Holy sheet...I want this!!!

[GardenStateGirlie]

Originally Posted by skcin

I know! Someone tell Carol Ann to cut it out!

High in her life...obsessive was her love...

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Lux

Obviously I've become invisible.

I think that making money with his work is wrong. The guy who offered "Gift of screams" on ebay with the crazy song titles and the hysterical LB grafic annoyed me a lot. But to share the GOS songs for free that were in circulation on audiogalaxy was never a problem for me. Yes, it may be selfish but:
LB has taken 11 years to then not release his new CD. Exactly the same happens right now. He speaks about a solo album and a soundstage DVD that sure as hell both will never see the light of the day. A lot of his GOS songs didn't make it on the SYW album because Stevie was involved. I never would have heard DOR for example. So- would I break in his house and steal his masters? No. Would I try to listen to the songs once they are available? Yes. He should go and release his music- I`ll certainly buy it. If he doesn`t- well that`s the way to go for me.
Hopefully the songs from this ebay CD appear soon on the net.

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by Lux

This of course was all under the assumption that it isn't approved by him. My confusion is in regards to why nobody else has even addressed that in any small way. Did it not cross anybody's mind or are we too wrapped up in what we can take from him without even a moment's thought for him as person? I don't expect your desire for the music to diminish nor do I expect to change your minds, but I was surprised to not see even a slight consideration for a the matter.

While I agree none of us has a right to this music if Lindsey hasn't approved its release, if Nancy wins this auction it will be distributed among the FM community for free and these guys trying to make money out of Lindsey's work will have less chance of selling their illegal wares.
It probably doesn't justify it, but I do know, that although I have Gift Of Screws through downloading it illegally, I would buy that sucker in a second if Lindsey were ever to officially release it and I think most people here would too.

Nancy,
stop bidding right now!!! You're jacking up the price! It would be better to wait until the end of the auction.

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by Lux

This may be true that it is better to be in her hands than in the hands of some money-maker, but it's still only the lesser of two evils. Although the word 'evil' might be a slight exaggeration, it's obviously not the end of the world. However don't assume you're being ethical by distributing it for free, the only ethical thing to do would be to not defy Lindsey's wishes and return it to him or simply sit on it without distributing. Of course the winning bidder could approach his management and find out whether he approves of the release and distribute it or not depending on the outcome. To me that would be the ethical thing to do.

You're right of course but, like you said it's the lesser of two evils.

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by Lux

It is the lesser of two evils but as I mentioned, there is a third option. The person who wins the bid has the power to change it into the ethical solution by returning it or facilitating the other methods I mentioned in the previous post.

Is that what you'd do?
You're a better person than me then, especially if I had paid out $150 for it.
I think the best option would have been for no one to bid on it at all, then the seller can't make a profit. But that isn't going to happen.

I want to hear the tracks too much to be honest. If that makes me a bad person that so be it. I am bad. But I still think I'm better than those making a profit from his music. I know if it were my music being sold on eBay, I wouldn't blame the person buying it so much as the person selling it.

That said. If this is a legitimate promo, then those get sold all the time. They're not supposed to be sold, but most record companies know it happens and turn a blind eye to it. I used to work at a magazine where the reviews editor would have bags of promos of albums he was sent every week and he just sold them for cash to the local record shop. I don't actually agree with that, but it happens. I get sent free stuff too but I tend to give it to my friends, I think it's wrong to sell it, but that's just me.

[GardenStateGirlie]

IMO, Lindsey doesn't have a hope nor a prayer when it comes to WB/Reprise releasing him as a solo artist. As much as we love him and think that his work is nothing short of amazing, he's not viable. In the days of the Britney Spears and Ushers, he's not a hot commodity in the eyes of the label. I tend to think we will never see the release of any more from him unless it's with Fleetwood Mac in 2006 OR he decides to go ahead and create his own label as an outlet for himself (and perhaps then for other artists too).

After giving it much thought and in light of the girls answers recently (Sharon and Lori, which I take with much consideration and whom I hold a great deal of respect for), when it comes to Lindsey, I don't feel terrible about a group of fans willingly buying a demo tape containing 4 songs...two of which have not been formerly released. With GOS and even with this small batch of songs, I do not feel it's done him any disservice. In fact, it's done the opposite as far as i'm concerned. It's only HIS FANS that are going to want to buy his album to begin with because no one is willing to take a chance on him and market what he's offering. Thusly, when it comes time for his album to be released (if it's ever released) the fans are STILL going to buy it. We'll want it for our collections...for the insert...for the lyrics. We're harcore dorks, guys and the last thing we would EVER want to do to Lindsey would be to dick him out of money that is deservingly his. But, we won't do that...because we'll STILL buy the album anyway.

Take Fleetwood Mac and Stevie for example. How many friggin' greatest hits compilations can they possibly release with the same songs over and over again? And you know what? We buy them all...because we adore the work they do and we love the music (and again, that whole collection obsession).

So, in conclusion of this very long-winded post, I don't think us buying this demo tape will in any way, shape, or form hurt him in any way. It's his demos that have kept us all interested for years and have held us in anticipation for an album we may never receive. JMO.

