Is Lindsey Overdoing It?

CarneVaca · #1 06-02-2003, 12:59 PM

Lindsey's fingerpicking is second to none in the rock/pop world. But is he overdoing it a bit on SYW? Is his approach to Red Rover and Say Goodbye, for instance, too over the top?

seteca · #2 06-02-2003, 02:12 PM

I think it's great, not really OTT at all. The fingerpicked chord changes in the verses of Say Goodbye are beautiful, and quite simple to play. The chorus is much more tricky, but ok after a bit of practice. For LB this song must have been a piece of cake!

Red Rover is a totally different story though...haha....I've had a lot of trouble trying to get my head around some of his interviews where he's described the approach he took in recording the song. I think the fact that he said in rehearsals they were trying to get 4 guitarists to play different parts in perfect time (or else the song would fall apart) sums up how musically complex the song is. I think if he (or anyone else for that matter!) ever tried to do a "one man, one guitar" version of the song, it would require a total musical makeover...i.e. a la Big Love. The way it stands now, I wouldn't even know where to begin if I wanted to play it on my own and make it sound anything like the CD...I think that would be physically impossible. However, as a studio masterpiece...it's still a great song, and extremely original.

He's a master of fingerpicking and a great producer.....so, hey, if ya got it, flaunt it!lol!

seteca · #3 06-02-2003, 02:41 PM

I didn't realise this was a moved topic from Chit Chat to here when I first replied, so here's what I posted there. I think it's a very interesting topic.

Quote:

Originally posted by Anthony
Don't get me wrong. Lindsey shows a talent that far exceeds people like Eddie Van Halen or Clapton, but my question was do you think he put too many notes into the songs. I think it took away from the songs. That's my opinion and I was only asking for yours.
All the other Fleetwood Mac albums have always shown a balance of talents. "Say you Will" seems to say look at me I can play really fast too. Buy me!

I've posted in reply to the new version of this thread in the LB forum, but here's a quick reply to this aswell:

That's a very, haha, interesting comment to make..."LB shows a talent that far exceeds people like Eddie Van Halen or Clapton". Are you a guitarist Anthony? I'm just asking because comparing LB to VH or EC is like comparing apples to oranges or grapes, in my opinion. Their styles are extremely different and I think it's just impossible to say that X is better than Y who is better than Z. The only thing those three have in common is that they are all phenomenal guitarists. Just my opinion though.

Answering your question, yea, I think SYW is definitely the most guitar-heavy FM album, but it's not LB trying to "outshine" the rest of the band by any means. The reason for it is two-fold: there's no Christine, and Stevie doesn't play anything, so suddenly the guitar becomes VERY obvious. Secondly, remember that this was originally meant to be an LB solo album, with which he had intended to go down the "solo Big Love" route instrumentally i.e. use many layers of guitar/Travis picking to play what would otherwise have to be played by drums/bass/keyboards. I don't think it would have been a good idea to throw those songs away and tone down the guitar just because it became a Fleetwood Mac project. In my opinion the album (despite having a lot of guitar) still allows plenty of room for one to see the amazing talents of the other 3 members of the band. Almost all (i.e. all but one!) of SN's songs on SYW are absolutely amazing, and LB's guitar has only made them even more so. The same can be said about the ever-fantastic rhythm section of JM and MF with regards to both LB's and SN's songs.

CarneVaca · #4 06-02-2003, 03:32 PM

Seteca, I agree that comparing Lindsey to those two other guys is apples and oranges.

Lindsey truly seems to be in a category of his own. He's mentioned Scotty Moore occasionally as an influence, but his style seems to be truly his own. This of course is not surprising for someone who takes inspiration simultaneously from Radiohead and Bach.

stefan · #5 06-02-2003, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Lindsey's fingerpicking is second to none in the rock/pop world. But is he overdoing it a bit on SYW? Is his approach to Red Rover and Say Goodbye, for instance, too over the top?

No

sodascouts · #6 06-02-2003, 05:43 PM

Perhaps he is showing off a bit (a la "Here Comes the Sun" from NYE 2001) but I don't think it's gratuitous. I adore "Red Rover" and appreciate and enjoy his elaborately complex approach on SYW.

There is one area where I think LB "overdoes it" - that doggie-paddle thing that he does after he climaxes on his guitar solos live. What the...?!

wondergirl9847 · #7 06-02-2003, 06:34 PM

YEAH!!!!!! WOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Lindsey is a ROCK STAR...so why not PLAY GUITAR like a ROCK STAR!!!!!!

I don't think he's overdoing anything and seteca's right about the guitar moving to the forefront with the keys missing. People who like the mellow, California...i.e Rumours sound are in for a BIG CHANGE and not everybody welcomes that. Oh well...their loss.

Anyways...when Led Zep or whoever do a crazy nutsos guitar solo, are people complainin...probably not.

Lindsey's doggie paddlin...I'ver read....is an AMAZING SIGHT TO BEHOLD and my eyes cannot WAIT to behold it!!!!!! So what, he beats the guitar to a pulp, bloodies his fingers, breaks strings...GO LINDSEY!!!! WOOOOOOOOO!!!!! *holding up lighter* It's about TIME he got to show off and go crazy!! If HE is enjoying himself, I say...YOU GO BOYEEE!!!!

RED ROVER is GREATNESS....AMAZING....PHENOMINAL and so are his Come and Murrow solos! He's underrated enough as it is...and if people wanna pee or go for food, THEY are the ones missing out on the GREATNESS of Lindsey...my eyes aren't leaving him until he leaves the stage.

