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  #271  
Old 02-05-2021, 09:29 AM
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BigAl84 BigAl84 is offline
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Actually, people like myself can look at the big picture and realize that ALL of their careers in 1996 were not exactly blasting into orbit.

Again, for the last time...my point was Stevie definitely benefited greatly from the Dance reunion. It didn't need the knee jerk "but lindsey...but but but" crap argument that is so stupidly tired at this point. It's a pretty basic concept. She was one of the biggest faces of the band between 75-90, of course she would get a huge boost from the reunion more so than John Mcvie...or even Christine.

There's no need to go down all these dumb tangents about album charts and then grammatical nitpicking because I said singles instead of albums.

And I also never said her career was in the tank, I believe you're the first person to state it that way in this thread. I just pointed out that the year before she was performing off of a semi truck in st pete beach and a year later she was in sold out arenas with Fleetwood Mac. She's never returned to playing flat bed trucks since!

Yet again, not a personal jab at Stevie...just a basic observation that had nothing to do with a comparison to Lindsey Buckingham or anyone else.

And using the term "people like me" just proves the bias that you bring to the table.
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  #272  
Old 02-05-2021, 09:46 AM
UnwindedDreams UnwindedDreams is offline
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As you say, Stevie's career wasn't in the tank. She was asked to give songs to major motion pictures in the 90s. I'm not sure how Somebody Stand By Me worked though because Sheryl wrote the song.

Did Stevie ask Lindsey to join Twisted? I know she felt she had to redo it in 2014
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  #273  
Old 02-05-2021, 03:04 PM
bombaysaffires bombaysaffires is offline
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As you say, Stevie's career wasn't in the tank. She was asked to give songs to major motion pictures in the 90s. I'm not sure how Somebody Stand By Me worked though because Sheryl wrote the song.

Did Stevie ask Lindsey to join Twisted? I know she felt she had to redo it in 2014
she asked him to bail her out with it, because no one could figure out how to make her demo into a viable, releasable song. Same again a few years later with Soldier's Angel after Dave slaved over it and couldn't get it right. Tom (her favorite 'truth teller') flat out said he worked on any number of Stevie songs over the years of her solo career trying to figure out how to produce them, and then Lindsey came in and said, do x, y, z and Tom would say to himself, 'yes, of course!! he's right!!" His words, not mine. Stevie has continued to turn to Lindsey to bail her out forever, despite her public statements. He likely deserves producing credits somewhere on all of her solo work. Certainly many many of the songs on Bella Donna benefitted from his work on them and the polished demos he did with her on them which are recreated almost identically on Bella Donna (certainly not from her songwriting demos). Even stuff that didn't show up until WH or long after were old songs he'd worked on over the years (eg Sorcerer etc)

Her re-do of it sucks, btw.
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  #274  
Old 02-05-2021, 03:49 PM
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Again, for the last time...my point was Stevie definitely benefited greatly from the Dance reunion.
My opinion is that Stevie benefited the most creatively from the reunion among the three songwriters. I don’t think Timespace or Street Angel is quite as interesting as Lindsey’s work on his third album in 1992 or the songs he made a few years later with Mick, or as lovely as the songs Chris wrote for Behind the Mask or Time. Stevie was in a bit of a creative rut in the years preceding the Mac reunion. She admitted it a dozen times, too. Don Was and others had already told her to get back to writing when she booked her 1996 shows, and you would think those scaled-back shows would be great opportunities to sing something new, but aside from “Twisted,” she did not. She and Lindsey both could use an occasional push to strike out in new directions and forge something fresh. His recent online thing was just a bunch of his classics. He took the Stevie Nicks approach: keep shoveling the tried and true at everyone.

But the arguing over “viability” — who was more “viable” — is all about commerce, not creativity. So boring! Stevie has always had the commercial edge over her bandmates. She has not always had the creative edge over them. Sometimes I think that the trajectory of her career has obstructed her growth as an artist. I do like her and I wish it were otherwise. She perhaps isn’t that sort of animal.

Consider her songs on Buckingham Nicks and then compare them with her work on Rumours or Tusk (four and six years later, respectively). Enormous growth in vision, personal voice, scope, and style! Think of how beautifully elliptical and sly her writing is on “Dreams” or how vividly she paints passion on “Sara.” Nothing on Buckingham Nicks points to such achievements. Just lovely stuff that opened up all sorts of new possibilities for her as a songwriter and singer. Now try to imagine any other four- or six-year period in which she achieved similar growth. I can’t think of anything . . . I think fame spoiled her. In a way, her “viability” undermined her work. Is her market status really something to glorify decade after decade?
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  #275  
Old 02-05-2021, 05:17 PM
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she asked him to bail her out with it, because no one could figure out how to make her demo into a viable, releasable song. Same again a few years later with Soldier's Angel after Dave slaved over it and couldn't get it right.
God, enough of the Lindsey messiah crap. “Lindsey saved..,” “Lindsey bailed out..,” etc.