[GardenStateGirlie]

Originally Posted by Lux

You guys are missing the point. I agree that it's great to hear the demos but there's one clause and that involves the release being with his permission. This is not about how well he'd sell in the market. It's not about us doing him a favour by getting his music out to his fans (unless he approves of the sale in which case it may be). It's not about your individual morals relating to the fact that it won't prevent you from purchasing anything he might subsequently release. That's got nothing to do with it. The point that makes all of that irrelevant is that it's his property and if he does not approve of it being distributed then tough titties folks, that's his right to not have it distributed. I don't know how many ways I can say this but your desires for it and justifications relating to your fandom etc do not matter in this situation of stealing and unauthorised distribution (assuming that's what it is).

The other posters' complete lack of consideration for his position in this did make bidding on this (with a few others) tempting. However I'm in no financial position to be doing so when his management, upon failing to legally stop the sale, could simply just purchase it back. If I did purchase it then there's no way I'd distribute it without seeking approval and if it weren't granted I'd return it, rid of it or whatever was necessary. That's not saintly, it's just showing an ounce of consideration for his work. As I said before, if it's not a concern of his then everything I've said can be deemed irrelevant but this is an unauthorised sale so as yet we can only assume it is against his wishes. My intention is not to deny the fans his music (which they are not owed simply because he choses to take his time), my intention was to atleast address the possibility that to purchase and spread is to aid in stealing and going against his will (again, if that's what it is).

Lux, you know I adore the quicksand you walk on but I don't think we're missing the point at all. We're taking into consideration what you say and I, for one, don't agree. It's about having a differience of opinion. If that makes the large number of us willing to front money to purchase this **** fans, so be it. Then we're **** fans. We've spent a ton in the past few years on merchandise, concert tickets, etc. He has gotten nothing but love and adoration from us and will continue to have such. The fact remains is we don't know how it got out there. He could have easily WANTED it there. We don't know and we won't know. To my knowledge, through the years he has tried but is unable to get this material released because he isn't marketable yet he's not yet bold enough to take a risk and put it out on his own. Do you think he does all this work to leave on tape and have no one hear it ever? He's been trying to for YEARS and where did his seven years worth of work on GOS go? Fleetwood Mac. Where will everything else go? Fleetwood Mac, and it seems as though the next album will be a "from the ground up" deal so he'll have new songs, I bet. If I may ask, do you listen to the GOS demos? Will you listen to these when they're distributed, without cost, to the fans in this community? That makes you just as "guilty" as the rest of us i'm afraid.

[David]

Originally Posted by Kelly

All the GoS songs were leaked through ebay.

No, a batch of those songs (Twist of Fate, Red Rover, Gift of Screws, Say Goodbye, etc.) were posted as free MP3 downloads on a popular Stevie site in 2001, & they were put up there because the solo album had been aborted & there were no plans at that time to make an FM album. It was only later that some bootleggers took those MP3s & auctioned CDs of them with goofy titles. It's not a major distinction, but it is a distinction -- they were free initially.

Still, Lux is right that it's completely unauthorized (like the Shangri-La unreleased songs) & it's an infringement of copyright. There's no getting around it. All bands contend with this copyright infringement in dozens of forms. It will ever stop. Look what Dylan did: released a legitimate collection of "basement" tapes that were already in the hands of Dylan fans.

If Stevie wants to put the kabosh on leaks of her unreleased material (or even leaks of her soon-to-be-released material), she would need to:
1. Stay out of recording studios
2. Avoid letting engineers, producers, friends, family & "staff" have or even hear her tapes-in-progress
3. Avoid sharing any of her work-in-progress with anyone at any record company
4. Erase all rough takes on tape
5. Avoid using any other musicians (or somehow make sure they can't get any tapes from the sessions ) -- but even then how could she prevent a session player from bringing in his own Sony recording Walkman & taping a session?

As you can tell, that's totally impractical (or impracticable).

But what the fans do is copyright infringement, no doubt about it.

[Kelly]

[QUOTE=David]No, a batch of those songs (Twist of Fate, Red Rover, Gift of Screws, Say Goodbye, etc.) were posted as free MP3 downloads on a popular Stevie site in 2001, & they were put up there because the solo album had been aborted & there were no plans at that time to make an FM album. It was only later that some bootleggers took those MP3s & auctioned CDs of them with goofy titles. It's not a major distinction, but it is a distinction -- they were free initially.

I thought there was an auction for cassettes on ebay several years ago that was stopped for awhile and eventually the guy got the auction through? Is that wrong? I always assumed, maybe incorrectly, that the person who purchased the cassettes, transferred them and put them up for free download. similar to what Nancy will do if she wins.
Still, Lux is right that it's completely unauthorized (like the Shangri-La unreleased songs) & it's an infringement of copyright. There's no getting around it. All bands contend with this copyright infringement in dozens of forms. It will ever stop. Look what Dylan did: released a legitimate collection of "basement" tapes that were already in the hands of Dylan fans.

