WAS SAY YOU WILL A BOMB? Please Read

[David A]

Was SYW a bomb?

It’s something I have been pondering for some time. I am usually all about numbers, and it’s hard for me to admit, but I think SYW sales wise may be a bomb. Here is the thing, I have always been able to make arguments with people about sales, etc. and say “well, it didn’t sell” etc. , and usually FM I don’t need to defend it much, but I have to say, SYW has not even gone platinum, and its hard if someone said it WAS a bomb to defend it. The only argument I can see that is valid is that it did DEBUT at #3 on the Charts which is impressive, but then it fell off quickly and had no legs. The Eagles new album is what I think SYW could have been SALES WISE I mean, where it debuts high on the charts (which it did) but had legs and stayed on the charts and sold XXX million copies. The Eagles new album I THINK has sold 2-4 million copies and I just wish SYW could have said the same. I tend to bash the POST LB FM albums like Behind The Mask, but you know what, sadly, and I DON’T Know it is a fact, but I think BTM may have sold almost or more than SYW which is pretty sad, because in my opinion, BTM is total crap and a complete embarrassment, where as SYW is a pretty good record.

The point of this thread, was SYW a bomb? And I am talking pure sales, I mean, going INTO SYW, FM Was considered a solid bet to sell, look at the Dance and even the Best OF as example, but it seems that SYW was just a total bomb, and I hope that FM don’t end up having to play local fairs like Hall & Oates, Rick Springfield (even though his last album did real well) or Styx.

But, usually weak sales are the 1st sign that maybe their ABILITY to sell records has gone down.

I love FM, but the sales of SYW always leave me feeling sad

[mylittledemon]

It depends on how you define success. Buckingham himself always uses this argument. "Tusk" was a bomb compared to say, Rumours wasn't it? But that doesn't mean it was a sh*t record. I am disappointed in general with Say You Will, but I do love some of the songs on the record. It could've sold another half a million copies but... would that make the material any better? Would that have made the band get back into the studio faster to make another album? I doubt it.

[elle]

others on this board know the numbers, including the money put in and money got out of syw much better than i do, but i'll try to give you what i know:

it opened at #3, and went gold. by now it probably sold close to a million copies, but i don't think it was ever officially certified platinum. that's not bad, but after watching DR doc, i suspect the band and the label expected more. of course this is the time when the music industry is/has been in flux, but... there were always probably just a few bands/artists having huge sales, and if you look that's the case now too. again, i know nothing about music industry and how it operates, others on this board have much more knowledge and info.

also, i agree with mylittledemon - would the quality of the album be any better if it sold more? no. but i wouldn't mind hearing songs like come, red rover, and murrow on the classic rock radio - which would be a possibility, maybe, if the album sold better.

EDIT: btw, why are you yelling?

[louielouie2000]

Say You Will debuted at #3 on the album charts here in the US, and sold about 800,000 copies to the best of my knowledge. Reprise/Warner expected the album to sell 2-3 Million by their own admission. At one point in the Destiny Rules documentary, Lindsey said he "didn't care if the album sold only 800,000 copies" if he could make the kind of album he wanted to make. So to me that says that 800,000 copies is a dismal failure to him.

I'd guess that the sales of SYW were viewed as a failure to those in Fleetwood Mac, and to Warner/Reprise as well. Not only that, Lindsey, Stevie, and Mick have all voiced that they weren't happy with the finished product of the album, either. Mick and Lindsey have referred to it as disjointed; Stevie's railed against Lindsey's production; they've all pointed at a need for an outside producer if another Mac album were ever to be made.

So the question is, was the album a bomb? I view a bomb to be a dismal failure, which SYW and it's tour really weren't. The album made Gold, nearly Platinum status, and it had some downright progressive material on it. The tour was 18 months long, and pretty darn successful. But was the album a flop? I'd have to say so. It barely got any radio play, it sank off the charts very quickly, received mixed reviews from critics, and is at best a footnote in Mac history.

