Greenie live in February

[snoot]

Originally Posted by dansven

Mister, you're talking contradictions here!
You're suddenly saying it easy to identify Peter's playing, and especially onstage, because it's unique and everything. Wouldn't it be right to assume that Peter could do even better in the studio than onstage? After all, you emphasized how his concerts were ups and downs. In the studio on the other hand, he would have the chance to do several takes to get the best results. And didn't have to deal with the "stage fright" part of it.

Identification as such is always easier with visual enhancements to serve as guideposts. No way around that. Peter, in his modern, less than energized form, could employ lots of synthetic "tricks" to make up for certain deficits if he cared to, but he has never been into that kind of scene. Besides, it would be far more efficient for his handlers and production people to utilize others to carry part of the missing muscle. This kind of thing has gone on for as long as there have been recorded productions, when and as needed. It's what often goes on behind the scenes - and behind those sometimes missing credits - that comprises the unwritten story (just ask Jimmy "sessions" Page, before he hit the "big time"). Principals and producers alike know it's what can make or break a project, and sometimes their budgets.

Agreed!
Regarding the instrumental project, I have a clipping of an NME interview with Peter from '69-'70. He said that it would be an album of instrumentals, and that he already had 6 songs ready. I'm not sure if he meant written or recorded. I'm sure it would have been a classic album.

Indeed, indeed. I remember way-back-when pondering what might come of it. And waiting. And what did we ultimately get? Kiln House. LOL [not that I regretted it in the long run, I'm actually quite a fan of that production]

Peter "slipping"??? Now what is your definition of "slipping"? I'm sure he was having some mental issues (guilt, money etc...) during his last days with FMac. But his guitar playing didn't change ... didn't lose any energy... until after "The End Of The Game".

No sorry my friend. His guitar prowess had taken a hit well into '69, due to his mental state. Not when he was on, but when he wasn't in burn or drive mode. His mind was already beginning to fray at the edges by TPO. It was his consistency, and the discipline to push hard and forward, that were now becoming erratic, to say the least. By 1970, it was a real concern for the whole band. His substance indulgences led to the Munich incident, that incident wasn't created out of a vacuum, and didn't begin the downward spiral (accelerated it perhaps, compounded things no doubt, but it wasn't the genesis of his troubles, regardless of what you read from certain sources). Still, he had his moments, both on stage and in the studio, but never with the consistency of before.

Listen to his contributions to Memphis Slim and Toe Fat, which were recorded after he left FMac. Danny could never do that kind of stuff.

It would be unwise to underestimate what young Kirwan could do. There was a reason Peter Green chose him to be his right hand man and partner in crime (er, battle). In that regard, Greenie was no fool.

Peter's schizophrenia really manifested after The End Of The Game, with mental institutions etc. That's when I'd say Peter was "slipping".

No, by then it was full bore and the game was up, or more accurately (a la the man himself), it became the end of the game. There was also a reason Jeremy increasingly sought sanctuary away from the fold, beyond any star-power doubts he may have had. With what he had experienced, and what he saw going on around them, the COD must have looked like the perfect escape to much of the craziness that ultimately brought Green to his knees.

Do you have have any live bootleg recordings from '69-'70?

Don't need to rely on them. Used to see some of the concerts first hand back then. Glimpsed some other insider knowledge back in the day to boot.

Danny "carried the TPO project." How can you say something like that???
Give me some proof!
Really, to me this sound like a rash statement of a Kirwan fan.

Kirwan fan I am, but then I'm a Green fan, a Spencer fan, a Welch fan and a Westy fan. All were part of the great Mac attack guitar front. But the majority of what you hear on TPO is by the lad himself. Peter was counting on him, needed him to step up and cover the bases, and he delivered. Where Peter excelled, perhaps like never before, was in the stunning compositions he put together at that time, often born of outright pain and anguish. That, more than anything else, makes that production his shining star, arguably his apex. Beyond that, he counted on Danny to carry a huge amount of the studio weight. There's no shortage of PG interlaced throughout though, so there's little point in kicking up camp dust over this.

Your admiration for Danny is the big issue, isn't it? Let me again say that I really admire Danny, and not as a foil for Green.
However, if Danny had what Peter had, and according to you was rocketing and carrying the TPO project... then why didn't the guitar playing on Kiln House, Future Games and Bare Trees have that same magic as Then Play On?

Rocketing as a fully lit package, something Peter already was, and had been for some time. Both on the guitar end, and, as importantly, on the compositional front. Those two were destined for bigger and better things together, but they never quite got there when things went into a blackened orbit. I've said it before, when Peter went down, he took part of Danny with him (possibly a piece of Jeremy as well). That bittersweet synthesis was tied together in damn near cosmic ways, and thus the parallels with even their respective demises.