[AliP]

Originally Posted by Kelly

I thought there was an auction for cassettes on ebay several years ago that was stopped for awhile and eventually the guy got the auction through? Is that wrong?

I know that the person who first distributed the cassette which later became known as the Village Recorder demos was a friend of Cheri Caspari. Once she realized how huge the demand was for these demos, she began to sell them on ebay. I don't know if she was the only one who sold them, but I do know that she was one of them.

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by Lux

Unless the buyer takes steps to confirm that the distribution is approved by him then, by your own proclamation, you're "**** fans". If it's distributed without this knowledge, no amount of money given to him via concert tickets, albums purchases etc justifies stealing from him. If the buyer isn't willing to seek his approval then I think we need to start distinguishing between fans who see him as a machine for their listening pleasure and those who regard him as a person. I went into debt in order to see him in concert, he's certainly got value out of me as a fan but this is entirely different. If he wants you to hear it, he'll make that possible, if he doesn't then no matter how much we've given to him financially, no matter how good we decide it will be for his career, it still doesn't give us the right to steal. Despite how much I loved the demos we were exposed to last time, that should have never been possible. He was screwed over and with that in mind, it would have been better had we never been exposed to them. If this is at all similar then I don't blame the buyer quite the same as the seller, but the buyer (assuming they distribute) must take some responsibility in screwing over the person they otherwise claim they idolise and care about.

Are you saying that you don't listen to the GOS demos? Beause I thought you did. Did you seek out Lindsey's permission to listen to them?
I'm not saying any of this is right and my suggestion would be if you feel so strongly against it maybe you should contact Lindsey's management to let them know this auction is happening. If they want to do something about it, then they can.

[David]

Originally Posted by Kelly

I thought there was an auction for cassettes on ebay several years ago that was stopped for awhile and eventually the guy got the auction through? Is that wrong? I always assumed, maybe incorrectly, that the person who purchased the cassettes, transferred them and put them up for free download. similar to what Nancy will do if she wins.

It's like with Stevie Nicks: different batches of songs come from different sources, in different ways. But the studio material that was gonne be his album at that point was not sold -- it was put up for everyone to grab online. Plus, a few months ago, Brian or Neil or somebody got the lossless version torrented. Unfortunately, I think those torrent sites shut down a few weeks later.

Most of us are probably somewhat split on this whole issue, which is really a couple of issues all in one: Should you infringe on an artist's copyright? Should you buy unreleased material that you yourself get for free? What if you pay some source for it ... is it ethical to recoup your outlay?

I hope everyone would at least agree that you're a big jerk & of no use to anyone if you just download stuff that's free online (file-sharing or Web sites) & then turn around & start burning products out of it just to make some fast money on eBay. That's the absolute lowest of the barrel, & it includes scum who swipe photos off Web sites & then sell cheaply copied photo-paper duplications as "real" photos.

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by Lux

His management has been contacted. However unless the sale actually does stop, in which case we know his intent, we can't know whether he isn't concerned or has no power to stop the sale.

Yes, obviously I've listened to he demos, hence my opinion of them. The point was that I should never have been in any position to ever do so, none of us should have. They should not have been sold and distributed because it was directly against his wishes. Once it's up on the net then the game's up, which is why it should be stopped before then if it is indeed not what he wishes. If this is along those lines and it's possible to prevent it from occuring again, then we should aim more towards that than having him screwed over again, should we not?

Lindsey's management would have no problem stopping the sale if they contacted eBay. I can't see a reason why they couldn't halt it.

I'm well aware that you're saying that fans should take responsibility, however how do you know it was directly against his wishes? Is there an interview in which he says this?
I still don't feel guilty about it, I have to admit. If Lindsey wanted to do something about it he could. Look at Prince and Jeff Buckley's estate. You'll rarely find anything of Prince's on the net, because his management keeps a close eye on such things. Jeff Buckley's estate (run by his mother) threatens to sue anyone posting his unreleased stuff and I dare to you find something on any of his fan sites. It's possible to monitor this stuff and Buckley isn't worth a faction of what Lindsey is worth.

[David]

Originally Posted by Lux

His management has been contacted. However unless the sale actually does stop, in which case we know his intent, we can't know whether he isn't concerned or has no power to stop the sale.

Yes, obviously I've listened to he demos, hence my opinion of them. The point was that I should never have been in any position to ever do so, none of us should have. They should not have been sold and distributed because it was directly against his wishes. Once it's up on the net then the game's up, which is why it should be stopped before then if it is indeed not what he wishes. If this is along those lines and it's possible to prevent it from occuring again, then we should aim more towards that than having him screwed over again, should we not?

Lux, some people probably feel that they're being lectured to. I think it's fine to have one's own convictions on these issues -- we all do, probably -- but those convictions are going to vary, maybe widely in some cases. I think it's a good idea for this message board to remain a safe place for people to feel they can post about bootlegs & demos & similar stuff.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by David

Plus, a few months ago, Brian or Neil or somebody got the lossless version torrented. Unfortunately, I think those torrent sites shut down a few weeks later.

Actually it's still up and running at a new domain:
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=26917