This is exactly why I talk about sales and viability. Because when you factor those in, and that’s all that really matters to Fleetwood Mac, it becomes clear that Lindsey was never in a position to save or bail out anyone. I mean, we’re debating this on a thread about Mike Campbell.

In 1996, Fleetwood Mac was being offered insane amounts of money to do a reunion. “Twisted” was a test run between the three previously warring factions. That’s all. And, Stevie didn’t especially like how it turned out. She released the original demo in 1998 (and the finished demo of Sweet Girl), and recut the song in 2014.

As for “Soldier’s Angel” and all of the solo songs Lindsey had previously worked on at some point, how many of those were hit singles? How many of those were career game changers for Stevie vs. just album tracks? I’m sure her solo career would have tanked without the amazing things Lindsey did with “Think About It.
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  #276  
Old 02-05-2021, 05:30 PM
jbrownsjr jbrownsjr is offline
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And, Stevie didn’t especially like how it turned out. t.
She ain't the only one.
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  #277  
Old 02-05-2021, 05:42 PM
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But the arguing over “viability” — who was more “viable” — is all about commerce, not creativity. So boring!
I don’t disagree with most of what you said, but you can’t have one without the other with a band at the level of Fleetwood Mac.

Put it a different way: people around here express the sentiment that Fleetwood Mac was so desperate by 1995 that they needed Lindsey to bail them out. How so? As you mentioned, Christine wrote lovely songs for Behind the Mask and Time, and even more so on the box set songs. So, the core three, the only ones who matter in the Time equation, still had their creativity in tact. So, they didn’t necessarily need Lindsey to bail them out creatively.

So, how else would he have bailed them out? Commercially? That where the viability and sales come into play, because he wasn’t in a position to bail anyone out on his name. Charity begins at home.
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  #278  
Old 02-06-2021, 02:45 AM
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Honestly, I hadn’t been here for a few weeks after my last post and this thread and possibly this fandom is mirroring the toxic cesspool that the band is. It’s ridiculous to try and weigh the respective involvement of everyone. Stevie is the most marketable, commercial, identifiable part of the band. I don’t think anyone really questions that. But there is value in the five of them together, and the attempts to make that happen after 1987 were/are an attempt to recapture the frenzy of Rumours. They obviously were able to do a successful tour in 2018 without Lindsey and many tours without Christine, but it’s the five together that is the apex of what I enjoy about them.

It’s the arguing over who matters and who contributed and the petty sniping I hate the most. I don’t regret cutting off my involvement in the band endeavors after Lindsey was fired. I did enjoy trying to figure out the timeline of how it happened and to piece it together from the clues we have. But ultimately it doesn’t matter. At this point, I hope they don’t reunite. I was able to believe that they were in it for something other than money in 1997 until 2018. Now it’s clear that’s really what binds them together, and the act they sold us was just to make more money. .

For me, there’s no point in debating who is most valuable or marketable. They have all made a lot of money — much of it selling us a love or camaraderie that was pretty fake as far as I can tell — and they can all make more. Maybe that’s a damper on the thread, admittedly, but what is the point in warring over who matters most in a band that has decided that money matters most of all?
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  #279  
Old 02-06-2021, 11:04 AM
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I don’t disagree with most of what you said, but you can’t have one without the other with a band at the level of Fleetwood Mac.

Put it a different way: people around here express the sentiment that Fleetwood Mac was so desperate by 1995 that they needed Lindsey to bail them out. How so? As you mentioned, Christine wrote lovely songs for Behind the Mask and Time, and even more so on the box set songs. So, the core three, the only ones who matter in the Time equation, still had their creativity in tact. So, they didn’t necessarily need Lindsey to bail them out creatively.

So, how else would he have bailed them out? Commercially? That where the viability and sales come into play, because he wasn’t in a position to bail anyone out on his name. Charity begins at home.

Steeeeeeeeve!!! Duh... Tango had to of sold way more than behind the mask. I thought that was the gold standard of artistic success. Change of heart eh?
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  #280  
Old 02-06-2021, 11:14 AM
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Steve I get the feeling that your wet dream Fleetwood Mac tour would involve Stevie nicks and literally anyone else to play the rest. It could be Stevie Nicks & The Pips but with the Fleetwood Mac name attached to it. You would argue for days it’s a relevant Fleetwood Mac project. LOLOLOlOL
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  #281  
Old 02-06-2021, 11:24 AM
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My opinion is that Stevie benefited the most creatively from the reunion among the three songwriters. I don’t think Timespace or Street Angel is quite as interesting as Lindsey’s work on his third album in 1992 or the songs he made a few years later with Mick, or as lovely as the songs Chris wrote for Behind the Mask or Time. Stevie was in a bit of a creative rut in the years preceding the Mac reunion. She admitted it a dozen times, too. Don Was and others had already told her to get back to writing when she booked her 1996 shows, and you would think those scaled-back shows would be great opportunities to sing something new, but aside from “Twisted,” she did not. She and Lindsey both could use an occasional push to strike out in new directions and forge something fresh. His recent online thing was just a bunch of his classics. He took the Stevie Nicks approach: keep shoveling the tried and true at everyone.

