights.
I'm certainly no stranger to being criticized for my musical tastes (try being a major Mac fan in the late '80s, when all of your peers are ga-ga over Guns 'N Roses & Metallica!), and I usually let things roll off my back... but I noticed a trend developing around here, so I thought I'd voice my displeasure with it.
And I'm glad I did (again, with all apologies to Tuigirl).

Anyway, there are no hard feelings on my part ("life's too short to play in those kinds of games...."), and it's water under the bridge.

Johnny Stew

tuigirl · #25 12-31-2002, 07:03 AM

..No need to apologize so much, just say what you want .

I got cheesed off recently and got blasted ( thanks ChiliD), but it dosn't bother me..besides I can always jump off the thread and come back later, when it's all died down, it's not like we know each other personally, now is it ...wer'e all just a bunch of names with our own opinions about a common subject

. ..I agree with David, every once in a while it feels great to let off a bit of steam at those whov'e cheesed you off...let it go and start again. Lets start a new thread......

CarneVaca · #26 12-31-2002, 09:21 AM

Guys, some of you are taking this way too seriously, starting with Johnny's verbal roll of the eyes about my comment. Johnny, I'm not sure what trend you're talking about, and your feelings of persecution are a little puzzling to me, especially since you are a moderator and thereby wield a level of authority on these boards that most of us don't have. That would be akin to a corporate vice president complaining about his staff persecuting him/her, even though he/she has much more influence in the company than the staff does.

Johnny, you had to know that "expendable" was going to raise brows, and your preface to your statement with "I hate to say this" indicates you knew it. Reasonable people who make statements that are bound to elicit certain responses ought to be able to accept the replies. That's just what happens in discourse, as David wisely pointed out.

Though you claim there have been no "crucifixions" of those who have criticized Stevie, I would remind you that I myself have been the target of rather violent responses when I have made certain comments about Stevie. Go to the "What Makes Thrown Down" thread and you will see some of it, although in that particular thread the response was mild enough. Go to the "Set List" thread and you will see an especially violent response to my use of levity in suggesting the set list for the upcoming tour consist only of Lindsey songs. I wonder if you and your fellow moderators took appropriate action there. I guess I'll never know because you guys are always so secretive about such things.

Look, I don't even mind the hot-headed responses. What I mind is that the powers that be won't allow me to defend myself when that happens. And that is patently unfair. If you get attacked by a madman wielding a knife, aren't you going to defend yourself with whatever means you can? If those who use self-defense were prosecuted along with the attackers, justice would be a strange beast. Yet that is what happens on these boards. It effectively shuts down discourse. And that is what bothers me.

Johnny Stew · #27 12-31-2002, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Johnny, you had to know that "expendable" was going to raise brows, and your preface to your statement with "I hate to say this" indicates you knew it. Reasonable people who make statements that are bound to elicit certain responses ought to be able to accept the replies.

Yes, i was completely aware that someone else might join the thread, and express an opinion different to mine. I welcome that, and that's never been a problem for me.

The only thing I took umbrage to, was that it often appears to me, that those who are pigeon-holed as "Stevie fans," can't state an opinion about Lindsey (one that isn't 100% flattering, that is), without a negative comment then being volleyed at Stevie.

For many of us, it's not a Stevie VS. Lindsey, Us Against Them, kinda thing.
For me personally, it's never been a "what I like is better than what you like, so I'm going to tear you down" situation. Some things appeal to me, and some things don't.
Pure and simple.

So I hope that I can make a statement such as "That's not one of my favorite Lindsey songs," without someone then saying, "Lindsey is better than Stevie."
It doesn't need to... and shouldn't have to... always come back to that.
That's all I was trying to say.

Quote:

Originally posted by CarneVaca
your feelings of persecution are a little puzzling to me, especially since you are a moderator and thereby wield a level of authority on these boards that most of us don't have.

I've never felt like some power-wielding big-wig, I've always felt like a "Ledgie."
Nothing more, nothing less.
And I think that all the moderators feel the same way I do: We're a part of the gang... we just also have to act as peacekeepers sometimes.

As far as your wonderings about what action we took in regards to the recent scuffle... I don't really want to get into this debate again, but I will say that we always take appropriate action whenever a situation arises.

As you know, we've always felt that if we discussed it with anyone else, then it would be unfair, and the potential would then be there for someone to become an outcast... which we don't want.
So even if someone has crossed a line, we still try to handle things as fairly to them as humanly possible (while simultaneously never being unfair to the "victim" in the situation).

I realize that this policy isn't satisfactory to you, but all we've ever asked, is that everyone trusts us to handle things when there's a problem.

And in regards to being attacked by a madman with a knife... I should hope you'd fight back, since that is a life or death situation.

When it comes to type-written words on a message board, we feel that "two wrongs don't make a right"... so we ask that you let us handle it.

Ok, I'm not going to discuss this anymore, or perpetuate these age-old arguments. I just wanted to speak my peace.
So on with the show....

(By the way.... Tuigirl, thanks for being understanding.

)

Johnny Stew

Street_Dreamer · #28 12-31-2002, 05:50 PM

What happens is and from what I have experienced and have come to realize is that Lindsey fans get tired of Stevie fans who think that Stevie IS Fleetwood Mac while Stevie fans get tired of Lindsey fans telling them that Lindsey was the person who gave Fleetwood Mac its sound and without him Stevie, nor Fleetwood Mac would have been successful.
The truth is this: Stevie IS the face of Fleetwood Mac, whether Lindsey fans like it or not. She is easily the most recognizable face of Fleetwood Mac and her songs are the ones that fans came to love. However, without Lindsey, the sound of her songs would not have been what they were and without Lindsey, she most likely would not have wrote the songs that she did.
The same goes for Lindsey too. Without him, Fleetwood Mac wouldn't have had its sound or production value on its albums. If he didn't have Stevie at his side, especially after Buckingham Nicks was dropped from Polydor, Lindsey wouldn't have had somebody to lean on during the tough times.
In the end, Lindsey needed Stevie just as much as Stevie needed Lindsey. One is just as important as the other and without either of them Fleetwood Mac just wouldn't have been the same. People take the "Stevie vs. Lindsey" thing WAY too seriously! Did I get way off topic? I thought that that's what this was going to lead to so I thought I'd just throw my opinion out there.

Matt