There's plenty of sweet licks from DK on the subsequent projects, it's just he had less fuel in his tank - less desire in driving things over the top - when PG was out of the loop. Who was there to rev him up, or keep his feet planted when his own insecurities kicked in? As good as Spencer and Welch were, and as well as they worked with him in crafting those mid era releases, they weren't Green in Kirwan's eyes, the one who motivated him like none other (even if it bordered on a love-hate relationship at times).

Sure I can!! But why don't you give me YOUR percentage first??? Instead of telling me I haven't got a clue.

Are you saying your ears might deceive you? You wouldn't be alone.

[dansven]

Snoot ...... now I get it!!! I understand you're posting this stuff just for fun! Your posts are hilarious!!!

Either that, or you're the one who's "slipping" ... into Kirwan obsession..

Originally Posted by snoot

His guitar prowess had taken a hit well into '69, due to his mental state.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by snoot

Don't need to rely on them. Used to see some of the concerts first hand back then. Glimpsed some other insider knowledge back in the day to boot.

No, you don't need them because they would ruin your Kirwan illusion!!!
And I assume you don't have the Toe Fat lp og the Memphis Slim lp either..... so basically: You don't know what you're talking about!

Originally Posted by snoot

But the majority of what you hear on TPO is by the lad(...)

YES!!! YES!!!! There you go again!!!!



..... I've asked for proof earlier, and I ask again! Anything!!!...other than your wild imagination, of course.

Originally Posted by snoot

Are you saying your ears might deceive you? You wouldn't be alone.

Not at all. But it's just stupid to go on discussing... anything I'd say would be answered with something like: "Sorry my friend, but DK did the majority..."
You're the one who ought to start giving your percentage!
I've asked for some references ...... you've given me none.

[snoot]

Someday you'll learn the full story. Don't lose sleep over it. Ciao-ski m8.

[dansven]

Originally Posted by snoot

Someday you'll learn the full story. Don't lose sleep over it. Ciao-ski m8.

Hey Snoot!

Here's the latest:
In fact neither Danny nor Peter played on TPO. They hired Rod Stewart to do the guitar solos. Frank Sinatra and Ed Sullivan did the background vocals. John McVie was the only band member to play on the album. He played bass guitar and sang lead vocals, and he also wrote all the songs.


Drums? See, there aren't any on the album. What you hear is just some studio magic thing.



By the way, it's a well known fact that Danny teamed up with John Mayall, and the couple were busy writing and recording Beatles' "Abbey Road" album in 1969, while the Fab Four were in jail.


That same year Danny wrote the soundtrack to "The Bridges of Madison County", 'cause he had the ability of time travels.

[JonsonP]

Wow, Danny was some seriously talented guy, no way PG could compete with that...

[dino]

Originally Posted by JonsonP

Wow, Danny was some seriously talented guy, no way PG could compete with that...

Whoa, I must check out the soundtrack to the cheesy Clint Eastwood movie.
I take your word for it, Daniel.

[snoot]

Never said he couldn't play. He was jamming like a firebrand right thru End Of The Game. But sorry to bust precious bubbles, his mind had already taken a hit into '69. What do you think most of his TPO songs were cast from? The beginning of the unraveling - and Peter was aware of it, at least partially, you can hear the anguish and frustration clearly setting in. It makes for much of the dark and even intriguing pastel that TPO is. It only got worse into 1970 and beyond, but the heavy drug indulgence went back earlier, with LSD entering the picture with the band's introduction to the Dead and Bear while on tour stateside. [There is even a connection to the Mac riding shotgun in their signature anthem Truckin']. He wasn't the pillar he once was in the studio by TPO either. Thought you boys knew more about the Green God than you're letting onto.

PS. Be careful in taking Mick's word or recollections on all things Mac as gospel truth. At times it's a convenient menagerie of how he chooses to paint or revisit the past, subject to the tricks of time and space. Fleetwood has always been selective (look no further than who he deems selectively "worthy" of HOF consideration), and there are clearly some faulty memory spikes in the works. We all have 'em to some extent, so I don't fault him completely as he is often put under the spotlight in that regard, and what he shoots from the hip a lot of times ends up in print - without the ability to edit thereafter. Green was kind to turn the amount of weight he did to Kirwan for the TPO project as Mick suggests, but he also had little choice by then, not if he wanted to complete that project with any realistic hopes of meeting the production budgets and certain contractual deadlines. Peter also didn't go south at Munich "just like that" [with the snap of his fingers] as Mick conveniently contends, that affair was a long time in the making. If you don't know that by now, you need to start digging for better answers.

I'd suggest being cognizant about pointing fingers on "obsessing" here too. I see lots of shades of green in this forum in that regard. A good percentage of its borders on blind faith, from folks who don't even trail back to those turbulent days, and now hope to glimpse that haze and whirlwind with the clarity of psychics.

EDIT: Good points made by Evan, but sadly Peter had overplayed his hand on the substance end of things while fronting the Mac, and there's no way to turn back the clock once your cup fill'eth and overflows in that regard.