[Silver Springs]

I'm probably going to be the naive and non materialistic voice "of the fan" here. But to me, music is never a bomb as long as it reaches people. It doesn't matter how many, but as long as there's somebody who is being affected for the better by the music, the lyrics, whatever. At the end of the day, music in its root form wasn't about sales figures or money made. It was about telling a story, reaching hearts. And in that sense, Say You Will could never be a failure. Speaking on a personal level, it was my gateway album. And I would probably have lost interest in my only greatest hits album if I hadn't have gotten my hands on this album when I did and realised how much the band has to offer. If you single each song out, then they work. They're beautifully crafted, lyrically sublime and works of art in their own right. Maybe they don't work together as a whole, but you don't listen to the album as a whole, do you? You listen to each song individually and come to your own judgements, so why judge how it was put together and how disjointed it is so harshly?

My heart was affected for the better by this album, so it was a success. It reached somebody. That was the point.

[Artemis]

I'd say to the casual observer that it wasn't a bomb. It hit #3 in the US and it hit the top ten in the UK (at least according to Wikipedia ) for a band in it's late 50s, having lost it's strongest singer (Christine) and having two singers with voices not what they once were, it's quite an achievement.

[SuperFleetwood]

yeah what bee said! I also had to add that I really like running threw the gardens and destiny rule and even thrown down!!!!! but for some reason I wasnt really getting intill murrow turnes in his grave its kind of a weird song, and the chorus is kinda confusing! but that's what I think! so to put my story in conclusion, it was a bomb! that was the second album that I got of the mac, before I went crazy and collecting stuff!

Originally Posted by Silver Springs

I'm probably going to be the naive and non materialistic voice "of the fan" here. But to me, music is never a bomb as long as it reaches people. It doesn't matter how many, but as long as there's somebody who is being affected for the better by the music, the lyrics, whatever. At the end of the day, music in its root form wasn't about sales figures or money made. It was about telling a story, reaching hearts. And in that sense, Say You Will could never be a failure. Speaking on a personal level, it was my gateway album. And I would probably have lost interest in my only greatest hits album if I hadn't have gotten my hands on this album when I did and realised how much the band has to offer. If you single each song out, then they work. They're beautifully crafted, lyrically sublime and works of art in their own right. Maybe they don't work together as a whole, but you don't listen to the album as a whole, do you? You listen to each song individually and come to your own judgements, so why judge how it was put together and how disjointed it is so harshly?

My heart was affected for the better by this album, so it was a success. It reached somebody. That was the point.

[elle]

Originally Posted by Silver Springs

I'm probably going to be the naive and non materialistic voice "of the fan" here. But to me, music is never a bomb as long as it reaches people. ...
My heart was affected for the better by this album, so it was a success. It reached somebody. That was the point.

Nicely said!

[elle]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

Lindsey, Stevie, and Mick have all voiced that they weren't happy with the finished product of the album, either. Mick and Lindsey have referred to it as disjointed; Stevie's railed against Lindsey's production; they've all pointed at a need for an outside producer if another Mac album were ever to be made.material on it. The tour was 18 months long, and pretty darn successful.

however, in the same breath Lindsey said that who cares if SYW was disjointed, Tusk was too, and that he considers Tusk his favorite FM album. if it was up to Lindsey i get a feeling he would not go with an outside producer, but he said over and over that at this point it's more of a question of a band politics (i think this really means that Stevie would never do it if they didn't have outside producer). imho, i think they need some balance musically and not just for the sake of the band politics, so if they pick a producer who can bring them that plus fit with both L and S, it will work better.

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

It barely got any radio play, it sank off the charts very quickly, received mixed reviews from critics, and is at best a footnote in Mac history.

see i don't think that will necessarily be the case. this sounds like something that may have been said for a Tusk album at the time it was out, and now Tusk keeps getting mentioned everywhere as the album that showcases the mac as cool and weird, instead of just mega-selling band that doesn't have much artistically to offer. i think SYW has some great songs (mostly lindsey's) that will stand the test of time when someone looks over FM legacy.

[David]

Originally Posted by elle

see i don't think that will necessarily be the case. this sounds like something that may have been said for a Tusk album at the time it was out, and now Tusk keeps getting mentioned everywhere as the album that showcases the mac as cool and weird, instead of just mega-selling band that doesn't have much artistically to offer. i think SYW has some great songs (mostly lindsey's) that will stand the test of time when someone looks over FM legacy.

I guess that's possible, elle. Tusk, after all, did grow in stature & appeal through the years. Say You Will might do that, too.

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

Say You Will debuted at #3 on the album charts here in the US,.

I guess any Fleetwood Mac album would debut at top ten chart because it is Fleetwood Mac, a legend band. Although the era of million records sales is gone, it was a good beginning.