But the arguing over “viability” — who was more “viable” — is all about commerce, not creativity. So boring! Stevie has always had the commercial edge over her bandmates. She has not always had the creative edge over them. Sometimes I think that the trajectory of her career has obstructed her growth as an artist. I do like her and I wish it were otherwise. She perhaps isn’t that sort of animal.

Consider her songs on Buckingham Nicks and then compare them with her work on Rumours or Tusk (four and six years later, respectively). Enormous growth in vision, personal voice, scope, and style! Think of how beautifully elliptical and sly her writing is on “Dreams” or how vividly she paints passion on “Sara.” Nothing on Buckingham Nicks points to such achievements. Just lovely stuff that opened up all sorts of new possibilities for her as a songwriter and singer. Now try to imagine any other four- or six-year period in which she achieved similar growth. I can’t think of anything . . . I think fame spoiled her. In a way, her “viability” undermined her work. Is her market status really something to glorify decade after decade?
I think that was so well said, David. I wouldn’t disagree with any of it. I just think it’s absolute hogwash to flat out state that she needed the reunion less than any of them. Technically none of them really “needed” anything. Maybe some reconciliation and a boatload of cash were the fortunate byproduct of a big reunion and helped nudge it along.

But the premise that Nicks was doing just fine and well on her way to a comeback and The Dance had nothing to do with it...I don’t buy it. Like you said, clearly there was a rut and it wasn’t a dirty secret.
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  #282  
Old 02-06-2021, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveMacD View Post
I don’t disagree with most of what you said, but you can’t have one without the other with a band at the level of Fleetwood Mac.

Put it a different way: people around here express the sentiment that Fleetwood Mac was so desperate by 1995 that they needed Lindsey to bail them out. How so? As you mentioned, Christine wrote lovely songs for Behind the Mask and Time, and even more so on the box set songs. So, the core three, the only ones who matter in the Time equation, still had their creativity in tact. So, they didn’t necessarily need Lindsey to bail them out creatively.

So, how else would he have bailed them out? Commercially? That where the viability and sales come into play, because he wasn’t in a position to bail anyone out on his name. Charity begins at home.
I don’t get it. Yesterday you were comparing how a Stevie single charted just as poorly as Lindsey’s Go Insane to show they were both in a similar state of decline...

But now you’re siding with the artistic merit of Behind The Mask and Time over the completely obvious fact that Tango was a blockbuster because it involved the original 5.

When you want to attack Lindsey you dive right into sales. When you’re defending Stevie or Chris it’s all about art suddenly.
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  #283  
Old 02-06-2021, 11:35 AM
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Steve I get the feeling that your wet dream Fleetwood Mac tour would involve Stevie nicks and literally anyone else to play the rest. It could be Stevie Nicks & The Pips but with the Fleetwood Mac name attached to it. You would argue for days it’s a relevant Fleetwood Mac project. LOLOLOlOL
Ummm...You have seen my signature, right?

My fandom is with the core three.

Right now, I’d like to see the three with Neil Finn and Rick Vito and I’d prefer to see them in theaters.

However, looking at it from their perspective, Fleetwood Mac was their lives. Their band survived all kinds of tragedies and traumas, and was playing arenas over 50 years later. There has to be some level of pride/ego trip in that for them.
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  #284  
Old 02-06-2021, 12:28 PM
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Ummm...You have seen my signature, right?

My fandom is with the core three.

Right now, I’d like to see the three with Neil Finn and Rick Vito and I’d prefer to see them in theaters.

However, looking at it from their perspective, Fleetwood Mac was their lives. Their band survived all kinds of tragedies and traumas, and was playing arenas over 50 years later. There has to be some level of pride/ego trip in that for them.
Well sh*t...put the cone on my head, no I honestly never noticed. LMAO. #oops

That kind of puts everything in perspective now doesn’t it.
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  #285  
Old 02-06-2021, 12:59 PM
UnwindedDreams UnwindedDreams is offline
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Ummm...You have seen my signature, right?

My fandom is with the core three.

Right now, I’d like to see the three with Neil Finn and Rick Vito and I’d prefer to see them in theaters.
I once saw Lindsey in the signature!

I'd rather just see Rick with the three. Amphitheater would be fine for me.

Just thinking, I'm not sure Neil would do a whole tour with Rick. They did a few songs on stage for the Green celebration.

But from his social media, it seems like Rick was a Trump guy and I know Neil wants none of that around. Neil got off social media because of MAGA hate.
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