BlueGrass · #8 06-02-2003, 06:42 PM

Lindsey many times has talked about how Red Rover was recorded. He said parts were sped up, and part were slowed down. If you listen to the song 100,000,000 times like I have, you can pick out which guitar parts were sped up, and then slowed down at the same time. It's really interesting and I've never heard about that before.

shackin'up · #9 06-03-2003, 05:31 AM

Yes, I think he is going over the top, but it brings him on the other side of that mountain in his approach to songwriting. The diction, flow and rythm of the melodies, in combination with his lifelong search for counterpoints/parts, could never have been reached in songs like RR and Say goodbye without going over that top...

Is there anyone outthere who understands what the heck I mean with this?

gerald

buckmacnicks · #10 06-03-2003, 06:04 AM

Hi Gerald,

Yes I really understand what you mean! Lindsey´s manic guitar artistry is really out of this world! He´s wielding that guitar like a wizard holding a magic wand! It´s absolutely amazing and I can never get enough of it. He has climbed a mountain and has come down the other side with all new skills to let enjoy us hardcore fans!

I definitely wish I will get to see him later this or early next year here in Holland, after all it´s been 23 long years since the Tusk tour concert in Rotterdam, June 1980 when he was last here playing. Too bad I didn´t get to see him then, I still regret it to this day, the band was at their peak then. Oh well I guess I was too young back in 1980, only ten!

Greetz,

Marcel.

CarneVaca · #11 06-03-2003, 08:32 AM

What strikes me about Red Rover is that Lindsey is playing the studio as much as he is playing the guitar. And as we have found out, the song cannot be reproduced live.

So at what point does truly playing the guitar step into the realm of studio trickery? And when it happens, should it still be considered truly playing the guitar?

strandinthewind · #12 06-03-2003, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CarneVaca
What strikes me about Red Rover is that Lindsey is playing the studio as much as he is playing the guitar. And as we have found out, the song cannot be reproduced live.

So at what point does truly playing the guitar step into the realm of studio trickery? And when it happens, should it still be considered truly playing the guitar?

I was thinking the same thing when I heard a lot of SYW. I mean that any person can even dream up the guitars and most other instruments on SYW is greatness in and of itself. My hat is off to him for that alone.

But, to be able to reproduce it live is trickier. It makes me think of the inability of the "five" to reproduce Stevie's very complex studio Sara as well as Gypsy. Yet, those songs come off okay musically if not often great "live" even in the scaled down versions. Note: the complex layering of vocals, esp. in Sara, is also a problem live - but that is another thread!!

But, then from what I understand Red Rover and, perhaps, Murrow are so complex that unless he did them "unplugged" a la Big Love, they would not translate well. But then again, Say Goodbye is great in concert. So, I tend to think that although he loves to use the studio gadgets for all they are worth, he also seems to be able to reproduce that same sound in one form or another.

I hope that made sense!

sodascouts · #13 06-03-2003, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CarneVaca

So at what point does truly playing the guitar step into the realm of studio trickery? And when it happens, should it still be considered truly playing the guitar?

I've thought about this, too. I guess it depends on what you mean when you're asking about the guitar parts in songs - if you're referring to what is technically played on a guitar, that would cover both manipulated and natural gutair parts. If you're referring to the ones that are not manipulated in any way, that's another thing.

Does it take away from Lindsey's prestige as a guitarist that so many of his guitar parts on SYW are manipulated in some way?

CarneVaca · #14 06-04-2003, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sodascouts
Does it take away from Lindsey's prestige as a guitarist that so many of his guitar parts on SYW are manipulated in some way?

I don't think so. You just start thinking in terms of his genius as a studio wiz. He's innovative. What he asked Rick Turner to do with his nylon-string Chet Atkins guitars was a bit of a technical breakthrough in the guitar world.

So he's an innovator and mad genius of sorts. And I think that tends to detract from his guitar playing outside our circle. Remember how we all get frustrated when he doesn't make the best-of lists for guitarists? It may be that all the studio gimmickry has hurt the overall perception of him as a guitarist.

seteca · #15 06-04-2003, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sodascouts
Does it take away from Lindsey's prestige as a guitarist that so many of his guitar parts on SYW are manipulated in some way?

Very interesting topic. I don't think the fact that so many of the SYW guitar parts are manipulated takes any prestige away from LB, but only because he has given some incredible live performances. If he had never performed, for example, "Big Love" or "NGBA" live, people would wonder just how much of the great guitaring on his albums is due to him and how much is due to machines. In such a case (where a guitarist produces brilliant parts in the studio but fails to reproduce them live, or produce live alternate versions which are just as good or better) that does take a lot of prestige from that person as a guitarist, but not as a musician. If somebody can take simple guitar recordings and manipulate them using many machines in the studio to make them sound like a fantastic piece of music, then that person is a very talented musician, regardless of how good a guitarist he is.

When it comes to these "best guitarists" lists, what annoys me is that they usually just name those people who have famous guitar solos, or even worse, people who are simply famous. There is no mention of a single famous classical guitarist, even though their technical abililty and fluidity far exceeds that of many, if not everyone, on these lists.

On a list of say, 100 greatest non-classical guitarists, I think LB should be on it, and at a very good position, because of his ability as an absolute genius fingerpicking guitarist and those songs which are a direct result of his style (e.g. NGBA, Big Love, Say Goodbye). LB's "electric solos" are great (e.g. ISA, Come, TITN, Murrow) but they're nothing special (and I'm talking purely technically here, not emotionally) when compared to the solos of others, and don't really merit a very high position on such lists.