But it didn't turn into a blockbuster because, ironic.. it's Fleetwood Mac. I mean it's a 70s/80s band. In this decade of Beyonce, Eminem, etc.. hard for a legend band. Stevie explains it very good when they were discussing about releasing a double cd album in the Destiny Rules video.

[OutsideTheRain]

I think the problems with the current lineup is just isn't commercially viable enough to sell those kind of numbers. Christine had the most commercial success in the band.
I feel the album would have done better if they had convinced Christine to come in and do keyboards and backing vocals. Not necessarily have her writing and touring, but can you imagine a song like Thrown Down, Say You Will or Peacekeeper with her contributions!?!? Would have been huge.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by Villavic

But it didn't turn into a blockbuster because, ironic.. it's Fleetwood Mac. I mean it's a 70s/80s band. In this decade of Beyonce, Eminem, etc.. hard for a legend band. Stevie explains it very good when they were discussing about releasing a double cd album in the Destiny Rules video.

Tell that to the Eagles...they showed FM, who was what.

[sjpdg]

Was "SYW" a bomb? I don't think so. Million album sales for a 70/80's band (as the B/N incarnation of FM is) don't happen often. Material is an issue. A "double" CD was certainly ambitious and an interesting idea, but over all, I would agree with the band, that it was somewhat disjointed. There are tracks that are clearly Lindsey solo material and tracks that are clearly Stevie solo material. They don't meld into the "FM" that us fans are used to, even with Stevie and Lindsey at the forefront. Christine is definitely a missing element and any contributions she did make prior to the albums release should have been played up, not down. There is an alternate version of "Steal Your Heart Away" where you definitely hear Christine more than on the CD version. Why not play that up to the fan base? "She's not touring with us, but she layed down some great tracks for the album!" would definitely have been a selling point, yes? I mean, I bought it anyway, but had there been more Christine heard, perhaps even some tracks where she sang lead, (and had it not been a "double" album) the album would have sold better, I'd almost guarantee it.

Honestly, there are times I think the band was just over-reaching in an attempt to make up for Christine not recording or touring on "SYW". Overall, it's not a horrible album. It's no "Penguin" (IMHO the absolute worst FM album ever!!), that's for sure!!

As Lindsey has mentioned numerous times, "Rumours" was a 'moment'. It happened, they achieved unbelievable success from it, but it may never happen again. What is important now is, does FM still produce music that its fan base likes, appreciates and buys? I would say the answer is "Yes!"

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by sjpdg

Honestly, there are times I think the band was just over-reaching in an attempt to make up for Christine not recording or touring on "SYW". Overall, it's not a horrible album. It's no "Penguin" (IMHO the absolute worst FM album ever!!), that's for sure!!

I've never really thought about it in that manner, but you're pretty spot on with that observation. At the time, I was extraordinarily excited to see what Buckingham and Nicks would sound like within the confines of Fleetwood Mac without Christine's very pedestrian pop influence. What ended up happening was akin to 2 siblings being left at home alone for the first time while the overbearing mother runs her errands . Stevie and Lindsey were running around screaming at the top of their lungs, pulling each others pig tails and pushing each other down the stairs . I believe it was Stevie who long said that Christine is/was the glue of Fleetwood Mac. And that comment finally made sense to me following SYW. She was the bridging factor between the very manic Buckingham and Nicks. Not only did she make them behave, but there was a middle ground commonality factor in her music.

I am often very hard on SYW, but I feel it necessary to reiterate I think it has some fantastic music on it. I think Stevie's songs such as Illume and Destiny Rules were her best Mac contributions since Gypsy. I think Lindsey's envelope pushing songs like Murrow and Red Rover are positively brilliant. In many ways, some of the tracks on SYW still sound very progressive today. You can't say the same about songs from Stevie's Trouble In Shangri La, for instance (which sounds very dated to me now). My biggest gripe with SYW was it needed to be pared down. There was such a breadth and amount of material that the album just came across as a giant hot mess of battling egos. There was no balancing factor with Christine... who in my opinion bridged Stevie and Lindsey on Tusk, which is often compared to SYW.




PS: I have to disagree with you about Penguin! Yes, it had two of the most giant stinkers in Mac history: I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict, but it also had some truly stellar Christine McVie contributions .